[Closed] Europe...

the votes are protests at an open door immigration policies changing communities.

It would be foolish to believe that all anti-EU sentiments are based purely on opposition to the EU's open door policy.

[i]The French people "no longer want to be ruled from outside, to have to submit to laws they did not vote for or to obey (EU officials) who are not subject to the legitimacy of universal suffrage," Le Pen said.[/i]

That's what the leader of the FN had to say after the results were announced. Under no circumstances would I vote for the racists/fascists which are the FN, but I find it completely impossible to disagree with that comment.

The far-right have tapped into genuine grievances which many who purport to be left-wing choose to ignore. The consequences aren't entirely surprising.

ninfan - Member

Care to clarify ?

Because like it or not - thats a huge proportion of the reason UKIP romped home

its perfectly possible for 'benefits' (etc) not to be the 'primary' reason people initially come to the UK, but for them to still be a real issue that is open to either abuse or legal but unintended and unforeseen outcomes - and that that weakens faith in the system as a whole.

Ah, so you are pushing the Daily Mail line that immigrants come to the UK to exploit our benefits, social housing, and NHS, after all. Jolly good - I thought you were attempting to deny it.

+1 IanW

Are you saying they don't then Ernie?
I would if I were in their shoes and you can't blame them if they do.

The overwhelming reason immigrants come to the UK is for a better life.

I don't think Albania has any motorways, at least not many compared to the UK, do think it would be reasonable for the Daily Mail to have headlines claiming that "The Albanians Are Coming Here To Use Our Motorways" ?

I thought people came to the UK as it was much easier to get a job due to the "rightwing" employment laws.

Using our motorways wouldn't have the economic impact that using our benefit system has. So no not really.

But just think of the consequences of them using our overloaded motorways. The M25 is bad enough without Albanians coming over here and clogging it up even further.

[i]Bear in mind that, not being old enough to remember our last coalition government (ie. WW2) this is my first experience of coalition government too. I don't pretending to understand it any better than the next person.[/i]

There was a Lib-Lab Pact in 1977. ISTR the Libs got screwed, other interpretations are available. I was a bit busy doing other things then.

I think history may be repeating.

That made me laugh out loud Ernie 🙂

the votes are protests at an open door immigration policies changing communities.

Look at how shit UKIP do in London

Look at how shit UKIP do in London

UKIP came third in the London Euro election (less than half the votes that Labour got)

Makes me proud to be an immigrant Londoner.

They get most votes where communities have not changed or not change that much.

Hmm, is that true?

UKIP got a slightly higher but similar proportion of votes in the South East (excluding London) than for example the North East or Wales

They get most votes where communities have not changed or not change that much.
Look at how shit UKIP do in London

Much easier to get people to fear something when they have no real experience of it. Recent Conservative policy has been all about drumming in fear of others and an every man for himself attitude. Unfortunately for them they've over done it and it's bitten them.

Look at how shit UKIP do in London

Might not UKIP argue that as being part of their case though i.e. due to the makeup of the London population these days - turkeys not voting for Christmas etc.?

Look at how shit UKIP do in London

Another symptom of the disconnect between London and the rest of the UK?

London is completely different from the rest of the UK. Socially, culturally and economically.

Might not UKIP argue that as being part of their case though i.e. due to the makeup of the London population these days - turkeys not voting for Christmas etc.?

London is still majority British, and by a fairly clear margin.

Despite all the excitement, it is worth pointing out that only around 1 in 10 people in the UK voted for UKIP. So it's a big leap to say they represent the mood in the country as a whole.

London is still majority British, and by a fairly clear margin.

I'm sure it is, but a lot of its population have migrated to London (including me) or their families had previously migrated to London - but are still British.

bikebouy - Member
Good results all round for the believers in Democracy

33.8% turnout is good for democracy? Suggests to me that the majority of people still don't agree with anything any party says enough to go out and vote.

66% of those eligible to vote not doing so is anything but good.

I'm sure it is, but a lot of its population have migrated to London (including me) or their families had previously migrated to London - but are still British.

I thought people came to the UK as it was much easier to get a job due to the "rightwing" employment laws.

And we have a winner.

The problem is here, not there.

The funniest thing in all this is that there are more immigrants arriving in the UK from countries outside the EU than from within.

UKIP want out because it affects business interests.

Disaffected tories vote for them because they think this country is still great and don't want those pesky "socialists" from the EU ruling over them/and or xenophobic

Working class vote for them because of the "darkies" down the road in their own communities, even though they aren't from the EU and have been entering the country since the 50's before the EU, but since UKIP have attracted candidates with racist views, better chance of them doing something than the BNP, or

Don't want Romanians and the like in their corner of the country taking british jobs for british workers, although the work the foreigners are doing they wouldn't do themselves,

Also vote for nigel because "he's the kind of privately educated ex-banker you can have a pint and a laugh with down the pub". 🙄

If ever there was a reason to remove the vote from stupid people, after all, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

The tories only want free trade and none of that EU other stuff, but to prevent UKIP from making further gains will lurch further to the right, thus guaranteeing UKIP policy on the EU.

And all this politics of hysteria achieved on low voter turn-out.

Its not really a surprise during difficult economic times that extreme left and right wing parties come to the fore.

Look at how shit UKIP do in London

Another symptom of the disconnect between London and the rest of the UK?

London is completely different from the rest of the UK. Socially, culturally and economically.

How true. Perhaps it's time to consider calling for a referendum for independence. After all, London's 7 million inhabitants would make having an independent state perfectly viable.

UKIP want out because it affects business interests.

UKIP is just a vanity project for Farage, he doesn't really care if the UK is in the EU or not. All he wants is fame and fortune, and he has hit on the ideal way to sell a simplistic lie to morons.

You will find very few businesses that want out of the EU, even the CBI which frequently rolls out ridiculous right wing ideology, is fully supportive of Britain being in the EU, with quotes like....

The benefits to the UK of the EU single market far outweigh the costs and it remains fundamental to future growth and jobs.

We need an EU that is more open and outward looking and must protect UK influence as the Eurozone integrates.

A growing EU is in the UK’s national interest so we must build alliances with other member states to get the reforms we need.

even the CBI which frequently rolls out ridiculous right wing ideology, is fully supportive of Britain being in the EU, with quotes like....

Oh I wonder why.

Perhaps they are only committed to [i]"ridiculous right wing ideology"[/i] on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays ?

Low turnout...anyone that votes is in the minority. If you win 30% of a 30% turnout...big deal.

Woowhooo! What a result! I like! 😆

I will keep on voting UKIP from now on until we are out of EU. 😆

My prediction is this in GE: Hang Parliament with UKIP as King/Queen maker for now but let's hope UKIP will get enough seats in future elections to get us out totally without being in a coalition govt.

London area with ethnic diversity will vote Labour more instead of Tories and Tories will lose out more of their because they keep banging on the bogeyman UKIP. Interestingly you will see Labour being the party of big cities in future. 😆

Other areas with strong working class background will see an increase in UKIP due to Labour voters defection. Some die hard will still be there but it will be Labour against UKIP then.

Lib Dem will be condemned to history in the next general election and most of their supporters will either vote Green or join Labour.

Tories will loose grounds in many areas to UKIP making them less likely to challenge Labour without forming coalition with UKIP.

In summary for the predicted result for next GE:

[u]Labour[/u] will sneak in (The Eds are creepy lot) from the backdoor to win the next GE but with no majority.

[u]Tories [/u]will loose even more seats than previous GE.

[u]UKIP[/u] will gains all the seats from Tories and Labour from Northern regions, essentially making them on par with Tories in seat numbers.

[u]Lib Dem[/u] ... consigned to history once and for all.

Others small parties will join force with UKIP to some extend.

I win my bet so where are my pints? Curry? Fish & Chips?

Oh ya ... Tories will eat their words and may need to form a coalition govt with UKIP or worst case scenario UKIP will ask them instead.

p/s: The current political shites need to be turn upside down by rebooting the system. Too many zombie maggots infestation and too many jobworth in the govt.

A fascinating analysis chewkw, are you a UKIP candidate ? I reckon you've definitely got what it takes.

And the local elections?

Loving the massive swing to UKIP, and their huge amassing of councils under their control.

Labour must be well cheesed off. You wouldn't have thought they "won" the English council elections.

LibDem finished? Got 2.5 times as many seats as UKIP on councils. Got infinity times as many councils.

My prediction... next general election will be very different to the euro vote.

chewkw - Member

p/s: The current political shites need to be turn upside down by rebooting the system. Too many zombie maggots infestation and too many jobworth in the govt.

How is farage any different?

He likes to have a pint and a fag

You will find very few businesses that want out of the EU, even the CBI which frequently rolls out ridiculous right wing ideology, is fully supportive of Britain being in the EU, with quotes like....

Well I'm sure they want to be in the EU from a purely business point of view. The EU however is more than that.

LibDem finished? Got 2.5 times as many seats as UKIP on councils. Got infinity times as many councils.

They got less support than UKIP, 13% to UKIP's 17%. The difference in seats reflects the fact that LibDem votes tend to be concentrated in small pockets.

"Got infinity times as many councils" mean that they won two councils, or to say it more in keeping with your style, they got two more than nothing.

In Thursday's local elections the LibDems received less than half the votes they had received in the same local elections five years previously, I'm not sure any major party has ever experienced such a disastrous turn of fortunes in such as short time.

In Thursday's European elections the LibDems came fifth, beaten even by the Green Party, and they got one seat, or to say it more in keeping with your style, the Greens won three times more seats than the LibDems.

None of this was unexpected or represents a temporary blip - it's been a reoccurring theme for the last four years and all the signs are that next year's general election will be a disaster for the LibDems.

Are they finished ? I doubt it, they will plod along as a small ineffective party indefinitely imo. It would take a massive shakeup for them to have any chance of recovering, if they ever do.

ernie_lynch - Member

A fascinating analysis chewkw, are you a UKIP candidate ? I reckon you've definitely got what it takes.

No. Never unless I am the Dear Leader. 😆

Lifer - Member
How is farage any different?

Well, firstly, his spins are less sophisticated then those from Tories, Labour and Lib Dem. Secondly, it's not because Farage is that different from the rest but the rest are simply worst. Imagine Eds (one of them) being the next PM and Cameron continues with his looks (his looks when he is serious really doesn't work ... he is spineless). Oh ya, I hear that the upcoming stars of Labour or Tories with two of their Obama lookalike candidates have been mentioned ... Cummon! Cummon! They might have the looks but like wet fish they are too. 😆

Well you need to join before you can become leader. You ought to get onto their case.

Statistics tell us many things!

Daily Mail estimated daily print reader figures: 4,215,000 (Source:

)

UKIP Votes in 2014 Euro Election: 4,352,051 (Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/vote2014/eu-uk-results )

😀

ernie_lynch - Member

Well you need to join before you can become leader. You ought to get onto their case.

I rather be the spectator to the zombie maggot world then join the hassle. 😆

ninfan - Member

Statistics tell us many things!

True, true ... they do. I think I can conclude that there is statistical significant with my fart creating tremors in other part of the world. 😆

it's not because Farage is that different from the rest but the rest are simply worst.

No, he isn't any different from the others, but he does do a good line in pretending to be a normal bloke (with the booze-and-fags act) unlike the professional politicians leading the other three parties.

ratherbeintobago - Member
No, he isn't any different from the others, but he does do a good line in pretending to be a normal bloke (with the booze-and-fags act) unlike the professional politicians leading the other three parties.

True, true, but trying to be normal I guess is not that hard. The problem with the other blokes is that they are just trying too hard to be Obama like. [u]Make no mistake[/u]! (Quote from a President that I can hear in many of the Labour blokes.) 😆

London is a special case in terms of voting. A significant proportion if those working in London commute in from outside. Those constituencies tend to vote Tory. Londons residents are disproportionality weighted by those living in social housing etc and are traditional Labour supporters. When you look at Greater London (so inc suburbs) its much more balanced Laboir/Tory.

On the Front Nationale Marine Le Pen has done a huge amount to move the party more towards the centre and away from some of the clearly racist tones that existed under her father. That is why they are much more electable now. They are not as extreme right as their opponents would like to classify them, in Framce you have the socialists on the left and the ump who are basically a centrist party. So you can be to the right of the ump but not extremist.

(@ernie I made that point about the us last night as I dont believe the conclusion from this election is to do with left or right but a tidal wave of anti-EU sentiment, people are voting for the eurosceptic parties whether they are right/centre or left)

As for those here noting that net migration is reasonably balanced you are missing the point that many British born people retire abroad that makes the figures for immigrants look less dramatic but hides the issue which is troubling many voters.

Farages "normal bloke" thing is just a small part of the appeal. The traditional parties are trying to clarify UKIPs popularity as being a result of disenchantment with established politics but that's because they don't want to admit that on Europe / immigration they are wrong and UKIP are right as far as the electorate goes.

As for the "only 1 in 10" people voted for UKIP, well we have a system that says only people that actually vote get a say, you have no voice if you stay at home. UKIP got 30% of the votes and more than any other party and that is significant.

What exactly is so bad about the EU? For me it means that I can easily work in another country, stronger environental protection, social and employment laws. It may be a bit of a gravy train but no worse than the city of London investing our pensions. At least the EU seems to want to make things better with a vision for the future rather than the anti politics nature of the UK. I would rather be like Sweden than The USA.

What exactly is so bad about the EU?

They want to straighten our bananas and ban eccles cakes, and errr some other stuff I read in the sun.

GEDA - Member

What exactly is so bad about the EU?

The question is equally applicable to 'What exactly is so good about [u]not [/u]in EU?

The answer is simple bureaucratic jobworth. There reach a point where bureaucracy is simply overbearing to the point of believing in self hype. A nation can function perfectly without complicating matters by becoming a superstate.

😈

stronger environental protection, social and employment laws

Stronger than what ?

Stronger than a single country.

A couple of simple, every-day things the EU has done are:

Reduced the costs of roaming on mobiles
Tightened rules on misleading airline ads

A couple of simple, every-day things the EU has done are:

Reduced the costs of roaming on mobiles
Tightened rules on misleading airline ads

All that on a budget of only E130 billion!

Stronger than a single country.

A single country such as the UK is perfectly capable of passing laws concerning "environmental protection, social and employment laws".

It doesn't require 28 countries to get together to pass such laws.

Any which require international cooperation can and are agreed upon without the need to a member of the EU.

Love this thread. Keep on winding up the usual liberal left posters on here, guys. Farage for PM anyone? 🙂

28 countries are more likely to do something together than each doing it alone in many cases.

Edit: double post!

28 countries are mire likely to do something together than each doing it alone in many cases.

Well when you force countries to implement laws that they wouldn't otherwise pass on their own, then yes, of course.

But what is the justification of forcing countries to implement laws which they otherwise wouldn't pass?

What's wrong with being self-governing ?

Doesnt necessarily apply to EU law. How about the Montreal Protocol?

Except that this thread is about the EU and what is being discussed is the perceived advantages of EU membership.

I've already pointed out that laws which require international cooperation can and are agreed upon without the need to a member of the EU.

ernie_lynch - Member

Any which require international cooperation can and are agreed upon without the need to a member of the EU.

Posted 23 minutes ago

Silly me how dare I post anything on your thread I do apologise.

Except that this thread is about the EU and what is being discussed is the perceived advantages of EU membership.

The thread is about Europe, and the apparent rise of xenophobia and extremism.

Silly me how dare I post anything on your thread I do apologise.

Eh, wtf you talking about ?

Would the Montreal Protocol have been a success without the EU would all the member states have signed up? Your assertion that everything could be agreed by individual countries is simply false. Would a fisheries policy have been agreed that would have avoided a huge collapse in fish stocks? For all its faults the EU does have its uses.

Your assertion that everything could be agreed by individual countries is simply false.

So only the 28 countries which are EU members can agree about anything ? All the other countries in the world presumably can't ?

So only the 28 countries which are EU members can agree about anything ? All the other countries in the world presumably can't ?

You big hitting argumenteers have a name for this type of thing dont you.
You clearly dont want to read what I've written or respond to any of the points I've raised so why do you keep banging the same drum.

I have a different opinion to yours. But I can see from what's already been moderated that you're not in the mood to tolerate that. And since I'm unlikely to agree with you let's leave it there 🙂

I can tolerate discussion. You dont seem able to respond to the points I've raised. I gave two examples of where having 28 countries speaking as 1 got something done which may not have happened without the EU.
Its pointless having a thread if the discussion and views are fixed from the start. But I suppose since the sad demise of TJ you are the king of pointless discussion.

Forgive me if I avoid this pointless discussion.

I get the impression that our government does not give a monkeys about environmental protection (ie fracking) or supporting the man on the streets employment (privatising so they don't have to pay a living pension and happily watching tax payers money end up offshore) so i am glad to balance this we have europe.

But what is the justification of forcing countries to implement laws which they otherwise wouldn't pass?

You just said countries were capable of passing their own laws, but this statement contradicts this.

The justification is the greater good, of course. The EU govt is further removed from national party politics so can be braver on things like the environment. Plus because it's EU wide the member states can't undercut each other in business with softer environmental legislation that costs business less.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
I gave two examples of where having 28 countries speaking as 1 got something done which may not have happened without the EU.

They can speak as 1 without EU so long as they really understand each others. At the moment they understand each other because there are handouts.

1. Montreal protocol. As if this protocol is going to solve the dying planet.

The debate is still on going regarding ozone depletion. Are we still in the process of coming out ice age? If so then we are slowly dying so what's the problem with that?

Well, the bad boys/girls seem to be from industrialise nations. Ya, stop preaching it to 3rd world countries they are the cause. Also if individual nation do their own bits with common sense then we can do so without EU. EU is just there to set standard that will gradually impose on nations outside of EU. Go away!

2. Fishery stock - you don't need EU to prevent fish stocks depletion but rather go around fishing states to negotiate for an understanding. Yes, over fishing is a problem but EU do not seem to understand that throwing dead fish back to the sea would not increase fish stock. Damn zombie maggot bureaucrats.

🙄

Chewkw
1. the Montreal Protocol has worked very well and the idea that the planet is dying is laughable.

2. Well of course anything can be done in theory but do you know of any good examples in practise? As fot throwing back by catch well it does make the fishermen not take the piss with their quotas.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Chewkw
1. the Montreal Protocol has worked very well and the idea that the planet is dying is laughable.

Like I say you don't need EU if the individual nations are sincere to decide for their own.

I doubt you will live long enough to see its demise put it this way, so yes it's laughable in that sense. Check out the scientific arguments anyway regarding dying planets.

2. Well of course anything can be done in theory but do you know of any good examples in practise? As fot throwing back by catch well it does make the fishermen not take the piss with their quotas.

Net size.
Fish sanctuary - none fishing zones. (Torpedo the ship U-boat style if the breach the zones - just saying like)
Drift net length limitation.
Drastically reduce fishing time during spawning seasons.
Limit large scale commercial fishing.
Fish stock breeding to be released back to the ocean.
Gun boat policy - otherwise it's a toothless tiger if it is not enforceable.
etc.

🙄

Sorry half of that makes no sense and the other half is incomprehensible.

Think the Media are trying very hard to blank out the negatives throughout Europe
But has been the making of very interesting Politics

I get the impression that our government does not give a monkeys about environmental protection (ie fracking) or supporting the man on the streets employment (privatising so they don't have to pay a living pension and happily watching tax payers money end up offshore) so i am glad to balance this we have europe.

That's why the tories only want free trade and nothing else. This country is so messed up with regards to looking after its own people that you have rely on the EU to be the responsible parent. And only 40,000 employed in EU operations, which is 60,000 less than HMRC employ, and still crap at tax collecting.

I hope that the EU give Cameron nothing in the "negotiations" he is seeking, and the in out referendum goes ahead, then we'll see who has the bottle to vote out, and hopefully it will be an end to what has been a tory party problem played out to the detriment of the nation.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Sorry half of that makes no sense and the other half is incomprehensible.

The ideas are there so it's up to EU to decide their own faith. I know I am not here to convince but rather to vote out of EU so incomprehensible or not does not bother me a single bit.

The beast in EU must be slayed. 😈

I get the impression that our government does not give a monkeys about environmental protection (ie fracking) or supporting the man on the streets employment (privatising so they don't have to pay a living pension and happily watching tax payers money end up offshore) so i am glad to balance this we have europe.

It's the government that [i]we[/i] elect. What you appear to be suggesting is that the EU needs to protect us from own government. Or to be more precise, from UK governments which you don't support.

They might well not give a monkeys about environmental protection or supporting the man on the street, but the solution is to elect governments that do, not to circumvent that and have the EU protect us from our own election results.

There is no need to ride roughshod over the democratic wishes of the British electorate just because you failed to win the political argument.

A strategy which clearly appeals to the defeatist soft-left.

.

"But what is the justification of forcing countries to implement laws which they otherwise wouldn't pass?"

You just said countries were capable of passing their own laws, but this statement contradicts this.

There is no contradiction at all. We can and do pass laws. I'm asking what is the justification of forcing countries to implement laws which they otherwise wouldn't pass? Don't you believe in self-government ?

The UK can, just like most other countries in the world, be a self-governing country which engages in international cooperation and obligations, there is no need to be in the EU to do that.

Big hitters seem to be present and correct. . . . . . . Carry on.

The UK can, just like most other countries in the world, be a self-governing country which engages in international cooperation and obligations, there is no need to be in the EU to do that.

Well wrapped up in one sentence. Nice one ernie 😉

I would say the WTO is much more damaging than the EU but nobody talks about that. Mass immigration is hard to deal with as it is quite easy these days to get to any country in the world and what realistic policies have any of the right wing parties got to solve this? Bugger all as far as I can tell.

I would see myself as neither left of right wing but a realist and the reality is that we are rich and other countries are dirt poor and at war and due to the Geneva convention we are bound to offer asylum. Isn't the real question how we make a functioning strong society where people are empowered to make the most of their lives from what ever background and be pround of our cultures principles such satire which from Georgian cartoons to life of brian and Spitting image is one of our greatest and most under threat parts of our culture.

[img] [/img]

I would say that you can tell our political system does not reflect public opinion or empower or inspire the british people if you look at how low voter turnout is and the declining membership of political parties.

Don't you believe in self-government ?

Its funny how those who support the UK union oppose the EU one and the ones who oppose the UK union support the EU one = generally anyway.

Are you anti democratic ans soft left as well then * 😈

* its a fair criticism you make of the left there

Junkyard - lazarus
Its funny how those who support the UK union oppose the EU one and the ones who oppose the UK union support the EU one = generally anyway.

I don't. Anything that supports the creation of zombie maggot bureaucrats as in the notion of "big is beautiful" gets a thumb down from me.

Scotland can go their own way if they wish. 🙄

Fffrrreeeddoommmm! 😆

I'm asking what is the justification of forcing countries to implement laws which they otherwise wouldn't pass? Don't you believe in self-government

I gave you two examples of justification.

As for self government - two issues here:

1) our political/democratic system is buggered and
2) the electorate aren't very bright and are easily led by people with money.

So I'm not sure about self government tbh. It's a bit like having primary school kids hire and fire teachers.

I am fully supportive of Scotland's right to self-government (as I am of England's btw) I am also fully supportive of Scotland's right secede from the Union, if it so wishes - I respect the right of self-determination.

That doesn't however translate into recognizing that a good case for Scotland's secession has been made - it hasn't imo.

2) the electorate aren't very bright and are easily led by people with money.

So I'm not sure about self government tbh. It's a bit like having primary school kids hire and fire teachers.

Well I asked you if you believed in self-government and you have given me a straight answer, ie, no, you don't.

It's so refreshing when people respond to direct questions with direct answers 🙂