[Closed] Ethics of 15 rated film in primary school

I'd certainly not think that's appropriate and would be loudly voicing my objections.

Is it a question of ethics, or one of law?

Depends. Boy in the striped pajamas or Schindler's list (actually 12 and of respectively, but if they were 15) in the context of learning about the Holocaust would be different to the human centipede and medical ethics.

I don't have kids.

What is the film?

Looked into this a while ago, BBFC says:

What is the legal position of a teacher who wants to show pupils a film or video at a higher category than their age?
The BBFC's cinema age ratings only apply to films shown in licensed cinemas. If you are taking a school group to the cinema for a standard screening where you are paying to view the film, the normal rules and laws apply.  You may not take a 14-year-old to see a 15-rated film or a 16-year-old to see an 18-rated film.

The age rating for a DVD, video or Blu-ray explains which audience we believe the film is suitable for, and applies to point of sale or rental rather than to where the material is viewed. It is not actually illegal for schools to show BBFC-rated videos, DVDs or Blu-rays to its pupils of any age, just as parents may also choose to show any material to children in the home. Merely showing an age-restricted film to underaged persons - or allowing them to see one outside a licensed cinema - is not in itself an offence.

We would, however, strongly discourage such a practice unless (a) the children in question are only a year or so below the age stated on the certificate, and (b) there is a serious educational purpose to showing the recording (eg showing well-known works or educational films such as 15-rated Schindler's List to 14-year-old GCSE students). Even in such cases, schools should seek parental consent prior to showing the film. We would also recommend obtaining the approval of the Head Teacher and Governors. It is vital to make sure that any children watching are not likely to suffer any ill effects as a result of seeing the film.

A cinema would get in deep shit if it deliberately showed a 15 rated film to 10 year olds, I think a school would be too. Does the BBFC site have an entry for the film?

edit - Ah, I see from vinneh's post that they may be legally OK even though they're still falling foul of the "within a year or so" caveat. They're still on shaky ground unless they're very carefully picking scenes that avoid the elements that got the film its 15 rating.

As above, what's the film? You say 'set film', but I can't see that a 15 film would be a fixed part of a Year 6 curriculum.

[edit] Schindler's list is indeed 15, the first result on Google when I checked was just a trailer.

Doesnt sound right to me. We dont let our 11yr old watch 15 films so i wouldn't be too happy with this.

Have a word with someone at the school more senior.

what’s the film?

This.

What's the film?

They'll probably seek consent nearer the time which you can abstain your child from taking part.

We shouldn't have to be put in the position where it becomes necessary to opt out a child from a film.

I don't think the school should be making that decision on your behalf.

We let our 10 yr olds watch the occasional 15. If its just a bit of swearing then im not bothered as I am sure they hear and probably use worse in the playground (I know I did) whats more important to me is that they understand when its not appropriate to use that sort of language.

but am I being over-protective?

Yes

Ethics / Morals, they're important but in this case I think it's more important for you to decide whether exposing your Kid to it is a good idea.

I tend not to beat about the bush with Teachers, they're too used to getting their own way, if you don't want your Son to watch the film, tell them "Don't show that film to my Son".

but am I being over-protective?

No. (for balance)

BBFC have given the film a rating for a reason. This kind of decision falls entirely in the purview of the parent, regardless of what the teacher involved is recommending. You get to choose when your child is exposed to emotionally distressing or violent or even sweary material in class.

You can't demand that the screening is scrapped altogether, as some parents might be perfectly comfortable with it, but it is perfectly reasonable to withdraw your child, and it seems very unlikely that his understanding of the topic will be wrecked by missing the film.

We shouldn’t have to be put in the position where it becomes necessary to opt out a child from a film.

Depends on the film, which we're still none the wiser what it is, and the reason for the school adding it to their curriculum.

Mrs P is coincidentally running her final primary school cinema club after doing it for >5 years today. It's done in conjunction with some organisation that supplies/recommends films. Occasionally they show one that's less suitable for KS1 and so she clearly communicates why this would be and suggests to parents that younger/sensitive children may want to miss that one. There's no way on earth that this would be anywhere near a 15 certificate level.

It sounds like a teacher has not really thought it through and once the SLT or governors become aware it would get immediately stopped I'd suggest - before the local press have a field day.

I'd have a word with a deputy or the head and not feel in the least bit guilty about saying my child won't be attending.

Depends on the film, which we’re still none the wiser what it is, and the reason for the school adding it to their curriculum.

I'm certainly interested to hear why the school thinks they have more expertise in film classification than the BBFC.

My two are 12 & 15 so will have been through the curriculum yours is going through. We didn't opt out of any films and I don't remember ever having any concerns, let us know the film and I can see if it was one they viewed and at what age.
For the record I am massively protective over what my two watch and I have been a little taken aback by what now classes as 15 versus my expectations. Now may daughter is 15 I have pretty much accepted that I can't monitor every 15 rated film for her and that she is mature enough to manage whatever is thrown at her on screen. My son does the usual "why can she watch it and I can't" thing, but i still do the check on anything above a 12 for him.
To get back on topic, schools should have the level of common sense required to know if the film is age appropriate, or am i being naive?

Depends on the film, which we’re still none the wiser what it is, and the reason for the school adding it to their curriculum.

This.

I'm also against parents being put into the position of withdrawing their child as it can causes other issues with regards to bullying etc.

I’m certainly interested to hear why the school thinks they have more expertise in film classification than the BBFC.

Because the BBFC is for cinema film classification not education.

For example - the original Karate Kid was a 15 cert, it's now a 12.

Tim Burton's Batman, the first 12 certificate film in the cinema, was a 15 when released on video.

So until we know the movie we cannot judge your kid's school.

I’m certainly interested to hear why the school thinks they have more expertise in film classification than the BBFC.

A film shown in isolation can be very different from a film shown as part of education: discussions before and after; forewarning of the more disturbing parts; the opportunity to edit out any particularly nasty sections...

It’s a no from me. A 15 film is very unlikely to be suitable for primary school children.

My local school showed the year 6 children Coralline without checking with the parents first. That’s a PG and there was a lot of anger as it’s quite a dark film for many children.

Even if they fast forward the swearing the rest of the content could be quite testing.

Seems unnecessary to me.

Definitely depends on the film, as others have said.

Harrowing? You know your child's ability to cope better than anyone, so up to you whether you let them see it.

Swearing? **** that. They hear it all the time. My 16 year old still doesn't swear in front of me, but I know him and his mates are, well, pretty normal.

Thanks all for the replies.

Film is Touching The Void.

Because the BBFC is for cinema film classification not education.

Disregarding the BBFC guidance solely because it's being shown in a school rather than a cinema isn't good enough. The school will need to be ready to demonstrate the serious educational purpose of showing the film, and that showing a 15 rated film to 10 year olds won't cause harm or distress. From 10 to 15 is quite a jump, and while some of a class of 10 year olds may be fine with the content of a film rated 15 it's very likely some will not.

Just seen the post identifying the film. I wouldn't be happy with a 10 year old of mine being needlessly exposed to Boney M even if it is for educational purposes.

Film is Touching The Void.

I wasn't expecting that!

I'd let all my kids watch that, on the basis that I can't remember anything overly worrying in the content. (Other than the whole hanging by a rope, crawling through the mountains, possible death by mountain, etc). I've read the book as well. But then I accidentally let my 8 year old watch Jaws a few months ago. She's not too traumatised.....

Seems a very odd choice of film for 10year olds to me. I'm not a parent but I can't imagine a wider educational context for that particular film that couldn't be equally or better served by another.

Touching the Void was rated 15 for "very strong language" and tbf that's probably one of the easiest things to contextualise for a child.

Depends if they are studying the book too?

According the BBFC website it's 15 due to strong language, I personally wouldn't have an issue. However, they are not my child.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/9289401/Touching-the-Void-climber-bombarded-with-abuse-by-school-children.html

at least in a school there will be a discussion and back up to discuss the whys and wheres of the content

unlike a cinema where some parents will watch the movie with their kids and then leave and there will be no further discussion on the content.

Surely if it's an end of term thing, Deadpool would be a better alternative?

Or have they got a school sponsored trip to South America coming up?

only a 15 due to language, apparently

https://bbfc.co.uk/releases/touching-void-2003-0

that said, I'm not sure I'd want an entire year of 10 year olds learning new swearwords 😀

that said, I’m not sure I’d want an entire year of 10 year olds learning new swearwords 😀

They probably know more than we do.

Can't see what damage that film would do to a 9/10 year old watching it in a classroom as part of a discussion/lesson. I can however see the damage making a point of excluding the child from that experience would do to the child.

It’s a bit sweary but that’s about it. I’d not be too worried abut it but you may think different.

I seem to remember a bit of broken bone-grinding action but no actual gore. A few c-words and quite a few f-words. There will have to be a lot of fast-forwarding or some of this.

Just out of curiosity does you son read books?

If so, does he read those with fruity language?

I remember reading the Northern Lights trilogy, & the way some of the violence was described would've probably made the film 15 if it had accurately depicted.

I do not even have children, but can say that there would be no way I would let this slide.

there would be no way I would let this slide.

That's why he had to cut the rope.

Good guide on IMDB
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379557/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg

4 uses of the C*** word (apologies for swear filter avoidance, but I think it has context) ! I'd hope they ffwd over those, but that's about it.

I do not even have children, but can say that there would be no way I would let this slide.

I have children I'd let this slide.

am I being over-protective?

IMO, yes.

Touching the Void? Wasn’t expecting that. Not sure how that would fit into the curriculum.

My 11 year old was shown The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas and a letter was sent home prior to it. My wife bought the DVD in a charity shop and we watched it beforehand. I had no problem with it in the end, but he’s not ready for Schindler’s List.

Can’t see why 10 year olds need to be shown Touching The Void though, even if it is a great story. Is the teacher a bit, you know, Berghaus and Buffs?

90mins of Joe Simpson the main risk would be that they might turn out a bit like Joe Simpson. Otherwise it would be a non-issue for me. I am wondering what the educational aspect is meant to be though?

You can’t demand that the screening is scrapped altogether, as some parents might be perfectly comfortable with it, but it is perfectly reasonable to withdraw your child,

With the caveat that I don't have kids,

I'm not sure as I agree with this. If you feel that the film is inappropriate then raise it with the school to see if they can show something else. Being "that kid" who was the only one who missed out on something that the rest of the class has seen / done is going to be more harmful to them then hearing a couple of adults use a naughty word that they probably hear twelve times a day in the playground. IMHO.

Mountains, glaciers, geography, rivers, etc. It’s probably fine, and as has been mentioned, it would do more damage to exclude him from it. Still, if I was in authority there I wouldn’t have set a film with a 15 rating. Thanks for all the inputs.

As said above, I can't see what educational benefit they'll get from seeing the film............

Kids will be bored, not traumatised. Surprising choice of film and difficult to understand educational context other than teaching about resilience.

Having said that, age 9/10 watching a 15 is quite a stretch. We had to consent to our 11 year old watching Boy in Striped PJ's and I had no issue with doing so. I find it surprising that the school is pushing this type of arrangement across such a wide gap.

I totally get why you are asking the question though. One one hand I disagree with that age group watching 15's, on the other hand Touching the Void doesn't feel like a big deal to me. Not sure what I would do.

As said above, I can’t see what educational benefit they’ll get from seeing the film…………

Some might go on to film making and it would be good for them to know what a crap film looks like?

I waited till my lad was 12 before letting him watch aliens.

One of the great things about stw is always the vast spread of opinions. I knew I’d get some good responses and I’ve got lots to think about now. Cheers.

Being “that kid” who was the only one who missed out on something that the rest of the class has seen / done is going to be more harmful to them

When I was lickle, we moved house and I started a new junior school. The class I joined were part way through the sex education stuff and as I hadn't done any at my previous school, I was excluded. I was too young to know what it was all about (the sex ed, and the excluding)... but I do still remember it!
Whether it had any harmful consequences, I wouldn't like to say!
I also remember that they were part way through "The Hobbit" in English lessons and I didn't get excluded from that shite and its given me a complete aversion to Tolkien throughout my life.

As said above, I can’t see what educational benefit they’ll get from seeing the film…………

Isn't the book part of the curriculum? I imagine the film will be shown as part of that to help out pupils who struggle to engage with reading.

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ is a good place to start for any TV/film/game you have concerns over. Obviously far more nuanced than a number in a circle.

I'd be ok with it

Being “that kid” who was the only one who missed out on something that the rest of the class has seen / done is going to be more harmful to them then hearing a couple of adults use a naughty word that they probably hear twelve times a day in the playground. IMHO.

Imagine being the kid who's parents stopped the rest of the year watching a film.

The whole thing is very odd. It doesn't matter whether individuals might be ok with a particular film. lf its to be shown in class more or less all the children and their parents have to be ok with it.
A 15 film with the C and F word in it isn't ok to be shown in primary school, it just isn't !! My feeling is that this is purely the teachers choice, he hasn't thought it through or run it past a more senior staff member. Your obviously concerned so call the school and speak to someone higher up the food chain.

https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ is a good place to start[/i]

Interesting!
their view:
"age 16+
Excruciatingly tense story of a terrible accident."

My lad has spent many weekends with drunk Trackdayers coming in like they're high on heroin after doing a session on their bikes.

I'd be fine with it.

lf its to be shown in class more or less all the children and their parents have to be ok with it.

Which is why schools generally send a letter out a asking the parents.

I think it's up to you to decide - asking here shows you have a genuine concern to make sure your children don't miss out on anything educational, but you seem uneasy about it, so go with your conviction/judgement.

I personally have made sure my children know all the naughty words they should not ever repeat, so wouldn't have a problem with a sweary version of the film. The only possible problem with swearwords is child is a shit and goes off saying them everywhere knowingly to offend, or child is too innocent and has no idea it's a swearword so repeats it everywhere and causes offence (scenario 2 happened to me once that I recall!).

I agree it's quite a harrowing film, but probably OK for older children. As for:

We shouldn’t have to be put in the position where it becomes necessary to opt out a child from a film.

This is typical of the right to impose one's views on everyone that seems to be more and more prevalent these days. Get over yourself. Make a decision on what's best for your children, and don't expect other people's views or children to be the same.

I've talked to my 9 year old son at length about touching the void as i re-read it recently and he was asking me about it. It is a great story of resilience and goal setting. I didn't let him read the book or see the film though due to the language.

I remember watching walkabout at school at about 12. We all got very excited with the full frontal nudity when Jenny Agutter went skinny dipping.

I can't imagine that the book of Touching the Void is on the curriculum for 10 year olds (I have a 9 year old son, have read the book and have the film on DVD).

Sounds more like an inexperienced teacher who does not know what they are doing. I'd check with the head, my childrens school wouldn't show it due to the language.

I'd be interested to know why they're watching it.

I remember watching walkabout at school at about 12. We all got very excited with the full frontal nudity when Jenny Agutter went skinny dipping.

We read Watership Down in English Lit, probably aged about 14. We got a bit giddy hearing a teacher reading "piss off" out loud. Different times.

If it has been put on the curriculum, then the film will help students understand it better. The blame here would lie with whoever decided this was appropriate for primary curriculum.
I am sure that the teacher who is showing it has their own children and / or works with hundreds of children a year and is quite capable of deciding what issues are present. They will also have access to the mute button for bad language (perhaps they even watched the film and wrote down the timings to use the mute). Also they can fast forward the gory bits, isn't tech wonderful these days.

As long as educational justification can be demonstrated then the film can be shown. I doubt in a primary school that the Head Teacher isn't aware.

Tbf though, I was watching reservoir dogs / trainspotting at a young age.

Gotta admit! Chopper was decent viewing

As a primary school teacher of 20 years, there's no way I would show a 15 rated film to my year 5 class. The teacher is opening a can of worms that I wouldn't want to. I'm pretty liberal. I wonder what the school governors would say about this? Experts have rated the film! Trust the judgements of ratings authority. If you're not happy about the film being shown, make the school aware. I'm sure you're not alone .

My parents were both teachers. Mum quite liked all the crazy channel 4 stuff and we often watched them. We watched plenty of 18 films on the coach on school trips . Steve Beko and Mississippi burning were on the curriculum.

In other respects I was quite sheltered compared to some peers. That turned out to be a disadvantage.

Molly coddle children if you want but you will create a risk Averse, unbalanced wean with no tools to deal with issues further down the line.

They will be seeing worse on the internet already. Don’t kid yourself on everything is locked down.

Jesus they made a film?!

I am pretty sure we got to see a boob in a cartoon version of romeo and juliet aged about ten.

Video* got paused and we received a bollocking for all laughing.

*I think it might even have been a betamax

Kids might be exposed to all sorts in life these days but that doesn’t mean it should be available, even censored, in a primary school.

Touching the Void isn’t age appropriate and I’d want to know why they think it’s a good idea because it’s not!.

Is it possible they have a bleeped/censored version? I wouldn’t have a problem other than the c-word.

Thats a good point. we definitly watched a dissapointing version of braveheart at school.