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BBC reporting this morning that it needs to be stored at minus 80c, meaning you won't be able to nip down to the surgery for your two shots. You will have to drive to a regional cryogenic facility, twice, ensuring you go at the right interval and get the right vaccine if others are available by then.
This will have to be organised for a significant part of the population next summer before winter 2021 sets in.
The vaccine, once out of deep freeze, has a fridge-life of five days, then a further six hours out of the fridge.
They'll just use the current drive-through testing centres.
It would obviously be better if it didn't need -80 storage, but it's just another in a long line of hurdles for manufacture/distibution.
Hopefully they don't entrust the tracking of who's had/needs what jab and when to the work experience kid running Excel from 2008
In the big Covid thread it's been mentioned that there are likely to be other effective vaccines along common soon after this one. Cheaper, potentially faster to manufacture and can be stored at more conventional temperatures. The speculation is that many of us on the UK (no doubt across the world) will end up having one of the other ones that come along. Without bringing politics into it, I'm just a bit concerned that the government we have is really up to something on this scale.
I'm sure the NHS will do it's bloody best if given a chance to, that I am pretty sure of.
Let's just hope this and other vaccines are effective. However, just knowing this one is on the horizon (fingers crossed) is still great news, to me anyway. Hopefully it's just the first of many to come along.👍
The vaccine, once out of deep freeze, has a fridge-life of five days, then a further six hours out of the fridge.
This. It's an issue for moving it around the country, not for delivering it the people who will be lucky enough to get it.
What I found odd was the reported 5000 doses a day to be given - that will take years to inoculate even a proportion of the population
Also Universities hold numerous -80 freezers, which could be used as local holding facilities. It’s certainly a challenge but I don’t think insurmountable.
Just sayin,' like.
You can also use dry ice (-76C) to deliver store it. There is already a huge amount of scientific delivery done this way.
The patient will need to sit for 15 mins after having the vaccine. In current climate of distancing, that is a bigger logistical challenge than the storage issue.
There are going to be regional hubs with the correct cold storage in place, the vaccine itself will then be moved out from those hubs on a daily basis.
In most cases those hubs are yet to be built, but back in august it was known this would be a storage requirement of the vaccine, in fact back in August it was suggested it had to be even colder at - 120
You can also use dry ice (-76C) to deliver store it. There is already a huge amount of scientific delivery done this way.
Not so sure about that how do you maintain a constant temp, medicines management is t my direct area of expertise but medical fridges are not standard and have the temperature monitored very regularly to avoid even slight changes in temp.
BBC reporting this morning that it needs to be stored at minus 80c,
They’ve reported that since it was announced last week, it’s for transportation only. Once it is out of that temperature it will last 5 days in a fridge. They only need worry about the transportation side, which of course is not threatened at all by events coming up at the end of next month.
I am sure, given the roaring success of this government's other covid responses, that there will be no hiccups with this whatsoever.
That's ok, almost none of us will get vaccinated anyway
meaning you won’t be able to nip down to the surgery for your two shots. You will have to drive to a regional cryogenic facility, twice.
You'll get the vaccine at your local GP, we're the only people who're used to giving mass vaccines. Once it's made up, you can store it at normal fridge temps for up to 5 days. we can dose up to 900 people over 3 days and we're a relatively small practice. I think a drive through system was looked at, but the parallel logistics are too difficult to set up in the time frame.
The patient will need to sit for 15 mins after having the vaccine.
Advice has changed, allowed to leave now, but advised not to drive for 15 mins after...This is the standard for the routine for the flu jab, although most folk aren't told as it's so rare.
Is think it will be fine, I expect someone in the private sector, maybe the wife or husband of a minister or Tory donor can rustle up a business to deliver it sharpish.
I imagine 12bn should do it, this seems to be the going rate for jobs like this.
it needs to be stored at minus 80c
Must have frozen chips in it...
The mice will eat your vaccine anyway OP, I wouldn't worry about it.
I know of a dentist who is signed up to deliver the vaccine, she says that it will be administered in recipients homes, I guess this solves the waiting logistics....
Sounds like a whole new set of opportunities for cronies to set up and tender for super brass monkeys transport contracts. Millions to be made. 😀
I know of a dentist who is signed up to deliver the vaccine
huh, interesting, I thought the GDC were being "funny" about indemnity for dentists to administer it.
Some dentists already do minor cosmetic stuff like fillers and botox
The vaccine, once out of deep freeze, has a fridge-life of five days,
That'll go well when it'll be stuck in Kent for a fortnight.
It's just not an issue, there's nothing special about a -80 freezer, comes off regular power supply, no bigger than a domestic top loading freezer, needs monitoring but no more than the other fridges and freezers you might find in a GP or lab environment. There will be a cost to get them installed of course but you could easily put them at testing centres or a GP surgery. As said dry ice shipping is also very common practice and can be verified using a data logger in the box. Demand is easily going to outstrip supply to begin with so just shipping it on dry ice and storing at -10 for a day or two before slugging it into someone's arm ought to be fine.
J
(6 years in life sciences)
Seeing as the NHS can get my wife live blood products, chilled at all times with short(ish) shelf life from USA on a monthly basis, I'm sure they've got the problem solving skills to make this happen.
+1 on there being other vaccines.
The patient will need to sit for 15 mins after having the vaccine. In current climate of distancing, that is a bigger logistical challenge than the storage issue.
But it’s not rocket science. Even if that was the case (and it seems it’s not...) even a basketball court sized space can hold 135 people at 2m spacing.
Allow room for walkways and it’s still ~75.
75 people every 15 minutes suggests ‘sitting’ would still not be the logistical bottleneck.
Not to say it won’t be tough, just that we should throw our hands up at this crucial task being a hard one.
It is usual for vaccine's tube stored at very low temperatures so whether -80 or -40 is not a big deal here. The logistics of getting 40 million people vaccinated are another matter...
-80 isn't that cold.
Also as above it's one of many vaccines, this 1st one will be used by such a small percentage of the population I don't see any logistic issues
am sure, given the roaring success of this government’s other covid responses, that there will be no hiccups with this whatsoever.
Agreed. They'll get Typhoid Dildo to sort it out. What could possibly go wrong...
We’ve been told to start planning at work for our dry ice supply (or anything shipped to us on dry ice) to go out the window, which is going to be a major ball ache.
...though this thread is confusing. It was reported everywhere I saw as an RNA vaccine requiring -80 shipment from day one.
I can't speak for other parts of the country but when I got my 'flu jab earlier this year it was done in a school gym hall and they were getting through a lot of people with no issues regarding social distancing. Granted this will be bigger than the 'flu distribution but I would think that using other school halls, local authority gyms etc would be the best way to get through a lot of people. I can't imagine that it will be getting done in GP practices, at least not in towns and cities.
Some dentists already do minor cosmetic stuff like fillers and botox
Is this vaccine administered in the face? Weird, but I suppose if it works...
Typhoid Dildo
Anne Summers' worst selling product of 1905
Granted this will be bigger than the ‘flu distribution
It won't be, similar number and target audience.
The breakthrough Ebola vaccine is -80 stored too. Half a million doses given in central Africa. Also, if the logistics were only half as good as Amazon Prime, they could get from factory to clinic quick enough to never need -80.
I work in a research facility in a large hospital. As I understand it, our lab is one of the only places on site with -80 freezers so I'm imagining our freezers may get commandeered by the NHS IF the Pfizer vaccine comes to readiness first. I'm not sure how easy it will be to manufacture extra -80 freezers at short-notice - they're pretty niche items, and I'm not sure you can just make normal freezers and turn up the power.
The Oxford / AZ vaccine is supposedly more stable and doesn't require the -80 storage so if that proves effective it should be significantly easier to roll out.
On the subject of social distancing, the model may be that you drive / get driven up to a tent outside the hospital, stick your arm out and get jabbed through the window.
-80c is not really the big deal everytine thinks it is.
Every hospital has this type of cooling on their NMR machines.
It is feasible that smaller collers could be installed in the larger docs surgeries.
Physics is best summarised here: https://cryogenicsociety.org/resources/defining_cryogenics/stirling_and_gifford-mcmahon_cryocoolers/
Buy one here https://www.arscryo.com/closed-cycle-cryocoolers
And just google 'cryocooler for sale' there are many many providers.
There is a whole world of cryogenics out there that many of you are unlikely to know about, but its there and burgeoning.
The Oxford / AZ vaccine is supposedly more stable and doesn’t require the -80 storage so if that proves effective it should be significantly easier to roll out.
AZD should be OK refrigerated or in a - 20 freezer, Moderna is RNA tho so that's - 80 too
-80 freezers aren't that expensive & we receive samples on dry ice on a daily basis in work
OK for the UK, but not easy in developing world
commandeered by the NHS IF the Pfizer vaccine comes to readiness first
Sigh.😩
Some member of the Tory party will ensure that one of his chums at a logistics giant gets the contract to manage Just in Time delivery of these things, outside of the NHS and it'll be a huge success. Just look how well it worked out for KFC... 😜
That’ll go well when it’ll be stuck in Kent for a fortnight.
Not going to happen in reality is it?
the NHS is good at vaccination campaigns, we've been doing it for years and have the processes, trained staff and reporting structures all ready to be copied across.
Just buy some shares in BOC 😉
They’ll just use the current drive-through testing centres.
I think every man and his dog had this idea, makes perfect sense doesn't it? Restaff with Nurses / Doctors etc, do whole households in their cars, including the observation time etc. Use the resources we have in place already.
Last I heard the BMJ has negotiated £150m for GPs to do the bulk of it at GP surgeries.
What I found odd was the reported 5000 doses a day to be given – that will take years to inoculate even a proportion of the population
Yeah that would be verging on the pointless. There are around 600k clinical NHS staff, it would take over 4 months to vaccinate them alone.
For the record, the NHS vaccinated around 14m people last Autumn.
Anyway, AFAIK this Phase 1 they're doing with the Pfizer vaccine is only going to try to minimise the second wave death toll. The sad thing is that even if it does arrive "before Christmas" it'll be the end of Jan the first round of people will get protection from it. I suspect the Government will take the Spring/Summer natural lull to build up the logistics ready for a mass vaccination plan in Autumn.
They will claim a new system has to be set up though because Covid is special and requires a World Beating supply chain.
They'll ignore that super-chilled transportation happens every day without anyone realising, from large trucks to small vans with a freezer bolted in the back. It'll only be difficult to do if the govt make it difficult to do.
They will claim a new system has to be set up though because Covid is special and requires a World Beating supply chain.
They’ll ignore that super-chilled transportation happens every day without anyone realising, from large trucks to small vans with a freezer bolted in the back. It’ll only be difficult to do if the govt make it difficult to do.
Is that right? When I worked in a supermarket our freezer ran at about -40c (that was 20 years ago mind).
Is that right? When I worked in a supermarket our freezer ran at about -40c (that was 20 years ago mind).
Apparently so, several people who work in that field have posted on the thread already.
A lot of GP surgeries are not designed to cope with the large throughput of socially-distanced patients which would be required, or at least they couldn't do that and still help everyone else they need to.
Mass vaccination sites are the way forward, drive through preferably. I think Easter Road Stadium got set up for flu jabs in Edinburgh, and, from what I hear, worked pretty well.
-80 is a funny place to be in terms of thermodynamics and economics, the GM coolers I referred to above work at 20K and 80K (ie -253c and -193C) eg 20k is liquid hydrogenish, 80k is around liquid nitrogen temp.
-80c is co2 (which is solid and sublimates to gas, no liquid phase)
However for safety the -80c may well be cooled to -193c anyway as you normally go below your min safety temp depending on insulation/time etc - eg if you get stuff on dry ice, -80c is not your safety temp, its probs only -40. And as its piss easy to get to -193c because of liquid nitrogen it would not suprise me if thats what they cool it at.
So the issue of warmer temps = better may well be moot.
(I'm an accountant not a physicist, but I used to work in research depts and learned a lot about why we had -193c coolers rather than -120c which was the max temp we needed)
Is that right? When I worked in a supermarket our freezer ran at about -40c (that was 20 years ago mind).
Loads of chemicals, gases, scientific equipment and some engineering parts and equipment have to be transported every day under specific temperature and climate conditions. You just don't notice it as it's mainly done in vehicles that just say BOC or NHS on the side. While the likes of supermarkets have to keep food under a certain temperature and regularly transport it using temps of -20 or more some specialist stuff needs to be moved at a highly defined temperature, humidity or pressure. There is a huge industry built up around doing exactly that. You just don't think about it so you don't see it. I only know about it's scale from having contact with it through my old job, which was another job people don't think about or see even though it's in plain view. I used to deliver cash to banks, shops etc and the amount of times I had to explain what the van I drove looked like, despite it being armoured, liveried and usually parked outside a shop or bank, was unreal. I occasionally had to accompany deliveries of cryogenic samples to testing sites, universities or research laboratories as they needed someone with the correct SIA license present for insurance reasons. Experimental drug worth £10m+ going to a test station? Plain white van with a super-chiller in the back and me and the driver up front. Looked like we were delivering white goods to anyone else.
The infrastructure is there like it was for Test and Trace. But Covid is special so a totally new and untested system is obviously needed.
Loads of chemicals, gases, scientific equipment and some engineering parts and equipment have to be transported every day under specific temperature and climate conditions. You just don’t notice it as it’s mainly done in vehicles that just say BOC or NHS on the side. etc etc
Yeah, my 'Bad' I misread your post and for some reason thought you meant they could just move it around in Tesco lorries. I don't really know why.
The cyrogenic technology is all there already. EG LNG is transported aroud the world in huge boats at -160c.
https://www.wartsila.com/encyclopedia/term/lng-tanker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier
and in a van
https://www.cryofab.com/products/Cryogenic-Storage-and-Transport-CLD-CHD-Series
More
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/r0763?lang=en®ion=GB
the NHS is good at vaccination campaigns, we’ve been doing it for years and have the processes, trained staff and reporting structures all ready to be copied across.
In reality the processes are dated and the reporting structures designed for a world without centrally identifiable patients. Until the system has a robust way to identify individual patients its going to be a bodge, even more so if being used outside a GP surgery - or rely largely on people knowing and being honest about what they've been vaccinated against. That's not necessarily a huge problem but the UK are far from leaders in this sort of stuff. Lets face it there's almost nothing to stop me making a GP appointment in the name of someone else who is roughly my age if I know their address and DOB (and probably don't even need that) - unless either they or I are a regular GP visitor the docs will know no different.
-80 is a funny place to be in terms of thermodynamics and economics
its an absolutely standard thing found in most serious life science research facilities.
its an absolutely standard thing found in most serious life science research facilities.
I know that, it doesn't make it the cheapest place to be though. Liquid nitrogen is very cheap to make. All I am saying is that the low temp requirement isn't neccesarily an big problem that we can't solve with exisiting tech.
Seeing as the NHS can get my wife live blood products, chilled at all times with short(ish) shelf life from USA on a monthly basis, I’m sure they’ve got the problem solving skills to make this happen.
+1 on there being other vaccines.
I dealt with cold chain plasma products from the US, it goes wrong all the time and that's with starting material (plasma) delivered in massive batches at once.
This will be more difficult, given how the product will be packaged - especially with a no deal brexit. There's isn't a whole lot of validated cold chain storage floating about that is free for use and the government have not ramped this capacity up adequately.
its an absolutely standard thing found in most serious life science research facilities.
Having worked in academic labs and pharma, academic -80c freezers horrify me. Again, how many of those freezers in university labs will meet the requirements for storing licensed medicines?
I'll place good money that come Spring 2021 there will be a scandal in full swing surrounding the delivery of the Pfizer vaccine and Boris will be out on his arse.
I know that, it doesn’t make it the cheapest place to be though. Liquid nitrogen is very cheap to make.
It's also a nightmare in terms of handling and safety, Mr brexit voting village idiot employed on whatever hair brained scheme the government cook up will probably suffocate him or herself and half their colleagues to death using it.
I've worked in pharma QA far too long not to be convinced that this is going to be anything other than a gigantic cock up.
Loads of chemicals, gases, scientific equipment and some engineering parts and equipment have to be transported every day under specific temperature and climate conditions. You just don’t notice it as it’s mainly done in vehicles that just say BOC or NHS on the side.
It's not even that sophisticated in the vast majority of cases, just DHL/FedEx etc. vans carrying nothing more sophisticated than polystyrene boxes filled with dry ice. It you want to be really fancy just add a data-logger to the package. So, yeah, you're not going to notice it.
Don't worry everyone, Matt Hancock and Grant Schapps say they can fly all the vaccines in with all of those cold chain transport planes that will suddenly become available to the UK and the UK only. Just like they did with those facemasks that absolutely didn't sit on runways for days.
I understand now that temperature is the least of the worries with the vaccine.
Licensing laws are effecting where you can get it, only certain people can give the vaccine, the vaccine has to be transported, stored in a very specific manor or it becomes unusable
What I found odd was the reported 5000 doses a day to be given – that will take years to inoculate even a proportion of the population
Why is that odd its arithmetic.
60,000,000 / 5000 = 12,000 days
12,000 / 365 ~= 33 years
2 years=> 2*(1/33) ~= 1 /16 of the population.
60,000,000 / 5000 = 12,000 days
But there's no way that 60 million are getting the vaccination anyway so all those numbers are a bit pointless.
makes perfect sense doesn’t it?
to have a group of people going to a site who potentially have the disease alongside another group of ( vulnerable) folk who you’re trying to vaccinate against that same disease?
yes, I can’t see how that would be an issue at all...
I read the 5000/day being per site. Plus 300/day per GP surgery. Threes a lot of poor quality reporting around these numbers.
But there’s no way that 60 million are getting the vaccination anyway so all those numbers are a bit pointless.
I wouldn't say no-way.
All we know at the moment is that the UK is planning to vaccinate 20 million people with this first one.
If they manage to do that, it will reduce the number of admissions and deaths to a very manageable figure.
They've probably got a couple of plans on the table after that. My personal opinion is the cheapest, most efficient way, and frankly the right thing to do is to at least attempt to vaccinate every willing soul in the UK as quickly as possible in an attempt to eradicate it here.
The problem I think is that Boris seems unable to accept harsh realities, he may think that if he stopped the elderly from dying and gets deaths down to a couple a day, the rest of us will just got back to life as normal and we'll accept rare cases of long-covid and the occasional early death and short, nasty illnesses and maybe just maybe the virus will mutate to be less deadly, he's the worst kind of "it'll be alright on the night" types.
My personal opinion is the cheapest, most efficient way, and frankly the right thing to do is to at least attempt to vaccinate every willing soul in the UK as quickly as possible in an attempt to eradicate it here.
TiRed has been making it clear since very early on that eradication is a very unlikely situation.
My personal opinion is the cheapest, most efficient way, and frankly the right thing to do is to at least attempt to vaccinate every willing soul in the UK as quickly as possible in an attempt to eradicate it here.
In the same way that flu (that also kills a large number of people every year) is vaccinated against now?
makes perfect sense doesn’t it?
to have a group of people going to a site who potentially have the disease alongside another group of ( vulnerable) folk who you’re trying to vaccinate against that same disease?
yes, I can’t see how that would be an issue at all…
Don't worry, they won't be turfing out the Carehome and Nursing home residents to the testing centres, my Wife and her District Nurse colleagues will be administering those in-house.
I'm talking about the proposed/potential mass vaccination of the population afterwards. The testing centres were the perfect location IMHO facilities that were build and designed from the very outset to avoid transmission of the very virus staffed by people who will be by then, vaccinated themselves.
But it seems, on the face of it anyway, the BMJ want it do in GP surgeries, because god knows why, but £150m for them to work weekends is probably part of it, but in mu opinion, it would be more efficient to do it at the centres when you can have a far greater throughput and it doesn't need to be done by a Doctor, Nurses and Pharmacists already administer vaccinations.
In the same way that flu (that also kills a large number of people every year) is vaccinated against now?
No.
We don't vaccinate for flu that way.
I wouldn't worry about any imported vaccine, it'll be stuck in traffic jams and never arrive in a usable state. Just remind those who voted for Brexit of the fact.
Cougar
Full MemberThat’ll go well when it’ll be stuck in Kent for a fortnight.
People keep saying that but it's a bit of nonsense, specific vehicles can be expedited and even if Kent's infrasatructure pretty much totally collapses at times- which seems reasonably likely- there are other ports and other ways to get stuff into the country. Some geezer invented air travel.
It's a ridiculous situation but this isn't really that relevant to it.
Had the 'ordinary' flu jab recently. Drove upto to the the first gazebo and gave them my invite letter , drove to the next gazebo, arm out , jab, drove out. All within about 2 minutes without getting out the car. Quicker than a McDonalds drive thru.
In the same way that flu (that also kills a large number of people every year) is vaccinated against now?
Flu and CV2 are poor comparisons.
There's no such thing as 'the' flu, there are different strains and the vaccination is basically an educated guess as to what they think might flare up in the coming year. It's simply not practical to vaccinate the entire population annually based on best guess.
Also the incubation period of influenza is two days, for Covid-19 it's up to two weeks. If you have flu you're far more likely to be in bed with a hot toddy and a pot of horse liniment instead of wandering around giving it to everyone else than you would be if you were carrying CV2. There's less of a pressing need to vaccinate for the flu.
I don't understand why people still don't seem to get this. The reason CV2 is so dangerous isn't because of Covid-19 death rates, it's because you can be a carrier for a fortnight spreading it to all and sundry and have no idea that you're doing it.
People keep saying that but it’s a bit of nonsense, specific vehicles can be expedited and even if Kent’s infrasatructure pretty much totally collapses at times- which seems reasonably likely- there are other ports and other ways to get stuff into the country. Some geezer invented air travel.
It’s a ridiculous situation but this isn’t really that relevant to it.
So vaccine suppliers and distributors are idiots for being worried then?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54908129
there are other ports
like Felixstowe https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54908129/a >
ahh FFS I need to type quicker
the vaccine has to be transported, stored in a very specific manor or it becomes unusable
Yeah, there can't be too many of them with a -80 degC fridge. 😁
stevie750
Full Memberlike Felixstowe
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54908129/blockquote >Like literally anywhere you can park a small ocean going ferry, or crane refrigerated containers off a deck. Hell, hire the Isle of Arran and deliver it to Gourock. There's any number of ways around it, all of them more expensive and all of them more hassle and all of them cut into the refrigerated lifespans, they're not good options. But they'd get the job done.
Of course, what you want is for it to be a simple bit of business-as-usual. But if we decide to blow up our business-as-usual for no good reason, as it seems we're intent on doing, and lose all the good options, that just means we have to resort to bad ones, it doesn't mean it can't be done.
No.
We don’t vaccinate for flu that way.
Exactly.... that's what I mean. Flu isn't vaccinated population-wide because it's not AS dangerous to the "younger" part of the population so it's not worth vaccinating them. "Young" people get the flu, recover and have some immunity until the next mutation.
The same can be said of CV - the younger population (i.e. <50yo) is [generally] not affected as much and therefore doesn't cause the hospitals to overflow. There's diminishing returns on vaccinating younger people.
So we've established that
1. There are plenty of ways to store and transport at -80c
2. The mass scale vaccination capability exists across the NHS and its private sector contractors (GPs, pharmacies)
3. Just do not, whatever you do, give it to Dido Harding to run it...
So it's going to be an unmitigated disaster roaring success then..!
3. Just do not, whatever you do, give it to Dido Harding to run it…
I think that's key, regardless of 1 and 2
Oh yeah they could easily muck it up...
1. There are plenty of ways to store and transport at -80c
Yes, there are plenty of ways. However, hpw many companies with spare capacity are there who are approved by Pfizer to distribute their products or who are compliant with pharmaceutical GDP regulations? The answer is less than you might think.
Again, Amazon aren't going to be distributing vaccines any time soon.