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Yeah, there can’t be too many of them with a -80 degC fridge. 😁
Nope nothing to do with temperature. I’m not a microbiologist, but speaking to one earlier it’s one heck of a sensitive vaccine and incorrect handling renders it useless.
Also it can only be taken out of the -70 temperature a Max of 4 times before being void.
Oh still expect to have a COVID swab if you go in for an operation, even after being vaccinated, and health staff are still going to have to wear PPE, even when vaccinated, at least for the next 2-3 yrs. this first vaccines are not a magic bullet
Like literally anywhere you can park a small ocean going ferry, or crane refrigerated containers off a deck. Hell, hire the Isle of Arran and deliver it to Gourock. There’s any number of ways around it, all of them more expensive and all of them more hassle and all of them cut into the refrigerated lifespans, they’re not good options. But they’d get the job done.
Of course, what you want is for it to be a simple bit of business-as-usual. But if we decide to blow up our business-as-usual for no good reason, as it seems we’re intent on doing, and lose all the good options, that just means we have to resort to bad ones, it doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
Says the person who has never had to bin a batch or product because they ran out of liquid nitrogen at the airport after the freezers went down or because some **** forgot to fill up the container with dry ice. Etc etc etc etc
You do realise that we couldn't even get PPE into this country in an emergency?
If Matt Hancock makes the covid vaccine mandatory I'll forgive him for everything... **** I'll petition to have a statue put up of him... because the tears of anti-vaxxers will put a smile on my face for the rest of my existence.
That’s ok, almost none of us will get vaccinated anyway
The merits of vaccinating everyone are still being debated, is think it's unlikely though.
As an asthma sufferer I'm apparently in the clinically vunerable group. Given I was missed off the flu jab list I'm not hopeful I'll be Included on the covid one either.
Did other asthma sufferers get offered a flu shot if under 65?
Hopefully they don’t entrust the tracking of who’s had/needs what jab and when to the work experience kid running Excel from 2008
I'm currently setting up the tracking for my local area - doing it proper, like.
And, yes, Excel will be involved 🙂 Of course it will - the NHS is powered by spreadsheets!
If Matt Hancock makes the covid vaccine mandatory I’ll forgive him for everything… **** I’ll petition to have a statue put up of him… because the tears of anti-vaxxers will put a smile on my face for the rest of my existence.
Seconded.
Cheers @ffja
Don't know why I didn't get a letter then given I'm on one of the brown preventative inhalers. Maybe you need to have it to a certain degree of severity to qualify, although from everything I've read anyone with even miles asthma should get a dose
Given it's probably the same list as for covid jab I will try to get on it.
@tpbiker my wife did and has done for a number of years despite having fairly mild asthma.
I think that’s key, regardless of 1 and 2
Sorry, I was being tongue in cheek. It would undoubtedly be cocked up by her - I should know: I used to work for her...!
Don’t know why I didn’t get a letter then given I’m on one of the brown preventative inhalers. Maybe you need to have it to a certain degree of severity to qualify, although from everything I’ve read anyone with even miles asthma should get a dose
Given it’s probably the same list as for covid jab I will try to get on it.
I'm also on the preventer inhalers and didn't get an invite for the flu jab this year. Queried it with the surgery and they said it was rationed by need first and I was a long way down the list.
Did other asthma sufferers get offered a flu shot if under 65?
All 4 of us here did (and all with quite mild asthma).
oakleymuppet
Free MemberSays the person who has never had to bin a batch or product because they ran out of liquid nitrogen at the airport after the freezers went down or because some **** forgot to fill up the container with dry ice. Etc etc etc etc
You do realise that we couldn’t even get PPE into this country in an emergency?
The problem with PPE wasn't shipping it, it was actually doing any sane preparation and procurement.
If the argument is "this government will **** it up" then sure, but that's not a problem with ports or similar, that's a problem with arseholes. And tbf we could have perfect seamless normal everyday port traffic and they could still find some way to **** it up so, maybe taking it out of the business-as-usual and making it into a real emergency measure run by adults not Grant Shapps might ironically be a good idea.
I’m also on the preventer inhalers and didn’t get an invite for the flu jab this year. Queried it with the surgery and they said it was rationed by need first and I was a long way down the list.
All 4 of us here did (and all with quite mild asthma).
I'm sure it'll be the same for the covid vaccine, it'll be a total lottery if I get it or not. I'm not looking to jump the queue ahead of any one that needs it more, however you'd like to think there is a consistent application when dishing it out to folks with underlying health issues. And give the nhs clearly idicates even non severe asthma is a risk factor for covid, I'll be pissed if I'm not eligible at some point...
The problem with PPE wasn’t shipping it, it was actually doing any sane preparation and procurement.
If the argument is “this government will **** it up” then sure, but that’s not a problem with ports or similar, that’s a problem with arseholes.
Getting the vaccine in, under a no deal brexit scenario will be very similar to trying to get PPE in at the last minute. It absolutely was and is comparable.
As I've said repeatedly, good luck finding approved distributors with enough capacity to deal with a no deal scenario hahahaha.
And if any of the thousands of newly trained idiots in customs are anything to go by, they'll probably open up the containers and let a springer spaniel shit on the vaccines.
oakleymuppet
Free MemberGetting the vaccine in, under a no deal brexit scenario will be very similar to trying to get PPE in at the last minute. It absolutely was and is comparable.
How so? The problem with PPE was that we were trying to buy it after everyone else stocked up (and after we opted out of the EU scheme that would have helped). It wasn't a logistics matter of landing the stuff, it was that other people had already bought it and so we ended up resorting to really desperate measures and stupid stunts rather than doing it rationally through normal supply chains. And of course, large volumes of what are totally standard goods will always go best through established processes.
Now, obviously, we could repeat all of that fiasco with vaccines too if we really want. But that's not what we were talking about. This conversation was the impact on ports of brexit, but the PPE issues were all under the transition period when nothing really had changed. We'd "got brexit done" but come January brexit will be doing us.
So, comparable? Can't see it at all. We face a totally different ****-up.
oakleymuppet
Free MemberAnd if any of the thousands of newly trained idiots in customs are anything to go by, they’ll probably open up the containers and let a springer spaniel shit on the vaccines.
Absolutely no reason why it should be going through normal customs though. By which I don't mean it should be just waved through, but that it can be expedited, have specific customs teams for vaccine cargos, etc. It's not like every cargo passes through the exact same process as it stands.
The only real threat to that is if infrastructure totally collapses to the extent that you can't even blue light a truck across Kent in good time- which I'm sure is possible. But, as above, not everything has to come through kent. There's tons of capacity which isn't at all suitable for normal freight but for something like this could be used.
It is similar.
In April we failed because we didn’t source enough PPE.
In January we will fail because we won’t have sourced enough pharmaceutical approved cold chain distributors to cope with a no deal scenario where increased stock levels and longer distribution chains are required.
We can’t just go shoving vaccines in the University of the Highlands and Islands decrepit 40 year old -80 freezers whilst lorries are diverted to Scotland.
But, as above, not everything has to come through kent. There’s tons of capacity which isn’t at all suitable for normal freight but for something like this could be used.
There’s Felixstowe, Royal Portbury Dock, Bristol, Liverpool, off the top of my head, for shipping, then there’s London Heathrow, Gatwick, Cardiff, Bristol...
Can anyone estimate just how many doses could be carried in appropriate containers in a cargo version of a 747? Anyone here seen Royal Portbury Dock, and the size of the ships that go in and out of there? A lot of them are car transporters, and pretty damn big, so I really don’t think Kent will cause a bottleneck, and then there’s local production in the U.K., which I’m sure must contribute some additional supplies that can be quickly distributed.
Can anyone estimate just how many doses could be carried in appropriate containers in a cargo version of a 747?
And where do you think you’re suddenly going to magic up those containers? Long lead items because all the rest have been snaffled up by everyone who else who needs to fly product in. You think Pfizer is going to be happy about their product being put at risk by being loaded on to a dodgey second hand container sourced by Sharma when it could go to a more reliable country?
How do you think the specialist pharmaceutical distributors and shippers will feel about the shipping delays and their freezers being locked up and unable to be turned around quickly for their next customers?
-80 is not a big deal. Its a bog standard long term storage freezer. Any competent bacterial cells I used to buy were shipped on dry-ice and then plopped in the freezer.
Every hospital has this type of cooling on their NMR machines.
NMR and MRI machines are cooled with liquid helium and liquid nitrogen. The magnets need to be at around 10K to be superconducting.
There won't be a vaccine for most of us until the middle of next year so I'm not going to get too excited.
oakleymuppet
Free MemberWe can’t just go shoving vaccines in the University of the Highlands and Islands decrepit 40 year old -80 freezers whilst lorries are diverted to Scotland.
Er, wut? I mentioned Gourock half as a joke, but in all seriousness Calmac has a spare/relief ocean-going ferry that can offload there and the terminal's got about 20 hours free capacity a day in even a normal winter. And it's 7 hours drive from Gourock to London, so why are things going into university freezers in your head? The UK's a small place, there's nowhere on the mainland that isn't useful for this sort of thing- the only time road logistics can be an issue is if, frinstance, Kent collapses into anarchy/flood/rivers of poo/triffids. Even with a daft extreme example like mine, it works.
In terms of really increasing capacity, delivering normal cargo etc then of course the main ports are the only options but that's only because of the nature of scale. We have significant amounts of excess capacity specifically because it's totally useless for those purposes... but absolutely suitable for unusual, time critical, small volume shipments. Kind of a self fulfilling thing- the reason they're available is because they're normally not useful, if they were then they'd already be running flat out post-brexit and therefore not available. We can't export marketable amonts of fish out of them but we can definitely import vaccines there.
(of course, air freight makes more sense, but air freight's going to be stressed everywhere)
Just to repeat myself, we were talking about the impact of brexit on Kent ports, nothing else.
Yes, there are plenty of ways. However, hpw many companies with spare capacity are there who are approved by Pfizer to distribute their products or who are compliant with pharmaceutical GDP regulations? The answer is less than you might think.
My background is chemical processing rather than medicine but seems people are talking about storing it on dry ice, a product that you can buy by the ton and transport in polystyrene boxes.
Even Chris Grayling might be able to do the logistics on this one (as no boats are likely involved).
It's even used as a cleaning product for industrial food production (grind it into grit and blast it against food deposits in an industrial mixer, the food freezes, turns brittle and the expanding gas blows it off). I know this is STW, but I'd sacrifice my weekly packet of hobnobs if it sorted this mess out.
Dry ice is great until your aircraft is rerouted or a lorry is stuck somewhere and people forget to refill it, causing a temperature excursion - happens all the time when that method is used. One of my first jobs as a graduate lab tech working in a biotech was to check the temperature probes for precisely that occurrence.
Er, wut? I mentioned Gourock half as a joke, but in all seriousness Calmac has a spare/relief ocean-going ferry that can offload there and the terminal’s got about 20 hours free capacity a day in even a normal winter. And it’s 7 hours drive from Gourock to London, so why are things going into university freezers in your head? The UK’s a small place, there’s nowhere on the mainland that isn’t useful for this sort of thing- the only time road logistics can be an issue is if, frinstance, Kent collapses into anarchy/flood/rivers of poo/triffids. Even with a daft extreme example like mine, it works.
Because it’s a short drive but rounding the lorries up to do it and packing it all on to dry ice will be the time consuming bit.
It’s a good thing that Scotland doesn’t have extreme weather events at the height of January and February....oh wait...
I’ve spent too much time in Pharma QA investigating too much outright stupidity to believe for a second that this is going to work without farce and a headline grabbing scandal under a no deal Brexit scenario sorry.
I don't think dry ice would cut it for more than ashort journey, sublimation temp is too close to safety temp.
+1
Let's see what happens. More vaccines are coming with readouts soon that are normal 2-8° storage.
I don’t think dry ice would cut it for more than ashort journey, sublimation temp is too close to safety temp.
Liquid nitrogen?
You need the storage vessels and adequate training/safety measures put in place for liquid nitrogen. More doable - but we still get back to my original point - for example Pharmafreight who are the last people I dealt with require an MHRA Wholesale Dealer’s Authorisation to allow them to store and transport medicines through their Heathrow site.
IMO we lack as a nation, adequate capacity in that regard (compliant distributors) to cope with the scenario.
It’s not just the distribution of the vaccine in its storage state (minus 70, in batches of 975 doses that need to be mixed in site and used within 3-4 days) but also the actual administration of it once it’s mixed into deliverable doses.
need at the very least: trained staff to give the injection, staff to direct pts, cleaning staff, doctor on site for emergencies, emergency drugs kits, enough storage for drugs/vaccine/PPE/ cleaning etc CQC registration, enough sinks and so on for hand washing, access to med recs for pts data and recording, adverse reaction and so on.
the logistics of the whole thing is difficult, plus the pts that are first in line for it (over 80 and care home) are generally the least able and mobile group and many will need to have a home visit (something this vaccine is almost uniquely unsuitable for) getting these pts to a newly set up site in the middle of winter is a tall order...
Every hospital has this type of cooling on their NMR machines.
NMR and MRI machines are cooled with liquid helium and liquid nitrogen. The magnets need to be at around 10K to be superconducting.
If you read my post the machines I mentioned are GM coolers which run at liquid nitrogen temps. That was kinda my point.
Liquid nitrogen is not 10k, its 80k. I know they need 10 k, but its secondary cooled with 80k nitrogen
Anyone else (NHS bods) on the vaccinations webinar that's running now?
I logged on for it. No new info. And the use of leveraged as a verb. Marvellous.
Accurate summary.
I quite enjoyed the same questions being repeatedly asked by those who didn't bother reading through the chat.
those who didn’t bother reading through the chat.
Almost every forum ever.
But will the slides be available? I was unable to logon!🙄
Here's a question, for those people who actually have medical knowledge.
The Oxford vaccine is apparently most effective when given as a 1/2 dose then a full dose. I think the other vaccines require 2 shots also.
What might happen if you had one dose of one vaccine to prime your immune response system then the second shot was one of the others. Is that likely to improve the effectiveness or would that just confuse the body's reactions?
Is that kind of combination or cross vaccination ever tested?
Am I in line for a Nobel Prize for medicine just for thinking of such a radical solution?
There’s Felixstowe, Royal Portbury Dock, Bristol, Liverpool, off the top of my head, for shipping, then there’s London Heathrow, Gatwick, Cardiff, Bristol…
Felixstowe currently has a capacity problem due to too much PPE in 40' boxes snarling up the quaysides!! We now have 5 years supplies according to some commentators!
Our cancer research institute is grinding to a halt because we can't get hold of gloves & pipette tips at the moment, due to government stockpiling & delivery problems!