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Has anyone heard this one?
Apparently retired RAF pilots are getting paid up to £250k to train Chinese fighter pilots.
Doesn't sit well with me at all.
Although probably not possible, I would like something done to stop it.
Maybe someone should offer them £251k not to?
Could be said this is the ultimate representation of a free market economy.
Just playing devils advocate
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/18/raf-pilots-chinese-military-law-change-james-heappey
Ministers want to change the law to prevent former RAF pilots from training the Chinese military, amid reports at least 30 British personnel are believed to have taken advantage of “very generous” recruitment packages offered by the superpower.
Why shouldn’t they? Everyone else has earnt good money showing the Chinese how to do it so why not them?
In others news, I imagine we sell bombs to the Chinese too, that’s more interesting
In fact until recently we helped the Russians build bombs
Given we may soon be fighting air to air with them over Taiwan, training them seems rather short sighted......
Depends how much balls they have.
Train them wrong 😉
If I was one of those RAF pilots I'd be keeping back some of the best stuff anyway. If you're being paid for your information or expertise you rarely if ever tell someone everything you know, only enough of it at the time.
🤔 "everyone" presumably won't be able to train them in the [I]exact[/I] tactics that RAF pilots they'll potentially face will use.Why shouldn’t they? Everyone else has earnt good money showing the Chinese how to do it so why not them?
from the article:
very much this! I guess it's just never come up before?!But we should be surprised there’s nothing akin to the Official Secrets Act preventing this
I would like to see a list of countries the RAF afficialy assist with training, I expect there would be at least a few that most people would consider to be oppressive regimes among them.
Needs more detail about exactly what they're providing but I'm struggling to understand how it's not a contravention of the OSA. That has a clause around defence information covering:
- logistics, order of battle operations, state of readiness and training of UK forces
- weapons, stores and various other types of equipment
- defence policy & strategy and military planning & intelligence
and quite a few other provisions
Maybe the issue is the OSA's broad scope and may be difficult to apply without taking the cases through a court which might be why they're waiting on the new legislation.
But absolutely they should not being providing tactical or platform information to the Chinese and I'd be happy that they're prosecuted and imprisoned for doing so if they've been warned already under the OSA (or later when the new legislation comes into force).
I would like to see a list of countries the RAF afficialy assist with training, I expect there would be at least a few that most people would consider to be oppressive regimes among them.
https://www.raf.mod.uk/what-we-do/global-operations/
Im sure we have a couple of Crabs on this forum
How much reverse information are they providing back to HMG on Chinese fighter capability? Quid pro Quo.
This isn't anything new though, ex UK forces have been training various the armed services of countries with dubious human rights issues for decades. <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, China, Colombia, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Maldives, ****stan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Zimbabwe to name a few, just since 2018.</span>
Just look at any Sandhurst intake.
Nothing new.
We've been training the world's military for years. Even within our own military schools in the UK.
Here's a couple of more recent examples.
Oman, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait...
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-soldiers-train-dictators-troops-10142076
This isn’t anything new though, ex UK forces have been training various the armed services of countries with dubious human rights issues for decades
But the main issue here isn't that China is an authoritarian dictatorship with a record of human rights abuses (sadly there's lot of examples of that in the world) - it's that they are likely to be NATO's main adversary in the years/decades to come. Hopefully it's nothing more than continued friction but if there are hostilities in future you really don't want to have helped train up their armed forces.
A cousin did this in Oman when he 'officially' left the Army...
Must've been worth it as he fully retired after 2 years there.
Wasn't Idi Amin trained by the British Army?
A cousin did this in Oman
Oman are hardly a threat to the UK or NATO interests.
I believe no ones actually signed up...
The British Army was training the Ukrainian army in the latest weaponry a year before Russia invaded.
The UK has a lot of history of meddling with other countries politics and military.
That's why I find it laughable how the press went crazy with the thought that Russia was meddling in our political system.
Oman are hardly a threat to the UK or NATO interests.
Maybe not this week, in the big merry go around of friend or foe this could all change one day.
it’s that they are likely to be NATO’s main adversary in the years/decades to come.
Again this is absolutely nothing new.....
The best ways to deal with China is either be their best friend like the UK has with the ass kissing of America. Or do not give them your business.
I read years ago that it's China's long term plan to develop China to such an extent that they do not need the western markets to buy their stuff anymore. If we get to a point to where the bulk of our goods are made in china and they just shut the door to us then this could be a problem.
Again this is absolutely nothing new…..
Correct but they're an ever increasing threat, the only other nation in the same ballpark was/is Russia but we've all seen maybe that was overstated in a non-nuclear confrontation. China is different though, they have not just the size but also the capability (and that capability is improving rather than declining like Russia's). Their military technology might still be a generation or two behind in many areas but they have already have parity (with the US) in others - the last thing you want on top of that is to be giving them detailed knowledge of tactics and NATO capabilities.
Israel....
It's good business to arm and train both sides then move in and "help" clean up the mess after.
There was a story in the press (online & paper) around August that said trainee RAF fast jet pilots are having to wait months or even years to get in the air because of a shortage of instructors. EDIT OLDER STORY
Are the two stories related?
We got a memo about how the area around the excell arena was going to be restricted during an international arms expo. This was from the police! (one of our offices was within this zone)
So a private function and the whole area around it (both private and public) was going to be restricted to the public by the state controlled police. All so weapons could be sold.
This doesn't sit well with me. But has been the norm forever....
Are the two stories related?
Uk training has been handed over, like so much else, to the private sector and so is struggling against carefully written contracts. Will impact the pay available as well when the profit needs to be syphoned off.
I do like the outrage from some MPs and the demand that RAF personnel be banned from the jobs. Perhaps we should apply the same or higher standards to MPs employment.
It works both ways.
Ex-RAF know what they are teaching them (learn their weakness too), while the Chinese pilots know what to learn without falling into a trap.
I really doubt ex-RAF will teach them the "secrets".
Take the £250k ...
I believe no ones actually signed up…
something smells a bit odd about this story.
a kind of 'if you were thinking about doing this, it would be bad...' type thing.
I really doubt ex-RAF will teach them the “secrets”.
Take the £250k …
But then if it's freely available information why pay them £250k? OK that might be peanuts in the scheme of things but China obviously sees some value in specific knowledge the ex-RAF instructors can provide
I doubt it’s just RAF, but from all over. They do the same with airlines - you can’t buy experience, so they ship it in until they get there.
It works both ways.
Ex-RAF know what they are teaching them (learn their weakness too), while the Chinese pilots know what to learn without falling into a trap.
I really doubt ex-RAF will teach them the “secrets”.
Bollocks. This is a small minority greedily following the money.
OSA prevents them passing on specific information about UK defensive strategy and capability (which the Chinese almost certainly already know), but does not preclude teaching them *how* to fight effectively.
I'm a woke lefty snowflake but would quite happily scrap their British citizenship and any military pensions, and let them bugger off to China if that's what they so desire. Having just flown with a colleague who's ex-RAF, their opinion matches my own but was a bit blunter.
As far as I'm concerned their efforts directly and negatively affect the safety and security of my family and myself and it should be dealt with appropriately. If existing law doesn't cover this problem, it needs updating.
Why is training for fighting different from selling the weapons?
So, the Tories are bitching about free market economics? They really have lost any grip on reality and their own ethos...
Given the British government also trained ISIS and no doubt a number of terrorist groups when we decided they were freedom fighters instead then its a bit of a pot and kettle story. Our chums in the Middle East are hardly a bunch of angels but we happily sell them weapons and invite then to Sandhurst. I believe Mr Hussein and his government benefitted from the generosity of the UK military.
...and if you go back a bit further you've got Rolls Royce selling Nene jet engines to Russia, just as the cold war started which Russia reverse engineered to stick in the Mig15 which then played hell with American planes in Korea (I think).
Nowt new under the sun. (which doesn't mean its right, either)
This isn’t anything new though, ex UK forces have been training various the armed services of countries with dubious human rights issues for decades
Doesn't sit with me morally, but it's what ex military types have been doing for years.
Given the British government also trained ISIS
Source? We certainly have previous for training militia groups and 'freedom fighters' when politically expedient. The Taliban's predecessors, the Mujihideen being a good example, when they were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. But ISIS? Really? I'd be extremely surprised if there is any credible evidence that the UK government trained Daesh/IS/ISIS
Does seem to me to be a bit of a “look, squirrels!” From Elwood. Perhaps to distract from other problems?
The Saudis didn’t learn to use the weapons they’re slaughtering the people of the Yemen with, without the help of our government. Personally I find that more concerning than a few mercenary pilots…
Aren't these just what we used to call mercenaries?
Or traitors...
As far as I’m concerned their efforts directly and negatively affect the safety and security of my family and myself and it should be dealt with appropriately.
Shouldn't a comment about the Tories be on one of the political threads?