[Closed] Everest deaths

Me-Myself-&-I syndrome ... the death of others is irrelevant so long as own objective is achieved.

I agree. Especially when people are heading up. I remember watching a documentary about the 1996 disaster when someone said that even if you can't help, being with someone in their last moments counts for something.

I cant help as they will die and probably me as well = Stuff that, this has cost me a fortune and I have a summit to bag!

Could it be the reduced oxygen and physical exhaustion causing people to behave irrationally?

My gripe is with people passing on their way to the summit. If they are heading up they can't be that exhausted. It does seem that guides who probably feel the altitude less could turn groups around and help, but may feel pressured to get their clients to the top.

Could it be the reduced oxygen and physical exhaustion causing people to behave irrationally?

Possibly, but could it be of people who feel the need to say they've climbed the highest mountain in the world there is also higher percentage of kn*bs than in the average populace ?

I've a feeling that, as fewer climbers take more "tourists" up there, there'll be a greater proportion of people teetering on the edge of their capabilities who pretty much literally haven't the skills and aren't physically able to assist. One of these groups stopping might very well endanger multiple lives (?)

(I'm not a climber so this isn't snobbery - I'd be one of the walking zombies for sure)

I guess they could turn round a whole group but at what financial cost, I wonder ?

Why do people carry on climbing

that about sums it up

Would I leave someone in the death zone on everest. yip absolutely. would I leave someone lying around mugdock park to die, more than likely no.. hardly the same thing. It's surely not that hard to understand the difference?

It's surely not that hard to understand the difference?

nick1962 - Member
It's surely not that hard to understand the difference?

Go on humour me and explain the difference?

Here's an analogy for you: say a group are out walking in the serengeti without a gun or weapon, and a pride of lions decide you're breakfast, do you:

a, run like ****!

or

b, stop and help the slowest runner in your group fight of the lions!

Personally for me, there are times when self preservation will be the deciding factor in my actions! 😀

What bike do you ride Seosamh 77 ?
It's just in case I ever pass you as a "man down" in the Flux death zone so I know that I can safely ignore you and leave you to the lions of Carbeth 🙂

As Edmund Hillary effectively said.....When 30 amateurs who've paid thousands of pounds to be molly coddled up by sherpas pass you when your dying on the mountain......you know there's something wrong with how climbing and specifically Everest has turned out.

There should be a rule, if there's 30 odd people on the side of the mountain and one person dying then all of them should give up their ****ing ascents and take part in a group effort to bring that person down.

Sure if two people pass someone who's on their way to dying at 7,800 metres....then it's going to be hard to bring them down....but when those people are numbering in the dozens....bollocks.

The whole sport makes me sick, especially the companies that give the impression to amateur thrill seekers that their lives are in safe hands.

haven't the skills and aren't physically able to assist.

They shouldn't be on the mountain then.

Well said bwarrp and Mr Hilary.
I can't think of many greater achievements than saving another human life.
Except maybe setting up my gears to run smoothly without slipping or rubbing.

The air is so thin, you can barely think, stand or survive on your own.

Helping a climber who cannot walk and you're dead too.

Maybe a few climbers could help one person. Forget even
trying to carry someone on your own.

You know the risk before you even climb a dangerous peak.

I wouldn't leave anyone. But if I was going to die rescuing a numpty...
If I had 30 Sherpas, then a rescue of someones life is more important than climbing to the top etc.

Lots of gruesome pics of dead bodies on Everest sadly.

Some perspective from the actual mountaineering community:

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/everest_sucking_on_the_barrel

If I had 30 Sherpas, then a rescue of someones life is more important than climbing to the top etc

Maybe that's where the problem is. for most people they have paid their fee to a company to get them to the top. It's the company that takes the hit for th 30 Sherpas and maybe they can do it once but th third or fourth time it would close them down. If it is someone on their own team there fair enough but in another team it's a different matter.

The guy who died so famously in 2006 had tried to do it without paying for assistance to the very top which carries with it huge risks that can't automatically be transferred to those around - it's just not that sort of enviroment. The guy who was saved a few weeks later was saved partly because the team that saved him had the resources to be able to send up a team of a dozen Sherpas to get him down, not because the people who met him could get him down.

It might be good if every tracking organisation was forced to post a huge bond to cover the costs of potential rescues. Independents would also have to post that bond but there is the problem. Why should they have a barrier if they are willing to take the risk

Edit: nice link metalheart.

@metalheart, indeed, good linky there.

The issue is that as human beings typing on a bike forum, we are not in the situation ourselves, we try and put ourselves there and logically think we'd do the "right thing", not be callous, be nice, and help others. The truth is we don't really know as we aren't in that position. If you asked every person, before the went up Everest and in the comfort of their home, they'd all say the same as you... Yet in reality they then walk on by dying people. There's a reason for this and your kidding yourself if you think you'd do different. You don't know what you'd do, neither do I.

Good link metalheart.

Armchair Mountaineers - Climbing by the seat of your pants.

Well said ti_pin_man

There's a reason for this

yeah it's called 'summit fever' and it's one of the main reasons that people end up in trouble in the first place

Well said bwarrp and Mr Hilary.
I can't think of many greater achievements than saving another human life.
Except maybe setting up my gears to run smoothly without slipping or rubbing.

If you want to do some more hand-wringing, there's an great interview with Simone Moro - a seriously good mountaineer - on Planet Mountain:

[url= http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39597 ]http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39597[/url]

He's just canned an attempt on Everest followed by Lhotse without supplemental oxygen because the congestion on the mountain made it, in his judgment, too dangerous. Amusingly, he's a rather more sanguine about it than many of the armchair mountaineers here, despite having rather more reason to be, at least, a bit cross.

As far as Andy Kirkpatrick's piece goes, yes, but having spent a bit of time in Nepal, the bit that concerns me is the safety of Sherpas who are climbing purely for money to escape from a subsistence economy and are taking risks, not entirely of their own choosing, because of the huge commercial pressure that commercial guiding companies are under to get their rich clients to the top.

The Nepalese government isn't likely to regulate it, because they're desperate for foreign currency and Everest permits are a rich source of that. And the guiding companies are there, ultimately, to make money.

And lastly, you might think that deaths decrease the numbers of people aspiring to climb the big lump, but one British-based guiding company told me that the publication of Into Thin Air actually increased the number of people aspiring to summit the mountain, which takes us back neatly to Andy K.

Personally I have no interest in Everest. Ama Dablam, on the other hand, is stunning and a lot more affordable, but does seem to get ropes fixed all over it by guides. Oh well.

Andy Kirkpatrick is an absolute legend.

If you ever get the chance to go to one of his talks I would highly recommend it.

If you want a bit of perspective read Into thin air by Jon Krakauer he does do his usual trick of not letting the facts get in the way of a good tale but I agree with his conclusions to a large extent. Its also worth reading the climb by anatoli boukreev as well for what is probably closer to the chain of events.

There is a good book by Goran Kropp so did a self supported assent on Everest starting from Sweeden (cycle to base camp with all his gear then climb). His motivation was meant to be to counter the point of all the tour operates taking people up the mountain.

I am no great climber, but have summited, failed to summit and turned back due to illness of a climbing partner on peaks in the 5,500m to 6,500m range. I am no armchair mountaineer, consider myself a fairly cautious climber and definitely do not suffer from summit fever.
I would still say that to carry on ascending past someone who is dying is reprehensible. It seems that people will walk by rather than assess what the problem may be. without even stopping how can you assume you will die as well.
I have never been on a guided climb, but i find it hard to believe that the vast number of people on the mountain are capable of doing nothing. I would rather climb with a group of people that at the very least turned back en masse even if nothing could be done.

http://m.mirror.co.uk/article?id=843193/

Neither you me nor anyone else has any right to tell people what to do in circumstances that we don't and won't understand until confronted by them. Personally I wouldn't chose to put myself into a position whereby I have to decide whether I or someone else lives or dies. If however,I ever am I hope I make a decision I can live (or maybe die) with.

Injured climbers have been brought to safety in horrendous conditions on Everest; I'm thinking about the heroic actions of Anatoli Boukreev on the South Col in '96. More difficult would be bringing down an immobile climber from the upper mountain. The psychology probably goes something like this:

Oh an injured person, difficult to rescue
I'm a guided client and not able to organise a rescue - it's not my responsibility to help
But I am here to summit [walks on somewhat diminished]

Compare this to "touching the void" where Yates was completely committed to helping his injured friend Simpson despite massive risk to himself. He only cut the rope when it was clear that they would both be killed if he didn't.

The thing people walk past people dying in the street.

Half the appeal is 'climbing' in the Death Zone I would have thought.

It's easy to criticise but when you are at 8,000m with the pressure crushing you skull with splitting headaches it's not clear cut.

Everybody who is up there knows the risk.

andy K is indeed the man, caught his show last year, excellent stuff....

In the link above it mentions this chap Peter Kinloch who died in 2010, I can 100% see why they left him. Horrible decision that will haunt them for the rest oh their lives, but at least they are alive.

http://www.peterkinloch.co.uk/

http://www.everestnews.com/everest2010/summitclimbeverestnorth06012010.htm

[url= http://sometimes-interesting.com/2011/06/29/over-200-dead-bodies-on-mount-everest/ ]Interesting site[/url]

umm i dunno i maybe single minded, but the sort of people doing these climbs are probably educated at the same school as david cameron etc. ive come to find in life these sort of people are douches and probably will walk past someone so there fakebook status can be changed to, reached top of everest crack open the chardonay.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_for_the_record/swiss_records/Breaking_boundaries_one_perilous_face_at_a_time.html?cid=991910

It's easy to criticise but when you are at 8,000m with the pressure crushing you skull with splitting headaches it's not clear cut.

Read no way down, about k2! Quite a sobering read of people desperate for the challenge and the victory, but also one of people who know when to call it a day. The one thing that stuck in my mind re that book was one of the female climbers who only just made it down alive but then went on to die six or so weeks later on a "lesser climb" 🙁

I'm not sure how often the case it is that climbers in trouble are passed by other parties and either helped or not.

Listening to a commentator on the radio he reckoned on a successful ascent you'd expect to arrive on the summit at 9 in the morning. Many of the people who have died in recent years were people who didn't manage to reach the summit until the afternoon. That suggests that they were not fit enough, or climbing in difficult conditions or something else was wrong - but if they are getting to the summit half a day late they were in trouble long before they got there.

In those circumstances - who are the people who are going to happen across them and help - the fittest, most able climbers will be long gone, if there is anyone else around they are likely to be in just as much trouble themselves

double post - must be the altitude

From above somewhere "am I missing something"
Yes. Experience.
Lets accept that unless you have been there you cannot comment with any degree of authority.
All those so called moral do gooders are talking out of their orifices.

From another point of view everyone knows the risk. Just like you now the risk when you ride your bike. We should all stop that should we.
Pointless thread with no answer, just scope for the uninformed to show their ignorance.

Must take the shine off of what will probably be the biggest achievement of your life when you walk past a dying person.
Not a climber, but from an outside perspective the situation sucks.

just scope for the uninformed to show their ignorance.

And the supposedly [i][b]in[/b][/i]formed to do their "You weren't THERE man" dance.

Pointless thread with no answer, just scope for the uninformed to show their ignorance.

😆

I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with that. This has actually been one of the less pointless threads when compared to all the whattyreformycatatethedogfootpathbrakingbumphell that makes up quite a lot of STW.

There are never any clear cut answers in extreme situations, especially when morality is involved. This doesn't mean someone can't comment. Otherwise what fun would forums be if only people who where actually at a given event could post? Plus more importantly what would all us office dwellers do with our days?

Lets accept that unless you have been there you cannot comment with any degree of authority.

That's like saying people without children shouldn't comment on child threads, and people without dogs shouldn't comment on dog threads, and people without a helmet shouldn't comment on a helmet thread, and then what would happen? ( 😉 )

Read this morning about a uni student skirting round someone in trouble whereas a young Israeli stopped for another and sacrificed his chance at ascent. both recent.

Nice one. Guess the karma wagon will be following him through the rest of life and not her.

Nick1962, I agree entirely. If I was fantasizing about what might massage my ego, like something to tell my grandchildren, or a reason for a blue plaque outside my house it would be for being one of the few people that gave up their summit attempt and saved someones life. That is waaaayyyyy more awesome than making the summit of everest. The rescue stories make you well up with emotion, when you think how brilliant those rescuers are. If any mountaineers want a challenge, want to prove themselves, want to make the ultimate achievement, why not just skip up and down everest all climbing season saving lives. Any old fool can summit, a real man brings back his fellow man.

(edit -I'm not knocking anyone who has summitted or walked past a dying climber, I don't know anything about mountaineering or morals..I'm just commenting that I am more impressed by a rescue than a summit.)

I'm not sure how often the case it is that climbers in trouble are passed by other parties and either helped or not.

Pertinent picture on page three of today's Telegraph. Don't know if it's on the website.

umm i dunno i maybe single minded, but the sort of people doing these climbs are probably educated at the same school as david cameron etc. ive come to find in life these sort of people are douches and probably will walk past someone so there fakebook status can be changed to, reached top of everest crack open the chardonay.

That's a sweeping statement and a half. Are you absolutely 100% sure that there are absolutley no 'douches' being churned out of state schools, none at all? Rich douche or poor douche would make little odds, just seems you've decided that a segment of society is somehow different to you and therefore full of douches.

Joe Simpson knows a thing or two about near death experiences and he has been a vocal critic about what goes on in the Death Zone regarding walking past near death climbers without so much as a humane gesture.

That's like saying people without children shouldn't comment on child threads, and people without dogs shouldn't comment on dog threads, and people without a helmet shouldn't comment on a helmet thread, and then what would happen?

I see what you did there... 😀

I'm glad someone did!