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I had an email from my energy supplier, Utility Point, and it appears they, along with several others, are going out of business.
What does this mean for the future of general energy supply and pricing?
Great, just signed up to switch over to them yesterday. Anyone know if there is a cooling off period when you switch?
Had ended up with EDF after my previous supplier went pop!
Very marginal business, particularly if you aren't hedging against the kind of price volatility we're experiencing at the moment.
But that's the market that was designed when the industry was privatised.
Edit - to answer your question, prices will soften again when some of the plant currently under outage come back on line and the wind picks up, it's a very odd set of circumstances at the moment. What is clear though is that we will get more such squeezes in future as the capacity market hasn't worked to supply enough back-up plant to replace the closing coal units, so in general prices are going to rise. They were too cheap for the best part of a decade though.
As a consumer, you're fine, the regulator will transfer you to a solvent supplier.
As to the market "Wholesale energy costs have risen 212% in the last 12 months" say Octopus. This will continue as we stop burning cheap coal.
The people blocking the M25 are right - the government should be insulating houses.
You just get transferred to another supplier at no cost to you. We were moved when our supplier folded a few years ago (can't recall their name - Atlantic maybe).
This will continue as we stop burning cheap coal.
I didn't think coal was particularly cheap compared to other sources.
Wholesale gas prices have jumped massively as well due to excessive demand over summer. Apparently our LPG stocks weren't replenished this year, so we're heading into winter at the mercy of the spot price market.
Apparently our LPG stocks weren’t replenished this year,
Not for the lack of trying.
Couldn't get the cargo through the ports.
Wonder why.
Not for the lack of trying.
Couldn’t get the cargo through the ports.
Wonder why
Not sure this is the fault of Brexit - if that’s the inference? Fifteen years ago, I used to work in regulatory analysis for gas transmission at National Grid.
When we first started seeing constraints in supply of gas in general, we couldn’t even then secure sufficient inputs of LNG to the UK. I wrote a paper on this very subject for Ofgem.
Several other European markets had regulatory mechanisms that set the commercial price for LNG at a multiple of the UK SAP (Price). If I remember correctly, Spain had a multiple of 1.5.
In the scenario of gas supply constraint in The UK and Europe, Spain would attract the import of LNG rather than the UK. We saw that LNG tankers actually en-route to UK, would divert and deliver to other markets as their price was always by regulatory design, going to be higher than ours.
I’m not sure much has changed - other than the supply being more greatly constrained vs. demand.
My deal is up in 2 weeks and finding a new supplier was not as easy as in previous years.
No deals anywhere near what I was paying. Went for a variable deal for the 1st time so that I can see if pricing settles in a few months.
Very frustrated at this as I am with Utility Point and they owe me a chunk of money (from an overpayment they took from me). I have been chasing this for 6 weeks and had various promises but it looks like I won't be seeing it now.
What does this mean for the future of general energy supply and pricing?
No name companies will continue to come and go. This is nothing new.
@johndoh you'll get your owed balance money from the company you are transferred to.
What does this mean for the future of general energy supply and pricing?
No idea, but it does mean you need to change supplier. If you fancy a move to Octopus I can give you a referral code, makes good sense for both of us!
you’ll get your owed balance money from the company you are transferred to.
Yeah I am sure it will stay there as credit on my account, but I think trying to get it back out of them won't be straight forward. It's 'only' £100 so not a huge deal in my circumstances, but I was expecting it back in our account shortly.
Had been with Peoples for a couple of years, and they were pretty good value, but left around February for various reasons - the data breach was pretty poorly handled, and the customer service was quite patchy too - not enough staff I'd guess.
Sounds like left just in time. To Octopus, as it happens.
Prices have gone mad all over Europe, we have made it worse for ourselves though:
https://www.enappsys.com/gbdayahead/
Now that the GB market has left the EU internal energy market, it has left the day-ahead market coupling arrangements. The IEM day-ahead market coupling process with its implicit allocation of capacity on the interconnectors has meant that power flowed from the continent to the GB market at a much lower price. However, with the interconnectors now falling back to explicit auctions, this has resulted in extreme prices for capacity when the GB market is under stress.
They'll be a shake up in who many people pay, but we'll all be paying more.
Oof - this won't help. 2GW (equivalent to a proper big power station) interconnector out of service. If it's for a long time, and a 12 fire engine response suggests it was pretty major, this is really going to impact the market prices on cold, low wind days this winter. That kind of switchgear isn't available off the shelf!
Surprised this thread hasn't been updated for 5 days. I'm on an electricity only deal as we are on lpg and I'm just entering the switching window with Green energy. The 2 options that have come through are to go onto the variable tariff at an estimated £952 per year or a 1 year fix at an estimated £1,246! I did a quick check on USwitch and the best fixed deals are in the same ball park as the £1,246 so I'm letting my account flip to the variable tariff. This ties in with the advice given on the radio yesterday as the price cap gives some protection from rising costs and hopefully when spring comes and the current shitshow has blown over I can switch to a competitive fixed rate.
I'm powering my heating with bulldog spirit and sovereignty, so no worries here.
I use Oil and have an AGA...
I understand variable energy cost...
I have lots of logs and candles and a small generator.
Need a razor wire fence, a bigger dog and a shotgun licence.
I could live off rabbits for many years as they breed faster thani can eat them.
Brexit Britain..
One day they'll be a STW thread that doesn't defer to moaning about Brexit or Boris within 10 posts, I'm looking forward to that.
I could live off rabbits for many years as they breed faster thani can eat them
most trappers in the Wild West died of malnutrition from trying to live off rabbbits. You need plenty of veg too
Just done a panicked fix with EON at 20p/kWh. It's only for 12 months with zero exit fees so if prices do drop this winter I can move elsewhere.
Octopus almost managed to get me on their tracker that followed daily rates earlier this year so I consider this a lucky escape.
I had dropped onto a variable rate as it was cheaper than the comparison offers, but then they emailed to say they were upping their prices from 1st Oct (around 20.6/4.1 which I think is the limit - hard to find precise £/kwh rates for the price cap) and yesterday started the switch to a fixed deal cheaper than that with zero exit fees. Just checked and that deal is no longer available.
My supplier, PFP Energy, has gone now and I'm being transferred to British Gas. Deep joy.
I've now had the strangest email, from PFP, asking me to sign a petition set up to oust Kwasi Kwarteng as Business Secretary!
I've signed, because I profoundly despise the entire cabinet, but I never thought that a utility company would be so outwardly political!
Strange times.
I jumped from Octopus to E-On yesterday, got electricity at 19.5p kWh (24.87p daily) and gas at 3.kWh (26.1p daily). No exit fees. Had a look today and that deal is no longer available, nearest alternative works out £700 per annum more.
Crazy times.
hard to find precise £/kwh rates for the price cap
Just look at the variable rate at most suppliers as they tend to track the price cap. The one I'm rolling onto is 22p kWh plus 23.5p standing charge and will run for 6 months from October.
This ties in with the advice given on the radio yesterday as the price cap gives some protection from rising costs and hopefully when spring comes and the current shitshow has blown over I can switch to a competitive fixed rate.
Bear in mind that the price cap on variable tariffs tracks the previous 6 months so the current shitshow will be reflected in a large jump next April. I don't have much optimism for many good fixed deals against that background.
I’ve now had the strangest email, from PFP, asking me to sign a petition set up to oust Kwasi Kwarteng as Business Secretary!
Probably because he's refused to bail them out.
I think our log burner is going to be getting even more hammer than usual this winter!
I assume Bulb are struggling too. They asked me for £170 out of the blue yesterday 'to get me through the winter'.
But I'm in credit, check the DD regularly, and our usage is flat anyway as we're on oil for heating.
Bulb appear to be on the ropes.
They’ve been asking for a bailout from the government according to the Guardian.
Ironically the government are hinting that they will now financially support the big players through this
I'm checking bills/useage every month now after a bit of a shocker last winter with everyone being home, and using electric to heat the shed office and the conservatory.
Checking deal sites, and it's at least £60 a month more, my current deal ends shortly, and fixing is £40 more with my current supplier. Going to stay on variable and monitor the prices giving monthly readings.
Gas consumption isn't the issue in our house (less than £40 a month at current prices) - it's electricity that I need to watch.
Checking deal sites, and it’s at least £60 a month more, my current deal ends shortly, and fixing is £40 more with my current supplier. Going to stay on variable and monitor the prices giving monthly readings.
Martin Lewis did some good posts about this yesterday. He is quite clear, deals now are not about saving money, they are all about damage limitation. If you are coming out of a fix, you WILL be paying more for your energy, the challenge is to limit this increase as much as possible.
As the big players are the suppliers of last resort, they will have to offer them some kind of support otherwise they won't take on all the customers from the failed small providers, which includes any credit balances that may be owing.
Alternatives are supporting the small suppliers, not sure why this is such a bad thing because it'll save a lot of jobs, or setting up a new government backed supplier company to take on all the energy refugees.
Ironically the government are hinting that they will now financially support the big players through this
If they expect them to absorb the customers from failed companies I expect they're going to have to.
Direct Debit guarantee - http://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/directdebitguarantee.aspx
Ask your bank to refund the DD's if they are holding your cash and no reply. I did this some time ago with an energy supplier that was on it's way to going bust & had useless customer service. No question & money back in 3 days.
Alternatives are supporting the small suppliers, not sure why this is such a bad thing because it’ll save a lot of jobs
IANAL but won't that just end up subsidising the end users to preserve their existing deals? They have a contract for it after all.
The upset from the small suppliers is that they just let them go bust but instead give the money to British Gas. I do appreciate it is a safer pair of hands but people losing their jobs will not see it that way
So we're effectively re-nationalising energy supply?
I'm with Bulb and have about 500quid in credit, ofgem say its protected (link below) but im still a little nervous. We are easily double the average user, wife loves the tumble dryer and the heating goes on at the slightest hint of a chill. This winter is going to be fun.
Alternatives are supporting the small suppliers, not sure why this is such a bad thing because it’ll save a lot of jobs, or setting up a new government backed supplier company to take on all the energy refugees.
The former rewards bad business models, the latter could be possible, but might also get messy, at some point you will need to wind it up or centralise to reduce costs if it's going to be a going concern.
So we’re effectively re-nationalising energy supply?
That would be the last last resort, but only the supply bit, generation and distribution would still be privatised. It'd be similar to the banks arrangement during the 2008 crash when the likes of RBS were nationalised.
Switching energy supplier was a job I meant to do 10 days ago before I went on holiday - looks like variable rate for me now from 1st of Oct! 😬😬🔥🔥💵💵
Yeah I'm sticking with variable rate, hoping the price cap keeps things under control and hope that prices may come down a little next year. The cost of fixing at the moment for what seems like a min of 2 years mostly seems to be a guaranteed way to have high energy bills for a couple of years rather than the 'maybe' of variable. I'll take the risk 🙂
I was about to jump from EDF but might just stick now on their variable rate.
Whatever happens, I imagine energy bills are going to be higher on average for a while yet to pay for whatever support the government are going to give.
Although Bulb are asking for a bailout, I'm sticking with them on the basis that if they survive the prices will drop at some point and I know it'll be passed on...
...maybe. But I do wonder whether these smaller surviving companies will now need to keep their prices artificially high instead of passing savings to customers so they can pay back the assumed debt.
I’m with Bulb and have about 500quid in credit
Id be getting on to Bulb pronto and asking for a refund of my credit balance.
I had to do this when pen I was with them and it was sorted within a couple of days. It might be a bit more difficult now but I’d not be leaving that amount of money to be moved to another supplier.
So we’re effectively re-nationalising energy supply?
Nah, just more taxpayer-backed corporate socialism
Ironic in the week that they cut Universal Credit so that poor people will be even less able to pay their gas bills.
“That’s why if me foregoing £20 a week in benefits – which I’d only waste on food for the kids anyway – can be used to protect the dividends of all those worried investors with portfolios a bit heavy in the energy sector, the so be it.
I appear to have missed the window to switch to a less expensive (not cheaper) fixed rate. I still don’t know who my new supplier is.
My supplier, PFP Energy, has gone now and I’m being transferred to British Gas. Deep joy.
I’ve now had the strangest email, from PFP, asking me to sign a petition set up to oust Kwasi Kwarteng as Business Secretary!
I’ve signed, because I profoundly despise the entire cabinet, but I never thought that a utility company would be so outwardly political!
Strange times.
Me too, I thought their deal was too good to be true and it was!
Now who knows what tariff British gas will be charging.
I'm electric only tho and have a tank full of oil.
Yeah its a worry, I've emailed bulb asking for a refund so lets see what happens.
On paper it should be okay but i wouldnt be surprised if the government give all the credit to serco for processing and they take 50% !!!
...I do wonder whether these smaller surviving companies will now need to keep their prices artificially high instead of passing savings to customers so they can pay back the assumed debt.
But then the customers will move to cheaper deals with other providers and they'll go bust anyway. Maybe that answers my own question about why the government don't want to bail out the smaller suppliers. 🤔
Bugger! I'm soon moving into a stone house. I can see the gas bills going through the roof.
Slightly tangential, but does anyone understand why tough times for energy suppliers results in Centrica/British Gas share prices going up 5% in the last few days?
…I do wonder whether these smaller surviving companies will now need to keep their prices artificially high instead of passing savings to customers so they can pay back the assumed debt.
It seems to me more that some of the smaller companies were able to offer artificially low prices because they didn't hedge sufficiently and now it's biting them in the arse. Offgem are going to have to take a look at their regulatory framework for new market entrants.
Also with bulb 😩
The people blocking the M25 are right – the government should be insulating houses.
Did anyone try and use green homes grant to try & get some better insulation? Tried to get our useless doors replaced, but the entire thing was an absolute joke
They are taking on 1m? new customers who will be profitable in the long term and may get subsidies from the tax payers would be my first guess
EDIT reply to British Gas share price
You just get transferred to another supplier at no cost to you.
Other than the levy that we will all have to chip into to cover the big players extra costs. A very poorly designed "market" with no apparent risk if the company goes under.
Gas prices since we left the EU regulated market have gone from £60 per unit of trade to £120. A dividend for the spivs again and @Kryton57 don't hold your breath!
I can see the gas bills going through the roof.
You need to insulate the roof then.
Does anyone have a list of the "at risk" providers?
I've got 40 days left on my 'deal' with EDF, they're currently offering me a 6 month deal that's a couple of decimal points cheaper than standard variable, which I assume is the cap, or worryingly much longer 3 year deals at waaaay more.
USwitch say there are basically no deals to be had at all, Money Supermarket offered me 2 way over the cap.
I guess we'll have to find the extra £50 a month it's going to cost us, on top of the extra £63 NI we'll be paying next year between us.
Haven't had a pay rise in 4 years.
Does anyone have a list of the “at risk” providers?
Pretty much all except the 'big 6'
There is a list in most newspapers
How about sharing some tips to reduce energy bills over the coming months?
These are a couple of tweeks I’ve done over the year or so which have definitely helped to limit our bills:
Hot water (save gas)
- reduce the flow rate on hot water taps
- fit flow reducers on shower heads
- stop using the bath
- reduce the duration the boiler heats water for the tank until it runs out every day then slightly increase until it doesn’t (we’re down to 15 mins a day now)
- change the schedule for hot water heating to reduce on days when demand is less
- turn off completely when away from home
Heating (save gas)
- use zone valves if possible
- reduce the temperatures in the day or limit to one area if working from home
- reduce at night and use thicker bedding
- fit window sensors so that when your partner opens the window then turns the heating up because the house is cold the system turns itself off again until the window is shut
- optimise the heating schedule on a day by day basis (so weekdays are different to weekends)
- turn the radiator TPV valves down (or off in rooms that aren’t used)
- keep the doors shut inside the house when it’s really cold
- turn off / put in “frost” mode when away for a day or longer
Power (save electricity and gas)
- turn things off when not used throughout the day
- turn on “eco” mode on devices where possible
- turn off the fast freeze setting on the freezer
- use less water when boiling veg
- use the smaller combi oven instead of the big oven as it heats faster / uses less power
- use eco mode on the dishwasher / don’t wash crockery with the hot tap running
Other:
- invite yourself round to family and friends houses, complain the temperature is too low and take a good couple of long hot baths whilst staying there 😂
I reckon the above saves us around 25% on our bill overall.
Has anyone else got any small tweeks to help keep bills down?
Has anyone else got any small tweeks to help keep bills down?
Not having a family...
Wife, heating on, windows all open? Because we don't want to feel stuffy do we?
Son, 25 mins with the hot tap running wide open when he "does his face" every, ****ing day.
Every light, in every room on, even during the day when we're out, or at night when we go to bed? Oh yeah, we'll have some of that...
Only boil the kettle water you need above minimum line.
Don't keep the giant kettle (water immersion tank) turned on 24/7 if it's heated by electric, schedule it to come on for a set period, for Economy7 users ~60 to 90 mins before night rate ends.
– turn things off when not used throughout the day
At the socket if they go into stand-by mode.
Kettles only need to boil enough water for the mug/cup being used for tea/coffee/instamnt chocolate.
Electric showers FTW, don't heat a tank full of water for showers nor do you need a power shower (they use around the same amount of hot water as a bath.
So youre moved from a low cost supplier think call centre /phones and desks to a large multi million pound company and of course prices are going to rise to their prices not lower to the low cost call centre,probably all the small ones will go bust, and staff sacked or made redundant all funded by the uk tax payer.
Easiest way to not pay higher costs is to reduce consumption, insulate, turn stuff off, led lamps,and more as detailed above.
Then just wait ttil a major power producing plant goes Boom.
Does anyone have a list of the “at risk” providers?
Pretty much all except the ‘big 6’
There is a list in most newspapers
You got a gritter for the salt to be taken with that?
At least one of the big six isn't doing too well and is losing generation capacity year on from now through to the next decade.
USwitch say there are basically no deals to be had at all, Money Supermarket offered me 2 way over the cap.
Going through comparison sites pushes costs ip for spoilers so not many tafiffs currently showing via this route. Go direct to supplier or use MSE Energy Club search as this will show all offers, including those that don't pay comparison sites.
We have a FIXED PRICE 2 year agreement with our LPG supplier. They have today written to us to say that they will be applying a 'special levy' of about 20% to all bills, despite the fixed price agreement. Inevitably there will be some weasel words in the contract we signed but I'm a bit miffed. How would they feel if I wrote to them using saying that in the exceptional circumstances of Brexit-covid, I'd decided to pay them less? Rant over.
Does capitalism work then? Or just for some?
@bongle which LPG supplier? We’re with flogas and on a 2 year fix which runs out at xmas.
At least one of the big six isn’t doing too well and is losing generation capacity year on from now through to the next decade.
Sorry, I know this is a few hours old, but unless the rules changed, where a company has both generation and supply activity the two have to be financially separated from each other to prevent internal trading and gaining an advantage over other suppliers. And I can't think of any of the big 6 that have fossil generation who won't be closing some of their assets in the next 10 years. It's not just coal, a lot of the major gas sites are coming to the end of their lives over the next few years.
Slightly tangential, but does anyone understand why tough times for energy suppliers results in Centrica/British Gas share prices going up 5% in the last few days?
It’s not tough times if you’re actually producing the stuff and selling it at high wholesale prices! Centrica still have some production via their stake in Spirit Energy. If their website is up to date they’re also currently producing the gas from the Rough field, which was previously used for gas storage but no longer (arguably one of the problems )
How would they feel if I wrote to them using saying that in the exceptional circumstances of Brexit-covid, I’d decided to pay them less?
They'd be entitled to cancel the contract and go elsewhere, as you are. Bummer though.
Leccy AND water saver: Turn the shower power setting to Low/Medium (not cold, Obvz) and reduce the water flow.
A friend in a chilly 70s block of flats uses Ikea summer duvets as curtains - up until now I have had fleece with slits cut in the top as thermal curtain add-ons (window side) but if I get time I may follow suit - staple or stitch the duvet inside its cover and punch eyelets into one edge of the cover, job done.
Sorry, I know this is a few hours old, but unless the rules changed, where a company has both generation and supply activity the two have to be financially separated from each other to prevent internal trading and gaining an advantage over other suppliers.
Whilst that's true the energy supply market means suppliers will have agreed to supply a certain amount years in advance, another tranche the year before and the last load on the day. If you can't supply what you agreed to you have to buy it in. At spot price.
And I wasn't talking about fossil 😉
Shitting arse bum looks like my supplier (Green) have gone pop. Guess I'll be transferred onto somebody's far more expensive variable tariff. 👍
Usefully, absolutely nothing on their twitter or website about it, phone not being answered, web chat not working.
I’ve now had the strangest email, from PFP, asking me to sign a petition set up to oust Kwasi Kwarteng as Business Secretary!
I had a similar email from Green yesterday. Obviously didn't do enough as Green went bump today.
Soooo the recommendation is?
- don't panic
- wait for another supplier to get appointed...
- only then shop around for a better deal?
Edit: answered my own question