[Closed] European 'wilderness'

Poland is perhaps your best bet for this. Or Norway and Finland

But of course the highlands remain to me by far the best of anywhere I have visited or know of

There's a chap I know who did some shepherding in the Alps a few years back. Proper back of beyond nowhere for days/weeks, food/supplies were helicoptered in.

Central Spain do you? Less than 1 human pre square km is on a par with Lapland but a bit warmer in the Spring. Did this trip in Sept, epic vistas and great riding.
Montanasvacias

molgrips - do you mean lack of management/human intervention, or do you mean distance from humans settlement?

TJ, genuine question - why do you say that?

As a swiss resident (not for long!), it is very apparent that, unsurprisingly, ever cm2 is tightly managed. At the top of the Matterhorn you get super fast 4G and there is always a wee sign pointing you to various destinations and how long it'll take on well marked trails to walk there.

Ok slight exaggeration, but you get my drift. I've not really been anywhere else truly wild, but as a scot, I have spent a lot of time in the highlands - and I still find it incredible how fast you run ou of any infrastructure and are suddenly truly 'on your own, sunshine!'

I love it.

But, it's not exactly a wilderness - its all managed to some degree, no? Just not as tightly as Switzerland!

Theres huge vast chunks of the US and Canada that are proper wilderness, would love to visit there - both for being totally cut off, and a long way for any human intervention too.

Auvergne Region in France.

Iceland has some of the last really wild bits in europe (by some definitions of wilderness) but their taste for whalemeat makes visiting again a nope from me.
But apart from that go east and north.
In Scotland real wilderness comes with altitude, but lower down its a largely man made landscape (denuded by people and kept that way by deer overpopulation).

Shortcut is to Google image search 'europe from space at night', and look for the dark bits.

molgrips – do you mean lack of management/human intervention, or do you mean distance from humans settlement?

Just large areas that are not farmland and not city. I'm talking on purely aesthetic terms not ecological/scientific. So probably the latter.

Theres huge vast chunks of the US and Canada that are proper wilderness, would love to visit there

Much less than you'd think, in the US. Alaska is about the best place to go. Most 'outdoor' destinations like national parks are heavily managed as actual parks - like tourist attractions. Overwhelming rules, regulations and sanitisation in many of them.

Canada more so though, and Alaska - but this is all certain ecosystems - tundra and Taiga forest mostly. The reason I asked about Europe is that the ecosystem would be different, with dense temperate forest and marshes etc.

Iceland has some of the last really wild bits in europe (by some definitions of wilderness) but their taste for whalemeat makes visiting again a nope from me.

TJ, genuine question – why do you say that?

You mean why I think the highlands the best? ( apart from the scenery) Right to roam, recognition from the vast majority of landowners that folk walking and cycling are no threat. Wildlife ( slowly returning but so much better than when I was a kid) No need to carry water means you can go longer without having to return to cilisation. Accessibility - its literally get on a train and set off walking. NO killer critters

No where else I know of has all this. I have trekked all over the place in europe and wider but nothing comes close to Scotland for making it pleasant and easy to spend time in " the wilds"

If your interested in European wilderness this is an interesting site.

https://wilderness-society.org/

Good article here.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/oct/07/five-europe-best-wilderness-spotting-wildlife-romania-poland-finland-greece-portugal

In Romania, wilderness come to you..

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/22/how-the-brown-bear-became-public-enemy-number-one-in-rural-romania

No where else I know of has all this.

Scandinavia.

Scotland is good, but there's no one place that's best. It'd be nice to see different ecosystems, as I suggested above.

I do fancy Romania, also for a really easy trip the Black Forest sounds fun.

Scandenavia does not have right to roam in the scottish sense and distances are much larger so it not nearly as accessible.

Auvergne Region in France

I expect it's very nice but for a wilderness that photo seems to show an awful lot of tracks.

TJ, I'm with you on those items, it really is amazing.

Scandenavia does not have right to roam in the scottish sense

I think it does...?

Access is plenty good enough for me, at least. You can get PT to most towns and get off where you want. Without wishing to get into a pointless competition, the access situation is excellent both in Scotland and across Scandinavia, and I'm happy with that.

I was also going to suggest Romania following the recent deaths from bear attacks, although a video I watched of some people who travelled there recently would suggest it is suffering from a huge explosion in local tourism leading to most of the country being overrun with people and a HUGE litter problem.

I imagine northern Scandinavia would be the closest you can get to true wilderness in Europe. Basically, if you want wilderness, get thee to those places with the losest population density.

Aye that will do molgrips.

The detail of right to roam is different.

northern Norway is vast.

Basically, if you want wilderness, get thee to those places with the losest population density.

You're probably right about Northern Europe. But the problem is that much of the low-population high-wilderness areas are far north, which means that we end up associating wilderness with taiga forest or tundra. What attracts me to say, the Carpathian Mountains is that it's a different climate and a different biome.

I love that pic of the Auvergne above. I love the area and have trekked there a couple of times. However a pic covered in built trails is hardly wilderness in any sense and it does not give much feeling of remoteness. Was it posted ironically?

This intrigues me:

France every time but one on the list I have never made it to is the Ariege.
At one time it was designated the last wilderness area in France.
It is now listed under Parc naturel régional des Pyrénées ariégeoises.
Go play.

I did a little bit of walking on the Appalachian Trail, which was fascinating and different, being surrounded by forest all day every day was strange to me - I'm used to views. I scrambled to the top of a crag on top of a hill to try and find a view, I got something like this, with forested mountains as far as I could see:

I'd like to find similar in Europe.

I expect it’s very nice but for a wilderness that photo seems to show an awful lot of tracks.

It does, but hey.. nice pic.

And I think thats what molgips wants, some nice pics to look at whilst he's tapping away at work.

Imagine how disappointing it would be to struggle through miles of unspoilt wilderness and find molgrips asking for a photo!..or me having a cheeky wild poo for that matter...

Poland for that I think Molgrips - or Futher east along the tatras

The Chernobyl exclusion zone is becoming pretty wild.

I was also going to suggest Romania following the recent deaths from bear attacks, although a video I watched of some people who travelled there recently would suggest it is suffering from a huge explosion in local tourism leading to most of the country being overrun with people and a HUGE litter problem.

This is very true, I did a mtb tour in the mountains a couple of years ago with a local guide (ex shepard). We went to a spot that was a popular tourist spot (two rocks that looked vaguely like two woman), complete with ski lift to get to the rocks. The amount of litter was absolutely unreal - our guide was embarrassed by it - he put it down to the older generations not being used to 'going out in the country' plus not being aware of being environmentally friendly, and just tended to leave stuff around - there is a lot more environmental teaching in schools nowadays, so things should improve. The other thing that we noted was that if you were further than 300m from the lift station there was no litter whatsoever as the tourists only turned up, walked to the rocks, ate some food, then went home!

Can't say i've ever thought of the highland as wilderness tho, except for maybe a few bits of ancient forest - all the rest is a man made landscape. Likewise, snowdonia, lakes, etc.

Molgrips did put " wilderness" in inverted commas. You are right in that almost all of europe is manmade landscapes and much of the highlands is huge deer and sheep farms

The black forest is all plantation is it not for one example

I did a little bit of walking on the Appalachian Trail,

I’d love to have a go at the more remote sections of that.

Much of Scandinavia, as others say, is closer to wilderness than we have in the UK. Generally, their right-to-roam is as good as Scotland. The main difference is, perhaps, that its actually bloody tough going to leave the trails, which are often marked (paint splashes etc).
We went to Rogen (Sweden) and Femunden (Norway) a couple of summers ago, for a 12 day canoeing trip from 1 to the other. In 110km (including long portages) we crossed no roads until near the end. Halfway through the trip I climbed a hill, off trail which was tough walking and made me consider how alone I was in the middle of nowhere (mates stayed in camp), and looked out over an enormous expanse of country in which there were virtually no settlements at all, certainly none visible.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/4434/35669012613_b85ea85660_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/4434/35669012613_b85ea85660_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/WkX1L6 ]IMG_5730-Pano[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/77080486@N05/ ]Mal Grey[/url], on Flickr

I've also been to southern Sweden's forests. These are managed, but not planted, and are full of lakes to paddle on. However, they don't feel as "wild" as the north.

Both areas are described via links on my blog site if in interested; https://www.wildernessisastateofmind.co.uk/scandinavia

Iceland certainly feels wild, and its possible to escape from people in the centre for weeks. It seems to have become rather busy in the more accessible areas (I've not been since 1986!)

Whilst the Highlands aren't as remote or a true wilderness, I agree with TJ that they are amongst the most remarkable landscapes I have visited. And if you make an effort you can escape from it all; last Easter a group of us undertook a canoe trip with lots of portages that crossed Inverpolly for 9 days, and only on the 7th day did we meet another soul. That's a whole week in Scotland, during a holiday period, without meeting anybody. It did take a rather imaginative route though! More here; https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/destinations/across_inverpolly_by_canoe-12352?fbclid=IwAR0Tg1Cv5Iytsns4mg14d552eB6KHQ_25qwEshrSnw4xxqcyAMl9TxDxOc8

I always say that the landscapes of Assynt, Fisherfield and Torridon are not bettered by anywhere else in the world for beauty. Its a combination of hills, lakes, moors and that fabulous, intricate coastline that do it for me.

I've not really been to the Alps other than short ski (drinking) trips, but whilst the higher parts no doubt have many quiet corners, it doesn't appeal to me in a "wilderness" way. The Pyrenees feel a little wilder, in my limited experience.

I'm intrigued by the forests and rivers of Poland and other bits of eastern Europe, and have looked at paddling trips there.

I've also been attracted by the look of the landscape in the Balkan countries, and I suspect there are some pretty wild and untouched places there.

America has some amazing wilderness areas, not just the National Parks. Even there, only the central parts are busy, but there are rules and regulations that apply. Some of the best areas seem to be those near to National Parks, but not actually in them.

Canada remains very high on "the list", and has to be the ultimate "western" country for true wilderness travel, if only for the fact that it is enormous and everybody lives huddled in the southern parts.

West coast of Jura is about as remote as it gets in the UK. Spectacular landscape of sea and mountains. Definutely on my list to get back and explore.

Many of the treks I have done in ~Scotland we have spent days without seeing anyone else. This to me is one of the big differences with other European trekking I have done. In most of Europe you are on defined trekking routes, you cannot go off the paths and you keep on meeting up with folk - often the same folk

IN Scotland I make up my own routes using the "scottish hill tracks" book and maps. We have been on some routes I doubt anyone else had been on for decades!

I'd forgotten Jura. Completely agree, the west coast is amazing, and the terrain extremely rugged! We found a fantastic cave to sleep in, on the raised beach above a wonderful cove with views out over the distant isles. The floor was dried goat dung, which smouldered slightly when we built a fire!

Look at getting to Kiruna in Sweden and then head north, east or west from there. Most of Scandinavia is pretty sparsely populated, so as soon as you leave most roads outside the "densely" populated south (ok, south of Gävle) you are into forest.

Finland has just a huge swathe of forest on the north part and Norway is pretty much the same.

Surprised no-one has mentioned Slovakia. Beautiful country IMO, plenty of mountains forests and lakes, with varying levels of wildness. Decreasing levels, to be honest, as the country gets more developed and the ski industry moves in. But still. Definitely worth a look.

As you descend from the Montanasvacias route high point, this is what you see.

bikebouy's Auvergne photo is very clearly taken in a ski resort! As with all ski resorts, wilderness may well be just "off the back".

tjagain

...NO killer critters

I'd venture that it's not wilderness unless there's an abundance of killer critters.

We humans are pretty good at eradicating threats to our lives.

Both areas are described via links on my blog site if in interested; https://www.wildernessisastateofmind.co.uk/scandinavia

Thanks - a good lunchtime read.

I've done a couple of trips based on Abisko, in Sweden near the Norwegian border on the way to Narvik, and I'd love to have the opportunity to explore Sarek a bit.

A “self-sufficient” friend of mine from Saskatchewan would make an annual journey deep into the Yukon wilderness - a week’s hike in and a week’s hike out - carrying only basics in terms of food and gear, plus a sawed-off shotgun for protection against grizzlies.

As for Europe, though, I would strongly suggest the East, including the Moldovan and/or Ukrainian Carpathians.

plus a sawed-off shotgun for protection against grizzlies

..and once he's fired-off a couple of shots and is now confronted by a mildly-annoyed bear, what's he gonna do next?

I've spent a few days in the Finnish arctic in winter - if it's wild enough for wolves and bears, I think that counts.

Side note on tracks.
They're not necessarily a sign of human intrusion. Depending on the size of the local fauna and the age of the landscape they can be just the way things get around.

FYI if lost in Africa don't assume finding a "track" means civilisation is at either end.
EDIT: Also don't assume you are the only species using it.

..and once he’s fired-off a couple of shots and is now confronted by a mildly-annoyed bear, what’s he gonna do next?

Yeah, I really don't think there is a fool-proof way of dealing with grizzlies, but he was born and raised in the Canadian wilderness. If anyone was going to know what to do in the event of a grizzly attack, I expect it would be him. And if he failed, he would also be the sort to accept the consequences, including his own death. You don't venture out like he did without understanding what you are doing.

Epicyclo - perhaps true but it keeps wild camping rather more peaceful knowing there are no killer critters around that might eat you

You can use buck shot or slugs in a 12G. The recoil would probably be enough to throw the sawn-off back into your face and knock you out, so you wouldn't feel the grizzly eat you, however.

Sxon - how does your friend carry enough food? Or is it like those "off grid" people that rely on trains / planes to bring stuff to them? Or does he live off hunting?

Sxon – how does your friend carry enough food? Or is it like those “off grid” people that rely on trains / planes to bring stuff to them? Or does he live off hunting?

He eats like a chipmunk anyway (that is, very little!), but he would harvest berries, other wild edibles, and fish while trekking. (I had said rabbits, but I think this was not normal, so deleted it.)

As for water, it was boiling and water purification tablets.

Side note on tracks.
They’re not necessarily a sign of human intrusion.

Very good point. Even 1/4 mile from my front door I can find ‘tracks’ made by muntjac, foxes and/or badgers going off into woods. The tracks lead through such thick waist-high undergrowth that no human could be either responsible for, or bothered to explore. Of course, if you did, you’d soon end up at a field, road/path, or back-garden.

OP, have a look at the (middle) Danube, Croatia? Drava River. Might want a canoe as well as a bike 😉

Also, the Dinaric Alps. If you want ‘edge of wilderness’ type trails then the recently opened Julian Alps Hiking Trail and into Triglavski region looks awe-inspiring.

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-kill-a-full-grown-grizzly-bear-with-a-shotgun

trying to reminind myself of the Hohe Tauern area in Austria, I found this amusingly titled website:

https://european-wilderness.network/

bikebouy’s Auvergne photo is very clearly taken in a ski resort! As with all ski resorts, wilderness may well be just “off the back”.

Nabbed off the internet innit. What lies behind the camera is just as beautiful.. I've been there a good many times.

The tracks are mainly from animals, yeah some are human, most are animals.

You need to check the place out, I'm serious. If you are looking for somewhere secluded with a smattering of medieval villages that pretty much consist of two cafes, a bar and a barber then this is your place.

It's 5hrs by car, and a lifetime away from the UK.

tjagain

Epicyclo – perhaps true but it keeps wild camping rather more peaceful knowing there are no killer critters around that might eat you

Too true, and it's something I really appreciate after spending a huge chunk of my life in places with plenty killer critters. 🙂

teethgrinder

You can use buck shot or slugs in a 12G. The recoil would probably be enough to throw the sawn-off back into your face and knock you out, so you wouldn’t feel the grizzly eat you, however.

Not necessarily.

When hunting feral pigs in the bush in Oz for close up work we used a Rossi Brush gun which is basically a sawn off. A longer weapon would be unwieldy.

Loaded with buckshot and Brenneke slugs it was sufficient to stop or totally discourage a large charging boar. Buckshot first, Brenneke if needed.

I'm pretty sure a faceful of buckshot or a Brenneke slug would discourage even a grizzly. However I'd rather not find out. 🙂

Malvernrider - julian alps are very good - done some trekking there myself. However potable water is hard to get and wild camping is banned in the national park which changes things somewhat for me.

Its such a small area it has to be like this but it somewhat tames the wildness of the experience

Scandenavia does not have right to roam in the scottish sense

I think it does…?

Not Scandinavia, but Finland definitely has a very open right to roam. It states that anywhere not dedicated to some activity, such as fields for farming, pastures for grazing, yards for living, factories for factoring, etc., is open to traversing on non-motorised vehicles (including horses and e-bikes), temporary camping and foraging stuff from the ground, such as berries, mushrooms and confier cones, as long as no damage is caused. Fishing and fires require landowner permission.

So basically it means that owning land does not allow one to control access to it.

I believe Sweden and Norway have very similar situations, but in Denmark access is more restricted.

Romania, Turkey.... Georgia seems to be Asia though considered the border between the 2 continents.
The Balkans certainly has some significant areas of wilderness.

I'd expect the same with Belarus, Latvia & Estonia sort of area but haven't been there.

in Denmark access is more restricted.

Can't see myself seeking wilderness in Denmark, to be honest 🙂

ISTR in Norway that 'everyman's right' allows you to go anywhere unless it's fenced in (e.g. a garden) or you would destroy crops.

Sweden. Allemansrätten

Was in Tromsø this week for work. It’s pretty remote up there, not half as remote as some of the places in between though. This was the view out of the plane somewhere south of Bodø on the way back home yesterday. It looks truly magnificent.

[img] [/img]

It should also be remembered that much of the "wilderness" in the Scottish Highlands is relatively recent. Signs of human habitation can be found almost everywhere. Of course, many of the straths and glens were forcibly depopulated during the Clearances (ignore that dickhead Neil Oliver, he's not even a qualified historian) but when you read AE Robertsons accounts of his Munro bagging adventures (mostly between the wars} you find that there were still folk in many isolated places even then.

*Waves from Sweden*

It’s pretty quiet here, if you ever want to film an end of the world movie it’s a pretty good place, everywhere is deserted , all of the time.

Shite for a lively night out, great for wild nights out. DYSWIDT?

I've been kayaking in East Greenland (some definitions don't count Greenland as Europe) and there are large areas that are physically untouched by humans, although the wildlife may have been affected by humans in adjacent areas. Our guide carried a pump action shotgun with solid slugs in case we met a polar bear that couldn't be deterred. The instructions were, as a last resort, to wait until it was 3m away, when it would stand on its hind legs ready to drop onto you, and then you could shoot it in the chest.

The Polish Tatra's are busy and over used.
The Slovak side however... We really liked it. Walk down the ridge that is the border and you can see the difference. Makes for a start to the day when the ranger is telling you the bear is across the valley and the wolves are out the park at the moment...

Go North - Russia, Finland, Sweden, Norway all have some proper wild places, Islands included.

The instructions were, as a last resort, to wait until it was 3m away, when it would stand on its hind legs ready to drop onto you, and then you could shoot it in the chest.

When we trained for that situation the discussion was if you shoot the geologist in the foot instead. Bear eats the evidence. You get away....

matt_outandabout

Bear eats the evidence. You get away….

Bear eats the geologist every time.

Every smart bear knows that the geotech assistants are muscular and stringy from carting all that gear around and bashing big spikes into rocky ground.

Besides that, they're fitter and therefore faster. 🙂

It should also be remembered that much of the “wilderness” in the Scottish Highlands is relatively recent. Signs of human habitation can be found almost everywhere. Of course, many of the straths and glens were forcibly depopulated during the Clearances (ignore that dickhead Neil Oliver, he’s not even a qualified historian) but when you read AE Robertsons accounts of his Munro bagging adventures (mostly between the wars} you find that there were still folk in many isolated places even then.

Very true. On our trip across Inverpolly, we spent the night at Clais, where the ruin is of the classic shape between fallen gable ends. We re-roofed the windward end with a tarp as our living room for the night, likely where the livestock were kept not that many generations ago, as they were always put to windward. In these places, and in the bothies I also frequent, there is a real and tangible link with a past way of life that was only given up around the time of my grandparents' young adulthood. At its most extreme, St Kilda, with a way of life almost unchanged for centuries, was only evacuated 7 years before my dad was born.

The winter before last, we spent a few nights at Uags on the tip of the Applecross peninsula, and there the gap between those that lived here and ourselves seemed incredibly close, especially whilst huddled round the fire on a very cold winter's night (the rock pools froze over); an amazing spot to spend time and ponder the lives of people who eked out a living in land we now use for leisure. I like to think they will have derived much pleasure from living in such beautiful places, though clearly they endured much hardship.

This "wilderness" of ours, is a new thing. It is, though, still an amazingly special landscape.(ends mildly drunken off-topic waffling. Which is surely the definition of a true forum post)

bikebouy’s Auvergne photo is very clearly taken in a ski resort! As with all ski resorts, wilderness may well be just “off the back”.

Nabbed off the internet innit. What lies behind the camera is just as beautiful.. I’ve been there a good many times.

The tracks are mainly from animals, yeah some are human, most are animals.

You need to check the place out, I’m serious. If you are looking for somewhere secluded with a smattering of medieval villages that pretty much consist of two cafes, a bar and a barber then this is your place.

It’s 5hrs by car, and a lifetime away from the UK.

The Auvergne is a great place to visit, and to explore. Wandered up the Plomb du Cantal and other peaks, and its not hard to find a route away from the scars of man. A meadow I sat in there was startlingly alive, full of insects, flowers, birds; something we have sadly, largely lost in the UK. By the way, there was an epic looking DH run from the summit to the NW along a ridge avoiding the obvious winter ski trails, a couple of lads on it were absolutely flying.

To the southwest, the Causses de Quercy, and the valleys of the Lot and the Cele, are a limestone plateau that contains an enormous amount of ancient history. Quieter and less well-known than the Auvergne, the villages are even older. I've wandered there for many hours without seeing a soul, and the villages are well spread. The mountain biking is also excellent, form an XC perspective at least! The language is as indecipherable to Parisiens as thick Glaswegian is to Londoners, for it contains a large smattering of the older Occitan. Another of those "old" feeling parts of the world.

Can’t see myself seeking wilderness in Denmark, to be honest 🙂

I guess more sparse a resource is, the tighter it tends to be regulated. Up around here solitude is ample, but closer to Central Europe it tends to become a luxury, and therefore not available to the masses.

Bis of Croatia are pretty wild still.

Mate of mine travelled through the Balkans down to Greece and then back up to Germany via Serbia and Romania. He said there were great expanses of nothingness, awesome untouched (by tourism at least) mountains.

Have been to bits of northern Spain just over the pyrenees that felt like being in a wild west movie.

Saw this on my feed and thought this to be a good place to share. Drones coming into their own as the bird’s-eye footage shows...

Watching musk ox in Dovrefjell felt fairly wild. Mind we still had 3g connection and I got an email to tell us our return ferry was cancelled whilst sat in the tent watching so perhaps not that wild after all.

if you want wilderness, get thee to those places with the losest population density.

I agree to some extent. I’ve recently moved to Shropshire / Welsh Borders. You can go for an all day walk and not see another human, an OS map will show a path but no path will exist.

But everywhere is bloody farmland or at least moorland with dirty great big fences on it.

Would some parts of the Pyrenees still be wilderness ?

True wilderness is something very special. I thinks it’s very difficult to describe but once you are in it you almost feel privileged to be there. I have only experienced this once in Canada.

I'm not so much interested in the technical definition of wilderness - more the ability to pretend that I'm somewhere primeval. So for example a few hundred acres of richly bio-diverse could have more to offer than a few hundred square miles of sheep-ravaged moor.

The likes of Glen Affric would give that experience - there are large sections of natural forest that are free from human intervention (at a local scale at least).  Some of the Western Isles might qualify, though there's the pernicious effect of sheep grazing to deal with, even on many of the unpopulated ones. Some of the remote mountain ranges - crossing the Moine Mhor for instance - or deep in a Cuillin corrie.

Only my first example would truly count as bio-diverse though. Wilderness in the UK mostly exists where nothing can be grown.