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It's a bigun but a really interesting read:
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html
Seen a few of the Model S's at Goodwood this year and the acceleration off the mark is mind boggling and eerily quiet. Would love one but a bit pricey at the mo..
There will be more electric than oil powered cars for sale within ten years. They will also be connected to the web so how there used can be monitored.
This will reduce pollution, improve safety and I hope also take some heat of a major cause of global conflict.
I have just binned all the oil companies out of my investments
Unfortunately there isn't going to be enough power stations to charge all of these electric cars.
However hybrids will have the main market share
The Tesla power wall might be an indication that in the not too distant future electric cars would be charged via domestic energy generation and storage.
The Tesla power wall might be an indication that in the not too distant future electric cars would be charged via domestic energy generation and storage.
This, for my car use this and a sub 1000kg car with a 250mile range would work perfectly.
I'd have an electric car if they weren't so expensive. I looked at Nissan leafs recently. 10k car with a 20k electric premium on top.
paulwf
Unfortunately there isn't going to be enough power stations to charge all of these electric cars.
Not at peak time no. But you won't be charging all the cars at peak time!
The UK Generating capacity is, roughly 80GW (the difficult to schedule renewable part is still only 15%)
Peak demand (occurs at around 6pm daily) is approx 50GW
Average overnight demand (11PM to 5PM)is approx 25GW.
That means, for 6 hrs each night, there is 25GW of power availible, each and every night, that is currently not used (Powerstations are turned off, which is actually less efficient!)
25GW x 6hs is 150GWHrs of energy.
A typical EV has a battery of around 30kWHrs (including charging losses). 150GWHrs could therefore [b]fully[/b] charge 5 MILLION EVS overnight with little or no change to our generation infrastructure!
In reality, all those 5M cars won't be fully discharged every day, and so estimates are that in fact 20M EVs could currently be supported.
What will need improvements will be the local domestic substations and power distribution networks, because our streets and houses are not set up for this increase in domestic electricity consumption.
Finally, when you have a known and significant domestic load, such as an EV that needs to be charged to allow you to commute to work in the morning, small scale Solar generation becomes viable, and can be installed at commercial premises to charge employees cars during the day.
Electric cars that charge off the mains is not the answer, it's a stop-gap. Charging electric cars from the mains still requires power station energy production which, at the moment, will perpetuate the use of standard coal-fired power stations. This is something we should be eliminating, not encouraging.
The only way electric cars should be allowed to completely take over is when they can be charged from renewable external sources (which the UK seems to be getting further away from by the year) or when they become self-charging, via a mixture of kinetic transfer and solar power (from bodywork that is covered with solar panels), or other such technology.
There has always been one key, and huge, problem with the concept of electric car charging. In most cities (and I'd imagine plenty of towns) there are many, many predominantly residential streets with no off street parking where few if any residents are able to park directly outside their dwellings. As an example, where I live in London there are approximately 500-1000 vehicles parked on the street within a 0.5 mile radius at all times. Short of installing 1000 charging points on the street how would these vehicles ever be charged? Also, even if everyone was able to park directly outside, surely every pavement would need to be crisscrossed with power cables all the time.
Charging electric cars from the mains still requires power station energy production which, at the moment, will perpetuate the use of standard coal-fired power stations.
However, it's more efficient to generate electricity centrally and remove pollution fro city centres, so still a good step in the right direction. It also scales well for if / when we increase renewables.
Short of installing 1000 charging points on the street how would these vehicles ever be charged? Also, even if everyone was able to park directly outside, surely every pavement would need to be crisscrossed with power cables all the time.
Pretty easy to solve, there are power cables running under the street, so just need to add in some terminals. Scandinavian streets have these for sump heaters, you just plug in to the socket next to your car.
I have been looking at buying a new Nissan Leaf.
Solar panels on my roof are an added bonus to have extremely cheap running costs.
My main worry is low long the batteries will last in terms of replacement due to the drop inefficiency over say 5 years.
Lithium battery technology is improving all the time at the moment, so I'd expect better battery longevity will be available in a few years or so.
I can't wait. I was very tempted to blow a good chunk of my savings on a tesla but it would be a bit foolish at the moment. Electric car charge point is going on the plans for the new house build 🙂
Pretty easy to solve, there are power cables running under the street, so just need to add in some terminals. Scandinavian streets have these for sump heaters, you just plug in to the socket next to your car.
That would be an extraordinarily vast, disruptive, and no doubt extremely expensive project to embark on though. According to numbers from a Tfl report published in 2000 just covering London, approximately four million spaces would need terminals! Scandinavia has a total of around 9 million private cars on the road.
The question isn't "How do we give everyone in a town a car charging point" it's "How do we prevent people living in towns buying cars"...........
"How do we prevent people living in towns buying cars"...........
Pretty easy to legislate against it. Two problems, 1. (most) people will never give up owning a car, 2 our whole economy is based on consumer debt based consumption, of which cars is a huge chunk.
That would be an extraordinarily vast, disruptive, and no doubt extremely expensive project to embark on though.... Scandinavia has a total of around 9 million private cars on the road.
It's no harder for a larger country to do it than a smaller country - we'd have better economies of scale, so it would be cheaper per point.
lucky7500
That would be an extraordinarily vast, disruptive, and no doubt extremely expensive project to embark on though. According to numbers from a Tfl report published in 2000 just covering London, approximately four million spaces would need terminals! Scandinavia has a total of around 9 million private cars on the road.
Pretty much everywhere I went in BC and Alberta had these too. It might be problematic in London but not insurmountable. Just look at how often the roads are cut up for (insert reason).
I think small engined hybrids will be the way to go in the near future. The technology is still in it's infancy. We're already at the point where we can easily get 150bhp from a 1.0ltr engine weighing 90kg. Couple that to an electric motor, regenerative braking, regenerative suspension and sub 1000kg , you'd have a great car.
I quite fancied a hybrid next, but after speaking to a couple of people who already have them they're not reporting much better MPG than decent diesel car. makes sense really - it takes a set amount of energy to get a car from A to B and even in a hybrid the overwhelming majority of the electric power is generated from fuel so over time you're going to be using the same amount of fuel as you would anyway.. Also until they sort out batteries they're not any better for the environment - all that mining of precious metals from obscure places around the world, complicated and toxic chemical processing, ferrying it all around the world several times all for a battery that needs replacing every 6 years or so, then you;re into the spent battery recycling issue. The best option is to remove the battery from the car altogether and have network of vehicles that draw power as they go - like dogems.
Doable in large cities where people live and work within the city boundaries, but for us country bumpkins I can't see them being feasible. Depends why you're doing it - to improve air quality in towns and cities thy make sense, but for overall cradle to grave/total lifecycle impact on the environment I think the jury's still out.
Your not going to start with the iphone6 of leccy cars, we have the one with seperate battery only used by dealers and bankers and the 3210 to get through first.
From the benchmarking I have done so far on electric cars they are truly awful from a quality perspective, we had a Tesla in that was £106k on the road and the VW Up is a mush better quality car than that. I am not convinced electric is the way forward as yet and the costs involved with the powertrains are leading to very poor quality with the fit and finish, touch and feel quality and also the material quality.
[quote="wilburt"]I have just binned all the oil companies out of my investments
That's a bit daft, most (not all) are heavily (billions of dollars) into alternative energy.
Unless you're waiting for everyone else to dump, then buy up shares at pennies each......
We are starting with iPhone 6 levels of tech regarding the batteries in terms of the type of batteries used in car are the same Lithium Ion battery technology matured in the development and use in iPhone 6's and other devices. In computers and smart devices we've been able to extend battery life mainly through better and more efficient use of how the devices consume power. Opportunity to do that with a car will be more limited. Not much you can do with an electric motor, or an electric heater or A/C compressor.
One of my customers has just taken delivery of a new Tesla S. Its highly specked out with rear facing seats that just clip into the boot space. Under the bonnet is just another boot space. Pop out door handles, power plug in is part of rear light. A4 sized display for sat nav etc.
He uses it for his 120 mile trip to work and back. Price around 50K although he recons the government give him some tax relief.
I have my name down on it when its only worth 10K 😯
Nissan leaf owner here.. We've got one on a PCP, works out at £4240 for 2 years. With a fuel saving of 80% and no maintanence it costs the same to run a brand new car as it did to keep my 10 year old Multipla maintained, fueled and taxed..
We've solar panels too and that's without this in the equation.. I have to say that it's a fab car!
My main worry is low long the batteries will last in terms of replacement
Which is why Renault sell you the car, but only lease the battery. When it fades you get another. Great for the owner, not sure about how that dents the green credentials.
I know one guy with a Tesla, one with the BMW i8. The BMW is a better solution to th electric issue. Now if you could replace the engine/generator with something efficient, you would be onto a winner.
Like Jaguar and the C-X75. Electric power, and 2 jets to charge the battery. Why not?
I was thinking about the whole battery recharging issue and think I've come up with a good solution. You buy the car but lease a battery from a company like for example Esso and when your battery is getting low you just nip into a garage and they replace it with a fully charged one.
That way the infrastructure stays pretty much the same except for how you pay for fuel as that could be more like a mobile phone with price plans according to usage. You could even have a pay as you go for those who use their cars infrequently.
Double post. Sorry.
[i]2 our whole economy is based on consumer debt based consumption, of which cars is a huge chunk.[/i]
Yeap, [i]they[/i] want Joe P to pay with as much finance as possible. Bankers aint doing the work they like to, unless they've leveraged each one of us to the hilt!
[i]Which is why Renault sell you the car, but only lease the battery.[/i]
At which point the owner of the car becomes an endless income stream for the vendor of the batteries, on a monthly lease basis. Nice (for someone)! Extrapolate that scenario and you see customers being told they can't have a replacement battery until performance has dropped below 50% of original, so for some time the owner of the car won't be "[i]enjoying[/i]" the full range capability of their car with a new battery.
Electric cars are a red herring, which, judging by this thread, the public are swallowing hook, line and socket.
The developed world already has sufficient infrastructure in/on the ground to transport, store and distribute liquid fuels. Liquid fuels are the technology to which future, private vehicular transport should look for it's fuel.
imo.
I have just binned all the oil companies out of my investments
I was just thinking it must be a good time to buy, sentiment at an all time low, plus we're not transitioning to an oil free world economy any time soon. Oil prices will be back above $100 a barrel within a few years.
Electric cars can make use of all fuel types- fossil, nuclear or renewable. And we have a nationwide network for distributing it called the national grid.
Hybrid cars are a folly. In the real world, none achieve better MPG than the best diesels. Tesla is the only company producing desirable and realistically priced electric cars (£50k luxury saloon is much more platable than a £30k Supermini) but others will catch up eventually.
[i] busta - Member
And we have a nationwide network for distributing it called the national grid[/i]
As has already been mentioned. The current configuration of the national grid does not support wide spread EV ownership. Hence part of the debate is to address "roll out" of hundreds of thousands of charge points. I've watched the installation of charge points at University of Warwick. It was slow and expensive and so in my opinion, impractical on a nationwide / pan European level. Even before one considers maintenance of a charge point network.
The current configuration of the national grid does not support wide spread EV ownership.
In what way? To me it seems perfectly adequate.
I've watched the installation of charge points at University of Warwick. It was slow and expensive and so in my opinion, impractical on a nationwide / pan European level. Even before one considers maintenance of a charge point network.
And yet many countries manage it fine for sump heaters. This suggests it's just an issue with the current design of charging station and not a fundamental issue.
In reality, all those 5M cars won't be fully discharged every day, and so estimates are that in fact 20M EVs could currently be supported.
Unless you drive as fast as your qualifications allow, then you'll discharge your EV in no time 🙂
makes sense really - it takes a set amount of energy to get a car from A to B and even in a hybrid the overwhelming majority of the electric power is generated from fuel so over time you're going to be using the same amount of fuel as you would anyway
Not at all.
It takes a set amount of work (i.e. number of Joules) to move a car (with the same drag coefficient) from A to B, yes. But how much actual input fuel that requires depends on the efficiency of the engine, and that varies a lot.
Diesels are generally more efficient than petrol in pure mechanical terms because they have a higher compression ratio which gives a higher expansion ratio in the power stroke. Toyota hybrids however have a cleverly designed engine with a longer expansion stroke than compression stroke - so they can recover more of the energy from the burning fuel than other petrols, and it approaches the efficieny of a diesel.
Also, due to how petrol engines are throttled at low speed, they are much less efficient at slow speeds. A hybrid slows the engine down by attaching it to a generator, to recover the spare energy, instead of simply throttling it back which wastes energy. And if you go slow enoguh it cuts out altogether and just drives on battery.
There are loads of other energy saving features in these cars. In my experience, on the motorway mpg is similar to a diesel (but emissions are much better of course) however in town hybrids are much better than diesel.
Re charging infrastructure - I'd imagine a network of sump heater plugs is much easier to install because it'd be much lower current than charging EVs.
In the real world, none achieve better MPG than the best diesels
See above - in town, I bet they do, but even if not they are cleaner.
Driverless cars. You won't have to bother buying, parking and charging a car, just tap your phone when you need one to turn up at the door, charged, serviced and ready to go. If you need to drive to work, order a wee car, or share a ride in an automated taxi service. If you want to go to the trail centre at the weekend, just order a driverless van, or automatically share a ride with other people heading to the same place.
Fewer cars on the road, used more efficiently, and a much safer cycling environment.
big issue, is the scarcity of rare earth metals, the fact they are non-renewable and the energy input in the initial extraction and processing, the signifiacnt envioenmental imapct of the mining in places like china and the very poor recycling and recovery rates not even taking into account the cost of the technology to extract and re-process. the answer can not be batteries in the long term as it unsustainable, but it can be a gateway to other technologies such as hydrogen cells
Diesels are generally more efficient than petrol in pure mechanical terms because they have a higher compression ratio which gives a higher expansion ratio in the power stroke
Diesel also has 10% more joules per litre than Petrol.
TBH I don't see it happening until ranges can get up to the same as a petrol ~400 miles.
Cold weather performance needs sorting also, this had me laughing:-
"However, if your EV is stored in a warm garage, that can mitigate the range loss, especially if you preheat the cabin while still attached to the mains."
Won't the car be obsolete once personal transportation drones take off? No more cars on roads means we can get rid of the roads. No more roads means we can get rid of the roadies.
Mountain biking wins!
Some interesting debate. I hadn't considered on street parking and the infrastrucutre necessary in such situations.. As noted above the cold weather performance needs sorting too - probably not going to fare well in the North during Winter!
Diesel also has 10% more joules per litre than Petrol.
Yes, but it also can take a lot more energy to produce, depending on a few things.
the answer can not be batteries in the long term
Current batteries, no. Flow batteries, maybe.. you just empty a tank of reacted solution and fill two more tanks of reagents, off you go.
Driverless cars. You won't have to bother buying, parking and charging a car, just tap your phone when you need one to turn up at the door, charged, serviced and ready to go. If you need to drive to work, order a wee car, or share a ride in an automated taxi service. If you want to go to the trail centre at the weekend, just order a driverless van, or automatically share a ride with other people heading to the same place.
Fewer cars on the road, used more efficiently, and a much safer cycling environment.
This. I'm optimistic that the next generation will see paying a lot of money for something that spends 95% of its time sat taking up space as bonkers, when you can just treat it as a service instead.
Yes, but it also can take a lot more energy to produce,
Eh, really? I was under the impression that it takes less refining and less crude is required/ltr.
TBH I don't see it happening until ranges can get up to the same as a petrol ~400 miles.
I'm amazed that people still fixate on range like this as if it's a huge issue, it really really isn't
average journey distance is a lot smaller for most vehicles (in fact the majority) and these can easily be handled with much lower ranges, even <100 miles in a lot of cases.
And yes I know that some people need longer range, and that's fine too, it doesn't have to be an either/or scenario, those that need longer range can still use conventional vehicles, or future longer range models with bigger capacity batteries, or can be catered for with quick-swap batteries or re-fillable batteries, but that doens't mean that the vast majority of cars that are used for (often single occupant) personal transportation over short distances around urban areas can't be replaced with cleaner, lighter more efficient EVs or hybrids.
FWIW, 400 miles is over a months usage for our household, and for a lot of city dwellers their cars only ever do 10-50 miles a day, if that, and cities are arguably where we should be looking to replace the dirty inefficient smog causing vehicles, even if you ignore ALL the other arguments on air quality grounds alone it makes sense.
Flow batteries, maybe.. you just empty a tank of reacted solution and fill two more tanks of reagents, off you go.
Pah I'll believe it when I see it.
Pah I'll believe it when I see it.
said people since forever, about everything new 🙂
average journey distance is a lot smaller for most vehicles
Of course they are but if you only have one car it needs to be capable of the long drive to France on holiday, or to Uncle Bobs the other side of the country etc. Very few people are going to be happy parting with their old petrol that could, for a new car that can't. People expect to see progress.
Of course they are but if you only have one car it needs to be capable of the long drive to France
no it doesn't, that's part of the problem.
people buying cars for the 1% of use cases not the 99%
but that's a whole other discussion on behaviour and infrastructure change right there.
If you only have 1 car* and regularly need to make long journeys then you fall into the 'and that's ok' camp and you can keep it, I'm not talking about edge cases, we're talking about the big majority.
Have a proper think about how many people you know and see who already have more than one car, often a small runabout for city and town use, and a bigger one for weekend or infrequent trips, it's quite common.
Why not push to replace the town runabouts with EVs/hybrids? **
Why not consider NOT lugging around the extra weight and inefficiency of a big depreciating asset for 50 weeks of the year and hire a big car for the holiday?
It's not about how wrong we currently do it, but about how right we could do it, and if the only argument against it is because it might be a bit awkward to change your ways, then that's not really a good argument long term for a society, we're too fixated on the cost and potential inconvenience to get behind the benefits, and personally I find that a bit sad.
Lets face it, at the moment it's all about money, if it either became massively cheaper to go electric or massively more expensive to not via emission legislation, then people would be jumping over in their droves despite the range non-issue.
* we do and I pretty much refuse to use it for any journey under 10 miles, if I needed one purely for short trips I would absolutely want to do it with an EV if possible rather than use our big estate, sadly it is the cost that would put me off at the moment, but that's a matter of scale to overcome and possibly with future legislation or restriction on emissions in towns and cities forcing the issue.
** this one would be a massive gain, even if we could get 30-50% of the town runabouts to stop punting out fumes into our towns and cities it would be a massive improvement, and would have zero impact on peoples ability to still drive to the south of france once in a while in the big car or a hired wagon (which would naturally become cheaper if hiring became a more widespread and frequent activity)
Of course they are but if you only have one car it needs to be capable of the long drive to France on holiday, or to Uncle Bobs the other side of the country etc. Very few people are going to be happy parting with their old petrol that could, for a new car that can't.
for some people, perhaps. I rarely do more than 250 miles in a single day- less than yearly. And I wouldn't waste my time driving to France when i could hop on a plane and be on the beach while the Mondeo would be still on the M25.
I'd happily rent something one weekend a year and have a little electro-jobby if the economics made sense. That's no bother at all.
But the economic case would have to be very strong to compete with a 13 year old diesel!
Eh, really? I was under the impression that it takes less refining and less crude is required/ltr.
This was in the news and on here a year or two ago. Enormously and tragically over-simplified, if you get 100l of crude out of the ground, it contains I dunno, 20l of petrol, 10l of diesel and a load of other stuff ranging from gas to heavy oils. So that diesel might be easier to extract. But that gives us a fixed amount of diesel. The problem is that demand has outstripped that fixed supply, so you have to 'crack' some of the heavier oils to make more diesel, and this is very energy intensive. I think they heat the reaction by burning some of the stuff they don't need.
Re electric cars, I think most people would be entirely happy to buy one as a town runabout - the problem is that a town runabout needs to cost £10k or even £2-3k used. Unless electric cars can be that cheap, people won't do it.
And you need a garage to keep/charge them in.
We don't have a garage, but we are leccy-car curious. We *could* have a charging point installed outside, on the road, and a protected / dedicated parking space. But it would be a guaranteed chav/dickhead/moron magnet. The local scallies have no end of fun with bins, skips, telephone cables, etc. etc. I can only imagine what they'd do to/with a plugged-in electric car.
Why not push to replace the town runabouts with EVs/hybrids?
Cost of the car, cost of infrastructure - as you said.
Just thinking of the most typical person I know who drives around town locally - she lives in a rented house, so couldn't install a charging point (although she could run a cable form the hosue as she has a drive) but about twice a year they drive to Sunderland cos that's where he's from. They can only afford one car.
I would have a leccy car in a shot if I had that much money lying around.
Hire car for the trips to Sunderland?
But
+although she could run a cable form the hosue as she has a drive
But it would be a guaranteed chav/dickhead/moron magnet. The local scallies have no end of fun with bins, skips, telephone cables, etc. etc. I can only imagine what they'd do to/with a plugged-in electric car
^ these have to be an issue though for the majority of people - even a driveway isn't really a safe place to plug your car in.
I would have a leccy car in a shot if I had that much money lying around.
Me too (I think), certainly to replace our second car [Golf] which does lots of trips < 15 miles.
Cost of the car, cost of infrastructure - as you said.
Unless electric cars can be that cheap, people won't do it.
I would have a leccy car in a shot if I had that much money lying around.
But the economic case would have to be very strong to compete with a 13 year old diesel!
^ all backs up my point about it being about money at the moment.
my question about "why not $DO_POSITIVE_CHANGE_X" was kinda to highlight that point, if you take the money out of the equation we have numerous positive reasons to make these changes, and only one (or a few at least) not to, money.
So if we could all agree that we have enough other reasons to want to do it then the focus becomes making it cheaper and do-able, but step 1 has to be making people realise that the benefits are worth it. Rather than focussing on the obstacles focus on how to overcome the obstacles.
Things that everyone wants but are expensive, often have a way of becoming cheaper if the effort and will to make them so is there...
Just thinking of the most typical person I know who drives around town locally - she lives in a rented house, so couldn't install a charging point (although she could run a cable form the hosue as she has a drive) but about twice a year they drive to Sunderland cos that's where he's from. They can only afford one car.
I wonder if, especially if we move to auto-drive, things won't transition more to a lease and service model?
Your example person above can only afford one car, fair enough, but what if that money was leasing a 'vehicle' instead of a specific vehicle? Small city runabout during the week/normal months, and then swap it for something bigger provided by the same company when they need longer trips.
It would need a big change in the way we approach car ownership/leasing, and probably a big risk and investment from someone willing to set it up , but long term it would be a much better format, and could potentially be a cheaper, safer and more efficient way to run personal transport.
We've already got a lot of people leasing cars, it just needs more flexibility to work.
Agreed a town run around needs to be £10k or less, as that's the price of a new VW UP or 1 year old Polo.
Compare a BMW i3 new is over £30k before the grant. And in the Autoexpress review it need to be filled with petrol 4 times to get it to do 170 miles, using the range extender. You'll only get 80-125 miles on electric.
The Renault Zoe is £18k before grant (plus £1k a year battery lease cost) and has a slightly lower range, down to 60 miles in cold weather.
So if we could all agree that we have enough other reasons to want to do it then the focus becomes making it cheaper and do-able, but step 1 has to be making people realise that the benefits are worth it. Rather than focussing on the obstacles focus on how to overcome the obstacles.Things that everyone wants but are expensive, often have a way of becoming cheaper if the effort and will to make them so is there...
indeed. was just thinking that the problems of the on-street parking brigade (i.e. me) are probably fairly moot at the moment anyway. With any stuff like this it's the early adopters you need to look at. People who can afford a new car are also people who usually have drives and/or garages. They don't park their car two streets away!
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.
The problem then is not the limited mileage but some of the other uses a car fulfils like social status and individual reward. These are problems for the market makers to overcome and as is how everyone gets a slice of the pie.
indeed. was just thinking that the problems of the on-street parking brigade (i.e. me) are probably fairly moot at the moment anyway. With any stuff like this it's the early adopters you need to look at. People who can afford a new car are also people who usually have drives and/or garages. They don't park their car two streets away!
absolutely, even if the problems for people without charge points were impossible to overcome, it doesn't mean we can't make big benefits with the people who can use them.
[i] amedias - Member
Things that everyone wants but are expensive, often have a way of becoming cheaper if the effort and will to make them so is there...[/i]
No doubt. My issue is solely focusing on electricity as the power source. When this issue is discussed I get the suspicion most don't appear to really consider the enormity or rolling out a national charge point network, domestic and commercial. The quantities of raw materials required, etc. In addition to breaking down and scrapping what we have in place, rather than adapting it for new liquid fuels.
[i] doris5000 - Member
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.[/i]
I can, regardless of how they're powered, I'd never want one.
As I said I'll believe it when I see it, as I've heard some crazy claims over new materials and batteries over the last 20 odd so years and yet most of the improvements are incremental.
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.
I can, regardless of how they're powered, I'd never want one.
imagine how much space we could recover when we can get rid of (say) half of every car park because the all driverless cars just head off to the next job. that's an extra football pitch outside every tower block and a decent real park outside each retail park 😀
I remember showing this fella window 2.0 and its shortcuts and moveable windows and him laughing sagely, "very clever, but it'll never be mainsteam".
[i] doris5000 - Member
imagine how much space we could recover when we can get rid of (say) half of every car park because the all driverless cars just head off to the next job. that's an extra football pitch outside every tower block and a decent real park outside each retail park[/i]
I don't agree, any space liberated as described will just be built upon, to crowd the growing population on top of one another, to prevent entering any green belt areas. New building in the UK is already ridiculously cramped and over priced, imo. But that's another thread.
However, your description of a driverless car reads to me as a taxi, a vehicle you hire for a specific journey as opposed to owning a car you are not required to pilot yourself, other than to program your destination, into the car and initiate the journey.
A fleet of driverless taxis would be a mare, would you want the taxi which had been previously used by someone who had been unwell in the car or in some other way had soiled the vehicle? Obviously those who ran the fleet of driverless taxis would, probably rely on people refusing such a car, to indicate when the car needed to be cleaned. However, waiting for the replacement may make you late for wherever you're going.
Just as an example.
A fleet of driverless taxis would be a mare, would you want the taxi which had been previously used by someone who had been unwell in the car or in some other way had soiled the vehicle? Obviously those who ran the fleet of driverless taxis would, probably rely on people refusing such a car, to indicate when the car needed to be cleaned. However, waiting for the replacement may make you late for wherever you're going.
Doesn't this apply equally to taxis we have now?
This is a good example of seizing on perceived compromises or disadvantages of new things while ignoring/accepting/rationalising the compromises and disadvantages with what we have now.
[i] MrSalmon - Member
Doesn't this apply equally to taxis we have now?[/i]
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Not in my experience. I've never had a taxi arrive with the added feature of a puddle of vomit on the floor. Furthermore, experience leads me to believe the driver would deal with such an issue before accepting any new business. However, I couldn't comment on standards of taxi service throughout the UK.
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Flow batteries, maybe.. you just empty a tank of reacted solution and fill two more tanks of reagents, off you go.
not that simple though is it, most flow battery technology is based on Vanadium, which again is non-renewable rare earth element which causes the same old issues.
for an idea of how damaging rare earth extraction is have a look at the reports into Bautou which produces about 80% of the rare earth elements used in battery technology and electrical goods.
if you own an electric car or hybrid thinking you doing your bit for the planet, you a deluded but well meaning buffoon
However, your description of a driverless car reads to me as a taxi, a vehicle you hire for a specific journey as opposed to owning a car you are not required to pilot yourself, other than to program your destination, into the car and initiate the journey.
Sounds about right. I'm mainly interested in getting from A to B, I'm not bothered about where the car is when i'm not using it.
A fleet of driverless taxis would be a mare, would you want the taxi which had been previously used by someone who had been unwell in the car or in some other way had soiled the vehicle? Obviously those who ran the fleet of driverless taxis would, probably rely on people refusing such a car, to indicate when the car needed to be cleaned. However, waiting for the replacement may make you late for wherever you're going.
i don't think that would be a huge issue - as you say, you refuse the cab, it goes back to base for a clean and the previous user gets charged £50. We have similar dispute systems with things like eBay and whatnot. But I'm not sure people really vomit in taxis all that often, except teenagers on weekend nights.
Maybe in the future they'll also have automatic 'vomit sensors' that can smell puke and act accordingly 😉
[i] tazzymtb - Member
most flow battery technology is based on Vanadium, which again is non-renewable rare earth element which causes the same old issues.
for an idea of how damaging rare earth extraction is have a look at the reports into Bautou which produces about 80% of the rare earth elements used in battery technology and electrical goods.
if you own an electric car or hybrid thinking you doing your bit for the planet, you a deluded but well meaning[/i]
Interesting, I had always been very sceptical about the final result for exotic materials contained within spent batteries, but hadn't given much thought to the environmental impact of sourcing those materials in the first place.
Pieces of information such as this only go to further reinforce my opinion as it currently stands, that EVs are not the solution and not worth considering even as a "stepping stone" to a different tech in the future. I just see it as a flawed concept for reasons such as this one, along with many others.
Yes, fueling cars as the majority of us currently do, needs to change, I agree. It's just that I don't think EVs are the answer.
just to clarify, not having a poke* at anyone with a hybrid etc.. There is very good greenwash in the marketing
*well maybe a little one at the holier than thou pseudo eco smartypants that think they are saving the world, not that there are any on STW
Pieces of information such as this only go to further reinforce my opinion as it currently stands, that EVs are not the solution
I think an important distinction that needs to be made is that the energy generation and storage technology currently leaves a lot to be desired in both capability and environmental impact, but I think vehicles [i]propelled using electric motors[/i] probably are the solution, and it's important to understand that EV doesn't necessarily have to mean the current battery tech in future.
The trick is to find a clean, renewable way to generate that energy and to store/transport it if local generation not viable (and mass generation is pretty much always more efficient than local) as ICE is never going to be able to reach the same efficiency in terms of local combustion/propulsion systems, and also in terms of refining and producing the raw fuel, and dealing with the waste output.
Haven't read the article but an electric vehicle is on my wish list, we have solar and battery power for the house so the vehicle is the next move.
It's a shame the damn oil distribution industry don't spot the obvious solution to the range issue. If all the cars had interchangeable batteries that when you ran out you just drive into the gas station and swap it for a fully charged one. With racks of them on solar/windpower trickle charge ready to swap.
Or, given the auto industry not getting their act together then the racks might contain instant boost packs that just plug straight into the vehicle. Range fear is the biggest hold up to take up of electric vehicles, solve that and nobody in their right mind would really want to use fossil fuels.
I looked very seriously into buying an Ampera as my next car. It is a very comfortable extended range electic, with a small engine powering the electric and KERS giving a bit back. It's also relatively cheap compared tot he Tesla at about 25k.
It was a hoot to drive, amazing acceleration and a really comfy, quiet cabin. Even when the elctric motor was going, it was quiet. The only thing that put me off was the lack of an estate version, or even a hatchback. It was saloon only. If they fixed either of those two problems, I would think seriously about buying one again.
The standard battery pack is in progress, and has been for probably 15 years.
Too many people, too many conflicting design requirements not enough direction from those incharge
This was pretty much my original point. Like you, I still don't see any realistic way in which a solution could be implemented in Britain.No doubt. My issue is solely focusing on electricity as the power source. When this issue is discussed I get the suspicion most don't appear to really consider the enormity or rolling out a national charge point network, domestic and commercial.
What about, for example, when you take a bike somewhere to ride. I certainly like my car to be where I left it with all my clothes and gear inside while I'm away!!Sounds about right. I'm mainly interested in getting from A to B, I'm not bothered about where the car is when i'm not using it.
What about, for example, when you take a bike somewhere to ride. I certainly like my car to be where I left it with all my clothes and gear inside while I'm away!!
fair point, there are always exceptions. But stuff like that - camping for instance - is a 3 or 4 times a year job for [i]most[/i] people. So it would be strange to build a new transport infrastructure around the exceptions to the rule, rather than around e.g. the commute or the school run which many people do 200 times a year, or even the Tesco run, 50 times a year...
Taxi vs car-you-own.
Taxi? No, not a chance, ever. If I can afford to keep travelling around then I will keep a car. I have family to transport, visit, emergencies to do emergency things with, stuff I like to take around and use, a taxi model of transport is not happening. I can't imagine I'm particularly unusual here.
Charging:
The vast majority of city dwellers are absolutely, categorically, unequivocally boned.
Covering things with solar panels, yes, very funny. Suggest trying this with something as energy unhungry as an ebike first.
Battery swapping at petrol stations, also unlikely. Batteries are large, heavy, awkward things that are difficult to move, and require a lot of storage safety things to happen, so all those petrol stations aren't any use without being entirely rebuilt.
Range anxiety:
But stuff like that - camping for instance - is a 3 or 4 times a year job for most people
I dunno. I doubt I'm particularly unusual here:
Trip to inlaws, once a month, sometimes more, especially if the boys are visiting grandma & grandad for the day. 100 mile round trip.
Trip to parents, four or five times a year, 260 mile round trip.
Trip to brothers, several times a year. 150 mile round trip.
Visit friends scattered across the lands, several times a year, 400 mile round trip.
Holiday, twice a year, could be South of France or Scotland.
Basically, every two or three weeks I need upwards of 100 mile range.
Electric range doesn't cut it, and never will - in the foreseeable future.
However
IF I am a house-with-garage-owning sort, with enough cash to run two cars, I'd have an electric like a shot. Electric makes a perfect argument for a second motor which can't go that far and isn't always available and costs a big wodge of cash more than a cheap old diesel or small town petrol.
But stuff like that - camping for instance - is a 3 or 4 times a year job for most peopleI dunno. I doubt I'm particularly unusual here:
i meant 'camping' as an example of 'times you'd want the car to stick around instead of departing for its next job'.
i too visit the inlaws (etc) a lot, but generally i park up round the corner from their house on friday night, and come back to the car on sunday, having done nowt with it in the meantime. Range is a different issue, I'd say.
i can't wait for driverless cars. it's gonna be ace.
I can, regardless of how they're powered, I'd never want one.
You might not want one, but they're going to be so much safer than human drivers that the insurance cost of manual driving will probably make it unaffordable for anyone expect the super rich.
I would think of pooled driverless cars as "drive on demand" rather than a taxi service. You would simply schedule your regular car use in advance, so the car would always be waiting outside the house at 8am. You could pay a bit more if you wanted a car to yourself, rather than pooling your ride with other people on your route. If you needed a car for a spontaneous trip, you might have to wait a few minutes for one to arrive after you book it, but for most of us that wouldn't be a problem. And if you really wanted to, there would be nothing stopping you from buying your own driverless vehicle (the new status symbol might be keeping your own driverless car parked on the drive, instead of booking on demand!). I think driverless would just give us more options about how we use cars and how much we want to pay for the privilege.