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Fairly big install. 8.3kW panels and a single tesla battery for now.
Works out about £23k. Discussing if to reduce the size and if the battery is worth it.
We had a 5kW array installed last October and are waiting for delivery of our 13.5kWh Tesla Powerwall end of April. Based on my experience over winter I'd say if your house is unoccupied during the day then battery storage is a must because even if you use solar to heat your water tank, have washing machines on timers etc then most of your generation will go to the grid for a measly 7.5p per kWh (export guarantee with Octopus). Even if you have an EV that will probably be sitting in the work car park so you can't capture any solar generation with it.
Like you me and Mrs Uponthedowns work from home so our house is occupied during the day but even in the depths of winter there's surplus solar for 2-3 hours on a sunny day which I'm soaking up charging our EV but this will go into the Powerwall eventually. Having a Powerwall will also allow you to take full advantage of a time based tariff like Octopus Go so in winter if there is not enough solar to charge your battery during the day the Powerwall will charge at night on cheap rate for use next day. The Powerwall even looks at the weather forecast and decides automatically if it should charge at night or wait for the sun the next day.
With octopus of you have a tesla battery you can get the tesla tariff which has import and export of electric at 11p/kWh which should help on payback.
But i am still wondering if it will payback. Looking at 20+ year life span so i would hope it is paid back by then
Already had mine go from £79 to £144 when the supplier went bust. Best start saving to make it through next winter and another price rise.
@goslow this is doing my head in too. I wouldnt expect to find some actual useful figures in the dross red top articles, but I cant even find on the Ofgem press release exactly what the figures are?
Because as I have the ability to add up and multiply and as @simon_g says
Octopus make it easy to pull out your previous energy usage
then I'd like to actually work it out.
Can anyone actually work out, what the price cap ACTUALLY is? I cant find it!?
Standing charge and ppkwh for Gas and Electric? I dont really care about Mr and Mrs Joe Blogs and there 2.4 children!
With a big battery you could get close to 100% as you’ll have free leccy 24/7.
True
But, it would have to be a big enough battery and panel to take you completely off grid, especially in the middle of winter and if you were currently consuming £383 of electricity a month.
The long term way out of the energy crisis is to invest in these technologies as well as insulation, but for the vast majority of people its going to be uneconomic to do so.
Energy prices in Spain increased for us towards the end of last year after the electric company raised prices and changed from a 2 tariff to a 3 tariff system in June.
The new low tariff is the old normal tariff, the new normal tariff is the old peak tariff and the new peak tariff is the old peak tariff on steroids. No one actually believed the blurb that told them they would be better off with the new 3 tariff system - and as far as I know, no one is.
I can access our account on-line and watch our daily consumption - which does give you an idea of what to expect on your next bi-monthly bill, but since we're pretty careful already we really have nowhere to go in terms of being more careful. We do almost nothing electrical except run the fridge during the peak period and we already run the washing machine and dish washer (infrequently) before we go to bed just after midnight on the low rate.
Don't understand that, corporation tax rate in the UK is going up to 25% and it's 15% in Ireland? (Is Ireland not 'developed'?)
Must mean that tax breaks for oil companies are best in the UK or something
But i am still wondering if it will payback. Looking at 20+ year life span so i would hope it is paid back by then
No way i'd be looking at a payback period of 20 years.
Technology is advancing at such a rate, that in 5 years you could have a system thats twice as effective for half the price.
I'm doing a lot of work, at work, to look at these types of technology across 35,000 properties, spending multiple times the amount you're looking at.
We wouldnt entertain any investment that didnt pay for itself over a 10 year period.
Yes, and then I posted on Twitter asking for folk to list the frauds that were possible and what do they estimate the likely write-off will be by 2027.
Take the rebate 2021. Move to a Band E house in another local authority in 2022. Bet you it doesnt get repaid!
MSE:
Under the new cap, the rates on average (it varies by region) are about 7p/kWh for gas, with a standing charge of 27p per day. For electricity, it's about 28p/kWh, with a standing charge of 45p per day.
Thanks, thats more like it. Ridiculous that its found on a consumer advice website not the actual organisation that is responsbile.
Anyone moved from Pure Planet to Shell?
Think they've messed up the transfer as my personal projection is showing as £28,817 a year.
so I'm on a flexible tarrif with octopus, based on the last years figures:
2900 kWh Electric @ 21p/unit & 26p/day standing charge
3300 kWh Gas @ 4p/unit & 24p/day standing charge
that works out at £950/yr total which ties up with my DD of £105 and the £300 I'm currently in credit.
using those numbers up there, if I use the same amount this next year, it works out at £1350/yr.
when I looked at a fixed price tariff a couple of months back the cheapest on offer was ~£2000/yr.
am I missing something?
The average family in the UK is going to have to face the following increased annual costs:
£720 NI. (based on 2 people working on average UK income)
£75 Council Tax.
£390 Food.
£300 Vehicle Fuel.
£693 Gas/Electric
£800 increased mortgage payments.
Don't forget that if you're under about 30 and a graduate, your student loan repayment threshold is being frozen this year, which Martin Lewis reckons will effectively cost about about £110 a year.
No. The fixed price tariffs available are very high and give an indicator that the utility suppliers expect the worst for the next year.
Do you mean 13300 kw for gas?
You weren't on their best tariff. So your increase may be less in percentage terms than the headlines. My Octopus fixed ends in March. Current rates
Elec 16.2 per Kwh Gas 2.8p per Kwh.
Current fixes are higher than the standard variable rate because future price rises are priced in.
So I'm looking at a near 100% increase in April. £94 to around £170 or £175 per month allowing for being in a bit of credit at the moment.
Do you mean 13300 kw for gas?
no, i used 318 cubic metres of gas last year, based on what I could find the conversion to kWH is ~10x
1880's mid terrace 3bed in the sub-tropical SW.
I'd probably get a better return on mini-hydroelectric installed in my gutter downpipes than solar...
when I looked at a fixed price tariff a couple of months back the cheapest on offer was ~£2000/yr.
Fixed price tariffs aren't subject to the cap. They do their calculations with predictions on where wohlesale costs will go, and currently those are very high.
The cap has flipped everything on its head - it exists to protect consumers who'd fall off cheaper fixed deals and then get charged a very high rate if they didn't bother to find a new tariff. Now though the cap is limiting the max you can get charged so almost everyone is better off taking the capped rate rather than a fixed deal.
It's going to be very hard for the energy companies bound by the cap but who have to buy at open wholesale rates - when renewables are low (less sun/wind) and demand is high they can be paying much, much more than the cap rates. Expecting even more of them to fail over the next year.
it strikes me then that the cap is only beneficial to those over it, surely those under it are providing subsidy.
Doesn't work like that. It's a cap on unit and standing order charges, if you're above average use, you'll still pay more! And less if you are under.
It’s going to be very hard for the energy companies bound by the cap but who have to buy at open wholesale rates
That's what hedging is for. The ones that went bust already were small players who didn't have the financial capacity to do enough hedging, and got caught out by the disparity between wholesale costs and tariff charges.
Now water going up 1.7%
Ffs
jam-bo
Full Member
it strikes me then that the cap is only beneficial to those over it, surely those under it are providing subsidy.
You can't be under the cap. The cap is On the unit price of energy and the daily charge.
The 'cap' figure which keeps getting mentioned (£1277 currently i think) is the cost of annual energy use at the capped rate.
This isn't the Brexit i voted for. Where's the global warming they promised us, that's what i wants to know. I was expecting 15c winters and 30c summer temps but they lied to us sbout that and the 35,000,000 other thing. Although i think they forgot to type the brackets on the side of the bus.
Just need a run on inflation where it hits 10% them we really will be in trouble, as the millions of people scraping by with a £450 pcm mtg today will simply not have a cat in hells chance of covering a £1k+payment.
Be like the 80s again.
The ‘cap’ figure which keeps getting mentioned (£1277 currently i think) is the cost of annual energy use at the capped rate.
... the AVERAGE cost of annual energy use ...
Which is why it's meaningless as you need to be able to compare the unit and standing charges against fixed tariff prices as snotrag said up there. ☝
You can’t be under the cap. The cap is On the unit price of energy and the daily charge.
The ‘cap’ figure which keeps getting mentioned (£1277 currently i think) is the cost of annual energy use at the capped rate.
thats what i'd missed. I assumed that it meant once you hit the magic number, that was the most you could be charged in a year. didn't make much sense.
Under the new cap, the rates on average (it varies by region) are about 7p/kWh for gas, with a standing charge of 27p per day. For electricity, it’s about 28p/kWh, with a standing charge of 45p per day.
Crikey, my deal ends in May 2022, looks like Gas Kwh is nearly tripling, 12 pence extra on the elec kwh and a doubling of the elec DSC! crikey
thats what i’d missed. I assumed that it meant once you hit the magic number, that was the most you could be charged in a year. didn’t make much sense.
If only, my house would be like an oven if that was the case 😀
Be nice if the general public hadn't said no to every new nuclear site, given that existing ones are limited in the number of reactors they can put on them.
Next winter, pensioners are in the crap. Working families on minimum wage are up the crapper. The government have done a good job in destroying community cohesion so there won't be the possibility of a general strike (in order to nationalise, or subsidise power) to threaten the rich bugger's revenue stream.
Be nice if the general public hadn’t said no to every new nuclear site, given that existing ones are limited in the number of reactors they can put on them.
UK PLC has not had a proper energy strategy for decades. We've had successive governments fudge the issue / ignore it and blow hot / cold on wind / nuclear / solar for as long as I can remember.
As for gas storage, they decided to say a few million and shut down our largest storage facility as it wasn't being used much. The markets change and suddenly gas costs a fortune and we don't have any storage.
A failure of leadership / vision at the highest level.
For remaining energy companies, is there any publicly available information on when their current hedges unwind?
Would be interesting but probably deemed to be commercially sensitive.
I remember sitting in a Conference in Westminster nearly 25 years ago with succession of industry executives pleading for a energy policy and strategy that could be used to drive investment in things like infrastructure, training, skills. It hasn’t happened because we’ve had government after government with no real knowledge outside the Westminster bubble. Even the big investments in nuclear has depended on foreign investment and industrial capability because there’s not much left in the UK.
There was a concerted effort at the time to de-nationalise, even things like decades of nuclear waste liabilities. When projects got in the do-do, BNFL tried to sue their sub-contractors for their own incompetence - one of the reasons why Rolls-Royce pulled out of Civil Nuclear.
As for gas storage, they decided to say a few million and shut down our largest storage facility as it wasn’t being used much.
IIRC, Rough was knackered anyway because the geology was failing. Don't think it was entirely a commercial reason, although the safety angle could have just been a ruse to get additional funding for critical national infrastructure of course.
Its basically just kicking the can down the road, in the hope that energy prices will reduce in the medium term.
Unfortunately the general public are seeing the headlines of £350 for every household
(i'd also expect council tax to increase over time to recover the £150)
Its basically just kicking the can down the road, in the hope that energy prices will reduce in the medium term.
That has been UK PLC's energy policy for the last 30 years, so hardly surprising!
Spekkie and other Spanish users - check what potencia you are contracted to, you can make 1 change foc per year on the app. I have reduced mine twice, the simulator on iberdrola website is pretty accurate. Also, I went to the local iberdrola office and said I m switching supplier, it was a bluff, they put me on a 15% discount and an annual fixed price.
I m on the day night plan too, all the above my bills are about half what they were, same consumption.
tthew
Full Member
The ‘cap’ figure which keeps getting mentioned (£1277 currently i think) is the cost of annual energy use at the capped rate.… the AVERAGE cost of annual energy use …
Which is why it’s meaningless as you need to be able to compare the unit and standing charges against fixed tariff prices as snotrag said up there. ☝
Yeah that's what I meant to write...
Currently on a fix, just calculated ours will go from £1704 to £3223 per year in September if we don't cut our usage
Just had Email telling me my Octopus go rate ends next month.
New go rate doubles the on peak tarif to >30p/kwh (previously 13p/kWh).
From what I can see it's priced to make the variable rate very attractive with their "calculations" making the flexible rate ONLY £300 increase than their predicted £500.
Fro reference my total electric cost last 12 month was just over £500 (Am already very careful with usage and it's only me in the house most of the time).
Next winter will be interesting, am more worried about my mum who refuses to come off her PAYG meter.
Octopus has just upped our monthly DD by 20% (extra £17 on top of £81) which seems a bit low. Wonder if it is based on the existing capped value and not the new values coming in next month.....
We're already on the current capped variable rate and just been told when the cap is raised on 1 April our annual charge will go from c£1430 to £2300 per year. So £870 or 60% rise. I guess this is before the £200 loan back
I assume the impact will be similar for everyone else already on variable rates. If you are coming off a fix it will be bigger.
Actual tariffs:
Your electricity rates will change from 20.076p to 27.358p per kWh and your standing charge per day will change from 26.82p to 48.52p.
Your gas rates will change from 3.983p to 7.280p per kWh and your standing charge per day will change from 26.11p to 27.22p.
Sickening.
Was paying £147 a month and when our contract ended in January the energy company bless them, wanted to charge me £310 a month to ‘protect me’ against future price rises. It was almost impossible to find their standard tariff on the website. Now Being really energy conscious and on the variable my costs are still £147 a month (in winter) and come April they still won’t be anywhere near £310a month.
£147 a month (in winter) and come April they still won’t be anywhere near £310a month.
No they won't I don't think. Our usage is similar and we're projected to go to around £220 p/m on the new cap prices (winter bills). Come October though when it is reviewed again all bets are off. It could hit those levels quite easily.
But for now they are taking the ****.
Actually with Utility Warehouse seemingly incapable of getting us onto set monthly payments I am quite happy with them just billing us what we use each month. Most expensive month for us was January at £200 which we could easily manage and then through the summer it will be quite a lot less. I would rather just build up my own buffer for the winter.
We were on £75 p/m last year, that's just crept up to £110 in the last couple of months. Got the email list night with the prediction for the next year were going up to £166 p/m.
Is there any point trying to find a good EV tariff right now, or let things settle down for a bit then look!?
For those with the ability to find the capital, the financials for a solar/battery system are getting much stronger.
For me, a tariff like Octopus Go would mean I use no peak energy, as I can charge the battery by solar for my evening peak, and charge it with night time 5p grid electricity to cover the morning rush. I would also charge my EV with either solar or night time cheap electricity.
It's the ability to access the 5p rate, whilst avoiding the 30p that makes the system work.
I understand wholesale price rises of gas would increase the price of electricity but don't understand why the increase is so high when I think less than half of the UKs electric is produced by gas.
Also, how does the price of gas put the daily standing charge up from 26p to 49p?
For those with the ability to find the capital, the financials for a solar/battery system are getting much stronger.
unfortunately so are costs and lead times. I had 4kw installed mid summer last year having been delayed from the original 3 month install plan by a further 6 months . made a massive difference to my bills .... pretty much halfed them in all but december.
@bruneep is struggling to get a survey from the same local company (or infact anyone) due to increase in demand. I might be misquoting him but iirc he said the phone quote without survey was a budgetary near double what i paid - and the time to install would be some time 2023 ......
Lead times on some recycled Tesla battery units were 8 months when i was looking , after living with the solar for 6 months i tried to get a battery fitted but the lead times nearly doubled - costs remained the same though.
I understand wholesale price rises of gas would increase the price of electricity but don’t understand why the increase is so high when I think less than half of the UKs electric is produced by gas.
First, you would have to ask "Why is the price of gas high?". You would think it was an increase in demand. Yet, demand is similar to pre-pandemic levels, as is supply.
Essentially, they are high because investors (hedge funds) are buying gas at high prices, because they believe they will be higher (or lower) in the future. To some degree, this is self perpetuating as high prices lead to political instability, which leads to higher prices.
The UK gets less than 5% of gas from Russia (around half from the North sea, 40% from Scandi, and some liquified gas from around the world). So the price of gas in the UK should not directly be affected by what is happening in Russia. In practice, prices are set globally for gas and the prices of electricity from other sources is set globally to compete.
Alongside holdings in North sea gas. Shell, BP... have significant holdings in Russian gas from yesterday's FT:
"BP owns almost a fifth of Russia’s largest oil producer Rosneft. UK-listed rival Shell controls 27.5 per cent of Gazprom’s huge Sakhalin-2 offshore gas project in Russia’s far east."
On balance high gas prices probably are a benefit to UK Plc if not the consumer. Hence the weak government response.
But for now they are taking the ****.
Not really. Current wholesale costs are more than the cap so many retailers are making a loss on the standard tariff they're obliged to offer. That's why about thirty have ceased trading in the last year.
Energy prices only ever go up.
Greater global population --> more pressure on finite resources --> higher cost of extraction --> higher retail prices.
Energy prices only ever go up.
Greater global population –> more pressure on finite resources –> higher cost of extraction –> higher retail prices.
Except when they go down ...
Also, how does the price of gas put the daily standing charge up from 26p to 49p?
Many years ago the standing charge directly corrolated to the cost of running the infrastructure. That is no longer the case. Now standing charge is just part of the pricing package the suppliers offer and should be considered part of the total energy cost.
Energy prices only ever go up.
Greater global population –> more pressure on finite resources –> higher cost of extraction –> higher retail prices.
Current prices have very little to do with the cost of production.
I know it's only Feb but I fear what will happen in October now Putin has invaded Ukraine. I've not read any analysis yet and so far ahead or would be very uncertain, but I could imagine another doubling in wholesale gas prices maybe. People would freeze, or starve, or both.
As Ukraine is major grain exporter and food prices are steadily rising it will not be either freeze or starve for some - it will be both.
So a doubling of bread, pasta and so on prices to. Oouphh!
Just had the price cap email from Shell - the estimated bill has gone up by another £920 a year. Oof!
I know it’s only Feb but I fear what will happen in October now Putin has invaded Ukraine. I’ve not read any analysis yet and so far ahead or would be very uncertain, but I could imagine another doubling in wholesale gas prices maybe. People would freeze, or starve, or both.
Gas futures for March delivery were up by 34% a couple of hours ago.
Just received notification that my monthly electricity payments are increasing from £120 to £160 which at 33% isn’t as bad as some. This is for both power and heating as we’ve got an ASHP. Also have applied for RHI which will give me £600/yr for 7 years, but in order to qualify, I need to instal another electric meter to monitor power consumption on the heat pump but that will cost me £600!
Was with Green Energy at £2000pa, they went bust so Shell variable £2660 ... now estimated from April at £3960, and then the next God knows what increase in September.
Stocking up on firewood and blankets I think!
Just had my new tariff email from Shell.
Due to them screwing up the meter readings during the switch over they think my Annual Projection is £28,824 going up £10k to £38,973.
They so far haven't sent me my first bill or taken any payments so should come down a few pennies when it's corrected or have just given me the correct prices for October :S
you pay £28 grand a year on energy?
We got booted to Shell Energy after our supplier Pure Planet went pop.
Still haven't had a bill for months, though supposedly we're still £800 in credit.
Just had our revised projection through - up from £1950 to £2,950!! £1,000 rise!
Unbelievable. Still, good thing we took back our borders so the UK Gov't could cut VAT on heating bills, unlike those pesky Europeans. What's that? We're not? And the European countries are?
One big mess up on Shell's me thinks looking at the readings I've logged but no idea how they've managed to do it.
Same here. Pure Planet customer ended up with Shell. Just had my email and whilst my figures don't look quite as dramatic as some of those quoted above I'm genuinely worried about how we'll afford the increase. £50-60 more per month is a huge deal for us. Supposed to be working from home when not in face to face training delivery. I will be back in the office full time I think as I can't afford the additional energy costs. At least I can commute by bike or walk.
Might be time to re-think expectations of the October price cap change - no, it's not good news; bear in mind the annual prices in the article are based on unit prices.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60506940
Yeah I'm ex green more shell so have seen the same ~doubling in my bills. Thankfully I have a huge supply of logs from cultivating friendships with several tree surgeons and have not used the gas central heating at all this year. My estimated consumption, (gas for cooking and hot water plus electricity) is to go to just over £2k. If the BBC article is right it will probably be nearly £3.5k by October. I going to put timers on all the lights.
For people on Shell, could someone post up the rates they have been given for April? They've sent me E7 rates and want to see if it's worth switching bit can't find any details on the website.
Another ex Pure Planet now with Shell and my bill is going up by £808 from £1,367 to £2,175 as of the 1st April.
@longwayup Rates for the Flexible 7 tariff.
Your electricity rates will change from 20.207p to 27.090p per kWh and your standing charge per day will change from 26.46p to 48.91p.
Your gas rates will change from 3.954p to 7.225p per kWh and your standing charge per day will change from 26.11p to 27.22p.
Economy 7 rates on shell are as follows:
Your Economy 7 electricity rates will change from 25.614p to 33.110p per kWh for your day rate and 10.542p to 18.038p per kWh for your night rate. Your standing charge per day will change from 24.19p to 43.48p.
Former green customer, was paying around 150 a month, now it will be around 350 a month. That's going to hurt a bit, come October I imagine it will smart a tad more..
Due to them screwing up the meter readings during the switch over they think my Annual Projection is £28,824 going up £10k to £38,973.
Where the hell do you live, Balmoral?
Yet another Pure Planet > Shell customer here, I got my email yesterday too. "Increase in cost: £1,432" 😯 Shit the bed. If my electricity usage is zero it'll still cost me £150/year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.
Riddle me this though. Why is my "new Flexible 7 tariff" different from others posted here? Does it cost more to pump electricity uphill* or something?
"Your electricity rates will change from 20.140p to 28.020p per kWh and your standing charge per day will change from 24.38p to 42.24p.
Your gas rates will change from 4.043p to 7.343p per kWh and your standing charge per day will change from 26.11p to 27.22p."
(* - potentially...)
If my electricity usage is zero it’ll still cost me £150/year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.
Solar + battery plus off grid!
Wish I did live in Balmoral but I just don't think Shell know what they are doing. It's interesting that people are having different tariff amounts being given.
Initially Shell sent over the Flexible 6 tariff in October for Standing charge (per day) of 25.66p
and Unit rate (per kWh) of 21.607p which is different to yours.
The latest from Shell I've been given...
Your Economy 7 electricity rates will change from 27.040p to 33.549p per kWh for your day rate and 10.700p to 17.208p per kWh for your night rate. Your standing charge per day will change from 25.75p to 51.70p.
I've got a Smart meter being installed next week as they said they can only bill me on a single rate tariff if I have one installed even though Pure Planet was billing for single rate. I'm going to hazard a guess that this will all go wrong, especially when the first bill turns up and it's something completely different. Any negatives to cancelling the Direct Debit so they can't take the wrong amount?
Yes, it'll destroy your credit rating.
I'm assuming I'm not the only one that's has their Bulb update today. Ours is going from £192 to £241 a month from April.
Actually, thats less than I feared and perhaps maybe due in some small way to some effort to reduce our energy use over the last few months.
I’ve got a Smart meter being installed next week as they said they can only bill me on a single rate tariff if I have one installed even though Pure Planet was billing for single rate
They have targets to meet for installing Smart meters, so saying you have to have one whenever you want something from them is one way of achieving that.
Just had the Bulb email too...
From 1 April, our prices will be increasing
We're increasing our electricity unit rate from 21.547p to 29.484p per kWh and electricity standing charge from 24.027p to 41.660p per day.
We're increasing our gas unit rate from 4.052p to 7.319p per kWh and standing charge from 26.112p to 27.219p per day...
...It's now around four times higher than it was a year ago.
To say I'm mightily pi55ed off paying a 300% hike over prices 12 months ago is an understatement.
I feel very sorry for those who can't afford it and have to choose between eating, heating etc. Sad times.
To say I’m mightily pi55ed off paying a 300% hike over prices 12 months is an understatement.
Aren't we all, it isn't Bulbs fault though.
I’m assuming I’m not the only one that’s has their Bulb update today. Ours is going from £192 to £241 a month from April.
Actually, thats less than I feared and perhaps maybe due in some small way to some effort to reduce our energy use over the last few months.
Well I think I can beat that.
On 6 April we will increase your monthly payments from £127.00 to £215.74
Ouch.
A quick look at octopus and the unit rate was about 20% more than the bulb email. British gas wouldn't even give me a price.
Yet another Pure Planet > Shell customer here
me too 0 £1256 increase n April and surely more to come. One thing I do like about shell is the hourly graph of usage (you need a smart meter and to sign into half hourly readings for this to work), but seeing the cost per day of each utility live is an incentive to switch off some stuff.