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Spurred on by the recent coffee threads on here and my increasing dislike of my aeropress I'm tempted by a "proper" machine.
Max budget would be £400 really and I've seen this which ink tempted by.
Is it any good or any other recommendations?
Careful now, or in my case, car full now. We've just arrived at our rental house in Brittany and the first thing I unpacked after putting the bikes together was my Gaggia Classic, Iberital grinder, milk frother (for Mrs BigJohn) and knock box.
But while waiting for it to warm up I checked I can fit a baguette in the bottle cage for tomorrow breakfast.
So you can get a bit carried away with the whole coffee thing. Although Mrs BigJohn is ok with packet ground stuff here so I didn't have to find room for her grinder and beans as we like different beans.
My Sage touch is much better/more consistent than my Gaggia Classic.
Sage barista....not sure how much they are now, I love mine though.
I moved from a gaggia classic to a sage barista, less faff and equally good coffee imo.
Gaggia was a bit more involved, but that wore off when doing more than two cups!
+1 for any Sage plus grinder really. I have a Barista Pro from an ebay outlet which came in on your budget, ideally you would have a separate grinder, but it's more convenient and compact in one.
Lelit Anita maybe a wee bit above your budget or a Rancilio Silvia secondhand from me like new for £350 and would chuck in a De longhi grinder bringing it up to your £400
My Gaggia needs stripped for a bit tlc but it's easy to work on
Sage Bambino is discounted at the moment with a grinder as well.
https://www.sageappliances.com/uk/en/products/espresso/bep450.html?sku=SEP450BSS4GUK1
We started with a delonghi magnifica. That was ok but then junior trumped it with a sage barista which made great coffee. Junior and the barista decided to move out, so we bought a pre-used Sage Bambino and sage smart grinder pro for £220 all in. This is definitely a another step up in terms of both coffee quality and reduced preparation times.
Whatever you buy, spend a morning learning about 'dialling in' your machine - it really does make a tremendous difference. Aldi #3 cheap beans dialled in are way better than expensive beans done badly.
Always been happy with my Gaggia, had it for over 15 years now.
Sage duo pro is on offer w some other bits on john lewis. Have been really pleased with mine and use a hario hand grinder for beans
£400 will get you a Sage Barista Pro if you ask Sage nicely for a discount code (or wait for the next Lakeland 20% voucher to drop through the letterbox).
Mine is 5 years old and still going strong.
My Jura packed up a few weeks ago and to be totally honest I'm not bothered, and not looking to replace. I drink far too much coffee, always have. (I actually OD'd on caffeine years ago! I sht you not).
I've kept my Aeropress and my Bialetti but significantly reduced my intake, and my timing (never had issue with a coffee before bed). Early days but probably (for me) for the best.
Up until it died I was very happy with the Jura - was pre owned and made a decent shot. Of course, everyone will tell you, in true STW style that what they have is "the best".
Good luck!
Sage Bambino would get my vote.
I know there's a lot of love for the Gaggia classic on here - but I had a go on my mate's, and I just don't get it.
We went from a Sage Bambino to a Sage Touch. I would say the main difference between the 2 is the ease of use of the Touch and better consistency as you are not manually tampering etc
So in reality I am saying the Bambino is a very god machine for the money if you can be arsed with the separate grinding.
If this is a bit new to you, i'd suggest keeping a little bit of your budget back for a calibrated tamp i.e. Nomcore or similar. There are so many variables involved in getting it right and so i found using a calibrated tamp eliminates one of the most subjective and hard to repeat elements. The others such as grind size, dose and extraction time are easy to measure.
So in reality I am saying the Bambino is a very god machine for the money if you can be arsed with the separate grinding.
Grinding is separate in both, surely? Just in the touch the grinder is integrated into the left hand side of the machine. For me, this is a bad thing - it means you can't get the grinder you want/upgrade.
+1 normcore
the tamp that comes with bambino is terrible
better consistency as you are not manually tampering etc
Just as a side note, I bought one of these calibrated self leveling tampers to do away with those concerns. It's a bit like a torque wrench, it clicks once you've applied 30lbs of pressure and the sliding collar means you can't tamp on a slant. Never fret about inconsistent tamping again. A bit pricey, but what's the point of diving down the espresso rabbit hole if you can't acquire gadgets?
Grinding is separate in both, surely? Just in the touch the grinder is integrated into the left hand side of the machine. For me, this is a bad thing – it means you can’t get the grinder you want/upgrade.
Nope in the Touch you just put the puck into the machine and it grinds and tamps based on settings you can set, you have full control. We never change the tamp, but often change the grind based on the beans.
The Touch is something like 5 x the price of the Bambino though. My post was alluding to the fact that the Bambino makes just as good coffee (nearly) with just more faff
I'm reading this while drinking an oat flat white produced by my 2001 Gaggia Classic and rather more recent Sage Smart Grinder Pro. I wasn't aware of the Barista Touch Impress, but I've just read a couple of reviews and it looks like a pretty good option, with the convenience of bean to cup with the brew quality of a manual. The thing that would concern me would be the longevity - there's a hell of a lot of stuff to go wrong in there, whereas my GC is 23 years old and still going strong. Yes I've replaced a couple of bits, but it's easy to do and all the spares are available. The Sage looks much more of 'No user serviceable parts inside' kind of deal.
I've got a Gaggia Classic (bought manufacturer refurbished) and a Wilfa Svart Uniform grinder. Great setup, I'm really happy.
My neighbour works for a coffee roaster and puts all his money into a grinder. He doesn't even have a coffee machine at home - just the grinder - as he says he's used to the £10k ones at work. 😮
I really don't rate the Sage stuff at all.
Not to be controversial but I wish someone had given me this advice when I handed over 1600 for an oracle.
I'm now using a decent grinder and my oracle in single dose mode manual mode.
I'd be looking at that new cheapish Gaggia Espresso Evolution and separate grinder for that money perhaps.
Expect to go on a journey.
Just as a side note, I bought one of these
in the description in the link it describes it as “Female friendly coffee accessories” what the actual f.ck is that? Unless it refers to the shape…? 🍆 👀
Back to the OP: Gaggia classic here for 15 plus years (so the original version.) other than manually wind the pump pressure down I’ve done nothing other than descale it and it’s been faultless. Took a while to learn how to make proper coffee, but learn I did.
This is what I use. It's the most used appliance in the house 🙂
Delonghi Dedica Arte
As opposed the the Delonghi dedica (Without the Arte). The steam wand on the Arte is waaaay better than the older version.
My grinder is a Sage Digital Grinder. https://www.sageappliances.com/uk/en/products/coffee-grinders/bcg820.html
You can currently get both of those for under your £400 budget.
what the actual f.ck is that
A tamper for people with poor tamping ability.
Sage barista and sage grinder here. Use it 6 plus times a day, 3 years old
in the description in the link it describes it as “Female friendly coffee accessories” what the actual f.ck is that? Unless it refers to the shape…? 🍆 👀
Wow.
From the ad:
This makes it more user-friendly for women and beginners
😯
ISTR that the high priest of coffee* thinks that tamping pressure isn't particularly critical, and my experience would support that. Didn't stop me buying a very expensive tamper**, but mostly because I just like big lumps of machined metal.
*James Hoffman, obvs.
** Isomac
A tamper for people with poor tamping ability.
Yep that's me. I wish my barista skills were as awesome as yours must be.
Yep that’s me. I wish my barista skills were as awesome as yours must be.
I should really have said that differently, sorry!
I think a lot of accessories get sold to try and solve 'problems' that company particularly with blind shakers and spring loaded tampers etc etc.
I tamp using 4 fingers on the edge of the portafilter, it's pretty easy to feel the level and not apply a lot of pressure, but I understand people buying nice things too.
My coffees comes out pretty well, honest!
increasing dislike of my aeropress
Just wondering what the issue is OP? I love my espresso machine but if I was forced to choose just one method to brew coffee, it would be the Aeropress.
Just very underwhelming. I think my grinder is too fine a grind for it maybe (a dualit burr grinder)
Tried loads of different good quality beans but they are all just meh tasting.... Tried some of those same beans made in a proper coffee machine and the difference is night and day.
It's the scales that gets me, does it really matter if your one or two grams out?
I measure by volume with the original scoop, do different coffees weigh differently?
Tried loads of different good quality beans but they are all just meh tasting…. Tried some of those same beans made in a proper coffee machine and the difference is night and day.
That is unlikely to be down to your AP. Don't give up on it, even when you get your espresso machine. The Aeropress is capable of making very, very good coffee. It could be grind size, or dose, ratio etc. They are a bit fussy to get from "OK" to "great". James Hoffmans "ultimate Aeropress technique" is great to put you in the right ball park with all those things.
It’s the scales that gets me, does it really matter if your one or two grams out?
I measure by volume with the original scoop, do
That works, but you will find that some cups taste much nicer than others. With a bit of precision and consistency you can tip the odds so bad tasting shots become far less common.
do different coffees weigh differently?
Yes, big variation. I usually dose 18g and some coffees will be half way up the basket and some will be overflowing. Some are just a lot less dense and "fluffier" for want of a better word! Light roasts tend to be a lot denser than dark roasts
I should really have said that differently, sorry!
No worries 👍 I do know what you mean about the endless gadgets. I fall for some and baulk at others - blind shakers are a step too far! I can get reasonably good results with an ordinary tamper, but find my calibrated tamper is heavier, feels nicer in the hand and is just pleasant to use. I doubt it adds anything to the taste of the coffee though. I bought it initially when I was having loads of issues with channelling. Turns out it was using the wrong sized basket, not inconsistent tamping that was causing it.
Yeah - I'm deep down the rabbit hole and have quite a clear idea about what is/isn't worth it, at this point. I also took quite a logical approach of trying to standardize everything, and only then changing one variable at a time, while I was learning. Consistency is the key - if your puck prep/volume out is inconsistent, then it going to be really hard to dial in your grinder (which is your primary variable) for example.
Scales: absolutely worth it. Dose-out vs time has been my primary (but not only) method of dialing-in my grinder. Over-running a shot by even just a couple of grams can make a big difference to the taste (good vs crap). Also used for weighing dose-in (beans or ground coffee). Be aware that grinders that use "timed dosing" are hugely dependent on how full the hopper is. if you keep the hopper full, they are ok, but as soon as the level starts to drop, the weight of grounds you are getting in the portafilter per "dose" is wildly variable.
Timer: As above, really useful to help you dial-in your grinder. Most scales you buy (even the cheap ones) also have a timer built in - so this isn't an extra "thing" or additional step. I tend to go for 44g out in about 30-35 seconds (my machine has a slow preinfusion, so I like to run the shot for slightly longer). Over the course of a week, the slightly older beans at the same grind setting might be down to 44g in 29 seconds or so, and don't taste as good, telling me that I need to adjust the grind.
Calibrated tamper: I have this one (link) which is cheap and works well. As mentioned above, the collar absolutely guarantees you get it exactly flat each time, and the spring makes sure that the force you use is consistent. To be clear: you don't NEED this, but for the price vs a regular one.... it make sense to rule-out tamping (angle and force) as a variable. Again, consistency is key.
Puck "rake" or WDT tool: Absolutely worth it. These are super cheap (you can even just use a bunch of pins stick in an old cork) and make a real difference IMO. It's basically just a way of breaking up any clumps in the coffee prior to tamping, and making sure that the grounds are distributed evenly in the portafilter. Sounds like bullshit - actually works really well. When you are first starting out, "channeling" is one of the most common issues/results in the most bad shots. Just doing this for 3 seconds hugely increases consistency.
Spinny puck flattener/distributor thing: Absolutely not worth it. Make no difference IMO.
Naked Portafilter: I have one. It's helpful when you first start out to look for issues with your puck-prep (see above re: channeling), but really now the main advantage is extra clearance for bigger cups and easier cleaning. Nice -to-have only.
"Third wave" water: I tried this (distilled water plus added minerals).... couldn't taste the difference vs my standard Sydney tap water (which is very soft). Might be worth it for you, wasn't worth it for me.
I'm sure somebody will come along and tell me all this is nonsense.... but this is what I have found over the last 4 years.
conversely i made a conscious decision not to get down that rabbit hole and bought a jura E8.
i press button , it makes noise and tasty brown liquid comes out.
Had a delonghi magnifica which made decent coffee but after 3 years it needed a service/repair - and came back worse. I stripped it down and the same plastic actuator had snapped again.
I am also pretty deep in the hole - went from moka pot to Gaggia to Rancilio and now a Lelit Elizabeth which is probably not the ultimate endgame for me but it'll certainly do for a long long time. I'd never want an integrated grinder, for setup and maintenance and upgradeability reasons... but yeah, you have to decide if you want to go down this road or avoid it. The road that includes things like "spend as much on the grinder as the machine or you're probably not getting the most out of it" and all that. Flat burrs vs conical. Single dose vs hopper. My friends who haven't gone this way are possibly happier for it!
I basically agree with batfink ^^ on all points, except I've not bothered with a calibrated tamper yet and I make a little more of the naked portafilter because I get lazy about cleaning under the basket on the spouted ones and then regret it.
now a Lelit Elizabeth which is probably not the ultimate endgame for me but it’ll certainly do for a long long time
I have a lelit Mara and a niche zero - which is pretty intermediate (in my mind). I really WANT a La Marzocco (currently 15% off) or the new Decent Bengle (releasing next year) but I just can’t justify it - my current setup is so good.
I've just brought an (transparent) AeroPress and have a one shot Bialetti for espresso - go me 😜
@batfink sounds like we're at around the same point, I have a Timemore 64s for my grinder. The likes of La Marzocco and Decent and a few others are certainly very tempting but we are well into diminishing returns for the money by now!
Are there any hobbies where this doesn't happen? I already got to this on the mountain bike, I'm probably going to start doing it with woodworking tools next.
@batfink, are there any other calibrated tampers that you can recommend?
Sage Bambino here, with a Sage grinder.
Seems to be the right sweet spot in terms of quality / price and also faff / quality.
The Barista Pro is more or less those two units built into one package except the grinder isn’t quite as adjustable.
The most important thing though is learning how to use it and adjust to suit the beans etc.
one shot Bialetti for espresso
Standards: that's not espresso.
Can't believe it went this long without someone saying it :unsure:
I just today stripped down my Gaggia Classic for the first time to unblock the solenoid valve. I’m not sure where this suits me on rabbit holes, but its espressos are certainly an improvement on my recent reversion to Aeropress.
I have a 20 year old Gaggia Classic matched to a greaty little Ibertial MC2 grinder.
I am down the rabbit hole with a bottomless filter, steam wand mod to the Gaggia, dosing cup, levelling tool, needle distribution tool, dosing ring, small set of digital scales, rubber tamping mat, a tidy tamper, happy donkey coffee in the freezer and a big smile.
@batfink, are there any other calibrated tampers that you can recommend?
The one I linked to earlier in the thread, despite the comedy chingrish in the Amazon ad is really good. Heavy, well made with a satisfying "click" when you've applied sufficient pressure. The sliding collar makes it impossible to tamp off level. As others have said, you don't NEED a calibrated tamper, but if you want one it's as good as any. I does get good reviews online.
I've got a few "mhw 3 bomber" accessories. The tamper, a magnetic dosing funnel, a WDT tool and some puck screens. They are a Chinese company, but their products are well made and reasonably priced. I'd buy again.
sorry can’t post a picture, jeez this site can be flaky, aaarrrhhh