[Closed] EV charging - some basic questions

Generally you would need allocated parking for this to work and they would need to be able to run the cable from your system to the charge point. If you don't have allocated parking how do you know you will be able to park close enough to actually reach it?
It's not really a great option to be trailing cables across a footpath, but could be done short-term I suppose.
13A charging does work, it's just blooming slow and you generally would prefer to have the car parked on a drive or in the garage for the 6-8 hours+ it might take to charge.
Usually someone "stealing" the charge won't be an issue as it is just not a quick thing to do, not many people would want to park up and leave their car somewhere for 1 or 2 hours for a charge on the sly. Chances are quite high for getting caught and going to a commercial rapid-charger will just be so much quicker.

I think most chargers have some sort of software lock , but I imagine you will run into issues with trailing cable across footpaths or areas that have public access. Mostly because someone will think it's unsafe or unsightly (not me btw, just the usual nimby stuff I hear about EV charging).
Check out people like co-charger or plugshare for using someone else's off street charging. Basically you agree (via an app) that you can regularly use someone else's off street charger.
13A charging can be unsafe for long term EV charging. The sockets can get pretty hot and aren't necessarily up to long term high current draw.

My charger can be controlled by an app to switch it off/timed for off peak etc.

I think that will be the least of your worries though, I’m not sure how the logistics of it not being on your own property would work.

Thanks all
The charger would be on my property but at the side of a public road, which is where I would need to park to use it
There is no footpath
I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times someone has parked on the road outside my house (excluding delivery drivers for a few minutes)

That sounds workable then, assuming there’s no legal issue.

Have a look at the EO Mini if you want something discreet that won’t draw attention to itself. Make sure you get the smart one.

Octopus were doing an offer on them if you’re prepared to change supplier (they also have a good off peak tariff).

IIRC in order to get the grant to help pay for installation of a charger you need to have a garage, driveway or allocated space in which to park the car.
If you're not worried about that then I'd say you need to talk to an installer about your particular setup to see if it's practical. More complicated = More expensive.

Sounds fine you just won't be able to get the grant and have to pay in full for the charger.

We own one and don't have any home charging, but we are 100 metres away from a 7kw public charger and a few miles from some 50kw that are in really nice places for trail running, so just stick it on charge and go for a run.

Three's someone near me who has a little cable cover/ ramp that they use. Their drive is too steep for a car so the run the cable across the pavement. It seems to work, but I suppose it depends on how grumpy/stealy the locals are!

Ah, missed a few posts, in particular yours about no footpath!

FWIW I charge mine on 13A plug overnight. The Leaf has a timer so it only tries to charge between specific times so I use cheap rate electricity from Octopus overnight. No idea how long it takes to charge but it is less that 11pm - 5am on a Mk1 Leaf with 13A connection. Off road and next to a garage so can't help with the other stuff.

Not sure I'd want to install a charger that requires the cable to run across public property for it to be used.

I can see if cables running across pavements gets too popular the government might introduce a law or something to stop it.

You will end up in the local news looking grumpy at the press photographer
https://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/17428841.beith-driver-told-council-safety-cover-cable-hazard/

Well in my case we're talking a distance of around a metre for the cable to run from the wall to the car - as I said there is no footpath
Presumably the govt has thought this through as I guess it will affect a lot of people once petrol/diesel cars are phased out?

Same situation here (almost). No drive, one wall of the house is on the roadway but decided against it as it's a solid white line. We would have gone EV recently otherwise. Hoping the council/govt will start thinking about public charging in rural areas.

Presumably the govt has thought this through as I guess it will affect a lot of people once petrol/diesel cars are phased out?

Nope. They have thought about private driveways and public rapid charging. No one has thought long and hard about how to serve urban streets short of giving councils grants, that relies on the LA having the skills and resources to implement, which many, if not most do not have.

No white line here so maybe a "Please do not park here - EV charging" sign would discourage anyone - not that parking has ever been a problem for the last 9 years we've lived here

Worth engaging with your local council, many are running trials of different solutions including sunken cable channels from house to car. Trawl some council meeting minutes and see who’s involved then get in touch to see what they’re up to.

I think it’s reasonable to run a cable a short way to your car though if you’re taking the sort of precautions (cable cover, etc) as someone carrying out works would do.

Most can have some way of locking them, either mechanical lock, some like Zappi do PIN, or some support RFID cards that you beep to activate.

The installer has to carry out and EV risk assessment in accordance with the regs before installing an EV charge point, part of that is risk of trip hazard. Also as mentioned above if you want the grant you need the off street parking. But the risk you have is one of someone tripping over your lead. An installer shouldn’t be installing one either like that but many won’t care as they won’t realise there’s an EVRA to be completed. I install over 400 commercial units a year and we always get some where walkways have to be blocked off for this reason.

You want get a grant if it’s roadside, you can use the below to tidy the cable up.

Oh and look it would seem they can install chargers on for those with no off street parking.

We’ve installed plenty roadside it’s not an issue, the install costs would probably fuel a diesel car for 10 years what with it being streetworks and groundworks 🤣 You may also struggle to get permission for it and you’ll also need some sort of liability insurance for it.

I’d not expect that one to be a personal charger.

Don't get a charger installed, get a IP44 (or better) 32A "outside socket" installed. Much cheaper, and no requirement for the stupid additional earth rod etc.

Then just buy a cheap EVSE, i use the OPENevse, which is open source, so if you really want to you can modify the firmware yoursel!

(The charging cable is locked to the car when charging, so someone can't easily steal your charger)

Presumably the govt has thought this through

Lol!

Then just buy a cheap EVSE, i use the OPENevse, which is open source, so if you really want to you can modify the firmware yoursel!

This sounds interesting - how does it work? Have you got it plugged into the 32A outside socket permanently?

I've got one installed outside my roadside house. It's sited just inside an alley behind a gate, but crosses a 1m public pavement directly outside. Luckily the pavement is just 3 terraced houses with me in the middle and doesn't go anywhere. I had to DIY it all, as already said, I didn't qualify for a grant and the 2 EV installers I spoke to didn't seem to want to know. So I bought a new 2nd hand untethered charger (someone who got a charger free with their PHEV but didn't intend ever charging) and paid a local electrician to install it. This was over 2 years ago and it sat unused for about a year as I didn't have an EV. I've had an EV now for 14 months, but have been using free local public chargers. When that ends (October) my intention is to have a covered 1m channel put into the pavement from my alley into the street so I can feed the cable thru (currently I've got one of those^ yellow and black cable cover channels for the odd times I've charged at home. The downside is obviously that I can't guarantee I'll always get to park directly outside but a) I don't need to charge every day b) I can always use one of many local public chargers if desperate, altho I could also just buy a longer cable.
This is the channel I intend to install

Doesn't running a charging cable across a footpath (one that has people using it frequently) contravene Rule One?

Shame no one makes a removable battery that you bring in with you, charge it in your shed and then slot it back in when you want to drive it

Shame no one makes a removable battery that you bring in with you, charge it in your shed and then slot it back in when you want to drive it

Renault Zoe battery weighs over 300kgs.

BTW, it's worth clarifying on why the earth rod requirement for car charging is so stupid/unnecessary:

1) the earth rod is nothing to do with the cars own HV battery, because that battery is NOT earth referenced in any way. You can touch earth and grab either Battery+ or Battery- and not get any shock what-so-ever because the battery is just that, a battery, consisting of galvanically isolated chemical cells where the only potential generated is between the +ve and -ve of that battery. To get a shock you'd have to grab battery+ and battery- at the SAME TIME.

2) the eath rod is there to protect the car user from getting a shock off their metal car when there has been a house supply wiring fault of a specific nature. This fault, a simultaneous loss of protective earth AND the neutral conduction results in everything becoming live when any switch is turned on, and voltage can pass from the live wire, through a load, and into the Neutral, but not "escape" back down either that Neutral or the protective Earth. This fault is as you might expect, not that common (although it is more common on certain supply layouts that share Earth and Neutral) The idea therefore which sounds initally sensible, is to add an extra earth rod for your car charger, so that should this fault occur the metal chassis of your car does not become live when it is plugged into your EVSE.

3) The problem is however that there are currently lots of other metal things in your home that will become live, irrespective of if your car is being charged or not, and they include:

any metal bodied electrical item (toaster, oven, microwave,kettle,)
any metal plumbing (taps, sink, washing machine, dishwasher (not the wife!), shower head, radiators, towel rails etc etc

So, why if the danger is considered so great to us from a car becoming live, do we not insist on having that independant earth rod fittd ANYWAY, ie for all houses! And of course, modern cars are increasinly not made of metal, are pretty much 100% painted, anodised, undersealed, or trimmed.

Try it, try to find some bare metal on a modern car! Ok if you drive an old Defender you'll probably manage, but on any modern EV, it's really really difficult to actually find any "bare metal" certainly far far harder than to find say a tap to touch, of which there are many in your house!!

And it gets worse. I can guarantee that pretty much everyone will regularily touch a metal tap in their house when either not wearing any shoes (the rubber soles of which offer a very real reduction in shocking current) or worse, when actually sat in a nice bath full of water. How often do you go out to your car in your bare feet?

So why do we need an earth rod (or alternative protection device) for our car and not for our house? Simples, money! With the charger installation Grant, electricians can get a nice chunk of cash and few people will argue because "safety init mate"

My Pod Point charger doesn’t need an earth rod.

https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/earth-rod-details

I agree with maxtorque's analysis (above), however the pod-point blurb that tenfoot's linked to made me blink a bit! Under the heading 'Risk in case of Neutral Failure", they describe the fault mechanism, then go on to say blithely "Inside the home this is not as dangerous as it might seem, because if all conductors are at the same potential there is no potential difference between them to do harm." WOT??? All the conductors may be at the same potential, but so is your steel sink, and having that at 240V is most certainly a problem...

I had to have my gas earthed and water mains earthed, they’ve never been earthed for some reason. That’s all that was needed for mine, the water has been earthed with a rod as it enters the house under concrete.

Equipotential bonding, as is the name for making sure all metal objects in your house, from the toaster to the radiators are tied to earth is very sensible. This is because a fault where the casing of a device becomes live, or a wiring fault that shorts inside your boiler to the metal pipework is significantly likely (statistically speaking) to occur. So, nailing everything to earth in general is a good thing!

When it isn't a good thing, is when the main incomming supply looses its earth and neutral connection simultaneously, because then your "nailing everything to earth" has just become "nailing everything to live"......

(statstically that failure however is much less likely to occur, and so in general, it's better to equi-potential bond everything, and that's what we do.)

Wow so people installing their own DIY charge points and dismissing the lost neutral as something that may never happen.
The loss of neutral is not a house fault but a network fault and it is not a simultaneous loss of earth and neutral as they are one and the same thing until they enter the property. The fault is a loss of neutral on the network side. The return path is then through any metal object connected to the earth terminal on a PME system, basically 90% of UK supplies.
The metalwork in a house will be bonded which is a form of protection, the metal car stood on rubber tyres is an unbonded potential and much more of a risk however small that risk is. To dismiss all this and install your own DIY non protected charge point is crazy.
Lost neutral in a PME or TNCS system is a reality and that is why car charge points have needed either an earth rod or a device to isolate the supply and earth in case of fault. There is also the requirement to have the correct RCD as the majority of RCD units in domestic premises can be blinded by the electronics and DC leakage in an electric car. This is why a car charge point can’t be connected through a normal RCD protected DB in a domestic property.

However I do agree that a lost neutral will have many other aspects and faults that should show up. I wouldn’t however be installing a charge point without allowing for it. I assume those that install a socket DIY still inform the DNO that they have done so which is another requirement of BS7671, also having any cables running across a path isn’t allowed as per the amendment to BS7671 within the EV risk assessment.

I just put petrol in my car and it seems to turn on, I didnt even have to install anything at home.

I just put petrol in my car and it seems to turn on, I didnt even have to install anything at home.

No but when you drive it loads of pollution will spew out of the exhaust.

Plus, having driven a few EVs, petrol and diesel cars are crap. Sounds like you haven't realised this yet 🙂

the metal car stood on rubber tyres is an unbonded potential

Car tyres are conductive. Surely this keeps the car at earth potential?

Our last house was earthed to I think the gas and water mains (Edwardian, metal pipes). The gas main was replaced with plastic so that oath disappeared. The other earth was faulty. The shocks in the shower and bath as a result were not pleasant! I'd no **** around with earthing. Our ev charger has its own dedicated ground spike and is separate from the main house circuit (splits off after the meter).

And now I've read maxtourque's post and feel schooled....

Plus, having driven a few EVs, petrol and diesel cars are crap. Sounds like you haven’t realised this yet 🙂

Cant be bothered with the hassle and expense!

I just put petrol in my car and it seems to turn on, I didnt even have to install anything at home

I charge my car for free at a nearby public charger, 5k miles has cost me £10.

Free charging is going to be time limited though isn't it.

I just put petrol in my car and it seems to turn on, I didnt even have to install anything at home.

I just have to put much cheaper electrons into my car and it turns on. I don't need to install anything at home but I chose to because it lets me spend less time "refueling" my car than you do.

Dangerous stuff petrol.

From UK Fire Service "Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result"

Free charging is going to be time limited though isn’t it.

Yes - but they always gloss over that part.

Dangerous stuff petrol.

An ironic high horse is it ?

From UK Fire Service “Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fleetnews.co.uk/amp/news/manufacturer-news/2020/11/27/vehicle-fire-data-suggests-higher-incident-rate-for-evs

I'd like an e-rifter but I'll wait thanks but let's not pretend they are a silver bullet

Free charging is going to be time limited though isn’t it.

Yes, it ran out on the first of April but as the council or incompetent they still haven’t enabled the card reader so it’s still free.

Yes – but they always gloss over that part.

Not really no.

When it does I’ll use my charger overnight when I’m sleeping, it’ll be like asking Jeeves to fuel the car for me.

I’d like an e-rifter but I’ll wait thanks but let’s not pretend they are a silver bullet

No one pretends to do that either.

Oh you missed a bit.

Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make a fraudulent insurance claim or as an act of vandalism. One in 12 reported stolen vehicles will be burnt out.

Cant be bothered with the hassle and expense!

Fortunately some of us can.

Looking at under £200/mo deals on three different EVs all with plenty of range for my usage. Still have a diesel as well but it'll get little use.

I just have to put much cheaper electrons into my car and it turns on. 

They said that about diesel fuel for cars for decades then once everyone had one the price overtook petrol and never fell. And then they realised that actually its terrible for the environment and has caused untold damage to the health of those living and working in cities. Now they are on the verge of being either charged to enter cities or banned entirely. Where do all those rare materials for the battery come from again? And how long before we run out of those or have a war over access to them on our terms like we did with oil...

I'm waiting to see what happens with electric cars but I'd be willing to bet that once most people are committed to them, the cost will rise accordingly. The same happened with the cost of LPG when that was touted as a cheaper fuel, it rose considerably.

The same happened with the cost of LPG when that was touted as a cheaper fuel, it rose considerably.

Except of course LPG was a shit idea and till requires fossil fuels, yes.

Except of course LPG was a shit idea

Based on what exactly ?

till requires fossil fuels, yes.

A bit like your EV.

A bit like your EV.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Not really no.</span>

Based on what exactly ?

Well as mentioned it’s a fossil fuel, manufactures showed little interest in converting to them, converting yourself wasn’t cheap and it was really taken up by fuel Suppliers.

Ah ok. Your opinions based on this little island alone I see.

And if we removed all the fossil fuels from your EV you'd be going no where.

But don't let that stop you taking the moral high ground.

I like it from the point of reduction in local polution but don't fool your self your being green.

I like it from the point of reduction in local polution but don’t fool your self your being green.

I’m not, I keep telling you this. I chose to go electric as it doesn’t produce emissions whilst in use, they’re really nice to drive, it was a cheaper option, I got a nice car by going EV and it’s cost me significantly less to run.

But don’t let that stop you taking the moral high ground.

I’m not doing that either.

Ah ok. Your opinions based on this little island alone I see.

Well sort of as it’s where I live.

And if we removed all the fossil fuels from your EV you’d be going no where.

It’s a not a fossil fuel in itself though.

I’m waiting to see what happens with electric cars but I’d be willing to bet that once most people are committed to them, the cost will rise accordingly

Unquestionably, but at the moment, especially as a company car it makes total sense to have one, taking into account BIK and mileage costs at around 5p or less (if you’re on cheap rate electric). Until everyone else catches up with the inevitable price increases, I’ll fill my boots, thanks.

I’m waiting to see what happens with electric cars but I’d be willing to bet that once most people are committed to them, the cost will rise accordingly

I don't think so. There are enough people who need cheap cars that they'll either make and sell cheap EVs or nothing at all.

They said that about diesel fuel for cars for decades then once everyone had one the price overtook petrol and never fell.

It's a different context. Crude oil is a finite resource, and new fields need to be discovered. Then, each barrel of crude produces a certain amount of each fraction of HCs. Each of these has different uses which hence all have different supples and demands, so it's very complex. Electricity on the other hand is more or less unlimited when generated renewably. Want more leccy? Build more wind farms and solar. It's all the same, and not only that transport usage is likely to be a small portion of everything else we use it for. Yes, we will see markets doing things that markets do but don't draw too many parallels with what happened with petrol and diesel.

Where do all those rare materials for the battery come from again? And how long before we run out of those or have a war over access to them on our terms like we did with oil…

You might be surprised to learn that you're not the first person to think of that. And I'm fairly sure the people investing billions in developing battery cars might've also considered this. There is a huge amount of work going into new battery technologies and chemistries, I'm fairly sure that the engineering world will respond to demand, not the other way round, given how big demand is.

And let's face it, oil isn't exactly plentiful or evenly distributed; nor is it environmentally benign. The difference is that pollution is an intrinsic part of fossil fuel burning, whereas poor mining practices aren't necessary for the production of lithium and the rest. And let's not forget that the materials in dead batteries don't go anywhere, they are either being recycled or will be recycled in the near future.

There are clearly potential problems with the electrification of the world's vehicle fleet, but let's not forget that there are already huge problems with running it on oil. Burning fossil fuels isn't a solution either.

I've read plenty of times that crude oil is far too valuable to simply burn. It's an extremely useful substance important for all sorts of processes and manufacturing.

Another question from me - car's arriving tomorrow, supposedly. I've got to go to a race in Windsor, and I'm considering taking the new car.

It has a 194 mile range on the WTLP cycle. The trip is all motorway and it's 124 miles to the race. There are loads of chargers of all different networks, even if I have to go all the way to Membury where there are 8 chargers just off the motorway it should be ok. But a few questions:

If I just rock up at any old charger on Zapmap will I have to fart about with some arduous sign up? Do I need to pay attention to which network it's on?

I think there's sign up for each charging network at the mo. This is the biggest pita as far as I can see with EVs (and I have still ordered one btw). More and more are moving to a tap and pay model.

Most require you to sign in and most charge more if you don’t have a monthly subscription. Some are taking contactless with no sign up now too. Watch the charges as the majority will cost you more per mile in electric than it would in diesel. Try to charge at home on a normal or cheap rate and only use motorway ones as a last resort or just out enough in to get you home.

More and more are switching to contactless payment, I can’t recall when I last seen a one that required an account but that I’ve not been far for a year. Zap-map is quite up to date to what they use.

The Topgear boys have been up here filming, looks like they’re doing an EV caravaning road trip. I passed them earlier tonight, it’s one huge convoy they have following them around.

More and more are switching to contactless payment, I can’t recall when I last seen a one that required an account but that I’ve not been far for a year. Zap-map is quite up to date to what they use.

If you come to Scotland you will discover that most are free just now - except you need to pre-register... which costs £20/yr and takes them about 10 days to post the card out. You can also register on an app which was presumably some university intern's project as the interface is not actually very mobile friendly, needs a credit card (despite not actually seeming to charge you) and is unable to accept credit cards issued in 2020 or 2021! Oh and it crashes without warning if you haven't turned your data on... I'm amazed they made it through Apple QA checks.

I'm more concerned about getting caught out without having pre-registered.

I'll be able to just rock up and do it, I don't need a card posted out to me or something right?

If you come to Scotland you will discover that most are free just now – except you need to pre-register

Heading through at the end of July, I’ve not looked into how they work yet but heard they’re charging from June.

If I just rock up at any old charger on Zapmap will I have to fart about with some arduous sign up? Do I need to pay attention to which network it’s on?

Well for a lot of them like Genie Point you will have to download an app and set up an account. but I recommend you just use zap-map to filter for "contactless" as the payment method and it will show you the chargers where you just need to plug your car in and flash your phone or contactless bank debit card at it to start charging. Alternatively aim for Instavolt and Shell re-charge chargers which are all contactless. I think a lot of the newer BP Pulse chargers are also contactless these days. all us EV drivers should really be voting with our wallets and patronising chargepoint providers which just use contactless and market forces will consign charging apps to the dustbin of history

I recommend you just use zap-map to filter for “contactless” as the payment method

That's what I wanted to hear, thanks 🙂

What about chargers that are at hotels or health clubs and stuff? Is it ok to just drop in and use them? I'd have thought they'd be private.

EDIT looks like the Ecotricity app will be useful though as it covers the service stations on the M4.

No you can use them. You may have to notify the hotel reception in case they try to charge you for parking. Osprey chargers found at lots of pubs are good and they are also contactless

EDIT looks like the Ecotricity app will be useful though as it covers the service stations on the M4.

Electric Highway/Ecotricity are a basket case/joke company. Its easier to ask which of their chargers are working than which aren't. I'd avoid them for now. However recently Gridserve took a stake in Electric Highway and are replacing all the Electric Highway chargers with modern chargers with contactless payment but that's going to take until the end of the summer.

Unless there’s some sort of charge for the use of the car park it’s a free for all.

Heading through at the end of July, I’ve not looked into how they work yet but heard they’re charging from June.

Changing management company on 1st July, but apparently, the management co don't set the fees so most should still be free - but not sure how long that will last...

Electric Highway/Ecotricity are a basket case/joke company. Its easier to ask which of their chargers are working than which aren’t. I’d avoid them for now

Yeah they mostly look broken on the map. It's a shame as I'd rather have stopped at a service station with a Starbucks or similar but that requires a gamble, so it'd be wise to head into Windsor to a Shell and sit there for a bit.

Cheers Poly.

It’s a shame as I’d rather have stopped at a service station with a Starbucks or similar but that requires a gamble, so it’d be wise to head into Windsor to a Shell and sit there for a bit.

Zap-map is your friend. Filter for Ecotricity as the network and contactless as payment type and it will show you all the locations where Gridserve have replaced the old Ecotricity chargers. So far its only two locations, the new 12 supercharger hub at Rugby and one 50kWh charger at Cherwell Valley services on the M40.

Membury would be a great location for me but it's right out in the countryside. I wonder if that will make it difficult for them to wire in several extra MW worth of power.

I used to live quite near Membury Services (hence my user name) its not quite the back of Beyond. Gridserve have battery backup to handle peak use at their electric forecourt site in Essex so I guess they could use that tech to handle sites with challenging grid infrastructure. Also there are new high power rapid chargers now with built in battery backup to allow 150 kW and faster charging in areas with poor grid service

EDIT looks like the Ecotricity app will be useful though as it covers the service stations on the M4.

You'll def need a plan B if you intend to use the Electric Highway (that's the current sit. see above recent Gridserve deal)
of the rapid chargers I use
Instavolt (contactless) I've never had an issue with
Osprey (app/rfid/contactless) are good, but I've had an issue recently with my shell recharge card.
Geniepoint (app/rfid) I find a bit hit and miss on charger reliability. I would def set up the geniepoint webapp at home beforehand. not when you're there. You can then also set up one of your credit/debit cards as an rfid card, as a back up.