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My parents in law are in the process of installing solar panels, battery storage and an EV charger. They are planning to replace their petrol town runabout car, and seem to be favouring a plug-in hybrid. Their current car has done 25,000 miles in 12.5 years. That's less than 40 miles a week and has rarely, if ever, left the bounds of the city. They also have another larger petrol car which they use for longer trips.
They seem to be favouring a hybrid based on electric range anxiety and the "lack of a charging network". I don't think a plug-in hybrid is the right choice. While it's likely the plug-in hybrid would operate in electric mode for most of its journeys, having the "backup" of a petrol engine seems like too much redundancy and overhead for short trips around town. Based on a 200 mile range of an EV, they'd be charging that once a month (?). The trips will always be from their house to somewhere else and back within the day.
Am I missing something where a plug-in hybrid would be a better choice than an EV?
No, you're not. Been driving electric for nearly 5 years and never had a problem with range. The one time I wasn't sure I'd have enough to get home I stopped at the motorway services and topped up enough while the kids got something to eat. Payed by contactless, didn't need an app.
For the miles they do electric is a no brainer.
Thanks! And for my sanity I may post further on the other bonkers things they've come up with since moving into a new house!
Doing 2,000 miles per year, is it really either economical or environmental to get electric rather than ICE?
Doing 2,000 miles per year, is it really either economical or environmental to get electric rather than ICE?
40miles / week, PV, batteries, and another long-range car. Be bonkers not to have an EV for this set-up.
Doing 2,000 miles per year, is it really either economical or environmental to get electric rather than ICE?
Either just use the other car or get taxis/buses.
Reasonably rare view on here but I'm a big fan of PHEV's. BUT I drive about 20k miles/yr with a lot of long motorway/A road journeys for work (no - I'm not a sales rep 😀).
So all my local journeys are electric without the 'hassle' of charging on longer journeys. A flawed compromise but one that works for me.
However in this case, I'd either just keep the one car they already have or if they absolutely need the second car go full EV. I can't see what a PHEV would offer other than added complexity if it goes wrong!
Hybrid is just dragging around a motor that you don't need and adding more parts to service or repair.
I've been driving EV for 2 years with no home charger and never had an issue.
If they're getting solar and a home charger, full EV (BEV) is a no brainer.
Maybe they would be better off with a couple of ebikes rather than a new car? If they insist they need one then a small EV like the Citroen Ami would seem like the perfect option.
Maybe they would be better off with a couple of ebikes rather than a new car? If they insist they need one then a small EV like the Citroen Ami would seem like the perfect option.
Looking at a similar change for my PIL. They are planning to move up country to be much nearer us and at 80 odd really don't need 2 cars anymore and the cost of running them.
I've suggested sell both and buy a small EV as they will never need to go very far now. Huge distrust of pure EV despite us having an EV for several years and championing how effective and cheap it is to run in comparison to ICE.
It makes total sense from a simple point of view but I think the preponderance of touch screens etc might be putting them off.
If they insist they need one then a small EV like the Citroen Ami would seem like the perfect option.
I love the Ami, but it is *very* niche and the limited top speed means it is realistically limited to 30mph zones. A more practical solution would be the Renault Zoe.
in the process of installing solar panels, battery storage and an EV charger.
I also think you need to have a word with them – why on earth go to all that effort then not fully embrace electric? If they have an EV charger at home then they have absolutely no reason not to – all they would be doing is charging a battery in a plug-in hybrid every time they use the vehicle (unless they run the engine which defeats the point of all that effort they have gone to) versus perhaps once a fortnight with a fully electric vehicle (or more, depending on the range of the car they choose).
My parents were in a similar position with the complicator that they live between two flats 80 miles apart.
They were running a diesel Mini for long trips (ie. coming to see us a couple of times a year) and an electric Mini which had enough range to get between the two flats, but not enough to turn round and go back if they forgot anything.
They’ve traded in both for one non-plug-in hybrid, but then Mum has more or less stopped driving so running two cars seems a bit much. The electric Mini was great and if they lived in one place, would have been all the car they really needed.
Same as yak, absolute no brainer to get an EV if they're getting solar, battery, EV charger. Plenty on offer with 200+mile range, maybe an MG4, ID3 or something like that, I think evdatabase website shows a reasonable real world range of cars. Their worry around the odd long distance journey (it's not range anxiety, it's charger anxiety) still has some founding, but it's not the journey, it's where they might end up. So, all the main arteries, towns, cities etc are awash with easy fast charging, they just need setting up to make it simple (IE octopus electroverse card and Tesla account, most will also take credit/debit card as well, except Tesla at the mo) and aim to use the best operators (Tesla, instavolt, MFG, osprey, ionity etc etc). Where it potentially could still fall down a bit at the moment is if they were going for a holiday in a national park type area Dales, lake District, Snowdonia, Highlands etc and they didn't book accomodation where they could charge. Then it could get a bit stressful for them during the holiday (not the journey there or back). That's my opinion (6yrs EV, 14000 miles pr yr).
I can see why everyone is saying get an EV and that would be my first thought too. Certainly better than a PHEV for their use case I would have thought. But @Fueled does make an interesting point. The carbon cost of making an EV is still higher than an ICE I think and they may not do enough miles to offset that (wasn’t it over 20,000). Also EVs tend to cost more to purchase than an ICE car and doing so we miles, even with solar, will they actually save enough to offset that.
I think an EV is probably still the way to go at least on cost grounds as long as it is a relatively cheap second hand one.
I can see why everyone is saying get an EV and that would be my first thought too. Certainly better than a PHEV for their use case I would have thought. But @Fueled does make an interesting point. The carbon cost of making an EV is still higher than an ICE I think and they may not do enough miles to offset that (wasn’t it over 20,000). Also EVs tend to cost more to purchase than an ICE car and doing so we miles, even with solar, will they actually save enough to offset that.
I think an EV is probably still the way to go at least on cost grounds as long as it is a relatively cheap second hand one.
I can see why everyone is saying get an EV and that would be my first thought too. Certainly better than a PHEV for their use case I would have thought. But @Fueled does make an interesting point. The carbon cost of making an EV is still higher than an ICE I think and they may not do enough miles to offset that (wasn’t it over 20,000). Also EVs tend to cost more to purchase than an ICE car and doing so we miles, even with solar, will they actually save enough to offset that.
I think an EV is probably still the way to go at least on cost grounds as long as it is a relatively cheap second hand one.
It would be better for the environment to not buy a brand new EV or hybrid. Maybe they could look at a slight 2nd ICE. ?
People often don't like change and fear the "new" - plus there is a lot of anti-EV stuff.around.
For their use case it sounds like a short to moderate range EV would be perfect for their smaller, local use car. Rather than thinking of this as "it would need charging once an month" think of it as "every morning it will be charged up ready to go".
Can they install.a.charget in a convenient place so.rheybcan just plug in each evening with no hassle? That's a bit part of it.
Whether it's worth it economically or ecologically for their use is a.sofferenr discussion. The best solution for both is actually probably to continue to run whatever they already have or a older, used car.
My folks bought a new car last year, ideal EV useage - very low miles local shopping trips, they live <3 miles away from me. Parking at the side of their owned house. Holidays are abroad.
Won't have EV as the ****ing Daily Mail has brainwashed them about battery mineral mining, range anxiety, car exploding etc.
BTW since posting (you can't edit at the moment) I realised they are still keeping the large petrol car for long journeys, so they will never public charge by the sound of it, so most of what I wrote may never apply (unless it dawned on then that it's not as bad as they've been lead to believe and they get rid of the 2nd car).
BTW since posting (you can't edit at the moment) I realised they are still keeping the large petrol car for long journeys, so they will never public charge by the sound of it, so most of what I wrote may never apply (unless it dawned on them that it's not as bad as they've been lead to believe and they get rid of the 2nd car).
On both environmental and economic grounds, surely running a cheap, small, second hand petrol car for as many years as you can is the way forward. Plus a couple of ebikes with some panniers...
If they did more miles, I would have a different view.
I find the suggestion the environmentally, the existing car is better which as an isolated case, it is. However, if it's half decent, it gets sold second hand and someone else uses it. Their old car sells on. So on and so on until some knackered old oil burning death trap drops out of the bottom of the system. So one new EV is likely to replace an old end of life UCE when the whole system is considered
EV or keep the car they've got.
PHEV is only really a *good* electrical option for a very limited subset of people, those with a long commute and/or limited charging facilities. For anyone else, it's pretty much just dragging a battery/engine/fuel/motor round that you don't need.
Mines working really well, but i have a long commute and can't always charge at home/work. Then all my local/shopping/school/errand driving is (well) within the range of the battery. I'd probably need a minimum of 450 km range when it's -20 on an EV to cover those times i couldn't charge.
Their whole strategy is flawed in my view. They're going for solar and batteries, yet have replaced the gas boiler with another, despite the heating engineer recommending a heat pump and losing their work (he doesn't install them yet, but has one himself). They've replaced only some of the UPVC windows and now wonder why they get condensation on the outside of the new ones but not the original ones (hint the new ones are obviously far better insulated). They've installed a new gas fire instead of decommissioning and making better use of the space in the room.
They seem ambivalent to insulating the loft to current standards and even repairing the loft hatch, which is currently an open hole to the roof space. They are also complaining that their gas bill is too high.
They've decided the conservatory off the kitchen will be their lounge, keeping the actual lounge more for "occasions"
They've dug the garden down and now wonder why it is so sodden (it's now lower than everyone elses). The lower garden also means they now have steps down from the back door (one of them fell down the steps at their last house and broke their wrist)
I could go on.... the main issue is their lack of critical thinking skills, being able to evaluate information and its source, and lacking in general life experience. My wife and I have all but given up trying to advise or help them because they don't take on board anything. This has been a common theme and not just with the recent house purchase
Regarding a petrol car, yes they could just keep their current one. We still have the car their current one replaced! Overall a PHEV should be 3rd on the list after an EV or petrol
By the sound of things, you'd be better off leaving them to get on with it – they don't seem to want to listen.
Olds ehh!! 🙂 EV is most practical car, I guess it doesnt stack up economically, but that is possibly not the point is it. EV over a PHEV defo. We have a Merc EQA for 99% of local trips (busy teens and our local trips living in very busy urban SW London) for the past three years. Its been fantastic.
We charge it 99% of the time at home or my wifes office, which is free once every couple weeks. It can do almost 300 in the summer. Its super practical if a little small for us. We also have an occasional 2nd VW Caravelle for bike and camping trips etc.
By the sound of things, you'd be better off leaving them to get on with it – they don't seem to want to listen.
Unfortunately that is the approach I'm now taking. This thread was more for my own sanity, wondering if I'd completely overlooked something.
I find the suggestion the environmentally, the existing car is better which as an isolated case, it is. However, if it's half decent, it gets sold second hand and someone else uses it. Their old car sells on.
We've been offered the car they want to replace, and we still have its predecessor. So a bit of a stick or twist situation for us.
you'd be better off leaving them to get on with it – they don't seem to want to listeni.
🤣 Yeah, i feel that pain. My ex FiL bought a sequence of imported American built automatic cars, which always broke down needing expensive repairs and parts from the US. Then after the 4th (?) he switched to a high mileage french automatic, which broke down after about a month. And spent more time in the garage than on his drive for the first year or so. Then he just lived with the random shifts and loss of drive until it was scrapped. And then bought another one. Which lasted 3 months.
I started trying to help when he was buying the 3rd US automatic. Didn't listen, at all.
He finally bought a Skoda Fabia (that didn't go wrong in 8 years) and now a nissan leaf (that hasn't skipped a beat, so far)
Personally, just let them get a hybrid.
Otherwise the first time they have a long journey and one of the chargers is out of order, it'll be all your fault. 😉
I'd say work on 'Dad' and "man of a certain age" logic, point out that petrol left for long periods in the tank (because the car trundles everywhere on electricity) runs the risk of actually damaging the engine and fuel filter etc (probably not the actual case, but the sort of thinking blokes in their 70s seem to like). Then point out that he'll be paying to service, change oil and filters, etc and MOT and essentially unused ICE every year... That would definitely work on my old man for whom almost everyone is trying to scam him.
Plus suggesting he actually clock up a day/week's worth of driving to see how that stacks up against BEV and PHEV leccy miles.
If they're retaining an ICE car specifically for longer journeys then a hybrid runabout is basically diddling themselves out of money to move a redundant engine around town every day...
Charge point is a bit pointless if they get a PHEV, my friend charges his from the 3pin plug in the garage. As it's a small battery it will easily trickle charge to full overnight rather than a 7kW charger.
I'd also argue against an EV with a big range (200+ mile suggestion above). Why drive a bigger, heavier, more expensive car that's had a bigger co2 production footprint when it's only for local journeys and they have an ICE for longer journeys? Unless there is an expectation to get rid of the ICE later.
I've had a couple of EV vans with a range between 150~180 miles, home charging, I've public/fast charged less than 10 times over 2 years as I rarely needed to travel outside my normal area. Back in a diesel van and having to fill up every week is more of a ball ache than having to public charge once in a blue moon!
point out that petrol left for long periods in the tank (because the car trundles everywhere on electricity) runs the risk of actually damaging the engine and fuel filter etc (probably not the actual case, but the sort of thinking blokes in their 70s seem to like).
OI! I'm in my 50's and it actually does happen...
OI! I'm in my 50's and it actually does happen...
Is there a plan for it to either replace the "big" car or become the "main" car? Its not always logical to use past history as a future predictor of use. If they buy an nice new car with things like pre-heat/defrost from within the house, the "auto" gear box that comes with (PH)EV, and a number of driving aids like cameras etc the "other" car might soon become the "main" car. Or indeed mean that they decide one car is enough.
That still doesn't mean that range anxiety or concerns about charging networks are reasonable. Or that PHEV is the right answer. That said if my father considered it, I would be concerned that his refusal to engage with smartphones would mean he didn't know where the chargers were / availability / how to pay etc (some cars have this built in but not all and none of that helps you on the sofa).
my parents have a similar usage pattern, and have a PHEV (xc40) - they bought it a few years ago when the EV market wasn't nearly as broad as it is today.
They're of an age where they struggle with some newer tech (only one of them has a mobile phone, and almost no apps on it) - so the idea of trying to do a long journey (all us kids live 4 hours from them) and needing the right app or whatever to charge on route was terrifying for them. They even get range anxiety from a petrol car when it goes below 1/4 a tank. For them a PHEV was a perfect choice - less resources in building it than a pure EV with lots of range, a lot less cost, they get through approx 2 tanks of fuel a year so no significant difference in CO2 output.
I think if you had a seperate petrol car for longer journeys most of that would go away, so I'd be steering them towards one of the really cheap shorter range EVs - mazda have a suv-shaped thing and honda have the e. No point spending lots of money on a battery you won't be using
It takes a fairly long time to turn petrol to varnish, it's just old blokes love imparting their "automotive wisdom" which was generally acquired from other old men in and age when cars worked very differently.
Varnish?
Whut, no ones taking about varnish.
The ethanol is the problem.
It's been covered by others, and for transparancy i firmly believe ICE has a LOT of life left.
For the miles your folks are doing, a NEW EV isnt going to cut the environmental mustard -it will never pay back it's "co2" debt so to speak, in fact buying new cars generally is not the right thing. The range anxiety thing as has been said is just a change in habit, however as has also been said PHEV's are the way to go for a lot of use cases, you don't need big heavy ones to do that - the FIAT 500 is actually surprisingly good. PHEV's contrary to popular belief do not weigh anymore than a full EV, but they are heavier than a traditional ICE. the big Q Do they need another car? I'd say stick with a small 950cc car like a mazda 2, Toyota Aygo type. Far less to go wrong and no worries about range.
I find the suggestion the environmentally, the existing car is better which as an isolated case, it is. However, if it's half decent, it gets sold second hand and someone else uses it. Their old car sells on. So on and so on until some knackered old oil burning death trap drops out of the bottom of the system. So one new EV is likely to replace an old end of life UCE when the whole system is considered
The only problem with that is generally cars are treated worse & worse as they go down the food chain, we'd use far fewer cars if they were all treated to proper servicing throughout their lifespans. Witness RNPs rescue of a few cars destined for the scrap heap.