I only use Volvic in my Europiccola.
@kingofhtefr - Worth checking how much you purge, part of the “sales pitch” for single dose grinders is on the cost of the wasted coffee. Might not be so bad if you go for cheaper beans, could be worse if you dabble in a few or use it for decaf and filter as well.
If it’s 6g a day, then ~2.2kg per year.
If your coffee is £30 a kilo, then over a 10 year expected grinder life it could be ~£660 in total on wasted coffee.
That's one of my questions - presumably if you use a bag of beans then go on to the next you don't lose that much in singe dose grinders? But for switching beans…
That’s one of my questions – presumably if you use a bag of beans then go on to the next you don’t lose that much in singe dose grinders? But for switching beans…
exactly right, a 250g bag will get me 11 x 22g doses of beans. Which lasts me about 3-7 days depending whether my wife is wfh too. I do sometimes change beans every bag if I’m trying some new ones out, but usually I only change beans every other bag. Even then, you don’t really “lose” anything - it’s very unusual that the initial grind setting is so far off that the coffee is anything less than “pretty good” (ie: not wasted)
Part of the advantage for me is that I’ll have a decaf occasionally. And the only way to really do that without a single dose grinder is to subject yourself to pre ground coffee, or have two grinders.
I keep little baggies of decaf beans in the freezer, along with a note of what grind setting to use, and then just adjust my niche zero and grind them directly from frozen when needed. The trick is to remember to set the grinder back again for the regular beans afterwards
Edit: a pretty good use-case is if you are making milk based drinks AND espresso/long blacks (americanos). You might to want to use different beans for these - so a single dose grinder would allow you to do that
Quick question...
When changing to decaf beans, how much would you change the NZ grind setting by?
Or is the change because they are from frozen?
Ta
@stanley, chipping in here as I do this too with an NZ, about 3-4 marks finer for pure decaf, less if going 50/50 which I do at times too. So not a massive amount. This is with room temp brand not frozen as I use decent containers so don't need to freeze beans.
For the main thread question, I have a Flair Pro2 and Niche, it's not cheap and it doesn't make rapid coffee but it does beat most of the coffee shops too, not that I live that close to any. Largely working from home and used through Covid it's all been in daily use for a few years and because the flair is so simple there's no sign of wear and tear even.
Isn’t a Flair the steel SS 29er of espresso machines? 🤔
Thanks @Toby1,
I'll try going slightly finer as I switch to my afternoon decaf.
It tastes ok as I've been making it, but always looking to learn more and improve! I'm still getting some variation in weights and times. Just bought a new tamper and "needle thing" to try and improve consistency.
Cheers
Ah the WDT, or expensive spoon as my wife calls it!
The Flair really is the SS 29er, or perhaps even 26er as it's kind of old school and mostly just for nerds!
When changing to decaf beans, how much would you change the NZ grind setting by?
Or is the change because they are from frozen?
The change is mostly because they are different beans/age - not because they are decaf. Yeah, I go finer by 2-3 steps, but some of that could be to do with the frozen beans or their age vs the fresher beans that I’m using day-to-day.
Keeping my ratio the same (22in / 44out) helps - as does using the same sorts of blends (medium roasts), at about the same freshness (2 weeks from roast date). I find that I don’t really move my grinder more that a couple of clicks in either direction - even when changing beans. As I said in my previous post, I usually have go a click finer towards the end of a bag to adjust for freshness, but that’s about it.
I do occasionally freeze a whole bag of regular beans, then defrost it all at once to use. I haven’t really noticed that I have to grind significantly finer for these - maybe towards the finer end of normal?
But my finding is that (in my use-case) bean freshness is the primary determinant of grind size, even more so than brand/blend of beans, and that freezing beans (vacuum packed, natch) doesn’t impact the grind setting hugely
@kimura54321 it's a useful way of looking at it. My wastage is probably 2/3 of that and my beans are between £19-£30 a kg per month. So the upgrade to a Niche from the Mignon would pay for itself after roughly 10 years, less if coffee prices continue to increase or I waste more.
I still think £500 (or more) for a grinder is a barrier to getting people into great espresso at home. You can single dose for less than half that money if you accept a small amount of wastage.
I agree with you there about the barrier to entry being high, also not 100% sure if a Niche would last 10 years actually…
You can get lucky with ex commercial equipment from eBay/gumtree, or at least you could before everyone was WFH.
This was an old super jolly I fixed up ages ago before eventually selling on, it was less than £50 and was easy to modify to single dose with an octopus batter funnel/camera lens hood puffer, plus new burrs etc. It is faffier though than a Niche where you pay for convenience and a small foot print.
£500 plus for a grinder is offputting, if I'm being honest, and I'm in the lucky position of probably being able to afford to do that.
When you add in the cost of a decent machine, it's suddenly a lot of money for one coffee most days.
Don't worry... it'll soon be 3 shots in the morning and de-caff in the afternoon 🙂
😂
That's what I'm afraid of.
Will need two grinders - extra one for the decaf…
£500 plus for a grinder is offputting, if I’m being honest, and I’m in the lucky position of probably being able to afford to do that.
When you add in the cost of a decent machine, it’s suddenly a lot of money for one coffee most days.
i think, unless you are the greatest of coffee snobs, you dont actually 'need' any crap like this. Most prople just want something thats better than a pod and a filter/aeropress which really isnt hard to achieve.
I`ve a £150 'espresso' maker and it makes better coffee then you get in about 95% of coffee shops, any filter and aeropress coffee - and a league above any nespresso/pod machine. its ruined take out coffee for me as i know its A) ridiculsly cheap to make and B) easy to make half decent.
I have got a decent hand burr grinder but i genuinely cant tell the difference between beans ground using that or by the elec blade copper thing i have - other than the time it takes to grind. fresh grinds with both are nice. even when i go to posh coffee nerds houses it still tastes very similar to what i achieve on my cheap machine.
when i do get a proper '5%' coffee when out its great but IMHO not worth the expense and faff of refining home production in my opinion. i started down that road but ultimately gave up as i've better things to do and i really couldnt notice improvements and i'm happy with what i can produce at home.
getting the beans/roast you like and working out what level of grind works best is key to an acceptable result.
i think, unless you are the greatest of coffee snobs, you dont actually ‘need’ any crap like this
I replace a ~£200 hand grinder (also not cheap I agree) with the Niche, overall improvement to the coffee was negligable, workflow was quicker definitely. So here I agree with the above. BUT before that I was using a £50-£60 bodum grinder that was incapable of grinding fine enough, or with even close to the level of adjustment I have now.
It's loads of money for a grinder, that's undeniable, but it's been used daily for 2 years at least multiple shots a day, it's showing no signs of wear and tear and broken down on a cost per use it's really not that bad. I did have the benefit of getting made redundant with 3 months notice at the time I decided to buy it though, the rest went on vets bills so this was my 'treat' to myself.
BUT before that I was using a £50-£60 bodum grinder that was incapable of grinding fine enough
the 'proper' electric coffee grinder we have at work is crap. i use a blender type thing with much more power at home and its waaay better at getting a finer grind. its not as fine/even as the hnnd grinder but i cant really tell the difference.
however even with a crap grind teh cheap espresso maker is still miles and miles nicer than a pod, aeropress or filter.
coffee can be just another niche wormhole when actually basic deore level stuff is generally totally fine for most people.
So.... how much do you need to spend on a grinder? And any recommendations for "deore level" kit?
On a complete tangent, has anyone actually got a Chris King tamper?
A Eureka Mignon Silenzio was the deore grinder i ended up with, seems fine to me but that's without any experience of the XTR grinders.
On a complete tangent, has anyone actually got a Chris King tamper?
Not quite... but I am waiting on delivery of two "Chris King" baskets 🙂
IMS Precision btw
A Eureka Mignon Silenzio was the deore grinder i ended up with, seems fine to me but that’s without any experience of the XTR grinders.
It’d be handy if manufacturers of other types of kit could standardize on calling them Deore, XT, XTR. It would save the buying public a lot of confusion in choosing.
I’m sure there’s a piece of equipment at work that’s XT…
however even with a crap grind teh cheap espresso maker is still miles and miles nicer than a pod, aeropress or filter.
I’d argue that a good grinder and beans will make a better coffee using an aeropress than a crap grinder and cheap espresso machine will.
@ratherbeintobago - Unless your work canteen has a professional barista, that is pretty good going!
To be fair not sure anyone gets to XTR unless you work in an actual coffee shop… 🤔
Acera - Hand grinder <£200 (some people like them!)
Alivio - Wilfa Uniform <£300 - espresso not guaranteed
Deore - Eureka Mignon £300-400
LX - Mazzer Super Jolly / Niche £500-800
XT - Mazzer Major / Lagom P64 / Weber Key - £800-1,500
XTR - Lagom P100, Kafatek, Mahlkonig EK43S, Weber EG-1 - £2,000-4,000
Anaesthetic equipment, not coffee 😂
That sounds more reasonable, you would hope it’s not something people cheap out on!
Every coffee and espresso discussion gets to this point.
Making espresso (in particular) you reach a tipping point whereby anything you do/buy is subject to increasingly diminishing returns and becomes not worth it. That point is different for everybody, and depends on what quality and convenience is acceptable to you, and what you are prepared to pay to achieve that.
For some people that’s a hand grinder and an aeropress, or maybe a bean-to-cup, or a sage “barista pro” or whatever.
I’ve basically hit that point with a lelit MaraX machine and a niche zero grinder. That’s about £1,500. For me, that’s worth it - although I’m sure others might be outraged at me spending that amount (at which point the stw irony-meter would explode).
I’d love a flashier machine/grinder, but I think I’d have to spend about £6k to get better results - and for me, that’s just not worth it.
You can get probably 60% of the way there with a cheap machine and a hand grinder. If that’s where you want to stop - fair enough. Most people wouldn’t consider “expensive instant” to be worth it, and would call anyone grinding their own beans a coffee snob.
Edit: one of the good things about slightly more expensive kit/machines is that they hold their value (or even go up). I could sell mine today for more than I paid for them - so the “value” calculation is even less clear
So spend big on used is the best value then. Noted.
^ not necessarily. As I said, used kit seems to hold its value, so you might save a bit from going second hand. But not much.
Bargains are out there, my first machine was a “commercial” Faema e98 for £60, and the same again for a mazzer super jolly. Both were in exceptionally rough condition, but good lockdown projects.
There seem to be fewer bargains like that in the uk vs Australia, but I have seen a few on eBay etc when I’ve looked.
My old man had one of these
Whenever he made a shot with it, the basket/puck would be full of water. It also couldn't cope with fine ground coffee, would just get bunged up.
The porta filter has a rubber gasket of some kind in it.
Anyway, let's just say my old man no longer needs the machine so I could make use of it. Can a low end machine like this be turned into something half decent with some simple modifications?
Fwiw, I'm currently a stovetop and aeropress user
It sounds like it’s got a pressurised portafilter. The filter basket that goes in the handle has some sort of way of artificially increasing the pressure. This is usually done so that you can use a coarser grind (ie: supermarket ground coffee), which wouldn’t otherwise provide the resistance needed for a 9-bar extraction.
Sometimes these filter baskets only have a couple of holes in them, but I think sometimes they might have some sort of rubber disk thing? If it’s blocking it completely…. Then it’s probably the backflush disk (used when you clean the machine).
Do you have any filter baskets with lots of holes - or just this one?
If you had a coffee grinder (even a hand one), and a proper (non-pressurised) filter basket for the machine - I’d say: have a go.
I would say that you’ll have to figure out how much liquid each “cup” button gives you, so you can figure out your ratios of dose-in to dose-out….. assuming it’s not just a timer?
If you don’t have a grinder (and don’t want to buy one) then you’re stuck with pre-ground coffee…. I would probably stick to you current setup (stovetop and aeropress).
Hi Richard,
That kind of machine uses a special portafilter that has a pin hole in it to create a coffee with a “crema like” head. You are spot on about it not coping with fine coffee, they are really only suited to pre-ground stuff you get in supermarkets and for people who don’t have their own coffee grinder.
Description says 19bar of pressure! That is a lot more than in more expensive machines that can vary from 4 to 9 typically with very fine coffee to create the pressure for extraction. Sometimes they are compatible with certain pods but it’s expensive.
Personally I would stick with the Moka pot. What kind of coffee do you like and how much faff can you cope with?
Yes, it's defo the pin hole portafilter.
Don't worry, it's not serious plans. Just the machine is sat there unused now. Just something to play about with rather than put into daily use.
I don't think there's any other basket knocking about. I guess the experiment would be to get hold of a basket and some fine ground coffee and see how it goes. Probably not worth it!
I was wondering if spending £x and a bit of tinkering might make an acceptable unit and an interesting project!
More important step for me is to invest in grinder, not got round to that yet!!
You may be able to switch out the basket for a "bottomless" portafilter. I did that with my cheap DeLonghi which originally came with the same thing yours has.
Can't remember exactly where I got mine - it was just a cheap 51mm basket from ebay or aliexpress but you should find a match based on whatever diameter can fit in the handle/head. I also had to take the original handle apart and file off a tab that only fitted the base which was there to split the flow.
What having the bottomless portafilter has done is allow me to see when the extraction is going well or if there is a load of channeling going on - i.e. the waters found too quick a path through the grounds and I'm just getting a watery sour tasting mess. That's where I realised the benefit of having a good even grind and also how the 'WDT' process, aka stirring with a few fine needles, makes a difference to getting a nice rich well extracted brew.
