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I guess the Nepalese will have to cut the number of permits since companies and individuals can't make sensible decisions for themselves and their clients.
This is always the risk when you have a large number of people who've spent or been paid £££ to get to the top and it turns out you have only a narrow window of good weather.
I guess the Nepalese will have to cut the number of permits since companies and individuals can’t make sensible decisions for themselves and their clients.
It's a bit presumptuous of us to dictate Nepal's tourism policies.
Also sensible decisions can he very hard to make at that altitude.
There's a blog about the latest conditions here:
http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2019/05/23/everest-2019-3-new-deaths-now-6-on-everest-15-overall/
The writer claims that because of inexperience and queuing, some climbers are taking 20 hours for a summit push that should take around half that time.
It’s a bit presumptuous of us to dictate Nepal’s tourism policies.
Also sensible decisions can he very hard to make at that altitude.
A lot of these decisions are being made in base camp. I don't think anyone can dictate to Nepal what their policy on permits is, they will simply have to balance multiple deaths due to overcrowding with their revenue.
If that pic is the queue to the summit how do the ones at the front get back down through that mob?
Yup, that is the issue. I think it's time for a limit on the number of ascents on any one day, though how that would be policed, I've no idea. Of course, on the other hand it's their choice to be there - apart from the Sherpas of course, it's their jobs.
I was reading that blog earlier today via the Guardian report.
The one reply around handling the increasing numbers / potentially decreasing skill level ws pretty decent I thought, having people climb 2 6000m and 1 7000m peak before being given a permit to climb Everest, as stated it'd be a benefit to the local economy in many ways - there's probably a few practical problems that it'd through up mind.
onehundredthidiot
Member
I’m at gt7 today if mountain biking was that dangerous there’d be over 20 deaths today.
If Euan hadn't sanitised the bombhole there probably would have been.
I’m laid up feeling ill and have spent the day watching various documentaries on the big and dangerous peaks. Fascinating stuff and you’d think after 1996 there would have been more restrictions. I know oxygen is now mandatory, but it seems more limits are needed to save people from themselves. Just about to watch Meru.
1996 was the year that bloke rode from holland, I think, to Everest , climbed it without oxygen, then rode home.
Edit Sweden
https://www.adventure-journal.com/2016/06/historical-badass-goran-kropp-the-man-who-rode-to-everest/
It would appear Everest is now pretty much a tourist attraction not just the most extreme physical challenge on earth. So with that in mind H & S it to the max. Install steps, a handrail, wheelchair friendly ramp, O2 dispensers at regular intervals, climbing assistant persons with full first aid qualifications etc.
Get DCC to smooth out the Hilary Step?
Get DCC to smooth out the Hilary Step?
Naughty. I rode Rushup on Friday, and the bit DCC has done has actually made the descent worse (thank goodness it's a small area). It's fortunately starting to be eroded, but it's very loose under wheel.
Thought I'd have a look at the climbing background of number 10. The more I dug the more I was gob-smacked that he was up there.
I stopped at the Youtube video of him climbing Mont Blanc by the classic route with... a guide... just two years ago.
As someone suggested above, some kind of permit system that imposes progression would mean people arrived better prepared for Everest and bring more money into Nepal as people ticked the peaks needed to get a permit.
I haven't embedded the video, Should I?
I haven’t embedded the video, Should I?
I can't see why not. There is something strange with Everest. everyone knows that there are significant numbers of deaths and that there is no easy way out, once there you are committed and although you might be surrounded by a well stocked and trained team there might not be anything they can do :(. I can't imagine doing it without working my way up to it (edit: I'm not suggesting that any of those who died hadn't done proper prep - I'm just wondering if putting requirements on this will save many lives as I can't imagine not doing that work in advance)
Anyone who thinks this is distasteful, report it. If mods think it distasteful take it down. Climbers on the forum will know that how people climb down gives you the best insight into how at ease they are on rock/ice, the sequences down from the Goûter near the end are revealing. Four years ago to correct previous post.
Summary of the thread:
I don’t want to climb everest because...
You also missed out not wanting to climb Everest, or any other mountain that can’t easily be walked up because the idea is too terrifying! Also the lack of physical stamina. Honestly, the thought of walking Striding Edge makes me feel twitchy.
Get DCC to smooth out the Hilary Step?
Didn't a series of earthquakes do that anyway?
It would appear Everest is now pretty much a tourist attraction not just the most extreme physical challenge on earth
Don’t think it ever way the most extreme challenge when compared to the other big ones
Everest is a cash cow for a desperately poor country so they will probably never limit the numbers. I’ve got a mate who worked as a commercial guide and has summited. He said you can tell on first meeting the group who stands a chance of sumitting and who doesn’t. Another friend who re mortgaged his house to pay for his attempt and didn’t summit. If you all had a whip-round for me I’d give it a go but I’d want friends in my team not random strangers. Functioning at altitude is very hard and strangers are unlikely to be of any help. Those who suffer the best are the most successful.
How are you going to feel/cope if your friends start dying around you and there's nothing you can do to help?
Don’t think it ever way the most extreme challenge when compared to the other big ones
I once interviewed the boss of Jagged Globe Expeditions in Sheffield, who guide on the mountain. The basic abilities he looks for are: an ability to acclimatise above 5,000m, climbing at Scottish Grade 2 winter level (which is not very hard at all) but preferably harder so you can move fast on moderately technical ground, the willingness to build up to Everest via some slightly smaller high altitude expeditions and - obviously - the financial resources to pay for a permit etc. At that time, that meant around £40,000 all in.
There are lots of beautiful mountains you can climb far more cheaply - try the Andes for starters - and there are lots and lots of far more technically challenging peaks out there. If you're looking at harder 8000m + peaks, K2, Kangchenjunga, Nanga Parbat etc. But the attraction of Everest is pretty obviously that it's the highest mountain on earth.
The purist mountaineering take is that relying on fixed ropes, guides, Sherpas carrying your kit, and supplementary oxygen with someone else making the decisions for you, isn't really mountaineering, more extreme, high altitude tourism. Which isn't to say that climbing Everest isn't physiologically brutal or dangerous, just that taking part in a guided expedition on the mountain is qualitatively different from an un-guided trip with mates where you make your own decisions and basically are responsible for your own safety etc.
The counterpoint to that is that Kenton Cool, who knows a lot more about Everest than anyone on here, is emphatic that it's an astonishing place to be and the downsides are overhyped. Having been to Everest Base Camp, I'd have to say that the place has an impressive scale to it, but the mountain I looked at and thought, 'I'd really like to climb that' was Ama Dablam, which is a stunning-looking mountain. Nowhere near as high and festooned with fixed ropes I think, but much more interesting from a climbing point of view.
I'm thinking the truth is somewhat subjective and in the middle of all that. And that pic of the queues is horrific on all sorts of levels. But who the hell are we to tell people what they can and cannot do? Personally I'm more concerned for the Sherpas who are generally there purely to earn money so their kids can have different, better lives. If mountaineers choose to take those risks, that's their call, but for local guides and porters it's rather different.
ps: I think what would really terrify me is having to move through the Khumbu ice fall: Massive, house-sized seracs that just topple over randomly on top of the route and the odd massive avalanche like the one that took out multiple Sherpas a few years. Proper random death zone stuff, but with no alternative route. No thanks.
I had a work colleague who attempted it a few years ago - the whole experience he found really difficult, mainly due to the selfishness of the other participants who struggle on the technical parts and refuse to let more competent climbers through. Queuing on the Hilary Step being the classic example - holding everyone up unnecessarily in the 'death zone'. He got within a 100m of the summit, but encountered a climber in difficulty and abandoned his summit attempt in order to successfully save the climber - others were simply walking past.
others were simply walking past.
It does seem to be a place with an abundance of facebook braggers and selfish assholes, and a very limited number of people with any empathy or humanity. Your mate achieved more than anyone who reached the summit that day, dovebiker.
The abandoning 'others' is really bad. I commend your colleague @dovebiker. I coundn't leave people. Maybe that's why some folk do this alone ? Doing it with people you know, you are bound to help them back down should something go wrong. There was an article on BBC News about someone lying dying, and people went past to get to the top !
How are you going to feel/cope if your friends start dying around you and there’s nothing you can do to help?
Hopefully that’s were friendship and experience kick in and you abandon summit attempts to help each other out rather than a group of strangers not helping each other.
Has anyone ever tried to help someone in difficulty in the mountains? Having done so at low altitude and in perfect conditions with an only slightly injured victim (hands and head) I'm all the more impressed by dovebikers mate. It's really hard work.
A guy I climbed with needed rescuing in the Himalaya and one of the guys rescuing him died in the process. I found him irritating to climb with - on one occasion he led through but placed no gear, so I made a few moves up from my belay to place a runner to cut the fall factor. He died in the ALps not long after.
So helping is a risk, and another reason for not wanting to be up there with a lot of people close to death as far as I'm concerned. Besides, I never felt the desire, the Alps and Pyrenees were quite big enough for me even at my best. And I got just as much satisfaction from doing a boulder problem as a mountain. Each to his/her own.
Climbers on the forum will know that how people climb down gives you the best insight into how at ease they are on rock/ice, the sequences down from the Goûter near the end are revealing.
I've climbed extensively in the Alps and that video at the end (assuming he's the one with the camera) only shows that his female partner was struggling and, being on a short tight rope, he had no option but to constantly hang back for her, even in the middle of a move. So it shows me nothing of his abilities. He seemed to be aware of using natural belays, but might have been coincidence. What might speak volumes perhaps is that he hired a guide to take them up the easy tourist route on Monte Blanc, but I certainly wouldn't judge him on that short vid of him descending. Did the female in that vid climb Everest as well?
I used to climb in the Alps and a small amount in South America to higher altitude. Always climbed with friends and always unguided. We either all made it to the summit or none of us did. I would struggle to put myself in the death zone and place trust in
people when surrounded by nobody but strangers and those I met only a few weeks before. Not for me I am afraid.
He got within a 100m of the summit, but encountered a climber in difficulty and abandoned his summit attempt in order to successfully save the climber – others were simply walking past.
There are lots of stories of that on Everest.
Reading the books and accounts of it, it's a mix of factors. You're so caught up in your own world (most people are barely capable of functioning for themselves in those conditions, never mind helping others), there's the question of kit - typically you're carrying enough oxygen and kit for you, not you + any other randoms you may encounter in difficulty, the issues of trying to do first aid at that altitude and I suppose the pressure of "I've paid all this money to summit, I will summit" probably comes into it too. Plus it's probably a complete stranger and behaviour might be different depending on if it was someone you knew vs someone you didn't.
Do you leave one person to die or do you become a casualty too in trying to rescue the first person? The fact that the bodies have mostly been left up there is testament to how difficult it is getting them down and that's a lifeless corpse - try doing that with a living person without causing further injury.
But then it's easy to write either side of it from a keyboard because none of us has ever been in that situation - 8000+ metres up a mountain with near zero prospect of rescue, a storm coming in, running low on oxygen - makes it difficult to judge.
It's not like witnessing a fall at Glentress and calling in the ambulance by reference to the numbered trail marker at the side....
Joe Simpson references it a couple of times in his books - basically every mountaineer has friends, colleagues etc who have died on mountains and the general feel seems to be one of acceptance. You remember them for the good times and there's no real blame or fault attached to anyone. Similar to him being left for dead.
Hopefully that’s were friendship and experience kick in and you abandon summit attempts to help each other out rather than a group of strangers not helping each other.
You’re assuming you’re not descending there. You might well be on the ragged edge yourself, it is the death zone after all
18:48 on B.A. Nana. Tentative hand placements rather than hold to hold, feet in fresh air, using bum, constantly facing out when facing right or left or backing down would have given better foot and hand placements (I've done that descent as anchor man).
Edit: I've just shown the vid to Madame. No prompting her comments were "he should be backing down there", "there weren't any cables when we did it were there"
Joe Simpson references it a couple of times in his books – basically every mountaineer has friends, colleagues etc who have died on mountains and the general feel seems to be one of acceptance. You remember them for the good times and there’s no real blame or fault attached to anyone. Similar to him being left for dead.
Its as simple as that. Its difficult to apprehend but they just accept it as faith and normal that some just don't make it back. Cut your losses and save your ass. Its that hard up there that most of the time trying to help makes you risk more dead's then that you would be saving(once you need saving you most likely are lost in any case) Thats what I read in the book of a seven summiter fellow adventure racer and what another seven summiter that was my room ride mate for a couple of days confirmed.
18:48 onwards is what I watched Edukator, If you've actually done that section and remember how it goes then fair enough. With him having the camera on his head it's difficult to tell how he's coping ie on his arse or not, altho in my book facing out when you're down climbing shows some confidence altho that doesn't include sliding down on your arse. I just saw that he was having to wait for the girl to move, for him to move on the short rope which makes life awkward (and maybe does him an injustice) and then she nearly stood on his hand. I'm sure you've experienced the same, when your partner isn't flowing then you're not flowing. Anyhow, I'm no Reinhold Messner, but a guide wouldn't so much as pass my mind for that route, so that sort of says enough to me I suppose.
I just find it easier, faster and more secure to turn sideways or reverse what I've done on the way up once it's steep enough to need hands. Coming back down something within 24 hours you remember the line you took and you find yourself using exactly the same holds as you used on the way up if you turn to face the rock. It's very secure; your hands, arms and feet are made for gripping facing forward, your head is further out so you have better visibility of foot placements. It's not a question of showing confidence, it's a question of moving as safely and efficiently as possible.
I’m no Reinhold Messner...
I knew and worked for his Climbing partner (Peter Habeler) for a long time in Mayrhofen in the ‘90s.
They say you should never meet your childhood heroes, but I was not at all unhappy to meet and know Peter, absolute legend 👍
Educator, are you familiar with the Royal Marines and Navy rescue on Everest? The right way to do things.
https://www.wiredforadventure.com/how-i-rescued-an-injured-climber-from-the-north-ridge-of-everest/
I hadn't seen that, Tired, ta, an impressive effort. The attitude of a Royal Marine is nothing like a facebook ticker.
My favourite Everest story by far. “I know it’s your summit day, and will understand, but...” Someone in the team summitted, but that was almost inconsequential compared with what they all went on to do. Proper teamwork.
I'd hope we'd all feel the same way as the Royals when it comes to choosing life over death. Surely it's an easy and obvious choice?
Plus it gives you a much more interesting story to tell! Who wants to read a yawnfest about yet another uneventful summit of Everest?
Surely it’s an easy and obvious choice?
It is at sea level. Oxygen starved, freezing and exhausted the mind might not be working the same way
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48423738
Interesting article about the multiple factors behind the deaths this year.
I was saddened to read the news about Martin Moran and his clients on nanda devi. I loved reading his books, The Alps 4000ers book was what inspired me to do the same (I've only managed 14).
I was saddened to read the news about Martin Moran and his clients on nanda devi. I loved reading his books, The Alps 4000ers book was what inspired me to do the same (I’ve only managed 14).
Exactly the same here. That book inspired me up six 4000ers. I did not realise Martin Moran was one of the missing. After the passing of Andy Nisbet, that could be another great loss to the Scottish climbing scene.
Another thread bump for this excellent piece of journalism coupled with some really great graphics.
ta, CL
@crazy-legs - not bad, does make the "percentage of oxygen" mistake though. The percentage of oxygen at the summit of Everest is the same as at sea level, it's the pressure that's much less meaning less is drawn into the lungs with each breath and that there isn't the required pressure to force the gas through the lung walls into the bloodstream.
Someone I know was a guide on Everest in the late 1980s and he described being on the South Col sorting oxygen cylinders in preparation for a summit bid. He was counting and putting the full ones into one pile, the half empty ones into another. Halfway through he'd forget which pile was which so would start again, make the same mistake and start again. It took him half a dozen attempts to finish that simple task. Being in that state and having to tie knots, etc. on which your life depends is fraught with danger.
Back in the 1980s when I was doing most of my altitude climbing I never really fancied Everest. It was "commercial" even back then. K2 was a much more appealing peak. I was on a climbing expedition in the Karakorum in that horrible summer of 1986 when Al Rouse and others died on K2, we walked in at the same time as Rouse's trip as far as Concordia. I never truly got on with high altitude, I'd randomly black out when up at 7000m or so, I was fine in the Alps at 4000-5000m though.
not bad, does make the “percentage of oxygen” mistake though. The percentage of oxygen at the summit of Everest is the same as at sea level, it’s the pressure that’s much less meaning less is drawn into the lungs with each breath and that there isn’t the required pressure to force the gas through the lung walls into the bloodstream.
Yes, the oft-quoted oxygen thing bugged me too. Other than that, some very well documented facts and graphs.
not bad, does make the “percentage of oxygen” mistake though. The percentage of oxygen at the summit of Everest is the same as at sea level, it’s the pressure that’s much less meaning less is drawn into the lungs with each breath and that there isn’t the required pressure to force the gas through the lung walls into the bloodstream.
Has anyone ever tried to produce a positive pressure mask system rather than bottled oxygen?
i normally hate those responsive pages where images move around as you scroll through text but that is the most excellent use of it actually enhancing the text. Fantastic article
Getting back to the Op's original post. I'm never going to climb Everest ever, it was never going to happen. I'm not a mountaineer, no way could I afford it, perhaps at some point in my life I could have physically rose to the challenge but that's gone now. But still there was that nagging "what if" going on in my mind. A part of me wanted to at least imagine doing so, just a low level itch that wouldn't go away.
But now it has, that photo has killed any fantasy desire I ever had, it's one less thing that'll bother me because I've never done it. Chapeau OP 🥂
Has anyone ever tried to produce a positive pressure mask system rather than bottled oxygen?
I think they have. But motors, batteries and pump impellers don't play well in very cold and damp conditions..
I do like the idea of wearing a Felix Baumgartner style space suit and just strolling up there. Maybe while walking a dog.
This popped up on a newsfeed today, shows just how bad and out of control things have become on the mountain:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mount-everest-garbage-24000-pounds-removed-leading-to-the-discovery-of-four-dead-bodies-today-2019-06-06/
The whole thing both saddens and scares me. I have done a bit of walking in the mountains - the highest I have been many years ago is just under 5000m and that was tough enough. On my bucket list is to solo a 6000m peak. I have plans in place - and precaution number one is to know when its time to admit defeat and go down! Precaution number two is to take a guide if soloing looks too dangerous. Precaution number 3 is to forget the whole silly ideaas I am old and unfit!
For me the mountains are about what I can achieve on my own and solitude. Not what I can achieve when others do all the tricky stuff for me.
Precaution number two is to take a guide if soloing looks too dangerous.
For me the mountains are about what I can achieve on my own and solitude. Not what I can achieve when others do all the tricky stuff for me.
Make your mind up 🙂
For me, precaution number two: Just don't bother and find something we can do without a guide that's equally as fulfilling. Personally, there is simply no attraction in being guided, I'd feel like I cheated and I'm there for the whole experience, not just getting to the top.
🙂
I'd rather do it unguided. However if a reasonable assessment is guided or no summit then I have a decision to make. I have my eye on a mountain in Bolivia that is a walk not a climb. The key issue will be altitude not technical ability. Sleeping out at 5000m is necessary to do the climb. We will have 10 weeks to acclimatise tho - altitude training in the bar in La Paz!
There was a sponsored stair climb event near me recently in which the group target was to climb the height of Everest. Done in 45 minutes, and no deaths.
I have my eye on a mountain in Bolivia that is a walk not a climb. The key issue will be altitude not technical ability. Sleeping out at 5000m is necessary to do the climb.
Is it Huayna Potosi tj? I did this with 2 friend in 2006. Climbing a 6000er at the time was on my bucket list. We did a couple of peaks at 5,500 based in Condoriri to acclimatize. That is a beautiful area. We tried for Illimani, but one of my friends didn't head out as he was feeling off colour at the time and when the two of us started out on summit day I started to feel awful at about 6,000m so we turned back. Great trip though. I am sure you will have fun.
I have been looking at a few actually. Ones not usually walked up by tourists. some the summits are over the border into chile. One Volcan Tacora is actually 5980m! Acotango is another which is over 6000m but under 20 000ft and is th eone I really have my eye on
Its a couple of years away yet and may forever remain a dream. nearer the time I will do more detailed planning.
Were you guided?
We weren't guided tj. We spent a week in Condoriri climbing lower peaks, then returned to La Paz before trying Huayna Potosi. That when my friend got his bad tummy. We returned to La Paz before he said to the two of us to try Illimani ourselves. We came back unsuccessfully to find our mate recovered and planning a single day hit on Huayna Potosi on the last day of our trip. We were feeling fit by this stage so we packed light and all went. It was a great end to the trip. I dont know how many people climb Potosi in a day. It's like doing Ben Nevis starting at the altitude of the top of Mont Blanc. La Paz was great and the people friendly if really poor. One of guys returned a few years later and felt it had gone downhill a bit.
Is Huayana Potosi the best in that area, at that level?. Looks like you could do it without any climbing paraphernalia
acotango is the easiest 6000m peak in terms of technical climbing but it does require overnighting on the mountain ( or a very early start and a good 4wd on an old mining track)
Huayna Potosi has no real technical challenges but does require knowledge and gear for glacier travel and crevasse rescue if required. The upper slopes are quite steep with a short exposed summit ridge.
Yeah, I meant climbing gear as opposed to glacier gear. It's graded PD which is well within our range. I just wondered if it was the best in the area at that sort of level, that doesn't require you to turn up with lots of jangle jangle. I quite fancy something like that without having to ship loads of heavy kit. It'll probably never happen
acotango doesn't look quite as visually appealing
B.A.Nana, yes Huayana Potosi is a stand alone peak that looks graceful and dominating without being hard. Illimani is the biggie closer to La Paz but has an extra 500m vertical ascent making it more of a proposition. There are great peaks in the Condoriri area around 5,300m to 5,600m for a warm up. We did a couple of easier summits there. Tarija and Pyramide Blanca. They dont require technical climbing but the area is like a big impressive amphitheatre.
B A Nana - no- but its a lot easier requiring nothing but ordinary hiking kit I think. Even the snow / ice at the top is on a flat gradient I think and no glacier
don't worry - nearer the time I will look more carefully but I think its just a big walk not "mountaineering"
cheers you two,
Interest view point from a climber in the queue.
Motorist moans about congestion and blames other traffic.