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I find it deeply sad that the institution most despised by government as a waste of money and cut to the bone during Austerity V1.0 is the one being tasked to save their arses.
Hmm.
Not sure they despise the NHS, rather their ideology prefers private healthcare. Let’s not forget as well the NHS has been neglected for decades by both Labour & Tory govs.
The govs ass has been saved by some incredible scientific endeavour & I, for one, will definitely NOT be letting them off the hook!
Edukator - anecdotally I’ve heard the French are quite vaccine suspicious as a general rule. Is this the case, and will this AZ pause make it worse in your opinion?
There have been a few quacks and non-quacks that over the years have made people cautious here. The "sang contaminé", "médiator" and combined kids' vaccine debates have erroded trust. There's no longer blind faith, people want transparency.
I think the strategy has been the right one. There were too many unanswered question to go on a few days ago. Answers have been provided and I for one have reinstated AZ as a vaccine I'd have tomorrow if offered. So I don't think it'll make the overall take up worse. Some people might hang on for one of the others though which won't change anything in the overall strategy as they can use all the AZ they can currently get their hands on.
It's interesting to follow how the various vaccines are perceived, the Johnson and Johnson is getting a lot of good press here but that may change once the kind of numbers have been vaccinated that compare with AZ.
I’d be shaking my fist at the TV
SOP in the Sandwich household. It's only the lack of access to firearms and ammunition that is preventing me going full armed rebellion and Falling Down!
I thought the efficacy of the J&J was lower than the others? Maybe because it is single dose?
As I understand it, the O/AZ was originally designed as single dose but they changed it to 2 for better results.
66% for J&J but I think there’s a few ways to make comparisons.
Is J&J even on the U.K. order list? I think our next vaccines will be Moderna in April & Novamax soon after.
Good article in the FT about the damage the EU's political manouvering over the AZ vaccine will do to take up in the 3rd world (as AZ is all they've got).
https://www.ft.com/content/434e4909-c71d-4fbf-9ecd-fbb5c3af0f78
Is J&J even on the U.K. order list?
30 million, the one that was "missed" by the Vaccine TF was Moderna, but we still got an order in eventually.
A couple of things about linking FT articles, Footflaps. They're behind a paywall and anyone outside the UK will give them the same credence as Fox News, dismissing the content as right-wing anglo-saxon, neo-liberal bollocks. Aimed at the FT, not you personally. I wouldn't expect you guys to take it seriously if I linked La Croix as a reliable impartial source.
What's wrong with the FT? Found to be the least partisan UK news source by independent research.
Just read the post, I think it's clear enough without repeating. Who did the "independant research", an anglo-saxon, neo-liberal?
To appreciate the FT you have to be a part of their mindset, you have to think the political, social and economic status quo is ace. You have turn a blind eye to the divisions in society and the misery they create for so many.
News papers write for their owners and audience. If you aren't an owner or a member of their target audience you might find what they write somewhat biased.
Edit: I'll give you an example, I think that one of the few great things about Brexit is that the city hasn't been given a financial passport. I consider that the city which is much loved by the FT is complicit in dirty financial dealings. It is amoral and serves dangerous interests. The financial services it provides whilst purporting to be legal exploit laws in dodgy places to circumvent European laws providing an opacity that benefits the very rich and criminal. So I'm very happy to see Europe being cut off from teh city while the FT laments it.
What’s wrong with the FT?
Edukator doesn't like it apparently.
Edukator doesn’t like it apparently.
No better recommendation than that.
No better recommendation than that.
Made me laugh!
I don't. 🙂 If you thought about who and what it represents you might like it a little less too. The only paper this household subscribes to is Bund Magazin, but I've never ever quoted it on STW, it's so obviously green biased, just as the FT is biased to the other extreme.
Edit: I’ll give you an example, I think that one of the few great things about Brexit is that the city hasn’t been given a financial passport. I consider that the city which is much loved by the FT is complicit in dirty financial dealings. It is amoral and serves dangerous interests. The financial services it provides whilst purporting to be legal exploit laws in dodgy places to circumvent European laws providing an opacity that benefits the very rich and criminal. So I’m very happy to see Europe being cut off from teh city while the FT laments it.
What has your dislike of the City of London got to do with EU Vaccine suspensions?
What’s wrong with the FT? Found to be the least partisan UK news source by independent research.
It's no more bias than any French media I see.
Even if you don't like the FT, given that the Covax program is pretty much based around the AZ vaccine, then the behaviour of the EU (France & Germany esp as they have lots of ex colonies in Africa) is pretty damning.
First they complain about it's efficiency and Merkel publically refuses it, then they change their minds. Then they say it's unsade, then they change their minds. Then they claim the UK isn't giving them enough, whilst they have 10,000s of unused doses because they can't make up their minds about using it. If it wasn't for the fact that people are dying for not having a vaccine (their own citizens) it would make a great Ealing comedy. Oh and the fact that every time they publicly slate the vaccine it makes front page news across their ex-colonies who will only get AZ via Covax, helping spread rumours and distrust.
It is pretty pathetic.
It's interesting that we (people in the UK, especially the press) are happy to refer to mistakes made by member countries as being "EU mistakes"... along with the mistakes that are actually made at the EU level. It all comes down to "EU is bad", whether the problems are at the national level or EU level. Especially if it's a French or German EU politician or organisation. Take the delay... the EMA say not to pause AZ vaccine roll out... member state bodies decide to pause AZ vaccine use... and the story is that it is the EU being over cautious, not the sovereign member states acting with the autonomy that we like to pretend they don't have.
You keep linking the FT with stuff about Europe that is patently bollocks and then asked what I don't like about the FT so I told you.
That's how we got here, you've linked four FT articles in the 24 hours that are clearly anti-European.
Even the Guardian has an anti-Europea sub agenda. They claim to be pro EU but their selection of European stories to report could be summed up as lets take the piss out of Europe just for kicks. It all part of buliding anti-European feeling.
Ask yourself a simple question on the vaccine issue, which country in continental Europe has the highest level of vaccination and has lied or distorted information to justify what is a very selfish approach?
All of the jsutifications for the UK getting more vaccines can be countered:
The UK financed the research - so did Europe
The UK signed first - no it didn't
But the Uk had a pre-agreement - so did the EU, it provided funding remember
The EU contract was on a best effort basis - so was the Uk contract
It's a propaganda war and the FT is very much a part of it.
As with any war there will be casualties, unfortunately fall out of bad will is likely to be the humble British citizen and small British businesses.
As a dual national I find the whole Brexit, NI, vaccine conflict (because it's increasingly conflictual) unnecessary and damaging. People will suffer, not those who own the TF and the rest of the country, you the little people, even Mefty. 😉 I could write pages about how th edamge being done will affect you, there's already plenty by various contribuotrs on other threads.
I'll leave this thread with suggestion. There are always two sides, try to see it from the other side's point of view. Put yourself in the shoes of the French, the Germans, the Irish, the protestants, the catholics... .
The Germans could have done what the UK has done, Biontech is German, but they've played the European solidarity card. Every European country gets the vaccines in proportion to its populations and needs. So think how Germany will be viewed when all this is over and how the UK will be viewed. As a part Brit that saddens me.
Ed is correct here. From this side of the channel (and Irish Sea), the FT is seen as far more even handed on international issues then the rest of the UK press... and they probably are... but that is a very low hurdle to get over. They still suffer from UK bias and hypocrisy when it comes to the rest of Europe. Just less so than many other outlets.
The UK financed the research – so did Europe
The UK signed first – no it didn’t
But the Uk had a pre-agreement – so did the EU, it provided funding remember
The EU contract was on a best effort basis – so was the Uk contract
Are you not swallowing the EU propaganda, if the EU had a material case AZ would be in court right now.
Every European country gets the vaccines in proportion to its populations and needs.
Let's start with its the EU not Europe, next the distribution isn't working that way and non EU vaccines are being used in EU countries because of the shortfalls
Any idea that the EU commission and countries are not engaged in their own propaganda to get out of their political issues is deluded
The FT is an international paper headquartered in the UK, 70% of its subscribers are outside the UK it has been printing international editions for years, more than 40 in the case of the Frankfurt printing operation and it is owned by the Japanese.
They still suffer from UK bias and hypocrisy when it comes to the rest of Europe.
Name the newspaper that doesn't have a national bias and hypocrisy
The FT is an international paper
Yes it is. And, as I said, is seen here as far more even handed when reporting international stories than anything else published in the UK.
But also…
They still suffer from UK bias and hypocrisy when it comes to the rest of Europe.
But it also true that it is impossible to…
Name the newspaper that doesn’t have a national bias and hypocrisy
The UK financed the research – so did Europe
The UK signed first – no it didn’t
But the Uk had a pre-agreement – so did the EU, it provided funding remember
The EU contract was on a best effort basis – so was the Uk contract
I'd be interested to read the sources of these claims - I have been google'ing around and not really found any support, e.g. this article has a different take:
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/
Do you have a reference for an EU funding as early as May 2020, bearing in mind tha the EU vaccine strategy was not presented until June??
Do you have a reference for an EU funding as early as May 2020, bearing in mind tha the EU vaccine strategy was not presented until June??
You can try going direct to EU news providers and searching from within those sites which is what I tried to do.
I didn't find those references admittedly. In either German/Italian/French/Spanish news sites.
You can try going direct to EU news providers and searching from within those sites which is what I tried to do.
I didn’t find those references admittedly. In either German/Italian/French/Spanish news sites.
Indeed - so do we conclude that there are none, or that our google fu is weak? 🙂 Easiest thing is if Edu just provides the sauce.
I think we've had enough of Ed's sauce.
Indeed – so do we conclude that there are none, or that our google fu is weak? 🙂 Easiest thing is if Edu just provides the sauce.
Quite
Although I do appreciate a different perspective, that perspective doesn't count for anything without evidence particularly from someone always keen to criticize.
And for context, I voted remain, I've already voted for the break up of the UK and hope to so so again, and in a few months I'll vote for a party that pretty much exists in order to achieve that break up. I'd also vote after that happened and presented with the opportunity to rejoin the EU.
I'm not really a UK fanboi
"I saw this on the TV" doesn't really cut it.
If we do get links, they will genuinely be appreciated.
Do you have a reference for an EU funding
Member countries provided funding. Most notably Germany, that funded the first vaccine we started rolling out here in the UK:
Even the Guardian has an anti-Europea sub agenda. They claim to be pro EU but their selection of European stories to report could be summed up as lets take the piss out of Europe just for kicks. It all part of buliding anti-European feeling.
What complete and utter twoddle.
Have you ever actually read the Guardian? It doesn't sound like it. It spends its entire time bemoaning the stupidity of Brexit and gazing longingly across the channel.
Member countries provided funding. Most notably Germany, that funded the first vaccine we started rolling out here in the UK:
I believe the poster was talking about AZ not Pfizer?
Member countries provided funding. Most notably Germany, that funded the first vaccine we started rolling out here in the UK:
The claim was made about the AZ vaccine, not the Pfizer, Pfizer themselves weren't funded it was Biontech their partner
This poster...?
The Germans could have done what the UK has done, Biontech is German, but they’ve played the European solidarity card.
He was challenging the UK narrative that seems to be almost universally accepted over here...
- only we invested (so did others in Europe, and we benefited from their investment)
- we signed agreements first (not that clear)
The "EU" was slower to respond, especially as regards liability and risk, and other countries may well have rolled out sooner if they had gone it alone, as we did. But the UK was not the only country to pump money into research, and the EU also signed up early for vaccines ahead of their approval for use.
I believe the poster was talking about AZ not Pfizer?
Yep - and EU, not individual member states, though it is perhaps fair to point out that Germany might have a claim to first dibs on the Pfizer doses.
For DrP
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/17/europe/uk-astrazeneca-vaccine-contract-details-intl/index.html
It's the European stories that the Guardian reports from around Europe and the way they do it that irritate, Binners. I'm convinced they have someone who trawls the pages most people don't get to in European papers for tit bits to make headlines with in the UK. And then they put a reproachful slant on it. It gives the impression that Europeans are sex mad, sex offenders, sexist, mysoginist, corrupt, incomptent... . What they don't publish are the good news European stories.
Well the French has now authorixed the use of the AZ vaccine for only those aged 55 and over, nothing like consistent messaging to help allay anti vax fears.
The differences between the UK and EU AZ contracts are detailed in the link I posted. Also - there is no mention of EU funding AZ research in that article.
Like piemonster, I am no Brexit supporter - the contrary - I'm happy to be wrong, but I haven't seen support for the claims you (Ed) listed.
The EU didn't fund any research. Germany funded the only other vaccine now in widespread use here. Other vaccine developments were funded by member states and haven't paid off yet (eg Sanofi/France). I don't think anyone has claimed the EU funded the AZ vaccine, have they?
Because the blood clotting and other strong reactions concern those under 55, Mefty. Seems like good sense to me when there are other vaccines for the Under 55s. It will help with take up with junior health workers who have been massively refusing the AZ vaccine. If they're offered one of the others because they're under 55 you can expect better take up.
You really don't understand the way things work over here, Mefty. Politicians are accountable and held to account. That means they keep their arses clean or wind up in court.
@Kelvin i think were at cross posts somewhere along the line. But I'm too busy trying not to fall asleep in a Teams meeting to fix it 😆
Although DrP has confirmed it was the AZ being referenced so go me!
Politicians are accountable and held to account
Ah yea, how is Sarkozy doing ....
Wed probably give him a Knighthood
You are such a fanboi, so sweet.
I don’t think anyone as claimed the EU funded the AZ vaccine, have they?
Ed:
All of the jsutifications for the UK getting more vaccines can be countered:
The UK financed the research – so did Europe
I understood the discussion was about AZ, and that "Europe" meant "the EU", not "one individual European country".
Ah yea, how is Sarkozy doing
So far a 2-year jail sentence and a court case for illegal party funding that is currently delayed due to a lawyer having Covid.
Accountable.
It gives the impression that Europeans are sex mad, sex offenders, sexist, mysoginist, corrupt, incomptent…
To be honest that reads like standard UK fare about UK citizens
DrJ my long ranty post didn't name AZ, you are making a connection with AZ that isn't there. I talked about "Europe" in relation to "funding" in that post, and EU in realation to other things. I talked about Biontech and Germany.
I know you like me to have said "the EU funded Oxford" but I didn't. Tongue our smiley here.
I was adressing the issue in its globality, it was inteded to be my last contribution to the thread, but as it's being picked apart I'm calrifying.
Some people here are looking at the situation through red, white and blue spectacles, and thankfully some aren't.
Madame drew my attention to this:
The events, "bof", the reporting "WTF", the headline "really" (whilst rolling eyes).
So when you wrote
All of the jsutifications for the UK getting more vaccines can be countered:
The UK financed the research – so did Europe
The UK signed first – no it didn’t
But the Uk had a pre-agreement – so did the EU, it provided funding remember
The EU contract was on a best effort basis – so was the Uk contract
you were actually referring to Pfizer and not AZ?
Yeah, right.
Yeah, right.
And the only source provided was about AZ not Pfizer
I'm another ardent Remoaner who thinks our government are a disgrace and the EU have been largely the only grownups in the room with regard to EU negotiations - but the biggest EU countries are really not covering themselves in glory in this situation, at all.
Macron was desperate to do down the AZ vaccine and made dubious claims about it's efficacy in older groups, then they suspend vaccinations because of conspiracy theories about blood clots that turned out to be completely unfounded. And this in a country that already has strongly vaccine hesitant tendencies - what did he think was going to happen?
Edit: just noticed the hilarious backtracking/shifting the goalposts from Educator. Seriously?
you were actually referring to Pfizer and not AZ?
He was referring to "vaccines". He even mentioned the other one in use in significant numbers in that post you've quoted from.
then they suspend vaccinations because of conspiracy theories about blood clots that turned out to be completely unfounded
They suspended use while it was looked into. Over cautious, but it's been discussed at length why that might be. I think those bodies that halted use got it wrong, and will have put off more people than they will reassure with those measures... but then I haven't lived in any of the countries where they did that (not quite true, but I was an infant)... perhaps it's just possible that the view from within those countries of that move is quite different to the view from the UK, no?
Well the French has now authorixed the use of the AZ vaccine for only those aged 55 and over, nothing like consistent messaging to help allay anti vax fears.
Has Macron apologised for his false claim that it's ineffective for those over 65 then? Or are they just aiming for that 55-65 window? 😆
Poor diddums upset that France couldn't get a vaccine together?
perhaps it’s just possible that the view from within those countries of that move is quite different to the view from the UK, no?
I'm sure it is but they have their own nationalist tendencies/propaganda too. I'm about the least patriotic/nationalistic person there is but I can see when other countries are at it. Show me where anyone was acting on actual medical advice re suspending the vaccinations rather than rumours?
I suggest reading the John Lichfield article I posted on the previous page as a good and balanced starting point.
the reporting “WTF”
That's French journalists for you.
I suggest reading the John Lichfield article I posted on the previous page as a good and balanced starting point.
TL;DR = the English press/media are biased and stupid 😲
I'm not convinced about the not political bit, personally.
you were actually referring to Pfizer and not AZ?
I was refering to four issues. I didn't state which vaccines. If you were familiar with each of the issues you'd have know which vaccine I was most probably refering to, especially if you read further.
And the only source provided was about AZ not Pfizer
And the only company refered to by name was Biontech.
Has Macron apologised for his false claim that it’s ineffective for those over 65 then? Or are they just aiming for that 55-65 window? 😆
Poor diddums upset that France couldn’t get a vaccine together?
I have no idea why you think Macron should apologise he was working on the best advice available at the time. Other nations decided not to use the AZ vaccine on over 65s earlier, Grum. Pragamtism over dogma and the ability to adapt policy as knowledge improves - qualities in my book.
Some of you are coming over as properly provocatively xenophonic with bucketfuls of bad faith to boot. You're getting caught up in an orchestrated nationalistic frenzy which is harming UK relations with its neighbours.
orchestrated nationalistic frenzy which is harming UK relations with its neighbours.
Piffle. Ursula what's its name started it <sticks tongue out>
And the only company refered to by name was Biontech.
😆
I have no idea why you think Macron should apologise he was working on the best advice available at the time.
opposite advice was coming from the EMA
The comments went beyond the science
But UK bashing is OK so carry on
You’re getting caught up in an orchestrated nationalistic frenzy which is harming UK relations with its neighbours.
Where? The shuffling queue in the local vaccination centre didn't seem to be in a nationalistic frenzy. They are even vaccinating EU citizens in them and nobody boos and waves a Union Jack
You’re getting caught up in an orchestrated nationalistic frenzy which is harming UK relations with its neighbours.
That's nothing Ed. They're being reasonably objective and reasonable compared to many people over here at the moment. You're seeing the best, not the worst of it, sadly.
There is no doubt at all vaccine nationalism is at play. Pretty much everyone is at it one way or another if they are in a position to do so.
Sometimes it takes the form of export bans, absurdly high order levels, fending of criticism at home, or using vaccine diplomacy for long term geo strategic gains, having vaccinated virtually your entire population and then not supporting your next door neighbour!
Even countries within the EU have shafted each other over during the pandemic if you go back far enough.
Its shite, no doubt about it. But unless the EU ships all their vaccines to those around the world most in need they are in no place to preach.
Nations, by default look after their own first. That's not the world I want to live in but it is the world I live in.
You’re getting caught up in an orchestrated nationalistic frenzy
Says the man who claims everything about France is perfect. I despise our government and frankly many of its citizens, but in this particular case the French are pretty much as bad.
I agree that anti EU sentiment is being stirred up by those with an agenda, but that doesn't make any criticism of European countries untrue. The Guardian has been staunchly pro EU throughout Brexit but even they have been highly critical - why?
I'm aware of that, Kelvin. My first sentence of the paragraph quoted starts with "Some of you".
There's always been a bit of teasing and banter on here that revolves around nationality. I'm comfortable with that, Kryton57 up there made me smile. However, some of it is clearly intended to be unpleasant.
Madame is Facebook friends with someone who knows someone I knew so he popped up on her friend suggestions. "Do you know so and so?" she asked and I went to have a look. 🙁 I'm seeing the best here and I thank you all whatever the day's debate/mud slinging might be. 🙂
Edit: dear me, Grum. You know that's not true, everybody else does too, so why type it? With respect to Covid I've been critical of the French government's initial advice that mask wearing by the general public was unnecessary, critical of not enforcing mask wearing in primary schools until they did, critical of incoherancies in policy, critical of the behaviour of sections of our communities who should know better... .
I agree that anti EU sentiment is being stirred up by those with an agenda, but that doesn’t make any criticism of European countries untrue. The Guardian has been staunchly pro EU throughout Brexit but even they have been highly critical – why?
The criticism isn't limited to the UK media, its global including within the EU. Same with the UKs catastrophic handling of lockdown and messaging
I was refering to four issues. I didn’t state which vaccines. If you were familiar with each of the issues you’d have know which vaccine I was most probably refering to, especially if you read further.
That's cobblers, and you know it, but I don't feel justified boring everyone by once again posting your claims and pointing out how they make no sense except in the context of AZ. If people are interested (unlikely) they can look at your post and see if your points have any relevance to other vaccines.
Someone being a jambon then?
So having failed to find any evidence of lying that stands up examination you're just making a personal attack, DrJ. It's all in your head. You're inventing stuff I haven't said and then acuse me of lying about it.
I checked the synonyms of "cobblers":
lie
invention
falsehood
untruth
misinformation
fabrication
white lie
half-truth
a tissue of lies
fairy tale
28 more words
a crock (of shit)
a pack of lies
baloney
bluff
BS
bull
bullshit
codswallop
concoction
cover
cover story
disinformation
Elsewhere it looks like Norway, Denmark, Sweden and now Finland are still not using the AZ Vaccine.
I'm not getting into the politics.
Just desperately sad to see the news tonight. Europe having a third wave which should have/ could have been avoided.
Can't be bothered, Ed. If anyone cares (which I doubt) they can look at your claims and see if they stack up.
Good idea, DrJ, credit people with the intelligence to read and understand for themselves without having you ram a distorted version down their throats.
And how should Europe have avoided a third wave, Poopscoop? Maybe Europe should have completely closed its borders with the UK 12 months ago then we wouldn't have been infected with the Kent variant that developped in a country that let the virus rip thus increasing the risk of mutations. Because the third wave is the Kent variant, that much is clear.
Had enough of this toxic anti-Europe stuff now.
Like I said, I'm not getting involved the the arguing/ politics mate.
Just desperately sad to see the news tonight. Europe having a third wave which should have/ could have been avoided.
Dunno how much that could have been avoided tbh: the AZ scepticism is pretty recent and irrelevant to today's statistics. I think we're suffering from the decisions taken before Christmas.
So, Poopscoop, you just drop in and post some provoctive reproaches about European Covid politics and then don't want to argue about it. That's called trolling.
Oh and from what I remember, "mate" to someone you're far from mates with is an insult.
Good idea, DrJ, credit people with the intelligence to read and understand for themselves .
I think people have done exactly that, Ed.
I think we’re suffering from the decisions taken before Christmas.
Decisions made in the UK. The tier system, and a circuit breaker being months late, gave us and spread the Kent variant that’s causing so much trouble across the continent now.