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Guys, seriously, I wouldn't worry, nature is gonna come up with a virus to mellow things out a bit and restore natural balance...
Oh
and I can keep doing what I’m doing.
And therein lies the problem. It’s nice for you that you can eat locally produced grass fed cows. If everyone did that we’d be even more f***** than with intensive farming. What makes you so special that your diet must be protected whilst everyone else has to change?
The biggest contributor to global warming/climate change is meat
Where did you get that figure please? I looked at the EPA
Global data:
If we just (for instance) look at the US data:
But as with a lot of simple pie charts - do they account for imports, offshore pollution, outsourcing, etc, etc? Consumption and production in a globalised economy is interconnected. It’s easy to point fingers at China’s factories or. Brazilian landowners but who has been buying all of that stuff for decades? I’m sure that the chicken factories polluting our rivers don’t buy all of their stainless steel machinery and electronics and soy feed from down the street…
So where do billionaire space travel, military expansion and killer robots fit into all of this?
And for folk who can’t cycle, or will die if they don’t heat their homes? (the elderly) what happens to them?
Sounds like they aren't going to be sustainable then!
Seriously though, I'm making a general point. You did say that before, and I didn't answer then, because I found it hard to believe you were saying no-one can turn down their thermostats because grannie might die. If you think that grannie needs to be kept alive a few years longer in her nursing home, then turn up her thermostat. The rest of us will be just fine with a cooler house and another jumper. How do you think we got on before we started burning huge amounts of gas to heat our homes? If we absolutely must maintain our current expetations of living, then where will that heat come from? I would accuse you of "whataboutism", but I find that phrase and concept totally ridiculous.
I’m starting to think climate change is less of an issue than the drop in biodiversity and mass extinction is more of a concern for the future.
The whole thing is interconnected. Problem is that humans are rubbish at seeing the bigger picture, especially when it does not directly affect us.
More biodiversity, greater area of forest / coral reef etc would mitigate some of the climate stuff. Having a connected line of species means a decent balance is maintained - when you remove all the mid-level animals through chopping down the rainforest or fishing them out of the sea, you end up with plagues of insects/jellyfish that have nothing to prey on them anymore.*
*that is a very simplified way of looking at things.
Well, our power grid is much more “decarburised” than any of the places that manufacture all of the crap we used, so if we hadn’t killed off our manufacuring industry, then that would be a great solution
Would it? I assume you know why it isn't made here.
So, what happens to the hundreds of millions of people emplyed in the manufacturing of these items? If we stop flying, what about all those people? Where do they all get emplyed? In the local artisan coffee shops?
And therein lies the problem. It’s nice for you that you can eat locally produced grass fed cows. If everyone did that we’d be even more f***** than with intensive farming. What makes you so special that your diet must be protected whilst everyone else has to change?
How would we? There's a limit to how much grass we can grow, and thus a pretty darn fixed amount of sustainable meat that can be produced. That sounds very reasonable to me. I already pay a lot for my dietary choices, because I belive that it is making a difference to the environment as well as the health of my family. If everyone ate the same way, sure the cost of meat would go up again, but then we would all be living within our dietary means.
Also, FWIW, I don't eat beef that often. What meat we do eat is mostly have chicken, sometimes pork, rarely beef (maybe once a month or less, and from a variety of cuts). Just to remove the perception that I'm demanding I continue my habits of eating grass-feed beef steak once a week.
My diet is not the problem, nor does it need "protecting". It's intensive meat farming that's the issue, and the resulting food products almost all end up in low-grade freezer meals and fast food and the like. That's why I say - I'm on board with enforced reduction in environmentally unsustainable meat production, but as I do my best to avoid food from those sources, it shouldn't affect me.
The way most people and businesses pay for their smart phones, by contract, incentivises the regular replacement and upgrade of perfectly functional equipment. Not only is this bad for the environment it's also more costly.
Would it? I assume you know why it isn’t made here.
I do. It's because the manufacture (and disposal) of all the stuff we buy and use every day is truly horrible to see, and we've legislated it out of our own countries and to places far far away. It's also due to cheap labour.
So, what happens to the hundreds of millions of people emplyed in the manufacturing of these items? If we stop flying, what about all those people? Where do they all get emplyed? In the local artisan coffee shops?
Therein lies the problem. Maybe we could all be employed and live a reasonable lifetyle that looks similar to our current one, if we were all gainfully employed making, repairing, and recycling only high-quality products that last ages and don't wreck the planet.
However, it's far easier to continue as we are, and insist that the latest in tech is also "sustainable" because someone plonked a few solar panels on the roof of a factory, and put a "recyclable" sticker on their goods.
Bit of a condrum, eh?
ut as with a lot of simple pie charts – do they account for imports, offshore pollution, outsourcing, etc, etc?
It will be accounted for in other nations figures. The CO2 is generated somewhere so is attributed to someone.
My diet is not the problem, nor does it need “protecting”. It’s intensive meat farming
You sure....? Are you really positive that your plant based diet is totally sustainable and doesn't draw the same demands from resources as meat does? The science doesn't necessarily back that up. If you lie I the UK and eat anything more exotic than a cucumber then you're just as part of the problem too most likely. But I guess we all pick and choose the science we offer up as evidence that supports our own point of view.
But I guess we all pick and choose the science we offer up as evidence that supports our own point of view.
#notallofus
Speaking for self If I found that my growing and cooking mushroom rashers or buying a plant-based bacon-substitute (instead of pork or turkey) was actually contributing more suffering, pollution and GHG emissions than pork bacon then I’d own it and change my (fortnightly) habit.
But giving the impression that meat-eaters would only also eat plants as ‘exotic’ as a cucumber would be … silly
Are you really positive that your plant based diet is totally sustainable and doesn’t draw the same demands from resources as meat does?
My diet is not "plant-based". I didn't think any of my previous comments gave that impression - I'm already defending eating meat!
My diet has a fairly large dairy + egg content, as well as some meat. It's as sustainably sourced as I can manage, although I could probably do better.
I'm also fully aware of the issues with plant-based diets, that is, the majority of the appropriately "CO2-neutral" replacements for meat are truly terrible for the environment. That's why I don't eat like that.
There’s a reason the billionaires are buggering off to New Zealand.
And space.
Jeff and Elon will almost definitely save us from orbit... right?
Part of me wants to just buy something with a thirsty V8 and enjoy the last few years before the apocalypse. A bigger part of me wants much more widespread changes to our energy use to try and avert it. But sadly I don't think we are capable as a species.
Our over-evolved brains gave us the infernal combustion engine, the gas turbine, Keynesian economics and marketing, the first two helped us erode the environment the latter two kept us from turning our collective intellect towards dealing with the problems we knew we were creating.
We're already going to miss our meagre climate change goals while the wealth, resources and tools necessary to effect useful change are focussed on replacing cars with less Smokey cars, delivering toys to our door, making your phone's screen sharper and putting obscenely wealthy people into orbit...
I don't see us adapting fast enough to deal with inevitable climate disaster.
The root fix would need to be societal, nothing happens without public support, right now the public want cheap leases on their Merc and flights to Florida...
We've trapped the current generation of young people in the gig economy; working two minimum wage jobs to pay their boomer landlords exorbitant rents while they're sold the myth of hard work yielding a better quality of life. So I'm sure when the millennials are going to get round to addressing the issues preceding generations shrugged off...
****ed...
The difficulty with being a smart arse is that you have to have a few smarts, and proof read what you’ve written otherwise you end up just looking an arse, and a fool to boot.
Its called humour, and clearly humour is something far from you ya miserable bawbag.
Scottish volcanoes are extinct and New Zealand volcanoes are not. Hardly needs too great a stretch of the imagination to work that one out.
Now, in Scottish parlance, awa an boil yer heid ya numpty.
You sure….? Are you really positive that your plant based diet is totally sustainable and doesn’t draw the same demands from resources as meat does?
I am 100% sure that my 100% plant-based diet is vastly more sustainable than eating meat. It isn't totally sustainable though because we don't live in a sustainable economy. I am also sure that it's one of the only things I can do individually (short of killing myself or becoming a hermit) which has a real impact in terrms of reducing carbon emissions. This is why I also advocate the reconfiguration of our economy to eliminate unnecessary work and consumption. It's not enough to simply change your diet or stop flying, you also have to support changes to our society and economy and the politicians who propose to do that.
the majority of the appropriately “CO2-neutral” replacements for meat are truly terrible for the environment.
Big claim. Are you comparing ‘like for like’, or doing a big old (usually around soy-production) cherry pick? If you factor in the fact that the majority of soy grown worldwide is used to feed livestock for human consumption, how does that weigh your argument against soy for (direct) human consumption, or against pea protein, lentilburgers (?) etc? Or are you making the argument for only eating locally-produced more sustainable food (whether plant or meat?) and refuse imported feeds/foods?
Big claim. Are you comparing ‘like for like’ or doing a big old cherry pick?
I suppose you're right. Still, you have to be very careful about where your plant-based substitutes come from. It's easy to swap one form of envoronmental destruction and unsustainability for another.
when big corporations continue as normal
Which will be the case
certainly as long as there’s a conservative government. Which, at this rate, will befor a long time. And it’ll keep people spouting out this trope and living by it-Its pretty much irrelevant what the individual does
Fixed it for you. Still don't get your point, its true so people will keep doing what they are doing?
Can anyone find anything positive to say? This thread is seriously depressing reading.
Not me! I used to think as things got worse we would collectively spring into action but now it just seems the billionaires are planning to fortify New Zealand and/or bugger off to space instead.
Political trends towards isolationism and non cooperation - ?fuelled by public stress and worry about lifestyle compromises? - are also a barrier to the level of change we need to be making.
On a practical level, we could start properly taxing waste (without disproportionately affecting lower incomes), make local public transport free, ban the sale of peat based compost and non sustainable timber products and invest properly in a low energy house building programme.
How on earth do we turn around people's expectations though?
I am also sure that it’s one of the only things I can do individually (short of killing myself or becoming a hermit) which has a real impact in terrms of reducing carbon emissions.
I hear this kind of thing a lot from vegans, and I think it's a often a bit of a cop out. I think being vegan is a good thing, but I don't think that means you can claim that you need a mobile phone, laptop, car, nice outdoor gear etc That's not to say you have to be a hermit either, it's all a sliding scale.
We are all contributing to environmental destruction just by existing, and even not eating meat, desirable as it may be, is still pretty much fiddling around at the edges.
I would happily ban industrial meat/dairy production in an instant, but it would be deeply unpopular when McDonalds costs £25 a pop or whatever
Sounds great. I have no issue with environmental legislation, if it actually does what it is supposed to. Unfortunately, most of what is around at the moment seems to have the message "carry on as before, but be happy that all the new stuff you buy is now sustainable^tm!"
I think being vegan is a good thing
I always felt that veganism was the rebellious teenager of vegetarianism 😕
@twrch
Yes, the market finds a way to subvert pretty much everything we do unfortunately. It does seem as though there is only a small part of the population willing or able to make the choices and changes required, I don't know how we can resolve it.
For those interested in future climate, the IPCC Sixth assessment report WG1 (the Physical Science Basis) will be released on Monday: https://www.ipcc.ch/assessment-report/ar6/ which will give the state-of-the-science understanding of the Earth's future. The what we need to do about it will follow in later WG reports.
not eating meat, desirable as it may be, is still pretty much fiddling around at the edges
You’re confusing a plant-based diet with veganism maybe. Veganism (by definition, not in all cases) is more about personal ethics and lifestyle.
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
But people (anyone, not just vegans) choosing a plant-based diet even is only ‘fiddling around the edges’ inasmuch as most people are still shovelling meat and dairy like it’s going out of fashion.
It ain’t the be all and end all either, I agree, but that’s near to strawman argument. So many of this thread’s arguments are cartoonish/polarised in nature, ie this vs that, this extreme vs that extreme.
Data is helpful. I’d like to see this tackled (or refuted) for instance:
Researchers found that the companies’ emissions are reaching dangerous levels due to unregulated growth and governmental subsidies to ensure inexpensive production costs and supplies such as animal grain. The report calls for a reduction of greenhouse gases by 38 billion tons by 2050. The report states that many of the largest meat and dairy producers do not report emissions, and many are increasing production with no efforts in place to reduce their emissions. If production remains unregulated, by 2050, meat and dairy farms will account for 80 percent of the budgeted greenhouse gas emissions.
I think it’s a bit rich picking on ‘vegans’ as being ‘cop-outs’. I do know a few (married to one) and IMO they are definitely among the people most likely to be lobbying governments as well as making ethical/sustainable personal choices and ‘sacrifices’. Ironically, they are also the least militant when it comes to picking on other people at the table for their dietary choices. ymmv, as will some noisy activists.
https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/meat-and-dairy-surpass-oil-companies-largest-pollutants
I listened to a BBC environmental podcast recently, where one of the contributors said that the best thing that can happen in the UK is for everybody to do something to change their 'ways' rather than a few people doing everything, and to me that makes good sense.
Nobody I asking us all to become 'Greta',or to live in a cave.
Examples were:
- Change immediately to a renewable energy tariff- it will send a message to the power companies that we no longer want them to burn fossil fuels. If enough people do this, they will have to change.
- Reduce the amount you drive/fly. Think 'is this journey essential, or can I do a similar activity more locally
- eat less meat (not necessarily no meat, just less)
Turn your thermostat down a small amount. Save yourself some money by wearing a jumper (your house/office doesn't need to be cold, just not 23C..)
If everyone did this, it would make a sizeable difference, without really reducing the quality of life.
My addition to this would be to buy less 'things' (which might also mean you don't need to work so many hours to pay for them!) E.g. do you REALLY need a soundbar to 'improve' your television sound, does your phone REALLY need to be replaced. Does your 2 year old car REALLY need replaced?
And being an mtb forum.. Will a new handlebar, crank, gps, carbon wheelset etc REALLY make your ride more enjoyable. Is your ride miserable with your existing kit, or are you just trying to look cool to others?
Individual small changes will help, and we don't need government intervention to make thuis happen. Don't worry about your neighbours in their big SUV - if more people stop buying them (or keep their existing cars for longer), the sooner car manufacturers will stop making those type of vehicles!
@p7eaven - apologies, that should of said 'one of' The biggest contributor to global warming/climate change is meat
Can anyone find anything positive to say?
Its Friday and I'm going to the pub 😀
I hear this kind of thing a lot from vegans
🙂
@p7eaven this is from the conclusion of the report which your article references:
Farmers can and should, if stable markets and decent prices are guaranteed, supply moderate quantities of meat and milk into local food systems. But they do not enjoy these conditions. And instead of having to bear the costs of intensifying their emissions to protect the growth agendas of the big meat and dairy companies, farmers can, with the support of public programmes, shift to agroecological practices and mixed farming systems that can lower the emissions and overall environmental footprints of their farms, as well as provide much better living conditions for animals.
I can't really argue with any of it but it doesn't seem to be suggesting we have to eliminate meat eating completely.
I think it’s a bit rich picking on ‘vegans’ as being ‘cop-outs’. I do know a few (married to one) and IMO they are definitely among the people most likely to be lobbying governments as well as making ethical/sustainable personal choices and ‘sacrifices’. Ironically, they are also the least militant when it comes to picking on other people for their dietary choices. ymmv
I actually agree with all that but I still think there's a bit of cognitive dissonance going on with people who don't eat meat/dairy sometimes thinking that it gives them a free pass on other stuff like owning the latest mobile phone or whatever. I know lots of vegans though, and I don't expect them all to be perfect.
I can’t really argue with any of it but it doesn’t seem to be suggesting we have to eliminate meat eating completely.
That wasn’t my argument. I wasn’t making the comparison I was just refuting the ‘cop-out’ accusation.
My point was that (anyone) choosing not to eat meat (and dairy) could only realistically be viewed as ‘fiddling around the edge’ because the vast majority of us are shovelling it and chucking it (meat and dairy) like it’s going out of fashion, and also the governments are subsidising this behaviour/culture around agriculture.
I’ll certainly agree that some (many?) plant-based dieters (or vegans) may have ‘cognitive dissonance’ about owning smartphones but isn’t that just the ‘well, you think you’re so bloody perfect’ stramwan? Did we get GHG/pollution figures for smartphones vs meat and dairy industry? Whataboutism needs data unless it’s just a cute phrase to smack the chops of stereotypes?
Careful, you'll be accused of killing granny!
That aside, you've described my position perfectly.
that should of said ‘one of’ The biggest contributor to global warming/climate change is meat
I would have said its more about consumerism than defining a single cause.
that report will be a sobering read ahsat, they always are.
yep, the world's in a state. have we gone past the tipping point? quite possibly. but that doesn't need to stop you from thinking and acting positively about this stuff. make a list, just a few small things, give them a try. if that works, add more stuff to it.
how about a career change to something that might help more?
eat less meat, dairy and fish?
not fly?
give up some of my time to some useful local projects?
next time there's an election, of any sort, vote for whoever has the strongest environmental credentials?
you don't want to do any of those things? fine. find some stuff that helps that will work better for you instead. anything is better than nothing, and anything is better than slagging others for not doing x, y and z (or indeed slagging them off for doing x, y and z).
the reason i will keep trying to do the best i can is because even if i never get to see it, there is still a better chance for a better future for someone if i try to do the right things, as opposed to doing nothing (or worse). if i can convince a few people along the way, even better. if its not enough, then i've done my best.
this idea that we all somehow need to "solve" climate change causes decision paralysis. we can't solve it. its happening. all we can do is try to change our behaviour where we can to try and help minimise the effects. if enough people do it, i hope that governments and business will follow.
Dont forget, all you vegan and plant based guys are apparently going to live 10-20% longer than us meat eaters. Have you considered this in your calculations?
I’ll certainly agree that some (many?) plant-based dieters (or vegans) may have ‘cognitive dissonance’ about owning smartphones but isn’t that just the ‘well, you think you’re so bloody perfect’ stramwan?
Kinda, I was mainly just refuting DazH's suggestion that unless you 'become a hermit or kill yourself' stopping eating meat and dairy is the only useful thing you can do. I have heard similar from other people and I'm not convinced it's very helpful.
Dont forget, all you vegan and plant based guys are apparently going to live 10-20% longer than us meat eaters.
They don't actually live any longer, it just seems like they do 😀
Dont forget, all you vegan and plant based guys are apparently going to live 10-20% longer than us meat eaters
Is that before the spaceship comes down to whisk them off to nirvana ?
Dont forget, all you vegan and plant based guys are apparently going to live 10-20% longer than us meat eaters. Have you considered this in your calculations?
<satire>They never do. There disgustang, and they also virtue signal by not having kids (morelike no one would have kids with them) or because soy turned them gay.</satire>
#satiredied
This thread has gone the way of all threads on climate change:
You, you there riding a bike to work. You think you’re so bloody perfect I can tell just by the fact that you are riding that stupid bicycle, virtue-signalling and making all of our lives more difficult, including your own.
I bet your mamil tights were made in China. So don’t lecture me about climate change. And did you know that 87.5% of all emissions* are because of 1. Work and 2. Traffic. Not only do you go to work but you are also holding up the traffic. You’ve been served. Keep your hands off my sausage etc
*Source: #madeup
A recent report found the majority of all soya (65%) comes from countries with high deforestation rates. ... "Without knowing it, we're eating meat and dairy products from animals fed on soy grown on deforested land in Brazil," said Mike Barrett, executive director of science and conservation at WWF-UK
Cattle arent the only thing eating soya 😉
This thread has gone the way of all threads on climate change:
Now who's doing the straw man arguments? 🙄
It's not just smartphones. It's anything containing semiconductors (and getting worse with circuit complexity). For something so tiny, those electronic devices take an almost unbelievable amount of resources and energy to manufacture. They are also not recyclable, in any meaningful sense of the word.
So that's also your Garmins, tablets, smart speakers, Zwift setup, wifi lightbulbs, drawer full of raspberry pis, car infotainment system, etc etc. In my opinion, any solution that claims to be "environmentally friendly" while involving any of the above is a crock.
It would be intersting to work out just how much energy it took to make those little smart energy meter screens, and how many fewer cups of tea you'd need to make to pay back that cost.
Edit For someone who works in the industry, I really seem to have caught a bit of a bee in my bonnet. Maybe I'm the new vegan!
i always find it interesting the counter arguments towards people that are trying to do something positive.
Your vegan.. pah, but you still have a new iphone.
You drive an elecric car.. pah, but you still eat meat.
You dont fly... pah, but you have a log burner.
Ok, so you can pick holes in what others are doing, but what are you doing to help your future, the worlds future, the future of your kids.... oh yeah, picking holes in what others are trying to achieve. AKA nothing.
Many a good point made in this thread, but as we know, the main cause of the situation we are in is us. Not enough of us willing to give up things up, make changes or sacrifices. Its such a shame that the human race is so selfish (we all are in our own ways, i am not saying i am any better than anyone else, before someone tries to pick holes in my random words on the internet).
Or that folks are so closed minded that giving something new a try is so alien to them.
For example the meat and milk trade have done an amazing job of convincing us we need to consume these products to survive. Whereas the reality is we dont. Its the best marketing ever! (the only species to consume milk outside of infancy... and its not even our own milk... grim)
They don’t actually live any longer, it just seems like they do 😀
🤣🤣🤣
I've a long way to go... but...
- not got on a plane for 15 years now
- dropped meat down to once a fortnight
- changed career path for a lower paid one that doesn't have a daily drive
...still lots to do, and will never be perfect... but we don't need anyone to be perfect, we just need everyone to make adjustments... but many won't, partly because they compare themselves to others that won't. So it requires more government intervention if we have any chance of meeting their own "targets", never mind actually act now, rather than at some point between now and some target date chosen to fall in the distant future... after the people currently in government have long gone and are being paid nicely by third parties for having ignored calls for stronger action when they were in power.
Ok, so you can pick holes in what others are doing, but what are you doing to help your future, the worlds future, the future of your kids…. oh yeah, picking holes in what others are trying to achieve. AKA nothing.
Fair enough, I suppose I should leave the vegans alone, as long as they let me eat my sustainably-sourced meat and don't demand all pastures get sown with something silly like biofuel crops.
My issue is not those who have made their own choices about what they consider suitably sustainable and environmentally friendly, it's what will actually happen with the current "official" line of what is "sustainable" and the corresponding legislative changes. I see the net result of this being - we will be ever-more dependent on imported goods which will be carefully branded as "CO2 neutral" or whatever. All while making minimal changes in any environmental impact.
Your vegan.. pah, but you still have a new iphone.
You drive an elecric car.. pah, but you still eat meat.
You dont fly… pah, but you have a log burner.Ok, so you can pick holes in what others are doing, but what are you doing to help your future, the worlds future, the future of your kids…. oh yeah, picking holes in what others are trying to achieve. AKA nothing.
I do plenty to try and help thanks, still lots more to do though. Stop trying to make everything so black and white/polarised. It's not unreasonable to point out that veganism alone won't save us. It is unreasonable to use that as an argument for doing nothing.
And here we have a Climate Minister flying around the globe for "important meetings".. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58112621This Government don't really do irony do they. Maybe they think it's the opposite of crease-y.
@grum - that wasnt aimed at you, or anyone in particular, its the common feeling i get when discussing climate change and what can be done. Whether that's with Randoms on the internet or with friends/work colleagues/people in real life.
i am sure you are doing lots, as i feel i am, as i hope many are.
But there seems to be this attitude or culture of instead of congratulating people on their efforts, we pick holes, say 'well its not enough' or generally take the p1ss. its a sorry state of affairs.
And its the mindset of 'making a little change isnt worth it' that really grinds my gears. As if the 56 million of us on this little island all made a little change, things would be better.
We all have different moral, environmental and ethical compasses tho, so more fool me thinking everyone would want to do their bit.
Think far more people talk about bacon and processed meat beige foods than those who talk about being vegan 😉
its the common feeling i get when discussing climate change and what can be done. Whether that’s with Randoms on the internet or with friends/work colleagues/people in real life.
Ah ok yup I'd agree that is the prevaling attitude 🙁
The billionaire class know what is coming.
Sure I've read about all this somewhere...
ah yes, here we go:
‘The Earth was dying. Killed by the pursuit of money’ — rereading Ben Elton’s Stark as prophecy
First published in 1989, Elton’s debut novel offered a doubly prophetic vision. First, his depiction of environmental destruction. Second, his vision of high-stakes private space exploration.
The world of Elton’s Stark is ruled by a shadowy ultra-rich cabal (akin to the Bilderberg Group), known as the Stark Conspiracy. Members of Stark have long been aware their profit-seeking activities have caused irrevocable environmental damage. They realise the Earth’s “vanishing point”, a scenario of total environmental collapse, is imminent.
The novel begins with the world facing a mass extinction event:
The earth was dying. To be more specific, the earth was being killed. Done to death by its fond owners. Killed by the pursuit of money. For the men gathered round the table it was utterly frustrating to have inherited the earth and then have the damn thing die on you.
Rereading Elton’s dystopian fiction today is unsettling. His prediction the world would be ruled, or rather owned, by the ultra-rich is closer to reality than fiction.
In 2019, months before the Australian bushfire crisis, the United Nations observed that around 1 million plant and animal species were threatened with extinction. Californian bushfires recently ravaged 4 million hectares of land, double the 2019 record.
That we are moving closer to a vanishing point is no longer confined to the realm of fiction. The last decade was one of the hottest on record.
In Stark, Elton predicts how deforestation will lead to irreversible salinisation of the landscape:
Now the trees are gone and Western Australia — like many hot parts of the world where surface evaporation is speedy and the forests have been cleared — faces a terrible problem with the salt of the earth.
The most unnerving similarity between Elton’s novel and the world of today is the speed at which the effects of climate change and environmental degradation take place.
Species of animals that were not meant to die out until mid twenty-first century were already extinct. Trees were proving far less resilient against acid ‘die-back’ than had been hoped.
So, Elton’s dual depictions of global environmental destruction and space colonisation by the rich were light years ahead of their time. Yet the novel ends with a weary indictment of society’s unwillingness to make environmental change:
Too much money was involved, it simply wasn’t economical. Nothing had been done and now the reckoning was upon them all.
Elton’s vision is scarily poignant when re-read today. The book exemplifies the quote by Frederic Jameson:
It is easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism.
its the common feeling i get when discussing climate change and what can be done. Whether that’s with Randoms on the internet or with friends/work colleagues/people in real life.
Ah ok yup I'd agree that is the prevailing attitude 🙁
Ok, so you can pick holes in what others are doing, but what are you doing to help your future,
I do quite a bit but all by accident rather than based on environmental choices
Vegetarian for last 40 years (not killing animals rather than environment)
Not been in plane for 20 years (have a lot of animals so don't go on holidays)
Drive about 3,000 miles per year (working at home more and that was most of my driving)
Kinda, I was mainly just refuting DazH’s suggestion that unless you ‘become a hermit or kill yourself’ stopping eating meat and dairy is the only useful thing you can do.
I don't have the figures to hand (I'll try and find them though) but I think it's fairly well established that the only really impactful individual actions you can take are going vegan/plant-based/whatever and giving up flying. Compared to those two everything things else is neglibible in terms of CO2/methane emissions. There are plenty of other issues related to the meat industry too such as land usage, habitat destruction, water pollution, soil erosion, destruction of the rain forests etc (and that's ignoring the animal exploitation/welfare issues) that it's such a no-brainer that continuing to consume the products of the meat and dairy industry is less of an act of ignorance or personal preference and more like a conscious decision to conspire in your own destruction. It also has the benefit of being the easiest thing you can change as well.
The billionaire class know what is coming.
You can go down a rabbit hole on this subject, but the fact that they are planning ahead is undeniable..
https://onezero.medium.com/survival-of-the-richest-9ef6cddd0cc1
For example the meat and milk trade have done an amazing job of convincing us we need to consume these products to survive. Whereas the reality is we dont. Its the best marketing ever! (the only species to consume milk outside of infancy… and its not even our own milk… grim)
We've been eating meat and drinking milk for hundreds of years. Nor sure marketing departments existed 1000 years ago. There just wasn't as many of us around back then so it was sustainable.
Logan's Run is what we need - but perhaps 40 years of living like kings rather than 30!
We used to do a lot of things that we dont any more. Its a shame we have evolved from no longer raping and pillaging, but haven't managed to evolve from eating sentient beings and drinking the milk that was designed for a calf.
We no longer glamorise cigarettes, but an industry that does more harm to the planet and arguably peoples health goes without scrutiny or censorship. Its an odd world we live in.
We’ve been eating meat and drinking milk for hundreds of years.
is that all?
best facebook commemt I've read about the weather is all the crazy lightning is because of wind farms taking all the energy out of the atmosphere...
There is no doubt that the increasing amount of energy present in the climate system is causing wider swings in weather patterns for us in our previously secure northern haven. Long, hot dry spells; then when it does rain, it does so with a fierceness that is relatively new to us in the UK.
I fear for my two sisters' growing up kids and my 2 brother in laws' families. All of these younger folk will have a very different world around them by the time they make it to 50, if they manage that far.
Having become aware of significant environmental problems as a student in the early 80's, my then wife and I decided not to start a family and I'm glad we didn't; my two sisters have produced 3 between them and adopted another. So numbers are stable, ish.. But we as a rich western society were already by then consuming far more than a sustainable portion of resources, way before modern electronics, superfluous smart tech & power useage tipped the balance much further the wrong way, destroying much of the gains from cutting out some of the most harmful habits.
Luxury is not having the latest and bestest of everything; it is often to be found in good company, in the happiness of friends and in shared experiences. In the satisfaction of a personal day well spent.
We all have to do every step that we can possibly cope with; working from home, travelling much less for work and outside work, by all means other than self-propelled. Buy local, re-use and recycle. Walk places; might take a while but can be fulfilling on its own. Keep that older car and actually look after it properly so that it lasts longer. Go to the farm shop by bike once a week; broccoli might cost you an 20p extra a head but if that promotes the farmshop to stock more stuff from local producers, all the better.. I do this occasionally, biking with a trailer and load up. It's great phys.
Yes, avoid eating lots of meat and dairy. Or for that matter, imported soya products; the market for UK grown soy is finally making progress. We already do this but could probably do more. Look where your food comes from; if it's mange tout from Kenya or Honduras, it has been air freighted. I'd love to see that practice banned.
Consume less, in every way.
Wherever possible, I scavenge firewood from deadfall. Once it has fallen off a tree, it's going back into the environment as CO2 whatever happens, so if it reduces our dependancy on heating oil even a little, that's a benefit. Buy bikes for the long term; definitely no carbon frames. Think about it, do you really need that blingtastic enduro wagon to bimble about the local woods, or is what you already have actually more than enough to have a ball on..?
God, what a preacher I am. I ain't perfect but I am doing my best and at my advanced years, the steps I take aren't going to help me. I probably will not witness the sea level rise by 2-3m in my lifetime. But the next generation may well, making many major cities uninhabitable while pushing tens of millions of people into forced migrations. Maybe we can hold this off a bit longer......
definitely no carbon frames.
Deep in a big post that I agree with for the most part, there is this.
For 2-3 kilos of carbon vs 2-3 kilos of aluminium, that will get used weekly for many years, why is carbon so bad?
(Said as the owner of 2 alu frames)
Climate change is real. And it is a wicked problem - keeping under 1.5 warming is a tall order now and requires systemic change not just individual change - so it is really easy to get stuck in a mindset of 'what I do doesn't matter', which politicians feed off and just perpetuates the issue. The reality is that as rich (on a global scale) westerners there is a LOT we can do as individuals. Top 5 :
1) plant-rich diet. beef for special occasions (christmas turkey level of special)
2) switch your pension and any other investments to ethical funds with a specific 1.5 degree-aligned mandate
3) drive less, go electric as soon as you can afford to
4) proper insulation + electric heating + green tariff
5) get activist - write to your MP. Vote Green in all elections. You don't have to agree with all the policies of the Green party (I certainly don't) but by voting Green you are saying that environment (and climate change) is top of your list and signalling to the mainstream parties that environment is what it takes to get your vote. What we need is the mainstream parties to incorporate environment, voting Green (even if they are going to lose) sends the signal that that is where the votes are. (only exception is if you have a v enlightened local representative of a mainstream party already)
And for a bonus 6) spread the word. Make it normal to be concerned and to be doing what you can.
I think all of us on here could do those things and it would start to make the change.
Vegetarian for last 40 years (not killing animals rather than environment)
Not been in plane for 20 years (have a lot of animals so don’t go on holidays)
Drive about 3,000 miles per year (working at home more and that was most of my driving)
Very commendable. As anyone would agree.
I eat meat about twice a week. I eat a fair bit of pasta and have a cheese habit.
I've not been in a plane for 35 years
I dont drive, have never driven, nor do I take the bus or train, at least for the last 7 years, and prior maybe once a week.
Apparently not as commendable.
Lets look at the case for mass vegetarianism of the UK.
What would be required to feed 65 million people as in the arable land we would need ?.
How would we tend those farms, how many people would be required to sow and harvest ?.
Would this sowing an harvesting be done by hand or by machine ?.
Where would we get the fuel for the machinery if used ?.
Where would this gigantic workforce live in order to be accessible to the farming land we need ?.
How would this produce be distributed and by what means would it be transported ?.
How would this transportation and distribution be paid for, the operators, the drivers.
How many are required to distribute and transport enough vegetarian foodstuffs to satisfy the population.
With the loss of other industry, given we now need a great deal of people to work on these... lets call it 'collective farms' how would the country function in other industries like manufacturing of clothes, televisions etc.
How would we pay for those industries ?.
etc
etc
etc
Vegetarian is a hobby for some to indulge in,but it is unsuitable economically for the whole country to adopt. It can only really come about as a lifestyle if everyone else works as before to enable it for the few.
grum
Full Member
We need to dramatically reduce the earth’s population.I really fear for my boy’s future TBH. :-/
So is this a threat? 😆 Anyone phoned the polis?
local farmers are growing far more barley than wheat recently due to lower wheat yields, it's funny the Mesopotamians civilization collapse was "foretold" with a shift from wheat to barley (though that may well have been due to the alkalinization of the soil rather than climate change).
What would be required to feed 65 million people as in the arable land we would need ?.
Not a direct answer but there’s this claim;
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/mgMbDZhZ/636295-CD-9261-4110-A01-B-93-B8178-D02-A4.pn g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/mgMbDZhZ/636295-CD-9261-4110-A01-B-93-B8178-D02-A4.pn g"/> [/img][/url]
https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets
Vegetarian is a hobby for some to indulge in,but it is unsuitable economically for the whole country to adopt.
Can you explain clearly with evidence your workings to reach this conclusion. Certainly what you posted above wasn’t clear nor evidenced.
I’m certain an animal is a very poor protein generator compared to a plant.
We've spent too long arguing about it all and now it's most likely too late. Individuals have done their best with recycling, conserving energy etc but as a whole the human species has not really cared. There's no point arguing about small and medium changes, it's now time for wholesale alterations to the very basics in how humans interact with the world. But it won't happen. The world is starting to burn, might as well stock up on marshmallows and enjoy the final ride.
I certainly wouldn’t want to having children now.
I've been telling friends and family since my mid-20's that I don't want any kids of my own as I don't want the responsibility of their upbringing, which is true. But the second reason is that I couldn't be responsible for causing a new human life to enter this future we have created. The world will most likely be ruined by human actions in my lifetime so why would I force someone with no choice in the matter to enter that future? I've got nothing against anyone else having kids, one of them could even end up being one who finds part of any solution, but I'll happily do my part to bring population growth down.
So is this a threat? 😆 Anyone phoned the polis?
Hilarious 🙄
So is this a threat? 😆 Anyone phoned the polis?
It appears so...
Can you explain clearly with evidence your workings to reach this conclusion. Certainly what you posted above wasn’t clear nor evidenced.
Well can you first find some charts that relate to the UK only, and not the entire planet.
We'll take it from there then.
Waiting....
I didn't make the claim, you did. But I can just take it you neither have evidence nor even unevidenced workings to reach the statement in question.
To repeat...
I will keep coming back to this thread periodically to say that Government action is required ( and without it we are doomed) – education, regulation, taxation and prohibition.
Pushing the responsibilities onto individual people’s actions is a way of diverting blame and avoiding action by politicians who don’t want to do unpopular stuff
The most environmentally positive thing an individual can do is agitate to government action and vote for parties which support a properly green agenda
Arguing about individual actions is pointless and has all those who profit from lack of action rubbing thier hands with glee
Whilst all you lot argue we are ****ed
Thats my personal opinion(remember the free speech thing ? 😉 ) you are the one attempted to refute such a notion with charts and quotes. I pointed out those relate to the whole world, not the UK as i was referring to( "Lets look at the case for mass vegetarianism of the UK."). Now you've got all defensive as you cannot find data to substantiate your initial claims and are going on the attack.
But all things aside, and lets just look at it not as a statement of fact but a logical look given the perimeters of my quoted question. Can the UK sustain total vegetarianism.
I say not. my point out that to do so will need to utilize a great deal of the UK's potential workforce and probably all the land we have and can turn over to cultivation.
I point out the logistics of that aren't being appreciated, because its untenable to just throw the notion of mass vegetarianism out there without being to back up the claims.
Anyone who follows a vegetarian diet,are perfectly entitled to do so. This is freedom of choice.
But it is not suitable for everyone in the UK to adopt or be forced into enmasse, and not the lifestyle others would choose and that is their freedom of choice.