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Interesting ruling, Uber drivers are employees...
I suppose its no different to an IT contractor who only has one client, 40 hours a week at a fixed place of work.
They are not really contractors in the eyes of HMRC, they are disguised employees.
Very fair and sensible ruling IMO, hopefully it will be held up upon appeal.
Don't worry, I'm sure these rights will be legislated away post brexit in order to maintain business competitiveness.
Don't worry, I'm sure these rights will be legislated away post brexit in order to maintain business competitiveness.
Good point.
Personally I'm looking forward to having a small malnourished working class child (aka 'an urchin') clean my chimney using his bare nails.
Very fair and sensible ruling IMO, hopefully it will be held up upon appeal.
This a million times over.
Hopefully similar actions elsewhere in Europe will follow. No issues with the concept of Über but it's a taxi service not a minicab and it should be regulated as such and the drivers need to be paid properly. They are a hunongeous pita in London, 25,000 of them crawling adound at low speeds waiting for a fare jamming traffic up and killing the best taxi service in the world
I see the Remoaners are out here too. Uber helps no one, low wages, even lower taxes paid, killing good jobs. Things Leave campaigners are very much against
I seethe Remoaners are out here too. Uber helps no one, low wages, even lower taxes paid, killing good jobs. Things Leave campaigners are very much against
This departure from reality has been brought to you by jambalaya™
Interesting. Uber might be the headline case for this but presumably it affects all the traditional mini-cab firms as well - pretty sure most drivers who have their own car are probably self employed at the moment (this [url= http://www.easyaccountancy.co.uk/how/trades/self-employed-taxi-driver ]page[/url] seems to suggest it's common at least). Addison Lee played even [url= http://www.supercabby.co.uk/how-self-employed-are-addison-lees-2400-cab-drivers/ ]looser with the rules[/url] - you had to rent a car from them
Uber certainly exploits its workers. It's has total control over them and yet won't accept any responsibility (i.e. costs). It and all the others (Deliveroo) etc, should all be forced to pay employer's NI, pensions, sick pay, holiday etc.
Otherwise it's just a race to the bottom.
Very good news,
Proud remoaner here 🙂 , I wouldn't be surprised if the government did try and reverse this in the post Brexit bonfire of workers rights.
But for now it's a brilliant thing, might start getting more realistic employment figures too
Probably an end yes. Shame as it worked well for some and this option may be taken away.
Excellent decision and hope it's not overturned on appeal.
Will it lead to a reduction in number of ubers parking indiscriminately in city centres - in my case, leeds - sometimes on cycle paths waiting for a fare.
I've never used in on a point of principle as i don't approve of their business model.
why do they have cars with cameras on top , a bit like a google car ?
saw one yestersay with uber signs , and some cameras in all directions on the roof .
do they do their own mapping ?
I see the Remoaners are out here too. Uber helps no one, low wages, even lower taxes paid, killing good jobs. Things Leave campaigners are very much against
Oh please do tell me what else I'm against. I wasn't aware I was against decent employment law.
Probably an end yes. Shame as it worked well for some and this option may be taken away.
I can't see it working well for anyone at this end of the income scale. Obviously there's huge advantages at high pay rates, but for people working for Uber, Deliveroo, Yodel etc- I need some enlightenment please. Feel free to provide examples.
How many thousands in how many countries do you need?
a typically oblique answer. I'm sorry that I don't get it. I guess that's why you have the job you have, and I don't have one. 😆
One example, from this country, worked through to enable me to understand the advantages of being self employed over employed, for, say, a delivery driver. It'd be a big help.
Probably an end yes. Shame as it worked well for some and this option may be taken away.
It works particularly well for employers wanted to cut costs - to the detriment of employees.
It's an operating model. Like all models it has strengths and weaknesses. It works for some, not for others. It can be used well or be abused badly. Nothing unusual there.
I would prefer there to be competition between models and greater flexibility for workers to find jobs that best suit their personal situation. So if we lose the gig economy, I think that overall that would be a bad thing. That is not saying that it works for everyone, like any model, clearly it doesn't.
Each to their own.
One example, from this country, worked through to enable me to understand the advantages of being self employed over employed, for, say, a delivery driver. It'd be a big help.
As a self employed delivery driver, you are selling a service to a courier firm, so you'd get paid x amount per drop for example.
Flexible working hours, but no paid holliday, no sick pay. Also you have to pay your own employers tax and NI from your fees, and maintain your vehicle, insure it etc.
So what ever the courier firm pays you, needs to cover all that cost and leave you with enough money to live, pay rent, eat etc.
Mattyfez, I understand the ins and outs. I was wondering what the upside of being a self employed multi drop driver was over being paid an hourly wage. I can't see it, unless you count being not being on the dole.
Lots of stuff in the papers, on the radio suggests the same.
cchris2lou - Member
why do they have cars with cameras on top , a bit like a google car ?
saw one yestersay with uber signs , and some cameras in all directions on the roof .
do they do their own mapping ?
Yes. One of Uber's stated goals is self driving cars. They want to do away with the driver and these issues entirely and have the customer just able to summon a vehicle when they need it.
I don't understand why the case was brought against Uber when self employed taxi drivers have been around for years.They usually have a base and you often rent a radio and sometimes a vehicle and then get fares from them and them only-seems a lot more like proper employment than the Uber model.
Well probably not much benefit in a job like that, I suppose if you just wanted to do it casualy as a second income or something it's flexible, but I doubt it would pay well enough to make it worthwhile as a full time job.
If you earned £10 per hour in normal employment, you'd be on £19,500.00 a year... take home about £1360 a month after tax, and have holiday entitlements.
If you earned £10 per hour contracting, and took 4 weeks unpaid hoilday in the year, youd be on about £200 pounds a month less after tax.
Thats based on working 37.5 hours per week, 5 days a week. so your hourly rate would have to be suitably higher than £10 if contracting.
Surely the company could operate both models at the same time?
Employ a certain number of permies then use extra help at peak times or whatever? Like IT companies do but on a shorter scale.
£10 per hour as a wage is a lot more than £10 per hour as a contract rate one you add on all the additional benefits and NI. What will happen in reality is that the cost to the company will be the same at £10per hour(to use your example) and from that holiday pay , employers NI etc will be deducted meaning that the rate the employee gets is less. The contract staff in our office have been made aware of this should HMRC make a similar call in our industry.
Contractors in IT tend to be paid relatively more for the same job due the the shortfall.
But of you are contracting as a delivery driver, paid by the drop, you need to be consistently able to do enough drops per day to make it worth it or you could end up taking home very little, or working long days to do more drops to make up the shortfall.
I don't know how much they pay per drop bit you've got to take into account distance between drops and traffic as that could be the difference between doing an 8 hour day, or 12 hours to make up for delays and squeeze a few more drops in.
Surely the company could operate both models at the same time?
I suppose, but with a company like uber or a courier it significantly lowers admin overheads for the company, they don't need to maintain a fleet of vehicles, they don't need to complicate their payroll with paying tax and authorizing holidays, no HR issues etc..
Could this not impact the construction industry quite heavily too?
Lots of my friends work solely for a single contractor on SC60.
Depends on the set up, the problem with companies like uber, is that HMRC see their drivers as employed, as the drivers don't do an uber gig for 6 months then do anpther gig for a new customer like a genuine contracor would, or have two or three customers on their books.
Now couple this with earning under minimum wage, if uber are deemed your employer rather than your customer/client, uber are in deep do do.
It works particularly well for employers wanted to cut costs - to the detriment of employees.
+1
Basically consumers get a low fare at the expense of the standard of living of the employees / "agents". Completely exploitative business model which has no place in a civilised society.
Contracing does have its place, but legit outfits will pay you a day rate or an hourly rate, not a rate per drop or a rate per cab fair.
Didn't deliveroo recently get dragged over the coals for similar practice?
Depends on the set up, the problem with companies like uber, is that HMRC see their drivers as employed, as the drivers don't do an uber gig for 6 months then do anpther gig for a new customer like a genuine contracor would, or have two or three customers on their books.
One of my mates has been working for the same outfit for 7 odd years!
I do wonder if Uber will reduce the driver pay to cover this. Like any commercial entity, they won't just take the financial hit and reduction in profits. They know that they can't raise prices by too much.
Does anyone know if there is a written judgement somewhere? I'm surprised at the outcome, as I understand it uber drivers decide which hours they work (if at all) and are free to drive for other firms or themselves when registered to uber. Nothing about the uber business model seems like an employment relationship, and the criticism of describing it as a mosiac of thousands of self employed drivers seems odd, as that is exactly how I understand it - each is a registered taxi driver, providing maintaining, fueling and insuring their own vehicle, selecting which hours (and to some extent which jobs) they do. In which employment contracts do you decide at will, when to work, when to go home, and provide thousands of pounds of equipment and licensing paperwork, and do your rates of pay increase when the firm is busy (rather than on a set pattern) because I quite fancy a job there if it comes with the bonuses of holidays and sickness etc.
I suspect this is a subtlety of the contact wording and uber will simply revise it to work around rather than being the landslide for workers rights you all seem to hope for. Ironically the delivery drivers' situation seems much closer to a standard employment relationship and has been around for a long time, why have the Unions not fought that corner?
Disappointing thread title. Assumed it was an end to retards paying 120 quid to see Rod Stewart....
Does anyone know if there is a written judgement somewhere? I'm surprised at the outcome, as I understand it uber drivers decide which hours they work (if at all) and are free to drive for other firms or themselves when registered to uber. Nothing about the uber business model seems like an employment relationship, and the criticism of describing it as a mosiac of thousands of self employed drivers seems odd, as that is exactly how I understand it - each is a registered taxi driver, providing maintaining, fueling and insuring their own vehicle, selecting which hours (and to some extent which jobs) they do. In which employment contracts do you decide at will, when to work, when to go home, and provide thousands of pounds of equipment and licensing paperwork, and do your rates of pay increase when the firm is busy (rather than on a set pattern) because I quite fancy a job there if it comes with the bonuses of holidays and sickness etc.
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Über's business model seems nasty and personally I won't be disappointed if this sticks.
why have the Unions not fought that corner?
Why do you think they haven't?
It can get very complicated, and as you say, a lot depends on the terms of the contractual agreement.
Some light reading here [url= http://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/what_is_ir35_rules_explained.html ]http://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/what_is_ir35_rules_explained.html[/url]
As a working taxi driver this is an awful verdict. One that hopefully will be quashed on appeal.
The overwhelming majority of taxi drivers don't want to be "employed".
The whole point of the job is the flexibility. I'm not a fan of Uber but in Cardiff all Uber drivers are existing licenced taxi drivers, driving licenced private hire cars. They've all been recruited from existing taxi companies so the overall number of vehicles hasn't changed.
How the trade works is you get your badge, licence a vehicle with the council and get a radio ( phone with an app ) of a taxi firm. You pay the taxi firm a flat fee £94 a week in my case,adding this to other expenses comes to about £250, what I earn over that is my profit a week. Uber is different in that they take a % of your fares, they can do his because all payment comes from cards or paypall already loged with them. They take their cut and the driver has the balance payed into his/her bank account.
To go to work you turn on the app, you become live on the system and the app offers you jobs, you accept it and go and do it. Work finishes when you turn the app off, you choose your hours and can come and go as you please. This is what 99% of taxi drivers want, it's a shame a couple of people who shouldn't have got into the trade can spoil it for everyone else 🙁
I'm not sure how owner drivers could be employed as such. When your taking cash how does the taxi company know how much you've taken ? Do the pay minimum wage £7.20 but it cost's me about £5 an hour to be on the road so £12.20.
Why why why should a system that's worked for everyones benefit be changed on the whim of a couple of whiners 🙁
Not really sure why anyone outside of the trade has much of an opinion on the whole business.
Edit.
Über's business model seems nasty and personally I won't be disappointed if this sticks.
Having read the above, yes it is. But a ruling that applies to them might very well apply to all the trade.
Mattyfez, as soon as it's a day rate and you are expected in the office every day and to advise someone in advance if you aren't planning to come in then it's really an employment relationship - HMRC need to tighten up on that rather than the other end of the market.
There are genuine self employed contractors (highly sought after too!) who price on a project/milestone basis rather than time.
footflaps - but oddly it's very close to the model used by other traditional taxi firms and nobody seems to have a problem with them because they usually have a few dozen drivers at most. The fares aren't alway significantly cheaper either, but you do get a convenient payment, booking etc, and no lies that "I'm ten minutes away".
Cha****ng - have they? Have they had significant success? It seems the model is widely used by the likes of yodel and hermes so it can't have been a clear cut win?
poly - this was driven by union action I believe...
Vinneyh - interesting. So if they turn the contract around so that they are finding an available quality vetted cab for the buyer (passenger) it probably solves it! that's how as a passenger I've always perceived it. Whilst I can see how they've gone through that list and said "that sounds like an employee" I think there is an element of niavety that the appeal court may over rule. Many companies select vendors, tell them how tasks must be performed, and insist on quality and performance management to achieve them - clearly that doesn't make them automatically employees.
Cha****ng - thanks, although that seems to be at Hmrc investigating stage rather than a court decision? Perhaps it's just luck. Cynically there's a lot of potential new union members to sign up in the taxi trade!
Court case was funded by the GMB IIRC.
Yep
The case was brought by the GMB trade union following claims that Uber had disregarded its drivers' basic employment rights.
Taxi25, thank you for the insight of your trade. In regards to the Uber drivers who brought this action via the union do you think it is down to over subscription with so many drivers fighting over too fewer jobs? Like others have said there you see so many parked up waiting for a fare and earning nothing in this time as self employed where as now if treated as employed they have an hourly rate for clogging up the streets. With more and more drivers jumping on as Uber drivers as full time employment and a way of getting additional income this situation is bound to get worse.
I don't know Craig. In Cardiff the overall number of drivers have remained the same with Uber operating here, maybe its different in London. But there's always people with a grevience, some people in the trade locally think the drivers who brought the case are union stooges ( employed driver's would mean 1,000's of new members ).
Maybe its different here,
but when I was in the states (only time I've used Uber) all the drivers were doing it as a second job/top up.
Bored at home for an evening? Head out for 3-4 hours and earn a little extra. Day off when no one else was around etc.
I'm sure there probably were some who did it full time too, but from the 20 odd times I used it, everyone was someone with another job.
Definitely different in Cardiff simply. To drive for Uber you have to be a licensed driver in a licensed car, with all the associated costs. Vast majority of drivers are full time, it takes a good few hours to cover your fixed overheads and get into profit.
So you have to essentially be employed by Uber, but get no employment benefits like paid Holliday or a guaranteed income?
Ime guessing that's what people are taking issue with.
Not quite mattyfez. In Cardiff you present yourself to uber as a licensed driver with a licensed vehicle. You still have complete flexibility of working hours ect. Uber do offer incentives to get you to work peak or unsociable hours but they aren't compulsory.
There is freedom of movement between taxi companies, but you pick one, taxi companies don't won't you filling in jobs with uber. Thats their way of protecting their market share. I can't say it enough the vast majority of taxi drivers want to remain self employed.
London it's a nightmare, roads clogged with Prius doing 20mph waiting for a job. A black cab stops on a rank at a station for example or drives at at a speed to a place where they know there is work. A black cab is a specified expensive vehicle regularly inspected without notice. The driver has a taxi licence and has to pass a rigourous test. Also drivers don't set the fares they are set centrally at a rate which is a living wage. Uber is a race to the bottom in terms and condition and wages. Uber is abusing the minicab laws to run a taxi service
@taxi being self employed isn't the issue its about the level of the fare being set by a regulator or by a Californian company.
£10 an hour in an office job where they provide premises and equipment is different to £10 an hour where you provide the car, fuel, insurance etc
@oldman - remainers being here and Leavers stance are two seperate things, I wasn't implying they thought the opposite.
Well said taxi25
Good point.Personally I'm looking forward to having a small malnourished working class child (aka 'an urchin') clean my chimney using his bare nails.
My man uses his scrotum. Make no mistake!
Sorry jamba but your comments are only relevant to how uber operates in the London market. In the Cardiff market none of your assertions hold true. Uber exits as another option that licensed drivers can embrace or reject. Don't forget there is a whole world outside of London. One size very definitely doesn't fit in this matter.
Timely piece on HBR https://hbr.org/2016/10/who-wins-in-the-gig-economy-and-who-loses
Taxi so in Cardiff Uber is regulated like a taxi service with the council setting the fares and drivers using a proper meter ? I think not, they are operating as a taxi service under mini-cab legislation ?
@jamba. The council regulates the drivers and vehicles. But uber sets their own fares. All private hire firms ( mini cabs ) in cardiff are free to do the same although most operate using the Council set hackney rate.
That article doesn't use the term, but this kind of casual work is another example of the "hollowing out" of the workforce.
I think the piece oversells the benefits and dodges the macro issues like inadequate pension provision and to what extent governments are subsidising sharp practice by employers by allowing them to treat many workers so poorly that they are still eligible for benefits.
Taxi Uber is going to destroy the traditional taxi services and then replace its drivers with automatic vehicles.
One impact of this (and other such gig employment) is that we may be forced to change the way we assign welfare and health benefits to be more aligned to France and Germany. Unless you pay a minimum amount of national insurance you get virtually nothing. We cannot have a situation where decent jobs are replaced with those below minimum wage.
Uber surge pricing model means you have no idea what the fare home will be. Once the normal taxis are gone it's going to be carnage.
I would allow Uber to act as a licenced taxi service but fully regulated with centrally controlled fares. I would allow driverless cars but with a licence fee in excess of a full time drivers wages.
London it's a nightmare, roads clogged with Prius doing 20mph waiting for a job. A black cab stops on a rank at a station
I cycle to work in London daily and far prefer it to be full of Prius clogging the roads than stinking polluting black cabs. I worked in victoria for years and there is a large black cab rank there, they all sit there running their polluting engines until pick ups.
The whole point of the job is the flexibility
But they won't be fully employed. They will be 'workers', they will retain their flexibility and gain more rights.
One interesting point is that had we signed up to TTIP, Uber would be able to sue the UK for loss of revenue from this ruling, since TTIP (allegedly) puts company revenue about domestic law.....
Jamba,
You talk as though squeezing many of the taxi firms out is automatically a bad thing? Talk to many of the uber drivers who worked for them before and you'll find equally as bad morals, just from some local businesses rather than a big American one.
I'm not sure what you mean by decent jobs replaced by those below minimum wage. Do you think drivers in other all taxi firms were doing great before uber arrived? Does the ultimate driverless car expectation not make it irrelevant what a driver earns? I'm not sure I follow the leap from there to welfare needing to be directly linked to previous inputs? Is your assumption that once we have driverless cars, driverless delivery vehicles, drone deliveries, etc that all those people will be signing on? history would suggest that new economies emerge when technology replaces jobs.
Of course there is nothing unique about uber, others can (and have) copied the model. Lyft in the US are almost certainly waiting for uber to iron out the regulatory issues before expanding internationally, some of the bigger city firms (like the one in Cardiff) have copied the order by app, pay by app approach etc. So your doomsday scenario with an uber monopoly and the resulting price exploitation is unlikely to occur. Any such scenario just makes it easier for an emerging competitor to win.
Why should uber be regulated any differently to other taxi firms? at least with uber there is a brand reputation and some sophisticated technology to stop drivers exploiting passengers. In fact I wonder if the no-tip structure, and no cash payments means Hmrc get a much more accurate view of drivers income.