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The problem is people. Not religion.
Religion is merely amongst the vehicles they used to en mass support.
What kind of world do we live in when this kind of thing happens?
The same world we have always lived in unfortunately. One where we invest unimaginable resources into the development and manufacture of machines with the sole purpose of killing as many of us as efficiently as we can.
We all subside this industry, and we all profit from the sale of these machines to groups of people who then use them on others. The only surprise to me is that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often.
Maybe if hits our doorstep we will do something about it, if it's not too late by then. In the meantime we can keep our heads firmly buried in the sand.
but I don't think you can compare bombing of cites in war to the specific targeting and cruel killing of kids in a school
Unless you've been carrying an AK47 since you were strong enough to pick it up, and until you've maybe seen your family members butchered in front of you, and until you've seen nothing but war and death and fear and dreamt of nothing but war and death and fear, then I think you're probably like an ant trying to compare a bowl of sugar and the mathematical principals of quantum physics
your sensationalist posts are all very thought-provoking yunki, genuinely, but do you have any actions/ solutions? or do we all just sit here in a fog of despair and futility?
is it sensationalist though brakes?
really!?
Of course I don't have a solution.. jeez
And yes we just sit here and contemplate the futility.. we go to work tomorrow, enjoy Christmas and will have forgotten all about any of this by NYE..
What are [i]you[/i] planning to do about it?
I suppose you're heading out there on the first available flight to tell them they're all very naughty boys
what a silly post 😆
EDIT: sorry.. that was a bit uncalled for.. I really don't have a clue what to do about it.. I will give it some thought this evening though
The root is religion. They're all forms of societal conditioning.
Disagree, way I see it is it's way more fundamental than just 'religion'. The root is a dogmatic in-group/out-group psycho-social dynamic.
Dogmatic/organised religion is just one (albeit enormously powerful) vehicle for this. When you build a family around religious doctrine, and then a village, and a town and a city...
Apostates are political dissidents are fifth columnists are 'filthy foreigners'
A cynic might say the only reason we don't take that approach in the Middle East is because we need to maintain access to the oil.
Although it's a global market and what happens in one place will affect another. Almost all Middle East oil goes East to China, not Europe or the USA. We could fall out with them to our hearts content, they could ban shipments to the west and there'd be little impact.
Hard as it seems for conspiracy theorists to accept, western intervention in the area may well be intended* for the good of the people living there and/or preventing terrorism.
*that's not the same as the result though.
what a silly post
not really, I am genuinely at a loss as to what we, as individuals, can do about this and whether I would be prepared to do anything selfless if I was asked.
I know... hence my apology
sorry
They're all forms of societal conditioning.
Like "Reality TV".
Regardless of the argument and bumpf around the rationale;
84 children. 84. Just little kids, like ours, going to school.
****ing hell.
A terrible act but it seems a mistake to blame Drone Strikes
This about a group fighting for territory and spreading its way of doing things. The West isn't the target here is it. Its the moderate majority in that country
Nahhh, attacking a school full of kids is personal. Those that carried out the attack had an axe to grind as opposed to objectives to achieve. Perhaps both.
one mans freedom fighter...
...is another man's arsehole?
ahh the good old religion of peace is at it again i see...bless em
Sorry but that's a bullshit point of view, formed from your cosy safe brick house, in your peaceful street, surrounded by luxury and with the biggest danger in your life perhaps your daily commute..
Nope its not a bullshit point of view at all, its my opinion based on knowing what is right and wrong. Believe it or not, I'm not an idiot and can well see why some of what we call 'terrorism' can be justified by many people.
I have a close friend brought up in ****stan and likewise one from Gaza. Both are disgusted by this and share a very similar viewpoint on it to myself.
Likewise, What are the rest of ****stan saying about it I wonder? Is anyone out there trying to justify it, or are they sickened by it as much as me?
Bear in mind we're not talking about bombing an army base, firing rockets into israel, or even planting a bomb to kill civilians. This is the deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this. Yet you are trying to justify it?
So whilst you can dismiss my viewpoint as much as you like, given (I assume) you also grew up in a comfy brick house listening to radio 4, your opinion is no more valid than mine...
Bear in mind we're not talking about bombing an army base, firing rockets into israel, or even planting a bomb to kill civilians. This is the deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of [b]very few[/b] that have stooped to doing this. Yet you are trying to justify it?
Someone I know gunned down a group of kids from a chopper after someone fired at them from within the group.
"It is the tragedian's task, then, to force us to confront an almost unbearable truth: every folly or myopia of which any human being in history has been guilty may be traced back to some aspect of our collective nature. Because we each bear within ourselves the whole of the human condition, in its worst and best aspects, any one of us might be capable of doing anything at all, or nothing, under the right—or rather the most horribly wrong—conditions" - Alain de Botton
😆slowoldman - Member...is another man's arsehole?
deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this
the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example.
Or the RAF at Dresden. Desperate people will do appalling things why is this more shocking than anything else. The point for me isn't that this has occurred it's why it's being reported in the way that it is.
Yeah but when we deliberately target kids it's 'I-can't-believe-it's-not-terrorism' because we do it for democracy and it's swept under the carpet, when they do it it's called terrorism because they are dirty theists who do it so they can carry on humping goats.
We obviously do it for far more noble reasons, the Taliban do it with more panache and honesty though, I'll give them that.
There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this
Just from the past couple of decades I can think of half a dozen groups that have killed and abducted children for political reasons. Boko Haram, The LRA, The Chechen sepratists, the Hutusin Rwanda, The Taliban previously, The PDF. It's unpleasant but it's hardly unprecedented or even especially rare.
based on knowing what is right and wrong
which is something you learned from your cosy viewpoint..
As I said in my post I'm not trying to justify it, just find it a bit odd that we think we can pass judgement based on values that we developed from our life experience..
The life experience of the people that carried out the act is not something that we can comprehend..
But if you can't grasp that simple concept then I shouldn't really expect you to bother reading my post properly, or interpreting it in any way other than is most comfortable for you..
Anyway.. I'm orf to the pub fellas
ciao 🙂
This is doubtless a horrific and barbaric attack, but as many have said in the thread already, it is part of a bigger picture; from drone strikes, to the CIA funding and training the Taliban in the 1st place:
The real evil comes in the form of the western intelligence services and the military industrial media complex.
Stir tensions, provide weapons, demonize
Same cycle been played out again and again, but as global media has progressed, so has the depth of manipulation.
The same people have been profiting throughout, be it from arms sales, private military firms or indeed selling newspapers.
Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Blackwater, ArmourGroup, NewsCorp etc etc are all complicit in the scenarios which lead to such tragedy and perpetuate hatred and war.
Behind the mask of these faceless corporations, all too often you'll find the same politicians who make the case for war.
As for this demonstrating how particularly vile these killers are to attack children and teachers in a school, and they must be that way because of religious indoctrination, I give you:
A Norwegian on an island where a summer camp was being held.
A guy in the north of England.
Many, many white, christian Americans who've shot their way through schools.
The difference in ****stan is that there is a possible explanation.
Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.
Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.
I did read your post
As I said in my post I'm not trying to justify it
well actually you said this....
I dunno if I'm trying to justify what happened, but I am a bit sickened that we can sit here in our safe little cotton wool wrapped lives passing judgement on people who have endured decades no, centuries of violent military persecution
I understand exactly what you meant in your first post, I simply didn't agree that any right minded individual would see that as justification to carry out this act, regardless of background. Many in ****stam have suffered just as badly, yet there is near unanimous condemnation of this act.
Can you not accept this point of view and rational without resorting to trying to insult me?
As for being'sickened' that someone like myself in my cosy house could possibly see fit to pass judgement on people that have killed 108 innocent schoolkids. I think you're going to be in the very small minority on that one i'm afraid.
enjoy your pint!
Just driving home from nursery with my 4 year old had radio 4 on (cuz i is dead posh init) I wasnt really listening until anagallis junior said, "why did the children get killed" couldnt really explain why.
Well there will be unanimous condemnation from government sources, anyone who doesn't want to get arrested or simply disposed of, the press if they want to go on printing, the media if they want to go on broadcasting. I reckon that even the villagers who've lost loved one to drones would condemn the acts rather than have the next drone head their way.
It's unrealistic to expect anyone to show any understanding at all in public in ****stan. If you find analysis and an ability to understand all is not black and white anywhere it will be on a bike forum in a country where you don't get shot for stating the blindingly obvious.
Edit: I won't be enjoying a pint because 1/ I don't drink (well rarely before anyone suspects I'm a ... .) 2/ like Woppit I've found the events sickening.
The difference in ****stan is that there is a possible explanation.
Indeed, but it might not be one that you think. Maybe it's a bunch of sickos who get off on horrendous violence? What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don't butcher kids in cold blood.
Indeed, but it might not be one that you think. Maybe it's a bunch of sickos who get off on horrendous violence? What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don't butcher kids in cold blood.
That doesn't mean they don't support it though.
Support for terrorism is pretty high in both Afghanistan and parts of ****stan, maybe deliberately targeting a school is going a bit to far for those supporters but kids get blown up in non targeted attacks as well....and they are okay with that.
Hopefully potential radicals will see this and think twice about signing up.
You cannot be so naive to completely disconnect religion from terrorism. Not in Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism or any other religious fuelled fundamentalism. Religion is the mechanism by which people justify good deeds as well as bad, it's intertwined and you cannot pick and choose where it's influence applies or it doesn't. You cannot ignore the religious element in dealing with the root cause of acts like these and it has to be dealt with. As far as this latest atrocity goes, these people didn't have an issue with drone strikes or Blair, they've come out and said its in retaliation to ****stani military operations in the region, so ****stanis defending their own country from these Taliban thugs. You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others. I'm deliberately not using the te Human as these people ceased to be human the moment they conceived of this act.
Drones are very much a part of the ****stani governments offensive in the region. An integral part of the attacks which they claim cost less civilian lives per militant killed than ground attacks. The drones are either ****stani or American operating on information (I would say on orders)of the ****stani government.
Poor kids. 🙁
Not the "evil" word again.
Horrific atrocities committed daily, in perpetuity, by human people.
South Sudan, currently, Syria, currently, Mexico, currently.
Perhaps I have "evil fatigue". In truth, I've found ruminations on the worst in "humanity" has led me nowhere but down a misanthropic, miserable road.
I'll worry about assisting midwives working at refugee camps: Saving as many lives together as were lost in the ****stan massacre. If there's evil, I'm ****ing focusing on the hope.
What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don't butcher kids in cold blood.
Excellent point and too easily forgotten. The people doing this are the minority, even among the Taliban.
The smaller the coffin, the heavier it is to carry
What a poignant turn of phrase from the ****stani Defence Minister.
I won't be enjoying a pint because 1/ I don't drink (well rarely before anyone suspects I'm a ... .) 2/ like Woppit I've found the events sickening.
That was aimed at yunki! And for no other reason than he said he was going for a beer and(after our disagreement) I was trying to be pleasant 🙂
Just popping in to paste this from Reddit's ELI5 (Explain Like I'm 5) sub:
ELI5: The Taliban just killed 130 people in a school, mostly children. Why is that somehow part of a rational strategy for them? How do they justify that to themselves?
The larger context right now is being ignored. Since June the ****stani military has been conducting a military offensive in the Northwest Frontier Provinces. This area often called the FATA district is home to various ****stani Taliban groups and tribal groups ( like the Mehsuds and Wazirs) with shifting allegiances. The ****stani Taliban is influenced by A) Deobandi Islamism which is a Southeast Asian variation of radical Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi [1] B) and its dominant influence is the Pashtun tribal ethos of Pashtunwali: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali [2]These two influences have shaped Taliban religious and political ideology. Now, 80 % of the Taliban are Pashtuns, while ****stan is divided into various ethnic and regional groups ( like Sindhs, Punjabis)..The Pashtuns are also in Afghanistan as the Durrand Line ( the border between ****stan/Afghanistan) cuts between their ethnic " homeland". They don't identify with the state of ****stan. Now, since the operation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Zarb-e-Azb [3] was launched since the breakdown of the ceasefire with the Taliban and PM Nawaz Sharif's gov't and the Jinnah int'l airport attack in June, The Taliban consider the use of attacks on children and schools as a means of exacting revenge which is a major important thing in Pashtun culture. They see the deaths of their tribesmen as something that justifies these barbaric attacks. They have been scattered now into various cities in ****stan as well, which makes it more dangerous. The ****stani Taliban are at war with the government in Islamabad. I would also like to add that the Taliban attacked an ARMY school, which means these kids were children of soldiers who were fighting in the NWFP. The tribes the Taliban protect there lost many children to the ****stani military. This is cold blooded revenge for the Taliban at the same time sending a message to the ****stani military to stay out of " their" territory.
Edit: I am also going to add a Wiki link to the areas where the Pashtun people predominate. If you notice its in the area of the border region:
[4]
Edit 2: Wow.Thanks for the gold! I am only doing my duty as someone with a History degree. If you want some good sources I suggest two readings:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300178845 [5]
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/01/****stan-hard-country-anatol-lieven-review [6]Edit 3: I wanted to clarify that my statements are not demeaning to Pashtun culture or to Pashtun people. I hope you don't take offense. Most Pashtun are not Taliban. My point being was that most Taliban are Pashtun. I want to explain the socioeconomic and historical circumstances of a great people within the context of why the Taliban continue to exert influence.
- [url= http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2pgzlb/eli5_the_taliban_just_killed_130_people_in_a/cmwlyjl ]Sauce.[/url]
You cannot be so naive to completely disconnect religion from terrorism. Not in Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism or any other religious fuelled fundamentalism. Religion is the mechanism by which people justify good deeds as well as bad, it's intertwined and you cannot pick and choose where it's influence applies or it doesn't. You cannot ignore the religious element in dealing with the root cause of acts like these and it has to be dealt with. As far as this latest atrocity goes, these people didn't have an issue with drone strikes or Blair, they've come out and said its in retaliation to ****stani military operations in the region, so ****stanis defending their own country from these Taliban thugs. You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others. I'm deliberately not using the te Human as these people ceased to be human the moment they conceived of this act.
Yeah, you've fallen into the same trap as the people who label Hitler as a monster. It makes themselves feel better about the human condition, when in reality we all have the potential to do evil things given the right circumstances and lack of self awareness.
Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.
As a former pupil of said school during those events I'd like to extend a massive **** YOU ****! Take your ****ing warped lies elsewhere and tell them to some other mug that won't know any different.
2014
2 November Taliban suicide bomber kills 60 people in an attack on a paramilitary checkpoint close to the Wagah border crossing with India.
8 June A suicide bomber in the country’s south-west killed at least 23 Shia pilgrims returning from Iran.
2013
22 September Twin suicide bomb blasts in a Peshawar church kill at least 85 people.
3 March Explosion in Karachi kills 45 Shia outside a mosque.
10 January Bombing in Shia area of Quetta kills 81 people.
2012
22 November A Taliban suicide bomber struck a Shia procession in the city of Rawalpindi, killing 23.
5 January Taliban fighters kill 15 ****stani frontier police after holding them hostage for more than a year.
2011
20 September Militants kill at least 26 Shia on a bus near Quetta.
13 May A pair of Taliban suicide bombers attack paramilitary police recruits in Shabqadar, killing 80, in retaliation for Osama bin Laden’s killing.
2010
5 November A suicide bomber strikes a Sunni mosque in Darra Adam Khel, killing at least 67 during Friday prayers.
1 September A triple Taliban suicide attack on a Shia procession kills 65 in Quetta.
9 July Two suicide bombers kill 102 people in the Mohmand tribal region.
2 July Suicide bombers attack ****stan’s most revered Sufi shrine in Lahore, killing 47 people.
29 May Two militant squads armed with hand grenades, suicide vests and assault rifles attack two mosques of the Ahmadi minority sect in Lahore, killing 97.
1 January A suicide bomber drives a truckload of explosives into a volleyball field in Lakki Marwat district, killing at least 97 people.
2009
28 December Bomb blast kills at least 44 at a Shia procession in Karachi.
9 October A suicide car bomber hits a busy market area in Peshawar, killing 53.
2008
20 September A suicide bomber devastates the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad with a truck full of explosives, killing at least 54.
2007
27 December Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and 20 other people are killed in a suicide bombing and shooting attack in Rawalpindi.
I understand people's impulse to widen the subject into an argument about the wider picture of international violence and so on, but I want to re-establish focus on my central point of the appalling act contained within an already horrific attack.
They killed a teacher by pouring gasoline over him and then setting him alight. In front of the children. Forcing them to watch it. Before (presumably), shooting the children.
Think about that for a second.
The ****stani government have just re-introduced the death penalty
That should sort it!
You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others.
It's not justification or appeasement to point out the double standard here. Did any of you give that much of a shit when CIA drone strikes killed hundreds of ****stani kids? No - because we're the good guys and when we kill kids it's all fine.
Remember the outrage about this?
Religious school attacked
It is one of the worst incidents of the entire drones campaign, yet one of the least reported. A CIA strike on a
madrassa or religious school
in 2006 killed up to 69 children, among 80 civilians.
The attack was on a religious seminary in Chenegai, in Bajaur Agency.CIA drones attacked on October 30, flattening much of the school. Their target was reportedly the headmaster, a known militant. According to some reports, there was also a token late contribution to the assault by ****stani military helicopters. But dozens of children were also killed, the youngest aged seven.
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/08/11/more-than-160-children-killed-in-us-strikes/
Me neither.
They attack schools because education is the enemy of the putrid medieval religion behind these attrocities.
eurrrgghhh.. massive hangover and already 20 mins late for my youngest's nursery school Chrimbo party..
I will make a great effort not to slay any kids when I get there
Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.
As a former pupil of said school during those events I'd like to extend a massive * YOU *! Take your **** warped lies elsewhere and tell them to some other mug that won't know any different.
Appreciate your passion, must've been horrific.
I haven't lied; many accounts do indeed allude to what I've stated. I wasn't there, but Thomas Hamilton evidently had links to the 'Friends of QVS'.
If there was even the tiniest chance that the allegations were true, wouldn't you want to pursue justice?
What do you think was horrific?
Certainly none of what you said has any truth behind it and if by "all accounts" you mean a single testimony by an ex-member of staff who also had no evidence or even full confidence to back up his allegations then rock on.
Thomas Hamilton, though having entered school grounds, had absolutely no contact with any pupils there. Plenty of groups use the school facilities when the pupils are on holiday so it's not inconcievable that he and his scout group would have done the same. As for the "Friends of QVS" I don't remember the existence of any group of that name. VIP's and such (school commissioners and guests) would hold functions on the school grounds but certainly none that would facilitate the sorts of activities you're suggesting.
The issue over access to dormitories has been twisted to suit the author. In actual fact it was more to do with the fact that former pupils were coming up for the reunion weekend and treating the place as a bunk house rather than anything sinister.
To be quite clear and to the point - you're talking out of your arse and don't have the first idea about anything you're talking about. Of course if there WAS a case to answer I would want to see it answered but what these allegations are doing is putting two and two together and coming up with nine. It's a tiny school with ~250 pupils, it would be nigh on impossible to do the things suggested without SOMEONE noticing and broadcasting it to all and sundry within hours. Of course you, and presumably the authors of these accusations, don't know things like that and can just peddle baseless accusations with impunity since the chances of anyone in the know happening upon them are fairly remote.
My bad, I misunderstood, I thought you meant you were in the primary school when the shootings occurred.
You seem to disregard that there are several accounts that Thomas Hamilton was a danger to children from as early as 1981, and six police investigations but somehow he was left untouched by the procurator fiscal and still allowed a firearms license:
https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=61692
Whether or not there was misconduct at QVS is debatable, but given what certainly appears to be standard practice nationwide of covering up such affairs, it would be foolish to disregard the possibility:
http://exaronews.com/articles/5429/protected-paedophile-mps-and-prominent-people-say-police
Sorry if that offends you because you went to school there, it could be nothing, but given the overall trend, it warrants investigation.
Christ... Using the deaths of 140 people in ****stan as a pretext to peddle your usual line of paedogeddon conspiracy bollocks is pretty spectacularly shitty.
Cool, let's get back on topic then shall we;
This is doubtless a horrific and barbaric attack, but as many have said in the thread already, it is part of a bigger picture; from drone strikes, to the CIA funding and training the Taliban in the 1st place:The real evil comes in the form of the western intelligence services and the military industrial media complex.
Stir tensions, provide weapons, demonize
Same cycle been played out again and again, but as global media has progressed, so has the depth of manipulation.
The same people have been profiting throughout, be it from arms sales, private military firms or indeed selling newspapers.
Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Blackwater, ArmourGroup, NewsCorp etc etc are all complicit in the scenarios which lead to such tragedy and perpetuate hatred and war.
Behind the mask of these faceless corporations, all too often you'll find the same politicians who make the case for war.
Telegraph have decided to discuss this in a pretty head-on manner:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/****stan/11297608/After-the-****stan-school-attack-we-need-to-talk-about-Islam.html
They've got a point.
What I found particularly terrifying, though he was only pointing out what we already know, was the regional expert on Radio 4 this morning. I think he was a former ambassador in the region
He pointed out that you can not negotiate with these people, as they don't really have any demands short of everyone submitting completely to their warped world view. There is no compromise. No middle ground. That is their sole aim. And they see themselves purely as warriors on Gods mission, and actively seek martyrdom
When you take a moment to think about that, and what it legitimises in their eyes, its pretty ****ing scary
It's chilling. On the one hand, we hear ****stanis talking with great feeling and eloquence about what they want their country to become - how they see Malala Yousafzai as a heroine and are proud of her Nobel Peace award - and on the other we hear of the mindless, soulless barbarity of people hell-bent on seeing not just ****stan, but the whole world, revert to some version of the dark ages.
As you say, there is no more sense in reasoning with this mindset than trying to reason away a wasps nest or an infestation of ants.
They've got a point.What I found particularly terrifying, though he was only pointing out what we already know, was the regional expert on Radio 4 this morning. I think he was a former ambassador in the region
He pointed out that you can not negotiate with these people, as they don't really have any demands short of everyone submitting completely to their warped world view. There is no compromise. No middle ground. That is their sole aim. And they see themselves purely as warriors on Gods mission, and actively seek martyrdom
When you take a moment to think about that, and what it legitimises in their eyes, its pretty ****ing scary
They weren't AQ they were ****stan Taliban, effectively a much more extreme ETA. I should imagine if ****stan turned it into a semi-autonomous region like Muslim Mindanao in the Philippines....the problem would go away.
So yes, ****stan probably can negotiate with them if that's what people wanted , they seem to be fighting for independence from ****stan.
Also....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi#Taliban
The movement developed as a reaction to [b]British colonialism[/b] in India, which was believed by a group of prominent Indian scholars — consisting of Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, Muhammad Yaqub Nanautawi, Shah Rafi al-Din, Sayyid Muhammad Abid, Zulfiqar Ali, Fadhl al-Rahman Usmani and Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi — to be corrupting the Islamic religion. They therefore founded an Islamic seminary known as Darul Uloom Deoband.[5] From here the Islamic revivalist and anti-imperialist ideology of the Deobandis began to develop
LOL once again, an example of how Britain has ****ed up the world on a far greater scale than Nazi Germany ever managed.
It's not even just about Islam itself, Pashtun culture would indicate these aren't people to be trifled with.
The Pathan tribes are always engaged in private or public war. Every man is a warrior, a politician and a theologian. Every large house is a real feudal fortress....Every family cultivates its vendetta; every clan, its feud.... Nothing is ever forgotten and very few debts are left unpaid.
Winston Churchill (My Early Life - Chapter 11: The Mahmund Valley)
Nyaw aw Badal (justice and revenge) - To seek justice or take revenge against the wrongdoer. No time limit restricts the period in which revenge can be taken. Justice in Pashtun lore needs elaborating: even a mere taunt (or "Peghor/?????") counts as an insult which usually can only be redressed by shedding the taunter's blood. If he is out of reach, his or her closest male relation must suffer the penalty instead. Badal may lead to blood feuds that can last generations and involve whole tribes with the loss of hundreds of lives. Normally blood feuds in this male-dominated society are settled in a number of ways.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali
And people wonder why they stormed a school if some of their own children have been killed?
an example of how Britain has **** up the world on a far greater scale than Nazi Germany ever managed
Beneath contempt. Time for a thread closure, methinks.
Beneath contempt. Time for a thread closure, methinks
How many serious ongoing problems in this world are a direct consequence of Germany's actions and how many are a consequence of ours?
The answer is
Germany - Zero
Britain - Dozens
Every time I read about some serious feud or sectarian conflict, the British empire manages to turn up in the story.
Heard that the Taliban hierarchy said "...they were only meant to kill teachers and older students, not children..." - well that's all-****ing-right then 😡
It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into 🙁
Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali
then this
The recent interview on television of Islamic scholar Javed Ghamidi in which he attributed the Taliban’s beheading and stoning to death to tribal Pashtun culture has triggered a debate on social media. Ghamidi further said that even a child in the tribal belt could behead with ease. These indeed were very callous remarks from a supposedly good religious scholar.There is no denying the fact that the Pashtun belt in ****stan, and across the fence, has been a fertile ground for terrorism for more than three decades but the factors that contributed to terrorism were mostly foreign. Analysts blame the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in which the Afghans generally and the Pashtuns especially became sandwiched between the US and the Soviet Union. It is widely believed that the Pashtuns are on the wrong side of history, inhabiting a place of strategic importance that has witnessed onslaughts from all major forces in recent history.
We should not forget that the major players in the civil war after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan were mostly Pashtuns. Later, the Taliban, who were ethnically Pashtun, emerged on the scene and excelled their predecessors in wreaking havoc. Apart from their despicable attitude towards women, the destruction of two Buddha statues in Bamyan was an unforgivable act by the Taliban. However, the machinations and influence of the deep state cannot be condoned. The point here is not to single out the Pashtuns and declare the rest of ****stanis a very enlightened lot — they have their own lashkars (militias) of holy warriors — but we Pashtuns need introspection and need to seek answers to the question: why has our land become a breeding ground for terrorism? Is it geography, our love for militant Islam, our tribal culture or our trigger-happy temperament that brings us this ‘distinction’?I hear commentators who mostly attribute this problem to lack of education, poverty, post-9/11 developments and the military operations in Swat and the tribal areas. These factors might somehow have contributed but it is time to look at this from a different perspective as well. Non-local experts on terrorism generally ignore, or basically fail to understand, the important role Pashtun culture plays in promoting extremism. A Pashtun lives in a closed culture that is religiously conservative too. A male chauvinistic culture, which gives no freedom of expression or dissent, pushes youngsters to become reactionaries. When faced with real life challenges, the Pashtuns respond emotionally rather than rationally. Another damaging aspect of this culture is a social acceptance of bullies. Everyone, from teachers to the mullah and uncles to fathers, acts like a bully and instills a sense of fear, thereby creating an overwhelming sense of paranoia among Pashtun children.
A Pashtun can better understand what has led to the degeneration of his culture. This culture has now become ossified, as not only has it lost its good traits but also the capacity to be in synch with modernisation. Many factors have contributed to this cultural decadence like its inherent weakness and the onslaught of Wahabi militant and rigid Islam, which heavily invested in the Pashtun belt for more than three decades. However, the most damaging blow was given by the Tabligh-e-Jamaat (TeJ), which excelled even Wahabism in bringing about cultural closeness, pushing young Pashtuns away from cultural activities and killing their desire to become active members of society. The TeJ discourages cultural gatherings, fairs and festivals and considers music and dances, the cultural manifestations of the area, to be evil acts. It even demonised laughter — a sign of life — and said that a hearty laugh extinguishes a celestial light in the human heart.
The role of the media, especially the Urdu media, has been very negative in its stereotyping: its demonisation and generalisation of the Pashtuns has put them at a loss for their identity. The perception that Mr Ghamidi has is that the Pashtuns are generally savages, backward, and cannot assimilate in the mainstream culture — this perception is pushing middle-class, educated Pashtuns into the hands of the militants. The media does not paint with the same brush when it comes to militants in Punjab.
Political activity has been an effective instrument in engaging people. The initiative to allow political parties to operate freely for the first time in FATA is a belated but right step and will help lessen the grip of militancy in the region. Critics argue that the lack of reforms has alienated tribesmen and made it easier for militant networks to recruit young men to fight the ****stani government and to avenge a covert US drone war. However, it is wrong to assume that people are drifting into terrorism just because their family members are being killed in drone attacks.
Geography has a role in making the Pashtun belt fertile for religious-based militancy. With armed tribes in the Pak-Afghan rugged mountains, weak government control, the three decades long war theatre, smuggling, the drugs-based economy and the non-existent political culture, militancy has fomented on both sides of our porous western border. Physical geography cannot be changed but mindsets can be. As Maria Robinson puts it, “Nobody can go back and start a new beginning but anyone can start today and make a new ending.”
It is time we start today for a new era of peace and prosperity. The next step after implementing the Political Parties Act should aim at giving provincial status to FATA and doing away with the garrison and strategic depth mentality. This mindless hunt for strategic depth in FATA and Afghanistan has irreparably weakened the country. Pashtuns need to be integrated into the mainstream to play a role in the progress and development of this country instead of seeing them as savages like Ghamidi did. Bombs and bullets cannot defeat terrorism. We have seen that deterrence can be effective on a short term basis; it is the long term process of development and dialogue that needs to be initiated to make the Pashtun land infertile for extremism and fertile for openness and tolerance.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/25-Feb-2014/terrorism-and-the-pashtun-belt
A pretty ****ed up part of the world isn't it, that breeds very, very hard individuals.
It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into
The safest, healthiest and most secure world humanity has ever known?
It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into
the ability to be able to visualise your own child in that situation is a pretty horrible one but the truth is that kids now are being born into a world that suffers similar level of brutality and barbarism as there's ever been. We just probably are more aware of what it's like now than we would have been when at a time when our parents were growing up.
Every time I read about some serious feud or sectarian conflict, the British empire manages to turn up in the story.
Tom does have a good point all told, from colonial genocide all over the world, to slavery, to continued initiation of conflict through covert means, the footprint of Britain leaves a dark legacy which is generally buried through sugar coated propaganda.
The vast majority of people are good, but a proportion of all our taxes goes toward perpetuating the arms trade, war and oppression which fuels horrific incidents such as this latest massacre.
In no way do I condone what the ****stan Taliban did but for years the US have used continual Drone strikes with the colatral damage that comes with it. The US should review its policy on drone strikes in light of ****stani families now suffering, in part due to US policy.
In addition why did it take 8hours to subdue 7 men who were actively shooting children from the start with an Army barracks so close by?
Now the ****stani army has to deal with the Taliban ASAP and bring swift justice. What a horrible situation and the perpitrators are not Muslims. It was a disgusting attack.
The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ), an independent journalist organization. TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562-3,325 people in ****stan, of whom 474-881 were civilians, including 176 children.[3] TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228-1,362 individuals.
In addition why did it take 8hours to subdue 7 men who were actively shooting children from the start with an Army barracks so close by?
Generally, soldiers don't like getting killed. So I should imagine clearing out 7 nutters from a school room by room would be a fairly lengthy process.
Tom does have a good point all told, from colonial genocide all over the world, to slavery, to continued initiation of conflict through covert means, the footprint of Britain leaves a dark legacy which is generally buried through sugar coated propaganda.
Odd how so few of those concerned share this view?
Two teachers lost their lives through be burned to death on different sides of the world yesterday - terrible stories both, but this destroys the overly simplistic causation links to things like religion (ok I know that is a STW thing, but....)
Tom (and semi-OT) if there was a Kenyan mall etc event and the British Army was present due to training they'd go in. The British armed Police would have different protocols? All down to training. I imagine the ****stani army ground Commanders would wait/not sure rather than be dynamic?
Odd how so few of those concerned share this view?
They won't be any the wiser thanks to
initiation of conflict through covert means
Of course, placing all the burden on Britain these days is overly simplistic (although many of the most powerful bankers and nobility who have been benefiting from this kind of enterprise since the days of slavery and privateers are still based here) but the same general principles of stir tensions, provide weapons and demonize the enemy to divide and conquer were exported to the colonies and evolved into the situations which have been brewing throughout our lifetimes.
Tom (and semi-OT) if there was a Kenyan mall etc event and the British Army was present due to training they'd go in. The British armed Police would have different protocols? All down to training. I imagine the ****stani army ground Commanders would wait/not sure rather than be dynamic?
No they wouldn't, it would be left to the Kenyans. Killing 7 heavily armed war hardened loons who want to die and know the army is coming, who are armed with machine guns, grenades and bombs, holding a building with hundreds of rooms that was designed to be secure is an entirely different kettle of fish to assaulting a cafe with an idiot carrying a shotgun, or even the bunch of idiots that held up the Iranian embassy.
That school was full of the local officers children, so I think it's a little ridiculous to insinuate that they didn't want to to their jobs properly.
No one can hold that school/buildings with 7 people if a properly trained force attacked. Its disorganisation, training and plain fear that will have held their Army back.
It was a compound and there were still kids held up inside meaning that they would have had to check their fire. You have to deal with fleeing wounded children, booby traps, withering machine gun fire, grenades, maybe RPGs and you have to make sure you don't shoot the wrong people. Once you've managed to enter a large building like that, it then takes hours to methodically clear each room and declare the place safe.
Even the Russians, who are hardened and have well trained special forces had issues coping with this. We'd fare little better if this happened on our own soil. In fact, it's arrogant to think we would.
If this ever happened in London, hundreds would be dead before even a couple of met officers turned up with carbines and sod all ammo.
I was going to keep out of this....
Aside from the usual condemnations, explanations, expression of horror etc. What I find interesting is the ability of otherwise rational peaceful people to completely put aside their morals and beliefs and accept a militaristic justification of killing innocents. I'm not talking about the taliban, they're obviously nut-jobs created either by religious/ideological zeal and/or decades of violence, I'm talking about us. We have in the west an unparalleled ability to compartmentalise and justify violence on a scale that the taliban can only dream of, on the basis that an elected government and a professional and highly trained military tell us that it's ok because somehow it's for the greater good and/or for our own protection. The end result is the same as anything the taliban or their nutter friends in ISIS get up to, indeed often it's many time worse. Yet we willingly accept it, and then un-ironically watch in horror when these things appear on our tv screens. It's very strange and baffling, and I don't think I'll ever get my head around it.