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Yes I have a PhD, but in Geography and it means I have very little common sense and electrical stuff just is a dark art.
P20 and I are finalising T6 conversion phase 1 for the end of the winter and as part of it, we have decided to put a Clayton Lithium Power System (2500 W/100 Ah) in, in replacement for the traditional leisure battery on the recommendation of the converter. Part of the motivation is you can run the van ‘gas free’ with an induction hob.
I like the idea of the counter top hobs as then you can also cook outside when the weather allows to keep the bacon fat outside the van. I’ve been looking at the Lakeland units which are single ring and run from 200-2000W. The thing is I’d like to run two rings for stuff like curry + rice etc. If I run each hob on a max of 1000W if running at the same time, my understanding is this would work?
As far as I can tell, 2-ring induction hobs that have a max of 2500W and run off a 13A fuse are very rare. Thetford do make a camping specific one for integration into a unit, but is £650 😳
We also plan to run a Dometic compressor fridge but I could unplug this whilst using the hobs if needed. We will also have a 160 W solar panel.
Advice for an idiotic woman welcome... (don’t judge p20 , he’s working and I’ve been trying to work this out myself...!!)
If I run each hob on a max of 1000W if running at the same time, my understanding is this would work?
It depends whether the hobs have a variable power output (i.e if they do actually run at 1000W continuously, or if they run at 2000W for 50% of the time).
You realise that you've got just about half an hour's running for 2 x 1kW hobs before the battery is completely flat, don't you.
What's the motivation for gas free.
I stopped reading about those Clayton units when I saw the price.
I would corroborate what your converter is telling you with plenty of research. I have seen plenty of youtube creators selling the virtues of Lithium power and induction hobs, however for the most part they are in boats or A class motorhomes with acres of solar panels and a huge lithium battery bank.
There is a guy winter camping in a small van and he often uses a freestanding camping stove as his Lithium battery doesn't have enough juice to run his electric cooktop. In my eyes, that backup system is worse than a fixed gas installation.
I would go with an LPG bulk tank under the van and gas appliances. After the initial investment its practically loose change to use the gas for a week. If you have a serious aversion to carrying LPG, then look into diesel powered hobs, they are pricey but I doubt it would be more than a lithium battery setup.
Finally, space heating. Electric again will place a huge demand on your battery, you can go with gas or diesel to match the hob.
If you are still worried about LPG, I would guess (with no research whatsoever) that there is more risk with a high amperage battery setup. Carrying gas can't start a fire like an electrical short, it just makes an established fire more hazardous.
The initial investment for underslung tanks is considerably less* than those lithium units hence I asked them motivation.
*Based on having my own refillable lpg system so knowing it's cost and reading the cost of those lithium battery units.the one being looked at costing 2600+vat.
Personally you'd have to be fully radio rental - unless of course it's in an already fully electric powered faux green van .....however a t6 will never be green.
£2.6k...woooo! Thats a lot for 100amps plus a charger and inverter!
Lithium depth of discharge seems to be 80% = 80 Amps
I thought my batteries were pricey at £300 for x2 Trojan golf cart batteries, 225A and they can discharge to 80% as well so thats 180 usable amps.
P.S I've considered running an electric blanket from them but would never try heating or cooking from them 🙂
Don't forget the effects of cold on battery output either.
It's all a bit much eggs in one basket for me im afraid.
It depends whether the hobs have a variable power output (i.e if they do actually run at 1000W continuously, or if they run at 2000W for 50% of the time).
Ok this is a very good point which I need to look into.
What’s the motivation for gas free.
Sorry just to clarify, by gas free I mean we’d originally planned to run a 2-gas ring hob with a butane/propane cylinder. However I liked the idea of no naked flames inside the van, plus p20 previously got carbon monoxide poisoning (work incident). We weren’t going to go LPG as we have been warned it can be tricky to find outside the UK, and it seemed a lot to potentially just offer solely a cooking solution. We do plan to run a diesel heater.
P.S I’ve considered running an electric blanket from them but would never try heating or cooking from them
I have seen 3-Bridges Campers also regularly instal the LPS and a induction hob (often plus a microwave too!) in their conversions so had thought it was definitely an option, but maybe not so much.
£2.6k…woooo! Thats a lot for 100amps plus a charger and inverter!
Agreed though he is doing it for a very good price for us.
Been running a Safefill LPG bottle alongside of a Calorlite in the camper since the beginning of summer. Took it out to the Alps empty and had no problems filling it. In the UK we can fill it a most Morrisons for just under £7. Once we have emptied the Calorlite bottle will just run two of the Safefills.
Italy is the big nono for filling up lpg at petrol stations. It was all explained to me by the pump attendant near Milan whilst behind him a punter filled petrol into an empty coke bottle!
Where you planning to go that doesn't refil lpg. No issues in France. Infact the UK is one of the harder places. Many places outside Europe abroad will refil calor cans on the spot if you ask....large swathes of Africa and Ukraine I know.
I once got electrocuted at work. I still put electric in my van....unless p20s CO poisoning was down to an issue in his works camper van I fail to see how that's a reason to go gas free.
I'd go alcohol stove before I went electric stove.
A good reason to be gas free is that you can't take lpg on le Chunnel...
Gaslow. Refillable lpg. Available everywhere in the UK and Europe. You will need different connector's for different countries. It's relatively cheap to buy and very cheap to run. You can also use it for everything. Heating, cooking and the fridge.
To address some of your fears. Ignoring the fridge for a minute. Just turn the gas off when not in use. Smoke alarm and a carbon monoxide alarm are essential items in a motor home. Get the gaslow fitted by a registered fitter who's been in business for a long time with a good reputation. Plus get it pressure tested every year. Personally I don't like blown air heating. It's noisey and draws unnecessary electrical power. Truma S series heaters I think are the best. I'm a bit out of touch with the newer stuff. But the older heaters can be used without the fan. So they have no power draw. Basically they are similar to an oil filled radiator but run on gas. The only downside is they are expensive. But if you're a light sleeper it's money well spent over blown heating.
Fridges can be run off electric. But they require a lot of reserved power. They always seems to me to have too many draw backs. You can get a 3 way fridge and run it off the lpg. Personally I'm a bit of an old woman and I'm uncomfortable sleeping in a van with a fridge run off gas. I think people think they need a fridge when they actually don't. Drink red wine instead of cold beer and clog your arteries with full fat butter! In the UK you're never that far from a supermarket.
I installed one of these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10mm-Alde-bubble-test-leak-detector-narrowboat-barge-motorhome-cruiser-/173556956776
You can then check at anytime if you have a leak and sleep worry free!
Look at lpg fridges in boats.
You'll be surprised to learn that they often don't even vent to outside.
Mines vented to outside....and drop vented with the cooling fins vented too as it all just works as designed .+ More efficient
When we are off grid. Hobs, oven, fridge and barbeque are LPG bottles. Heating is diesel and the rest is battery with a big solar panel.
The one thing that annoys me is engines running till midnight and then starting them back up at 5.00am or running a generator most of the night.
Look at lpg fridges in boats.
I’m sure we had a dual fuel gas/12v fridge in the caravan when I was a child.
Our fridge is gas/12v/electric. Never run it on 12v as won't take the risk of flattening the batteries.
Heater is either diesel or electric.
In factory vans like yours 12v is normally only while the engine is running. To keep the fridge cold between campsites.
You can have lpg on the chunnel! I would join the motorhome fun forum they are an absolute fountain of knowledge for all things campervan/motorhome. Very techy stuff I've been learning heaps on there as just got our 1st van. We went with refillable lpg and solar panel.
Tracey's fridge is a 2/3 way which is not efficient on 12v. A compressor 12v fridge is fine if you have hookup or a reasonable solar panel.
LPG refilling stations are getting rarer so just needs a little forward planning in UK. Bear in mind if you are going to Europe on the summer, you will only be using gas for cooking and it will last for months and months.
Ok, thanks all. You have given us a lot to think about (again!). If we went LPG tank for cooking and fridge, any rough idea on installation costs? Thanks Tracey for the advice - looked at the Safefill - look good but think will take up too much space in our little van, compared to your motorhome.
Have a chat to the guys at the LPG shop. They were very informative when we were looking at all the options available.
https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/underslung-lpg-gas-tank-kit-for-motorhomes/
This is worth a read for the tunnel
https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/travelling-with-us/vehicles/fuel-types/
If it's factory wiring it won't run on 12v unless the engine is running. Even then it won't get as cold as it would on 240v or gas.
It's possible to run a fridge from 12v. But if you want to run it for longer than a couple of day's you need to have a very large battery bank or as you said have large solar panels and live in a hot country.
If you're not staying exclusively on campsites a 3 way fridge run on gas is the best way. But that all depends on how comfortable you are with that.
Most of the deaths in caravans and motorhomes which were caused by carbon monoxide poisoning were caused by old fashioned type water heaters which were left on 24/7. But if a fridge is leaking it can explode. I only mention this because the op appears to have concerns about the risks of gas.
the op appears to have concerns about the risks of gas
The OP suffers from a bit of anxiety and overthinks things... 😐
I’d not run a 3 way fridge these days. A 12v compressor fridge will happily run off a 180ah battery for about 4 days in the middle of a French summer. We have 200w of solar power and it easily keeps pace with the fridge’s power usage in the summer. 3 way gas fridges rely on being level to work and the 12v part is for keeping it cool whilst driving, not for stand alone use. So many are incorrectly specced.
We have an underslung LPG tank and it lasts us about 2 seasons for cooking, bbq point and occasional water heating via a Truma water heater. We have a carbon monoxide alarm in the van for peace of mind.
LPG tank is fine on Eurotunnel, just needs to be turned off for the crossing. LPG powered vehicles are not allowed however.
I’m not sure how a small capacity electrical system on a van could ever run an induction hob or microwave for many minutes when you do the math. Are they 12v or 240v?
We weren’t going to go LPG as we have been warned it can be tricky to find outside the UK, and it seemed a lot to potentially just offer solely a cooking solution. We do plan to run a diesel heater.
There's LPG that comes in refillable bottles (cylinders) that you take and exchange for full ones (e.g. Calor gas. Camping gaz, etc.) and bulk LPG that's sold in petrol stations where you refill a tank permanently installed in the van. Every country has its own version of the former - the only one that seems to cross borders is Camping Gaz, but it's horrendously expensive. The latter is pretty much universally available in Europe (but stations can be thinly spread) and is pretty cheap. An underslung tank kit costs about £400 plus fitting (E.g. Gas-It)
You can hedge your bets and get an LPG tank that fits in a normal gas locker so that you could change it for a refillable bottle if you ever got stuck. (That's what we did - we have a 6kg LPG tank in a locker inside the rear door of our 5.4m van. It could easily be replaced by a commercial refillable bottle if needed).
Are you considering having hot water? If so, gas is by far the easiest option for that.
We have a Planar diesel heater and it works well.
As above, no problem with LPG of either description on the Chunnel - it's just LPG powered vehicles that aren't allowed.
160W of solar keeps up with our small compressor fridge (a CRX50) from March to October in the UK (I never bothered switching the fridge off). If you can fit more, do so. It will give you very little from October to March though.
If you're considering having an inverter anyway, several people seem to be successful running a 240V fridge off an inverter, rather than running a 12V compressor fridge - they're much cheaper! The key seems to be an AAA efficiency rated fridge and a very good quality inverter (Victron or Sterling) that draws very low quiescent current. (The fridge compressor draws a large amount of current at startup and the inverter needs to stay on all the time).
motorhome fun forum they are an absolute fountain of knowledge for all things campervan/motorhome.
IMHO: Be wary of technical advice on MHF - there are a few posters who understand what they're talking about (one called Autorouter springs to mind), but they tend to be drowned out by very vocal and prolific posters who trot out all sorts of nonsense that becomes fact by repetition (and don't like being challenged on it) - It always reminds me of Acorn Antiques...
If you want technical info and advice on conversions, you can't beat the SBMCC, but you have to register before you can see it. Both forums will cost you £15 after you've had half a dozen posts.
Lithium batteries (LiFePO4) appear to offer advantages over the traditional lead-acid and their variants, but I'm not a convert, personally. Achieving the advantages seems to depend on incorporating them into a correctly designed system. That Clayton system may seem expensive, but at least it has been designed to work as a system (hopefully!) so you should be able to see a benefit.
If you get a good discount, the cost probably isn't too dissimilar to separate, decent quality battery to battery charger, mains hookup, mains charger, 2.5kW pure sine inverter, battery monitor and conventional traction batteries. Not sure I'd trust it yet though.
Good luck, and Happy Christmas! 🙂
I’d go alcohol stove before I went electric stove.
We have an alcohol stove and it’s an excellent little thing, I love it. It’s an Origo 3000 (sadly discontinued) and I didn’t want the hassle of fitting a gas system when un built our van.
110Ah battery and 100w solar panel will run our compressor fridge indefinitely in the summer and easily a couple of days of using the heating and fridge in the winter.
We tend to move around a lot so never really tested it for longer periods without running the engine.
Our next van I’m planning on doubling up in battery and solar power, but it’s probably not really needed.
A good reason to be gas free is that you can’t take lpg on le Chunnel…
You can't take an LPG fueled car but you can take gas bottles in a camper.
So many are incorrectly specced.
By specced incorrectly you mean fitted badly and people won't fit the right vents as it ruins their dub man and the lad wiring it up was a cowboy who didn't make it so the 12v can only Be on with ignition running ?
The level thing is a moot point. If the vans level enough to sleep and cook in then the fridge will work
How ever 3ways have their advantages in that they are silent which is apparently important in a tiny van -so said the couple next to use in their t5 at the puffer last year who woke up frozen because they couldn't run their eber through the night due to it sounding like a jet every time it kicked in.......
Bigger the van the more noise you can get away with....ie your further away from it. Would t like to sleep above my truma -but have no issues leaving it on the thermostat all night as the blowers at the other end of the van.....can't hear it .
By specced incorrectly you mean fitted badly and people won’t fit the right vents as it ruins their dub man and the lad wiring it up was a cowboy who didn’t make it so the 12v can only Be on with ignition running ?
No, I mean as in they are really only designed too run on 12v for the drive, they then should be switched to gas or plugged into 240v. They are generally shit on 12v only.
The level thing is a moot point. If the vans level enough to sleep and cook in then the fridge will work
.
Unless, say you've gone to watch LeTour and had to park on a ramp of a mountain all day and your fridge won't work 'cause it's not level, so all your food is knackered and your beer is warm. Compressor fridge will run perfectly at any angle.
How ever 3ways have their advantages in that they are silent which is apparently important in a tiny van -so said the couple next to use in their t5 at the puffer last year who woke up frozen because they couldn’t run their eber through the night due to it sounding like a jet every time it kicked in…….
How does the function of a 3 way fridge affect the heating of a van? compressor fridges don't make much noise, I sleep right by mine and it doesn't wake me up. I agree however that in a T5 sized van I wouldn't have an internal Eber. Ours used to be mounted external on the T5 and it was perfectly OK.
If your three way fridge works at any point on 12v other than ignition on .
It's been fitted by a cowboy.
Oh and noise is noise regardless of heating or cooling.
I feel we’re wandering from the OP’s question here but yes if a 3 way fridge is used the 12v should only work on ignition, but I’d not use one full stop given the choice.
Again, agreed. But all fridges hardly make any noise, not a reason to select an out of date style of appliance. ear plugs work well for sleeping in vans generally if you’re a light sleeper, then stick the Eber on to keep warm!
I wouldn’t use a 3 way fridge these days, I sleep with my head right next to our compressor fridge and it barely makes a noise.
In previous vans I definitely parked and camped in places that were at too much of an angle for the fridge to work on gas.
As for the noise of an Eber, when it first starts up it’s noisy for about 5 minutes but if you leave it on the thermostat overnight it’s just a quiet fan noise as it kicks back in. Ours is inside under the driver’s seat.
A good reason to be gas free is that you can’t take lpg on le Chunnel…
Underslung tanks are no problem if they're not powering the vehicle (source: i go on the chunnel lots). I have a 20L Gasit tank under our van - we basically refill it once a year! Well insulated van (we do have a gas heater (propex) but don't use it that often) with a compressor fridge + solar. My van has a blanking plate next to the diesel filler, so I just used it for the LPG filling point - never had a problem filling it in the UK or on the continent. If I were building the van again, i'd still get the underfloor tank, but i'd probably save some cash by getting one of the cheap chinese diesel heaters, which by all accounts seem to be as good as the ebers.
I would suggest you start with a really dull spreadsheet based on ohms law and work out all your volts, amps and watts in a methodical way. You can make assumptions about use and how much power you will use.
100 Ah is not a huge amount of power. Basic LED lights, a phone on charge and a compressor fridge could eat that in 3 days if you were somewhere warm.
Are you planning on adding solar to the system? It is a fairly simple and effective way to increase battery life and gives you some independence.
The Lithium single box solution looks neat, but is very expensive for what it is. Two leisure batteries to provide 220-250 Ah, a power supply system for both 12v and 240v, cabling, hook up, solar panel set up and fitting by a professional would cost you less and provide more.
Can you not just get a diesel generator?
I've found this site to be helpfull where electrics, batteries and all things on that side, motorhome wise.
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/
Sorry for the lack of replies. We went camping (and reinforced that we can’t wait to get our conversion done as taking wheels off the bikes to fit us and them into the van at 0430 on a windy Scottish night was both funny, but tiring 😆).
You’ve given us a lot to think about. Thank you. We will run a diesel heater and have knocked the induction hob on the head. When funds allow we will probably look at an underbody LPG tank (we can’t afford to do everything at once), but have managed on a camping stove for the last 15 years so that will do for a while longer. We will likely go for a portable 12V compressor fridge (something like the CFX 40) which gives us flexibility.
Are you planning on adding solar to the system?
Yes, a 160 W panel.
The reality is without shower, toilet and likely less than 10 l of water on board, we are going to have to move!
If you have a ‘traditional’ 100Ah lithium battery, how long do people find they take to charge from 20% to full when driving?
If you have a ‘traditional’ 100Ah lithium battery, how long do people find they take to charge from 20% to full when driving?
I guess you mean traditional lead acid as there’s not much traditional about a lithium set up.
If so, never let it get to 20% anyway as the battery will be bricked anything less than 50% charged is flat for a battery.
In answer to your question though, it will depend on the charging method. If you’re relying on a split load relay and spare alternator capacity it could take many many hours and the battery will never be fully charged properly. I use a Sterling Battery to Battery charger, which is a high amperage multi-stage charger, combined with the solar keeps the batteries fully charged and maintained quickly and without being hooked up when we get home. These type of chargers can only be used on wet lead batteries though.
If you have a ‘traditional’ 100Ah lithium battery, how long do people find they take to charge from 20% to full when driving?
I'm with @Blazin-saddles - Lithium batteries are at the bleeding edge of camper van technology IMHO.
If you *did* mean lithium (LiFePO4), one of their advantages is that the charge rate doesn't drop off as the battery fills up (as it does with all lead-acid batteries), so the charge time pretty much just depends on the charger.
The 30 amp Sterling battery-to-battery charger that I use (with lead-acid batteries) also has a LiFePO4 setting, and would be the sort of thing that I would think would be necessary to ensure that your batteries get fully charged. (If you used a split charge relay, the voltage drop in connecting leads would stop / delay your batteries getting a full charge.)
Many vehicles (transits, T5s, etc.) now come with 'smart alternators' which make a battery-to-battery charger essential for charging from the vehicle, whatever the battery type so this may be an expense that you have regardless.
So, assuming you had a 30A battery to battery charger fitted, and you needed to charge your 100AH lithium (LiFePO4) battery up from 20% (i.e. 80 amp hours required) it would take 80 / 30 = 2.6 hours driving. That's a *lot* quicker than would be needed for lead-acid.
You could possibly charge faster than this with a more powerful charger (maybe up to 100 amps for a 100AH battery), but you'd need to check the maximum charging rate for the battery you are considering. (Sterling also do a 60A B-B charger and Votronic (I think) do a 50A version).
One of the 'issues' with lithium batteries, especially the ones that just look like a car battery (without any external battery management connections) is that the internal electronics will suddenly switch the battery off when it has reached full charge which can cause havoc with external chargers (especially alternators). One of the advantages of the system you originally posted is that it is an integrated package where all these things should have been taken care of. (It includes a 70 amp B-B charger, btw.)
If you do go lithium, try and find someone who has a good history of installing systems using them. It seems a lot of van converters (professional and amateur) are just dropping lithium batteries in where they'd fit a lead-acid battery and coming unstuck. (Gadget John q.v.)
Thanks @tillydog - that is really useful reply.
I have also done the spreadsheet thing this morning to work out all the Ah/Watts we will be using. I am rapidly learning a lot!
I have also emailed Clayton to find out how the battery operates at cold temperatures, as they quote a -20 to 50 C range and I understand charging below OC is not a good idea in many circumstances. For us, this a serious consideration as we want to use it year round.
Honestly, if anything wants to know anything about sea level change (Yawn!) then I can repay the favours - hehe
I use a Ring RSCDC30 which does 30 amp battery to battery charging, and also has an MPPT solar charger in a relatively small box. Cheaper alternative to Sterling.