I'm hoping to organise a piss up in a brewery for my 40th in November!
Hope it works out or I'll never live it down haha
What i dont like is the “trial be social media” that goes on today.
like celebrities who have built their fame on twitter its the gamble you take that social media will be your downfall as well as your success. Brewdog is just another brewer, one with a very good marketing team who usually know exactly how to play the SM game. Of course some of those former people might be on the "letter list" and so now they are playing against equals at the SM game it could get messy for them. If its entirely unfounded the company will be able to claim its defamatory, potentially libellous and seek an interim interdict for its immediate removal. They have the resource to do that, it might not be the SM genius way to solve it but it certainly would show they vigorously denied it!
Similar to what others have said, when they first came out the crap written on the cans was enough to put me off and I didn't think the beer was all they thought it was. Luckily there's plenty of choice out there, we have a really good little brewery just down the road and I'm happy to pay a little more and support them.
Brewdog guy's LinkedIn post from yesterday..
Reminds me of that cleaners thread the other day with all the "working class roots" guff
Seems there’s a lot they marketed themselves as that isn’t true.
From what I know it wasn't in 2015 either
Nothing I've seen leads me to believe any of the marketing, the way they have managed to persuade people that they are something other than what they are looks more like a cult than a company that makes and sells beer
I wonder if he takes his £9.99 chair with him on all those private jet flights?
The chair doesn’t look like it’s had 14 years of regular use does it? And there’s no way I could do 14 days on one of those chairs let alone 14 years.
#chairgate lol
but the recurring story I got back was expect long hours and they want their pound of flesh.
Or another angle is they rightly expect a good level of performance for a decent salary and package. Shock horror! People don't like paying people to take the piss.
If you've built up your own business from nothing then you wouldn't be so tolerant of slackers.
I used to drink at their first bar when it opened in Aberdeen, they seemed like nice guys
They've made some pretty special beers, but lots of pretty average ones. The bars are generally pretty good places to drink at, and I've always found the staff in them to be really nice.
But the Brewers have always come across as a-holes of the highest order. Sadly unsurprising that growth has come at the expense of providing a positive experience for many staff. And even though they've apologised, they weren't going to. D***s.
People don’t like paying people to take the piss.
Conversely folk don't like having the piss taken out of them by employers.
One of these is true and I've no doubt which one.
Conversely folk don’t like having the piss taken out of them by employers.
One of these is true and I’ve no doubt which one.
Oh of course...employees never take the piss!! Get out of town. This holier than though expectation that employees are all good and all employers take the piss is a bit niece. I don't know what's really going on inside Brewdog as much as you do...we are both equally ignorant, but to suggest either side is 100% innocent and the other side 100% is guilty is ridiculous and foolish.
I have no doubt the owners of brewdog are pretty shrewed people and take no crap of anyone and come down hard on anyone taking the piss. You don't succeed without being shrewd. The reality is some people will be taking the piss and guess what...those who tend to cry and tell are those that have taken the piss...been found out and dealt with and are looking for revenge. It's a common pattern. I see it all the time in the large company I work for and have had the misfortune to have dealt with people like that and it is hard to deal with them with all the rules and laws in place...it often takes years for a company to dismiss an incompetent employee...fine if you are a large company that can take the expense but not great if you are a smaller employer that relies more in individuals contribution. People are coached by unions and other organisations to 'maximise 'the value of the benefits they are afforded by their employees - i.e. take the piss.
The benefits are fine, no problem, but there is an expectation of a fair trade from the employees of putting in a fair days honest graft and not exploiting the benefits. If this is what's going on then good riddance to them and the employers have every right to deal with them in accordance with the legal contract of employment. If the employers are exploiting their workforce then they deserve to feel the full weight of the law too. But the bottom line is we don't know.
I don’t know what’s really going on inside Brewdog as much as you do…we are both equally ignorant,
You'd do well to read back. I know a **** load more about stuff that's gone on than you do via first hand account. I have no reason at all to doubt the accuracy of what I've been told either.
guess what…those who tend to cry and tell are those that have taken the piss…been found out and dealt with and are looking for revenge.
Yes. My friend took the piss by virtue of being female and got sexually assaulted at work for her trouble. Then told to just deal with it because its a bar and that's what happens.
I see it all the time in the large company I work for and have had the misfortune to have dealt with people like that and it is hard to deal with them with all the rules and laws in place…it often takes years for a company to dismiss an incompetent employee
That piss taker has since run her own bar, successfully. She's been making more money than pre-lockdown. Pretty good poster child for incompetence eh?
But the bottom line is we don’t know.
Again, you presume too much.
Nice to see where your prejudices lie though.
But the bottom line is we don’t know.
And yet....
What a weird post.
FWIW, there's been a big, public #metoo movement within the craft beer industry over the last couple of months. Sexual harassment seems pretty endemic in the industry. A lot of people have had to quit after stuff that's been publicly announced by the women involved.
Not related to Brewdog in particular, but just for some context.
www.eater.com/platform/amp/2021/5/19/22444336/sexism-abuse-harassment-craft-beer-brewing-industry-ratmagnet
This thread and the allegations have been enlightening.
Maybe (quite obviously) I'm naïve, but I wouldn't have looked at the craft beer (god I hate that term) industry as the first place to find bullying, sexual assault and general malpractice. Why am I surprised - I guess because going to work in it or running a firm in it seems to be almost a career choice people have made with a bit of passion rather than fallen into or for the cutthroat me first personality types (sales people, I'm looking at you). And I'd have hoped people with those sort of mindsets cared a little more for the people they worked alongside or who worked for them. I wonder if it is indeed standout (when compared to a bazillion other industries) or just the consumer base for said products are more likely to care making it more news worthy. Whether you like it or not buying 'craft' beer is a want not a need and whilst taste is clearly important the brand identity is also at least subconsciously playing an important part in the drinking experience. That is not to say I don't believe it or it is not a problem - kind of the opposite - is there even more shit going down in hundreds of other industries that just goes unnoticed/unreported. Depressing.
As I recall (and I may be wrong) these shares are shares in name only with no rights or guarantee of ever getting your money back
They are a lower class of share, as is common with crowdfunding.
I’ve already got my money back (actual money, in the bank - it paid for my last bike). But I bought into round 1, you’re right that people buying into rounds 3ish or later are unlikely to see a return.
WRT what I can do as a shareholder, I’m not sure - I suspect there are enough class A shares to override any decision by crowdfunders. There are moves afoot by more active holders to get something on the AGM agenda, which I will support.
Acknowledging there’s potentially something wrong here (and as obviously described in other personal examples of criminal behaviour at the workplace above) and that needs to be separated from what follows. A lot of the discussion above is essentially describing employee relations and the employer - employee paradigm. By its very nature, at the end of the day, it’s a transaction. Transactions are rarely equal.
People don’t like paying people to take the piss.
Conversely folk don’t like having the piss taken out of them by employers.
One of these is true and I’ve no doubt which one.
Surely both are true. And getting it right is a proper tightrope walk.
Rule#1 applies on both sides.
Not a fan of the beer but that aside for me the issues are two fold: firstly there’s a clear culture of bullying. Secondly, the chummy we’re all in this together corporate message (including green washing) is clearly rubbish.
The public and private face don’t match. Regardless of whether you think it’s naive to assume they would Brewdogs claims that they are different are clearly baseless fantasies.
People are coached by unions and other organisations to ‘maximise ‘the value of the benefits they are afforded by their employees – i.e. take the piss.
I hope that you don't have a job that involves interactions with other people. You sound like a right bundle of joy
That £10.00 plastic chair story is straight out of some "Hey I'm just like you" handbook they must give out at the college they train people to be arseholes. "Ignore all those private jets, I sit on a plastic chair all day..." Does anyone ever fall for that crap?
Surely both are true. And getting it right is a proper tightrope walk.
Rule#1 applies on both sides.
Yes you're right in the wider context (God knows I've worked with enough of them), I just meant in this specific case.
I don’t really have a problem with the marketing being untrue - it’s marketing, believe it at your own peril. Bullying and harassment is a different matter entirely though.
I suspect there are enough class A shares to override any decision by crowdfunders.
I wouldn't assume the Class A holders are sitting saying "good on the guys at the top we thought you were treating your staff too well"... those shareholders want to sell and maximise profit - so will want the company to have positive customer relationships and make the best use of its staff without unnecessary disputes etc.
…it often takes years for a company to dismiss an incompetent employee…fine if you are a large company that can take the expense but not great if you are a smaller employer that relies more in individuals contribution.
It really doesn't. in the first two years (surely time to spot someone who doesn't have a clue) you can do it almost instantly! Even after that competent management and HR can do it pretty swiftly. Our rule of thumb is to allow a performance improvement plan to run for 1 month for each year of service the person has had. So its only taking "years" if they've been with the company for decades, in which case you should have dealt with slackers donkeys ago, or you probably owe them some help to understand and sort their problems - especially if you are a company like Brewdog who market themselves as being caring. IME most people who are might be perceived to take the piss are actually sitting under an incompetent manager who doesn't know how to get the best our of people or in a (part of the) organisation where internal communications are so poor that expectations are not clear.
People are coached by … other organisations to ‘maximise ‘the value of the benefits they are afforded by their employees – i.e. take the piss.
Probably the CBI & IOD
“Directors’ pay at the UK’s biggest quoted companies has risen 14 per cent over the past year – more than six times the increase in overall average earnings – as company bosses enjoyed a windfall from long-term incentive plans.”
That £10.00 plastic chair story is straight out of some “Hey I’m just like you” handbook they must give out at the college they train people to be arseholes. “Ignore all those private jets, I sit on a plastic chair all day…” Does anyone ever fall for that crap?
Just another day's output of the propaganda firehose.
Incidentally,
illusions of grandeur
is quite a classic.
TBH the whole things smells a bit, but IME many small businesses have personalities like these in charge - thick skin, big ego, low regard for minions welfare.
TBH the whole things smells a bit, but IME many small businesses have personalities like these in charge – thick skin, big ego, low regard for minions welfare.
And that's why many businesses change their senior leadership when they get big.
Setting up a cheeky startup requires different skills and behaviours than running a large multinational.
I never liked their holier-than-thou attitude. I would have less of an issue buying beer from someone who is a bit of a knobber, if they didn't also tell me how much of a better human than me they are.
I also used to quite like Punk IPA until they changed it and dropped it from 5.6% to 5.4%. Not even £2 for a pint can will tempt me now.
I did like the quote on the first page about being the "Blink 182 of craft beer", though.
Very true.
I've seen that in the software industry, with CEOs being replaced by the board as the focus has been made to change from innovation to financial health, or back. CEOs seem to come in three flavours: Marketing focussed, technology/innovation focussed or financial focus. It seems that you pick one the fits your company best at the time and the spirit of the company follows that lead.
My last place had a marketing focussed CEO (that loved new technology) for a looooong time and it was heavily focussed on growth, so pushed a lot of new things that were being developed. That changed when he got replaced by a financial-focussed bloke that was the former CFO. Then it became a very heavily revenue-focussed business, still innovating, but more looking at retaining licensees, shareholder EPS, sales and operating profit (and how that could be improved). They started having a lot of layoffs after that. I left.
I'm a sucker for 'craft beer', I like the taste of a ridiculously strong IPA and I usually enjoy all the brightly coloured silly marketing nonsense on the cans (of any brand, not just Brewdog).
That said I'll equally happily down a 4-pack of Goose IPA from the Co-Op for about 1/4 of the price.
FWIW, there’s been a big, public #metoo movement within the craft beer industry over the last couple of months. Sexual harassment seems pretty endemic in the industry. A lot of people have had to quit after stuff that’s been publicly announced by the women involved.
Just posting to say what's been said above, i.e. that I find the above equally surprising and depressing. The only question I would have is is this really endemic within the craft beer industry or is there just a much bigger problem with toxic workplaces in general and it just happens to be 'craft beer' and Brewdog in particular's time under the spotlight right now?
And that’s why many businesses change their senior leadership when they get big.
Setting up a cheeky startup requires different skills and behaviours than running a large multinational.
Absolutely this.
To a lesser extent, it goes for the rest of the staff, too.
Universally reported experiences from my classmates who were career changing and worked in other industries before is that the drinks production industry is worse than any other industry they've worked in previously
My last place had a marketing focussed CEO (that loved new technology) for a looooong time and it was heavily focussed on growth, so pushed a lot of new things that were being developed. That changed when he got replaced by a financial-focussed bloke that was the former CFO. Then it became a very heavily revenue-focussed business, still innovating, but more looking at retaining licensees, shareholder EPS, sales and operating profit (and how that could be improved). They started having a lot of layoffs after that. I left.
Thats exactly where we are now, with our opinion of the person who appears to be in charge as "a person that doesn't want to pay people". I know for a fact that 100% of one of the teams in our company is looking for new jobs, with 25% of them left already.
how many teams are in the company? one?
I also work for a VC backed company and they are only interested in their roi rather than the business itself
I also work for a VC backed company and they are only interested in their roi rather than the business itself
that's well summed up in this clip, from the very funny series Silicon Valley. The bit where Richard realises that now they've got a load of VC capital in, everything is going to shit and there's nothing he can do about it:
I've always been suspicious of Brewdog, ever since the 'plucky little guys against the evil corporate giants' thing, which didn't turn out to be quite what Brewdog were claiming, if I remember. But basically, it's all about greed, isn't it? Like everywhere else. The owners want loads of wealth and comfort, and aren't too bothered about those they exploit in order to get it. As for the beer itself; style over substance. So many better options.
So many better options
Belgium’s entire ale industry for starters.
I’ve seen that in the software industry, with CEOs being replaced by the board as the focus has been made to change from innovation to financial health, or back.
Sign of a maturing industry perhaps where profits naturally become squeezed?
I'm always sceptical of firms that parade phrases such as employmer of choice, and have fun days etc. Office games etc Theres a big firm where I used to live that had all this...
Permanently recruiting
Staff turn over was mental.
Firms that make millions and instead of paying bonuses etc they go for a night out that costs 50 quid a head as that's cheaper.
Maybe it's my naturally cynicism.
Pay people well and dont take the piss. And on the otherside of the coin do your job dont take the piss.
I’m always sceptical of firms that parade phrases such as employmer of choice, and have fun days etc. Office games etc Theres a big firm where I used to live that had all this…
Any kind of compulsion (explicit or implicit) in 'fun'/social activities is a big red flag to me. Good firms to work for don't get too much in your business.
Looks interesting !
<DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A CYCLIST -- AND DO YOU HAVE ONE SUPER-MEMORABLE RIDE YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT?
I like to say I use my brain, more than my body, to impact the sport of cycling. That said I have gotten really into downhill mountain biking this summer in Utah and absolutely love my Canyon ebike, especially with mountain altitudes and my sea level lungs.
But I will no longer buy their beer.
Not just the staff getting the brewdog experience
Silly, everyone knows that “solid gold can” really equals “hollow goldy looking can”. At least they pulled it back with amazing PR..... oh
Not just the staff getting the brewdog experience
Yes, they seem to be on a PR roll currently, just not in the direction they were intending...
There's a good Willy ****a joke in there somewhere.
goldy looking can
Is that a comedy rap tribute band?
What a bunch of shysters.
Last time I buy their beer.
and that worth £15,000 actually means 'in our opinion, but we don't value our opinion sufficiently that we'd consider buying it off you for that'
I just love the 'we stand by the £15k valuation because of the workmanship etc'. Yes, an exquisite rendition of a beer can in a base metal is definitely worth £15k.
Where there's gold, there's brass and all that 🙂
The Times is reporting today the the self “ethical” CEO took interest free loans from the firm, used the proceeds to buy property at no cost to himself and then leased the properties back to Brewdog at market rates.
The article also references other clever accounting treatments for things like private jets.
It’s a good job for the CEO most of Brewdog’s investors don’t have any voting rights and a salutary lesson in why buying shares without voting rights is a bad idea.
Don't forget the lucky winners' 10 grand in shares which you can't currently trade. And a 'VIP Tour' of the brewery...
Started selling off individual properties on the £7 (8?) million pound estate they have just bought.
goldy looking can
Is that a comedy rap tribute band?
More of a Welsh rap / Krautrock fusion thing.
It’s a good job for the CEO most of Brewdog’s investors don’t have any voting rights and a salutary lesson in why buying shares without voting rights is a bad idea.
However they are expecting to be floated later this year aren't they? Although all the recent press might change that
Wow. That second one comes with it's own shit caravan to go with the shit interior. All for a bargain 200k.
What a bunch of shysters.
Last time I buy their beer
Yeah, this my dilemma right now, I do like a great many of their beers, have no issues with colourful/garish branding, and have enjoyed going to their bar in St Andrews as a family, tasty foid, good service etc.
Thankfully my local shop seems to carry a decent range of Overton brewery stuff, always a good variety of seriously punchy IPAs to keep me entertained...
^^^ properties for sale - and conveniently close to a soon to be dualled A9.
Didn't know they'd bought the Kinrara estate. All a bit obfuscated if it's the company or individuals.
Frying pan and fire for the locals, eh.
Whenever I see any of these 'funkily' packaged cans of 'beer' I walk on by. I enjoy the graphics and have a smug chuckle at the people who would fall for it.
A triumph of marketing over substance. I wouldn't consider paying the money they want for an old school coca cola sized 330ml can of that.
I like a drink, more than I should. I like a nice ice cold 500ml can of Oranjeboom 8.5.
Far more taste, a lot more bang for your buck and a lot less bullshit.
Other opinions are available.
I particularly enjoyed the Squirrel punk Ipa video, it led me down a rabbit hole...
Brewdog to me feels a bit like monster or red bull.
I only drink non-alcoholic beer, I'm going to stop buying Brewdog (just ordered to crate of Big Drop to try) now except in a pub if they only is choice between Becks Blue and a non alcoholic Brewdog then my morals will go out the window.
The Times is reporting today the the self “ethical” CEO took interest free loans from the firm,
Was in the FT last week. Basically they sold themselves to a Venture Capital firm and need an IPO for return. The leasing the jets from the CEO's 'company' was a joke. I've bought the beer occasionally, and liked the IPAs, but done now. I won't be alone.
Expect some backpedaling as the VCs worry about their exit strategy.
I only drink non-alcoholic beer
https://www.tinyrebel.co.uk/browse/c-BEERS-5/c-Non-Alc-58
Much better than Big Drop.
goldy looking can
More of a Welsh rap / Krautrock fusion thing.
I wish this was a thing.
Basically they sold themselves to a Venture Capital firm and need an IPO for return.
They issued and sold an equivalent of 20% for a £200 million injection, which suggested an insane valuation of £1 billion for a company that struggles to makes a significant profit. It never made sense to me but reading further the VC has an 18% preference which means the other shareholders need to do a deal quickly before they are massively diluted.
That can prize story is really taking the piss!
Yep - Brewdog have lost my business too. Advertising a prize that's worth £15k that's only worth £500 at best is pretty low.
We'll find out next that Omaze houses aren't worth £3.5m and are riddled with new-build issues - like a bit of flooding every year! 🤣
From the FT article..
That is made harder by the fact that TSG, which declined to comment for this article, is guaranteed an 18 per cent compounding annual return on its 22 per cent holding in the event of an IPO or sale. This return takes priority over other shareholders, according to BrewDog’s prospectus, meaning newer investors risk making nothing or losing money even if the company’s value rises.
“If BrewDog raise the maximum £50m at the current valuation of just under £2bn, investors in the latest UK Equity for Punks crowdfund would only get their money back if the company sells for [about] £2.2bn in 2024,” said Myrto Lalacos, investment executive at venture capital firm Praetura Ventures.
https://www.ft.com/content/5ad0e222-a35b-4ae8-aa16-27f1feb964a5
I really can't see how one can get anywhere near that valuation and clearly it was disingenuous to suggest the company was being valued at £1 billion when they did the TSG deal because such a high yield preference clearly makes TSG's shares considerably more valuable than any other class.
Ah but it's not about making money, it's about being punk and sticking it to the man! Take down the fusty old stockmarket establishment for a minimum investment of just £50! Cough up, suckers.
I only drink non-alcoholic beer, I’m going to stop buying Brewdog (just ordered to crate of Big Drop to try) now except in a pub if they only is choice between Becks Blue and a non alcoholic Brewdog then my morals will go out the window.
Done some dedicated teetotalling this last year and cannot find better than Brewdog, sad to say - tried loads of others but Punk AF and nanny state are top dog (by miles, imho).
TO be fair their purchase of the Kinrara estate has made the Scottish Gamekeepers Association absolutely furious. On that basis I assume it is a good thing for the environment and local wildlife.
@woodpile that sweeping statement would have been indefensible even if your beer of choice was a very good one. Even tougher when the one you choose is absolute tramp piss
Done some dedicated teetotalling this last year and cannot find better than Brewdog, sad to say – tried loads of others but Punk AF and nanny state are top dog (by miles, imho).
Not quite AF but try Small Beer or Kernel’s Table Beer. About 2.5-3%.
TO be fair their purchase of the Kinrara estate has made the Scottish Gamekeepers Association absolutely furious. On that basis I assume it is a good thing for the environment and local wildlife.
On that basis I might occasionally allow myself to buy Brewdog again, funding the infuriation of SGA! 😎
Done some dedicated teetotalling this last year and cannot find better than Brewdog, sad to say – tried loads of others but Punk AF and nanny state are top dog (by miles, imho).
Yeah Nanny State is lovely. Can't stand their Lost AF - smells odd. I've stopped buying anything Brewdog now though.
I'm sampling Adnams offerings at the moment - Sole Star is quite nice. But Bitburger Drive less so - a generic pilsner kinda thing. Big Drop, mentioned above, I liked too.
A closer real-world valuation would be somewhere around £12.50 a share, which is what the price was on the last trading day (IIRC).
Oranjeboom 8.5.
Far more taste, a lot more bang for your buck and a lot less bullshit.
Because InBev are a shining light of corporate responsibility?
This brewery has an excellent range of AF beers. Not cheap but really very good:
I’d hold off on the celebration for Kinrara until it’s seen what these muppets will actually do with it.
They’ll have to kill a fair few deer when it interferes with their carbon offset money.
A closer real-world valuation would be somewhere around £12.50 a share, which is what the price was on the last trading day (IIRC).
Not any world I have lived in, it still £1 billion for a company that struggles to make profits in a crowded market place.
I’d hold off on the celebration for Kinrara until it’s seen what these muppets will actually do with it.
They’ll have to kill a fair few deer when it interferes with their carbon offset money.
I thought you were fine with killing things Brads, certainly the industry you are quick to defend is build on the very premise of killing things.
I suspect Brewdog are much less likely to kill raptors than tradition DGM owners so that is fine with me.
