[Closed] Europe...

You see if the mainstream parties keep forcing on the masses agendas they don't like they get voted out. Simple. It's called Demoncracy. 🙄

Golden Dawn being elected in Greece. It's all pretty depressing, really.

Politics can stand in the face of economics for only so long......

....uncomfortable trends for modern historians though.

Good results all round for the believers in Democracy, bad results all round for those that still think they can force decisions on "the little people"

All good I say.

Well people have been bemoaning the centralisation of modern politics recently. Will more extremes on both wings be any more palatable?

Big gains for LW and RW populist parties with Eurocentric agendas.

Tony Blair, slippery weasel much loved around these parts definitely caused the end of the UK and possibly the EU who knows, he's a ****.

bencooper - Member
Golden Dawn being elected in Greece. It's all pretty depressing, really.

That place does not need economy downturn to trigger right wing party surging in popularity because they are already fed up with boat people arriving in hundred if not thousands from North African. The govt is not doing much to prevent boat people because they want hand outs from EU so the people decide to vote them out. 😯

It's bad enough having [s]Judy Finnigan[/s] Maire Le Pen all across the FT but Farrage across our broadsheets tomorrow as well......

Lib dems could come out of this with no MEP's 😯

I saw one result announced , I was absolutely stunned that the BNP got more than 100 votes. How the **** did they manage to find 18000 ****wits to vote for them.
This country and apparently most of Europe had some serious problems.
Fascism is hatred. Hatred is a circle. Stop it now.

It's all a bit 1930s isn't it ? ......an economic crises with global reach, the rise of the right and nationalism in Europe, while the US swings to the left.

That's the scary bit Ernie IME. The Euro elite need to wake up, respond quickly and adapt rapidly. More likely they will try to dismiss..... 🙁

Looks like we might elect one of them but it's still looking a lot less bawbag north of the border.

I'm watching it on BBC and i'm starting to wonder what sort of people choose to vote BNP and UKIP voluntarily, i sincerely hope it's just a blip with regard to disillusionment within Europe rather than a rise of fascism but even so there are other ways of expressing your distrust with the current status.

I just hope that UKIP do not get a seat in scotland but they've had blanket press coverage in the past few weeks and folk just may have been dumb enough to vote for them.

I am always confident/hopeful that (a majority of) your countrymen remain a canny bunch NW 😉

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The BNP aren't doing well, most of their support from the last EU election has gone. And I don't think there's much doubt that when people vote UKIP in EU elections they are knowingly voting against the EU.

There has been increased support for parties hostile to the EU across Europe. And in the case of Slovakia only 13% bothered voting ffs. This appears to have been a bad election for those who support the EU.

Conservatives offer referendum WHY! Haven't we just voted on Europe.

Judy Finnagan again!

Keep bashing UKIP for another year then see how far the main parties will do in the next election. 😈

The small people don't like your big idea in EU ... go away! 😆

Now that [i]is[/i] a comb over!

UKIP won a seat in Scotland. Thanks a lot, BBC.

bencooper - Member

UKIP won a seat in Scotland. Thanks a lot, BBC.

Ya, but Scotland is going to be independent anyway so no much change really.

Politicians from the governing and opposition parties have not been listening to the voters, this is the result. Unless something changes this will only intensify.

@ernie - the US has the right and the further right

Good results all round for the believers in Democracy

Except the one mainstream UK party that supports a fair electoral system has been wiped out, and Twitter is full of Labour activists crowing about it.

There has been increased support for parties hostile to the EU across Europe. And in the case of Slovakia only 13% bothered voting ffs. This appears to have been a bad election for those who support the EU.

I think most people are pro free European trade if they think about it, but there's huge dissatisfaction with the grand European project outside the pan-EU political elite.

Voter turnout in Scotland was 33.5%, if i had my way (just as well i don't) i'd personally go round to every single one of the 66.5% of the non voters and say to them to gtf out, if they cannot be bothered to vote (or at least spoil/mark their papers otherwise) then they have no right to live in Scotland.

It's time to club together with a few mates and buy our own island and declare ourselves independent of the UK.

Anyone in?, there is an island just off Carrick Bay in Kirkcudbrightshire that i think we could take at low tide, we'd have to kick the sheep off first but i doubt that'd be a problem. 😉

@ernie - the US has the right and the further right

I'm not entirely sure what that's suppose to mean but at the start of the global crises/credit crunch the US had a right-wing Republican president, they replaced him with a more left-wing president, ie, they swung to the left.

In contrast at the start of the global crises/credit crunch the UK had a right-wing Labour government, we replaced that with an even more right-wing conservative government, ie, we swung to the right.

Today we have seen a further swing to the right with UKIP topping the euro polls. A simular situation has occurred across Europe.

If you were attempting to suggest that my comment concerning "the rise of the right and nationalism in Europe, while the US swings to the left" was false, then I'm afraid that reality suggests otherwise.

Except the one mainstream UK party that supports a fair electoral system has been wiped out, and Twitter is full of Labour activists crowing about it.

I think by far the most satisfying aspect of an otherwise rather gloomy evening has been the knowledge that the LibDems have been hammered. I truly hope they never recover from this.

I suggest the main stream parties keep banging on the good in EU as part of their general election campaign strategy. Be persistent by telling the voters they are wrong. 😆

I think by far the most satisfying aspect of an otherwise rather gloomy evening has been the knowledge that the LibDems have been hammered. I truly hope they never recover from this.

On the contrary, it's very sad. But it's not clear whether it's because they are the only party with a strongly pro-EU agenda at a time of increasing euroscepticism, or whether it's a result of the coalition (I think the British public don't necessarily understand coalition politics as it's not something we've been used to; if you think what we've got is bad, imagine what a majority Tory government would be like...)

I think the British public don't necessarily understand coalition politics ...

That's rather arrogant. Are you a Liberal Democrat ?

.

....imagine what a majority Tory government would be like

I don't need to, because there was zero possibility of that, the Tories didn't win the general election - remember ?

The only reason they were able to form an effective government was because the LibDems helped them. There was never a possibility of the Tories forming a majority government.

Your memory might be poor but the electorate, which you so contemptuously dismiss as 'not understanding', obviously have a better memory. And that's why the LibDems are now getting hammered at every election.

Yay more UKIP MEP's to claim every expense possible and not turn up to anythings and vote against the EU regardless of the actual issue being voted on...

Not to mention probably making the odd racist/sexist slurr in public now and again.

/sarcasm

becoming increasingly sceptical and populist. Understandable but uncomfortable trends IMO.

UKIP, FNP, Syriza,

How will the mainstream parties react?

As the winner of a national election UKIP are a mainstream party.

Yay more UKIP MEP's to claim every expense possible and not turn up to anythings and vote against the EU regardless of the actual issue being voted on...

An anti EU party voting against more EU regulations. Who'd ha ve thought it?

An anti EU party voting against more EU regulations. Who'd ha ve thought it?

that's not what he said though, they vote against things even when it's not about EU regulation in a negative way or just fail to get involved. Two examples:

1, EU motion to clamp down on the ivory trade
2, Despite crowing about the state of the UK fishing industry, Farage turned up to only 1 or 2 of 40+ meetings of the European Fisheries committee of which he was a member

What UKIP actually do is claim expenses paid by UK taxpayers and don't even represent those people according to UKIP's own agenda. It's unsurprising that people don't read beyond the headlines and still vote for the people who not only drain money from the UK, but do it without any positive benefit for the UK.

So the question is, what will UKIP in the UK, the FN in France etc actually do to return power to their countries if they abstain from the process?

If it takes a Farage wedge to ease us out. So be it.

We need high quality controlled immigration, open borders doesnt work for us.

We need high quality controlled immigration, open borders doesnt work for us.

Explain. With facts rather than repeated DM-style bluster please. Extra points if you're able to show how the same open borders causes Germany the same problems.

I think the British public don't necessarily understand coalition politics

Explain to me how this is arrogant for reasons other than you saying so. It strikes me that there's a lot of moaning from the left about broken promises (and going into coalition in the first place) and from the right about the Lib Dems being obstructive, which suggests there's a lack of understanding about the need for compromise in coalition.

You're right that the Tories didn't win the election outright but with no Lib Dem vote I suspect that's what would have happened.

EWe need high quality controlled immigration, open borders doesnt work for us.

How would that work, then?

How would that work, then?

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An anti EU party voting against more EU regulations. Who'd ha ve thought it?

Atlaz already explained my point. UKIP have the worst attendance record of all MEPs in the entire EU then even if they do turn up they will vote against anything which gives more powers to the EU regardless of the circumstances, as in the ivory example given.

They really are not going to anything to make any changes happen. Peoe just seem to think that if you want the country to leave the EU then you had to vote for UKIP and there was no other option....

Explain to me how this is arrogant .....

If you can't see how suggesting that the "British public don't necessarily understand coalition politics" but that you on the other do, is rather arrogant, then I'm afraid I won't be able to explain it to you.

Perhaps you like to explain to me how it [i]isn't[/i] arrogant ?

You're right that the Tories didn't win the election outright but with no Lib Dem vote I suspect that's what would have happened.

With no LibDem vote Labour's share would have increased. There isn't much evidence that most previous LibDem voters would have voted Tory as a second choice. In fact the evidence suggests the opposite, ie, that most LibDem voters have a specific dislike of Tories.

Which explains to a great extent why ever since the LibDems jumped into bed with the Tories they have been hammered in the polls.

With no LibDem vote Labour's share would have increased. There isn't much evidence that most previous LibDem voters would have voted Tory as a second choice.

Even with people tactically voting LD?

I agree with you that a Lib-Lab coalition would have been a much more natural fit, but there were two fairly major problems there (one being Gordon Brown, and the other being that Lab didn't have enough MPs to make it work).

the "British public don't necessarily understand coalition politics" but that you on the other do, is rather arrogant,

Bear in mind that, not being old enough to remember our last coalition government (ie. WW2) this is my first experience of coalition government too. I don't pretending to understand it any better than the next person.

UKIP have the worst attendance record of all MEPs in the entire EU

That sounds awful......how did they manage to come first in the European elections last Thursday ?

And how did the party who are most enthusiastic about the EU manage to come fifth, when on the same day they got twice as many votes in the local English elections ?

That sounds awful......how did they manage to come first in the European elections last Thursday ?

Protest voting? It will be interesting to see what happens in the general election next year...

What were they protesting about ? Not the EU surely ?

Because most people don't look past the headlines and decide they don't like immigrants or the EU so it must mean they have to vote UKIP rather than looking into the fact they won't actually do anything...

IE the green party manifesto includes an in-out referendum but nobody noticed that because they aren't in the news every other day for saying racist comments etc

(I did not vote green or UKIP though)

A protest vote that involves voting for a banker called Nigel.
That really showed it to The Man.

A protest vote that involves voting for a banker called Nigel.
That really showed it to The Man.

Aye.

Democracy is ruined by the fact so many people are stupid...(and nige knows this very well and used it for his gain)

most people don't look past the headlines and decide they don't like immigrants or the EU

If the reason UKIP received the highest amount of votes last Thursday in the Euro elections was something as simple as people not liking immigrants then the BNP would have scored huge electoral successes for many years.

Racism against immigrants has never been popular in the UK and any party expressing those views have suffered electorally.

If immigration was an issue this Euro election then it was with regards to the EU's open door policy, not animosity towards immigrants.

That is why I said or the EU...

I'm not trying to imply all people who voted UKIP are racist. Just seems everyone has default voted for UKIP as they don't want to stay in the EU, other parties offer this referendum whilst also actually having other policies.

Chukka Umunna already on BBC this morning saying this was not a vote about Europe...

So say the UK imposes a closed door policy, how does that work for the UK in future? Do all the immigrants already in the UK get kicked out as Farrage has said? Do all the UK expats in Europe (between 1 and 2 million of them) get told to bugger off back to Blighty?

Given the UK immigration system for work permits etc is already an overloaded mess, how will that handle the upsurge in requests? What about skilled labour like medical staff of whom the NHS employs a load be handled?

I'm not sure anyone who says "We need to limit immigration" has ever given much detail of how it would actually work,

I'm not sure anyone who says "We need to limit immigration" has ever given much detail of how it would actually work

Fantastic. We must have an open door policy and allow anyone who wants to come to the UK permission to do so, because anything else is too complicated !

EDIT : Actually it's not that simple, the open door policy only applies to EU nationals, would-be immigrants from other areas such as the West Indies, Africa, or Asia, can sod off.......we can apply complicated immigration processes to keep them out. If we want to.

So say the UK imposes a closed door policy, how does that work for the UK in future? Do all the immigrants already in the UK get kicked out as Farrage has said? Do all the UK expats in Europe (between 1 and 2 million of them) get told to bugger off back to Blighty?

It's the second question that's vaguely worrying me, I'd probably end up having to apply for Spanish nationality if only to avoid having to renew visas etc. on a regular basis.

So say the UK imposes a closed door policy,

Who says thats the inevitable outcome?

A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

it was with regards to the EU's open door policy, not animosity towards immigrants.

So they hate the fact they can come here not the fact they have come here?

A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

UKIP aim to get rid of the NHS so you don't need to worry about that as only the rich will be able to afford health care.

Give it 10 years when all the countries of Europe have fractured into little countries bickering with their exes. Mr Putin can then gently roll westwards at his leisure.
When mainland countries start talking about bloody foreigners they mean us. Not only a gypsy from some place we've never heard of.
Who are we going to moan too when our charming holiday homes in the Dordogne are burnt out or daubed with Rosbifs go home?

I'm not sure anyone who says "We need to limit immigration" has ever given much detail of how it would actually work,

There has been quite a bit of research into the pros and cons of "balanced" migration. Most of it can be found on the website balancedmigration.org

We already have balanced migration, it is just a load of scare stories that have allowed all the racists to voice their opinions.

Just to add... I hope all the people who voted UKIP are aware and happy with their plans for a flat rate 32% income tax. Will really help the help all the people who get the jobs the immigrants have been stealing 😉

A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

No one gets benefits on first arrival here not even brits returning home

If voting changed anything, they wouldn't let us do it

Mark Twain

A more realistic scenario is a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for benefits, social housing, NHS treatment etc.

I thought your political mentor Dan Hannan was opposed to benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment? As is UKIP, probably, no one quite knows for sure.

So why have a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for things which don't exist ?

It doesn't seem to make much sense 😕

Can those who like to theorise on these matter explain why they think
the euro vote was different to the local council vote was it down to the voting system and if so should we change ours and which would be better. Or was it down to a lack of influence real or otherwise in one of the votes? Or was it just down to the areas voting? It all seems a bit odd to me.

No one gets benefits on first arrival here

I don't believe anyone suggested they did

So why have a significant revision on the qualifying criteria/period for things which don't exist ?

Well, if they don't exist anymore, then that would certainly be a significant revision to the qualifying criteria wouldn't it?

Fantastic. We must have an open door policy and allow anyone who wants to come to the UK permission to do so, because anything else is too complicated !

Or perhaps because freedom of movement of people is one of the four fundamental pillars on which the EU is based?

Well, if they don't exist anymore, then that would certainly be a significant revision to the qualifying criteria wouldn't it?

Good answer.

So according to you and Dan Hannan no one should qualify for benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment. How exactly does that relate to your comment regarding immigration ?

Are you suggesting that would-be immigrants come to the UK for benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment ? Is that what Dan Hannan and the Daily Mail have been telling you ?

for those that still think they can force decisions on "the little people

So the electorate should make the decisions then? 10 minutes each morning flicking through a biased publication is enough information to decide on crucial policies is it?

Are you suggesting that would-be immigrants come to the UK for benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment ?

Nope, never happens, glad we're all agreed!

Can those who like to theorise on these matter explain why they thinkthe euro vote was different to the local council vote was it down to the voting system and if so should we change ours and which would be better.

Many folk hate the EU so they will do a protest vote as they think the parliament has no real power - PR does encourage a protest vote as your vote actually counts . I vote differently in EU elections than national ones for example.

As for local WTF has wanting to be out of the EU got to do with being a local councillor? Only die hard UKIPers will vote for them there I assume so you see their core vote - the protest votes

Its nothing more than educated guess//wild stab in the dark

Well I fell asleep listening to the votes coming in and now wake to find the UK's purple.

Interesting times, thankfully.

Nope, never happens, glad we're all agreed!

So why mention your very Daily Mail reference to immigrants and benefits, social housing, and NHS treatment then ?

Care to clarify ?

ernie_lynch - Member

Explain to me how this is arrogant .....

If you can't see how suggesting that the "British public don't necessarily understand coalition politics" but that you on the other do, is rather arrogant, then I'm afraid I won't be able to explain it to you.

Perhaps you like to explain to me how it isn't arrogant ?

i'd personally go round to every single one of the 66.5% of the non voters and say to them to gtf out, if they cannot be bothered to vote (or at least spoil/mark their papers otherwise) then they have no right to live in Scotland.

I don't think the people who have voted UKIP here or NF in France give a hoot about Europe, the votes are protests at an open door immigration policies changing communities.

Care to clarify ?

Because like it or not - thats a huge proportion of the reason UKIP romped home

its perfectly possible for 'benefits' (etc) not to be the 'primary' reason people initially come to the UK, but for them to still be a real issue that is open to either abuse or legal but unintended and unforeseen outcomes - and that that weakens faith in the system as a whole.

A good example would be Child benefit being payable for children resident in another country.

I like the EU. I like Europe. I love the UK but it seems to be now populated by people who want to blame everything on someone else and complain.