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The only people who were carrying these pagers were sworn enemies of Israel.
You need to brush up on why Hezbollah was formed in the first place.
It was specifically to end Israel's illegal occupation of South Lebanon. Despite numerous United Nations resolutions no one did anything to cease Israel's illegal occupation until Hezbollah was established - they successfully achieved their goal and drove Israel out of Lebanon.
I know! Since he took power by way of a military coup and ruled the country as a despotic dictatorship, the peace-loving majority of Israelis have been powerless to do anything about his tyranny
I really feel for them. It must break their hearts daily having to witness all this
Not helpful in the slightest.
A source close to Hezbollah?
Yes..unfortunately I've not yet had the chance to get over there myself to verify the mass casualties
Let's be honest here, Israel has a track record of not giving a shit about collateral damage to innocents so I doubt it really figured in their minds when coming up with the idea
And one look at the video of one of them going off in a shop (on the bbc site) with a kid standing about a yard away make it pretty easy to understand how indiscriminate this attack could potentially be
It’s cunning, desperate, dangerous and impressive
Looking at it dispassionate, it's all of these. But it's backing the Israelis into a war on multiple front at a time when they are losing their international support and gambling with the future of their nation and people, which is just insane.
The other thing coming from all of this is the Taiwanese pager company whose kit was apparently intercepted/exploded, Gold Apollo, have likely had their reputation shat on beyond repair.
Apparently they were made by another company (BAC in Hungary) but using Gold Apollo's brand name, so GA have nothing directly to do with it.
Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of this, it has to be the most precision strike in history.
Let’s be honest here, Israel has a track record of not giving a shit about collateral damage to innocents so I doubt it really figured in their minds when coming up with the idea
I don't see why both can't be true. Yes there was collateral damage and yes I doubt the planners cared much, but it's still (relatively) extraordinarily precisely targeted.
To lighten this up a bit…
what if they do the same to vapes? Kill all the Cherry stinking vapour inhalers but at the risk of blowing children’s faces off…
Makes you think, doesn’t it?!?!?
Looking at it dispassionate, it’s all of these. But it’s backing the Israelis into a war on multiple front at a time when they are losing their international support and gambling with the future of their nation and people, which is just insane.
I couldn't agree more.
Although to be fair Israel doesn't have a lot of options now, the whole zionist project is collapsing and I am not sure how much of it can be salvaged. Which I guess is possibly how Netanyahu sees the situation too.
There is a highly respected former IDF general who was previously head of the military colleges in Israel, and also Israeli military ombudsman, who feels that unless there is a huge and immediate change of direction Israel will collapse within a year.
I would post links to his views on the matter but it is probably too off topic for this thread and more suitable for the other thread.
extraordinarily precisely targeted
Do you have any information that the people killed or injured were the intended targets? Israel will claim that they only hit their intended targets, but that's also what they say when bombing schools and hospitals and slaughtering women and children in the tens of thousands.
extraordinarily precisely targeted
Not really, to me it smacks of desperation. They had no way of knowing who had the pagers when they exploded, or where they were, or who they were with at the time. To my mind its only a small step away from out-right terrorism - If the definition includes non combatants and is designed primarily to install fear in a population, both accusations you could easily lay at the feet of Mossad in this instance.
Israel have enough examples thought-out all their fighting with both Hamas and Hezbollah that this sort of audacious operation often achieves precisely the opposite outcome to what's intended.
Remind me never to order any electronics from wish.il.
To my mind its only a small step away from out-right terrorism
I wouldnt even call it a small step
I wonder what it would it have been called if all the mobile phones of the Israeli defence force reservists had blown up in a coordinated attack whilst they were sitting down for breakfast with their families..because that's a direct equivalent of what just happened.
Although tbf, according to some people apparently you can only be a 'terrorist' if you are brown...
They had no way of knowing who had the pagers when they exploded, or where they were, or who they were with at the time.
That maybe correct but it seems hardly likely that pagers used by racist, fascist, terrorists, are going to carried by innocent civilians.
Why would they want them? For what purpose?
I still stand by my statement that is a very precisely targeted strike against their enemies.
It's terrorism full stop. Reading some of the BBC reports and the injuries are grim.
What about the ones sitting next to them when a bomb explodes? Not really thought this one through have you..
I watched the video of the explosion in the supermarket. It's very small and didn't appear to injure anyone else?
I'm sure there has been some innocents injured during these events, it's inevitable.
However, how many innocent lives have been saved if it prevents Hezbollah organising and co-ordinating their terror attacks?
Hezbollah clearly state that they will not stop until the State of Israel is eliminated. They are are racists, fascists and misogynist's. They are Holocaust deniers to boot.
The girl killed was 10 year old Fatima Jaafar Abdullah.
https://www.instagram.com/doamuslims/p/DABmigRotbQ/
The innovation and ingenuity of this attack is probably the likes we've never seen before, an entire shipment modified without anyone knowing, 5000 items turned around in what appears to be a small window, i'd be more prone to guessing that it was completely swapped over for 5000 made by Israel, as it's not just a simple case of sticking explosives in, all pagers will have had to be turned into detonators, with minimal risk of accidental initiation, not an easy task by the sounds of it.
For this type of operation though, it's basically Israel publicly stating they can get to the entire core of hezbollah and what is basically a terrorist attack by Israel, i don't see this as Israel getting desperate, they're getting more daring, and nobody seems to care around the planet.
Hezbollah clearly state that they will not stop until the State of Israel is eliminated.
Tbh I not going to stop opposing the apartheid state until it is no more.
It was built on a lie....... "A land without a people for a people without land"
The idea that any part of the Fertile Crescent hadn't yet been inhabited by anyone is of course ludicrous. As is the claim that US or UK Jews, for example, don't own any land and have to travel thousands of miles to find some.
it has to be the most precision strike in history.
Or one of the lowest precision strikes in history?
Precision means identifying specific targets and accurately hitting only those targets. Distributing thousands of explosive charges to unknown destinations and simultaneously detonating them with no confirmation of their location seems like the opposite of that.
how many innocent lives have been saved
You are clearly completely deluded if you think this act will save innocent lives, rather than escalate the conflict and cost far more.
Or one of the lowest precision strikes in history?
Precision means identifying specific targets and accurately hitting only those targets. Distributing thousands of explosive charges to unknown destinations and simultaneously detonating them with no confirmation of their location seems like the opposite of that.
I'm going to guess that the assumption is that anyone buying a new pager in 2024 is using one for the express interest of coordinating the actions of their [freedom fighter/guerilla/terrorist] group outwith the prying eyes of the IDF (or CIA et al).
i don’t see this as Israel getting desperate, they’re getting more daring, and nobody seems to care around the planet.
The security services of very country in the region that opposes Iran will care a lot - this is a big blow to Iran and they'll be thrilled to see Hezbollah weakened like this. Iran will now be utterly paranoid about how their supply chain was compromised so badly and their proxies won't trust technology - any internet connected device could have been hacked and be listening or be a bomb waiting to go off so there'll be mountains of electronics getting binned as we speak because Hezbollah will be too scared to use it.
Precision means identifying specific targets and accurately hitting only those targets. Distributing thousands of explosive charges to unknown destinations and simultaneously detonating them with no confirmation of their location seems like the opposite of that.
Here’s a report from the LA Times - nobody has a clue so far how the pagers were modified, but it wasn’t indiscriminate, it was known Hezbollah had adopted pagers because cell phones were too easy to track, so this was specifically targeting an organisation who had recently adopted pagers. Very much asymmetric warfare.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-09-18/lebanon-pager-explosion-explainer
Indiscriminately bombing civilian targets because it’s believed that Hezbollah might be using a basement or there might be a tunnel nearby is not precision targeting.
From the video of the guy in the market, and pictures of the exploded pagers, the explosions were relatively small and people quite close to the carriers seemed to have been uninjured.
Not excusing it and the risks of it going horribly wrong on a much larger scale, but this is way more precise than rockets and bombs aimed at targetting a few thousand people.
Iran will now be utterly paranoid about how their supply chain was compromised so badly and their proxies won’t trust technology – any internet connected device could have been hacked and be listening or be a bomb waiting to go off so there’ll be mountains of electronics getting binned as we speak because Hezbollah will be too scared to use it.
Ah, the fuzzy-wuzzies always get panicky when they see the awesome power of white man's magic....... they are probably running around in circles screaming.
Or alternatively Hezbollah will see this as a massive lesson to be learnt and Iran will resolve to put more effort into electronic warfare.
they are probably running around in circles screaming.
They'll be rounding up suspects in the infiltration of their supply lines and subjecting them to some brutal interrogations to try and figure out how this happened. In the meantime, they won't trust any devices (the reason they were using pagers was because they didn't trust smartphones), so they'll be trying to figure out how to run their communications without using any modern electronics.
Wow. No need for that. It's called hyperbole, not racism.
subjecting them to some brutal interrogations to try and figure out how this happened.
Who will they be brutally interrogating? . Apparently the explosive material and extra circuit were installed during production in a factory in Europe.
I’m going to guess that the assumption is that anyone buying a new pager in 2024 is using one for the express interest of coordinating the actions of their [freedom fighter/guerilla/terrorist] group outwith the prying eyes of the IDF (or CIA et al).
Nice to know my colleagues are considered fair game.
FWIW our company emergency schemes are pager driven because they work.
I see Iran has been brought into the conversation again as justification for Israel's terrorism. IMO Israel is a far bigger threat to the west, to peace and security than Iran ever has been.
Breaking news: now it's possibly exploding walkie-talkies
Seems they were bought at around the same time as the pagers.
i don’t see this as Israel getting desperate, they’re getting more daring, and nobody seems to care around the planet.
People do care but as soon as you publicly criticise Israel, a carefully orchestrated global "hasbara" network engages to shut you down, i.e. chilling effect.
Just look at what happens when key UN / EU figures pipe up with any form of criticism. The AS card gets delt and they back down.
No end to this madness other than a terrible regional war, that could engulf the world. Ironic that the BBC drama Threads is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year. In that show it all kicked off in Iran.
FWIW our company emergency schemes are pager driven because they work.
Unless you received a pager from Hezbollah, you're not affected. Israeli agents seem to have infiltrated the supply chain and intercepted a batch of pagers being sent to Hezbollah and then put explosives in them. If your pagers weren't in that Hezbollah shipment, they are just regular pagers.
There was apparently a second wave of explosions of walkie-talkies. Hezbollah will be dumping all their electronics after that. And they'll be working back through their supply chain to try and identify the Israeli agents.
...it wasn’t indiscriminate, it was known Hezbollah had adopted pagers because cell phones were too easy to track, so this was specifically targeting an organisation who had recently adopted pagers.
Someone delivered a big crate of pagers to Hezbollah PLC and then detonated them all simultaneously. When the pagers blew up, the bombers presumably had no specific information about whether the pagers were actually being carried, and if they were in use, exactly who was carrying each one, and who they were standing next to in the shop, or on the street or on the school run...
That is not a targeted attack, hence the reported range of casualties.
Who will they be brutally interrogating?
The agent that Mossad had got placed inside Hezbollah who ordered these particular pagers presumably. News seems to be that these particular devices' USP is that they've got user replaceable parts, like batteries etc. Someone in the organisation made sure it was these particular sorts of devices that were ordered. Maybe even persuaded the leadership that the explosive part was an "encryption device", so nothing gets looked at too closely
Someone delivered a big crate of pagers to Hezbollah PLC and then detonated them all simultaneously. When the pagers blew up, the bombers presumably had no specific information about whether the pagers were actually being carried, and if they were in use, exactly who was carrying each one, and who they were standing next to in the shop, or on the street or on the school run…
That is not a targeted attack, hence the reported range of casualties.
Of course it's a targeted attack, even without specific information, just with the usual lack of care towards who might be standing nearby.
Hezbollah specifically bought these for its members to use, in order to avoid Israeli tracking. They were to be used for Hezbollah purposes (ie, against Israel) which is a military/terrorist organization. Of course it's reasonable to assume that almost all of the devices would be on or near an active Hezbollah member when they explode.
No one here's defending whether this attack was done right. But to say it was completely indiscriminate or a terrorist attack is ridiculous.
War crime? Maybe. Terrorism? No.
Without going in to the full legalities of what is going on between states/other groups, I thought that weapons designed to deliberately and permanently maim rather than kill were very illegal.
Given 2738 of 2750 people targeted by this weapon have not been killed, it seems clear that maiming rather than killing was the intent. The pagers could have just been designed to be bricked on a command rather than explode.
(I am not commenting on whether it is a good or bad thing that those targeted have been taken out of action, just questioning whether a State can legally use weapons designed in this way)
Nice to know my colleagues are considered fair game.
FWIW our company emergency schemes are pager driven because they work.
well I stand corrected
What benefits do you find they have over the more modern alternatives?
or is it a “we’re in too deep to change our processes now” kind of arrangement?
Just look at what happens when key UN / EU figures pipe up with any form of criticism. The AS card gets delt and they back down.
Mossad use a bit more than the antisemitism card to shut up the International Criminal Court. More like blatant mafia style threats and blackmail :
According to accounts shared with ICC officials, he is alleged to have told her: “You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.”
The Mossad also took a keen interest in Bensouda’s family members and obtained transcripts of secret recordings of her husband, according to two sources with direct knowledge of the situation. Israeli officials then attempted to use the material to discredit the prosecutor.
Revealed: Israeli spy chief ‘threatened’ ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry
Unsurprisingly people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity tend to behave as would expect violent criminals to behave.
But to say it was completely indiscriminate or a terrorist attack is ridiculous.
I'm saying it was a poorly targeted attack, as demonstrated by the collateral damage that has been reported.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyl9048gx8t
Looks like day two is walkie talkies
(which would seem like the least secure means of communication, but if you've binned your pager yesterday, needs must)
.
The agent that Mossad had got placed inside Hezbollah who ordered these particular pagers presumably.
I am not sure why you think Mossad had to recruit anyone in Hezbollah. Presumably it was the Mossad agent/employee in the Hungarian factory where the pagers where manufactured, and the circuits and explosive material were installed, who were the critical person/s?
I can't see this causing long-term issues for Hezbollah. If Iran, and indeed Hezbollah itself, can mass produce drones then I fall to see why they wouldn't be able to mass produce pagers.
Pagers will simply have to be reclassified and be put in the same category as weapons, and manufactured in secure premises as presumably their missiles, drones, etc are.
There is undoubtedly a lesson to be learnt here by governments and military across the globe, not just Hezbollah
Could be an e-bike next with 650b wheels. So last year.
I can’t see this causing long-term issues for Hezbollah.
The amount of copium is off the charts. They've all had their bollocks blown off.
Israel has finally managed to defeat Hezbollah? Blimey
I'm leaving my mobile phone in the middle of a field tomorrow, just in case there's a day 3!
I’m saying it was a poorly targeted attack, as demonstrated by the collateral damage that has been reported.
And you’re telling me that no other attacks of any form, from any quarter, cause any collateral damage? Seriously? Get a grip.
Unless you received a pager from Hezbollah, you’re not affected. Israeli agents seem to have infiltrated the supply chain and intercepted a batch of pagers being sent to Hezbollah and then put explosives in them. If your pagers weren’t in that Hezbollah shipment, they are just regular pagers.
@thols2 WTAF has that got to do with the post I was replying to?
The post was saying that nobody in 2024 has a use for a pager outside of terrorism or other shady purposes.
well I stand corrected
What benefits do you find they have over the more modern alternatives?
or is it a “we’re in too deep to change our processes now” kind of arrangement?
They don't transmit so can be carried around sensitive electronic equipment.
They're intrinsically safe so long as you use an approved battery so can be used in DSEAR zones.
You're not reliant on a phone having signal or charge.
You don't have the same signal issues you do with mobile.
Any one fancy a wireless dropper ... I can only imagine the carnage that would cause if that goes off without warning.
This is going to get very messy.
Just yet more criminal acts to lay at the doors of the Israeli government led by Netanyahu, lets hope the ICC reports on Friday with an International arrest warrant for the prick
That maybe correct but it seems hardly likely that pagers used by racist, fascist, terrorists, are going to carried by innocent civilians.
Why would they want them? For what purpose?
I still stand by my statement that is a very precisely targeted strike against their enemies.
How do you feel about agents spreading nerve poisons on doorknobs? That’s a pretty precisely targeted strike, right?
We all know Russia won't accept any criminal acts but the West needs to stop Netanyahu as these are crimes. It has to stop.
We all know Russia won’t accept any criminal acts but the West needs to stop Netanyahu as these are crimes. It has to stop.
These attacks are war crimes, they will no doubt inflame tensions, but Hezbollahs rockets are even more indescriminate and 30,000+ Israelis have been evacuated from homes in northern Israel since Hezbollah started their latest wave of attacks.
I still stand by my statement that is a very precisely targeted strike against their enemies.
Innocent civilians including kids have been wounded and killed by the pagers, you can't send 1000s of explosive stuffed gadgets into a country and not expect collateral damage.
What's bonkers is that by nenetnayhus standards it was restrained
Pagers traditionally dont use rechargeable cells, but use AA cells.
There is an N cell available, same diameter as AA but half the length.......giving space for an explosive material.
Also, access to the POCSAG operating system has been gained and then the access to send the radio transmission as an 'all call'.
(Spent 5 years with a UK based pager manufacturer......well before all of this happened)
but Hezbollahs rockets are even more indescriminate
Certainly Israel has easy access to the most advanced precision weapons in the world (who would have thought it) but Hezbollah is currently building up an arsenal of Iranian manufactured precision missiles. Their ability to hit precise targets is likely to increase significantly in the near future.
This is going to get very messy.
Just yet more criminal acts to lay at the doors of the Israeli government led by Netanyahu, lets hope the ICC reports on Friday with an International arrest warrant for the prick
I think he was referring to this thread 😉
****in Religion again eh... FFS
There are international agreements banning the use of booby trapped items, the use of which constitute war crimes.
Israel are a signatory...
Netanyahu is a war criminal.
I am fairly sure that Netanyahu is a nonbeliever fossy, so I have no doubt that he would agree with your sentiments. Although the religious nutters in his far-right government I dare say wouldn't.
Netanyahu is a war criminal.
I don’t think we needed any exploding pagers to come to that conclusion. That threshold was passed quite some time ago
The Israelis are genocidal and just think they can do whatever the * they like with complete impunity
I used to work with an Israeli, who was and is an utter * and an avowed Zionist. I have him added on social media and his posts over the last 12 months has been a fascinating insight into what people like him think about all this
This is what he reposted yesterday. Hilarious, I’m sure you’ll agree. There were lots of laughing emoji’s as commments
They - the Zionists - are all genocidal monsters and I think we’re only just scratching the surface of what they’re prepared to do to wipe out their ‘enemies’, real or imagined, with little or no regard for the collateral damage they inflict
God only knows what they have to do before they get seriously taken to task about their murderous ambition
Starting another war seems to be a given
He’s just posted this. Yet more hilarity. Those zionists eh? They do like a laugh
A short piece taken from The Atlantic, the rest of the story is paywalled, but it gives a bit more background info:
Yesterday, pagers used by Hezbollah operatives exploded simultaneously in Lebanon and Syria, killing at least a dozen people and injuring thousands. Today brought another mass detonation in Lebanon, this time involving walkie-talkies. The attacks are gruesome and shocking. An expert told the Associated Press that the pagers received a message that caused them to vibrate in a way that required someone to press buttons to stop it. That action appears to have triggered the explosion. At a funeral in Beirut, a loudspeaker reportedly called for people to turn off their phones, illustrating a fear that anydevice could actually be a bomb, including the one in your pocket.
Don't fear the beeper......
And no one will be going to a Plant and Paige reunion......
Apparently a lot of the wounded will be particularly to face and eyes as the pagers bleeped first, so they were held up to be looked at. I’m guessing the numbers of those blinded etc will come to be known in the next few days. Horrendous.
I can’t see this causing long-term issues for Hezbollah
It's likely a prelude to an Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon, they've effectively cut off communication between Hezbollah fighters and with their c&c in the short-term so now would be the time to exploit that.
What benefits do you find they have over the more modern alternatives?
or is it a “we’re in too deep to change our processes now” kind of arrangement?
They use them in many factories as well. They're robust, simple and small, it buzzes, you read a short text message on screen, you put them away. Minimal distraction in a noisy/dangerous environment.
I think the term 'targeted' has been overused here 'profiled' is perhaps more apt.
The other thing that it raises is the question of when is an attack over a border, not an attack? If the IDF had simultaneously popped 1700 odd guided missiles into Lebanon all heading towards the best estimate location of a number of Hezbollah members it would have been called a military attack, and the high probability of collateral deaths would have drawn criticism.
This is only really different in that it uses a non-ballistic device and the explosive power of each device is much smaller. But it seems to have wrong footed the international community a fair bit, many of them seem unsure how to respond/comment on pager attacks despite it still being a clear escalatory action.
Seems like Israel's final solution to the Palestinian 'problem' was already very well planned.
And I use that phrase, with all its connotations, deliberately.
I'm bereft of hope. Netanyahu knows he can get away with genocide and he's doing it. Right now in 2024.
I’m bereft of hope. Netanyahu knows he can get away with genocide and he’s doing it. Right now in 2024.
My view as well. Of all the people to understand the horrors that entails, defies belief.