You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Backstory:
My daughter is at Uni and is doing a placement year working for a large company at their offices in Manchester.
She was offered a 12 month contract and on that basis she rented an apartment in the city with friends who are also doing placements years.
She is due to finish on June 30th this year but her manager yesterday told her that all intern contracts [end dates] were being brought forward 2 weeks* and that she would not be paid for the last two weeks. This means she's going to be about £800 short on earnings and yet still has the apartment to pay for until the end of June.
* Turns out this is untrue
She's very upset about this.
[for some reason this site is not allowing me to paste in the relevant part of her contract ]
There is a clause listing various instances when the company can end her employment early but none of these apply to her - she's a hard worker and has done nothing wrong.
So, based on the above can they do this? It seems really weird as the company employs a lot of interns but they are also a multinational recruitment company so should know what they're doing.
If they can then its very shitty.
I should add that she had an issue with one male employee who came on to her quite strongly and was knocked back. He subsequently started acting very badly towards her and was publicly abusive. My daughter reported this and he was reprimanded - but the manager who spoke to my daughter yesterday thinks the sun shines out this lads a***.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
I'm certainly not a lawyer but she has been employed for less than one year and they have given her plenty of notice of her new amended end date. Sounds like they are fine to do this?
From Gov website:
The statutory redundancy notice periods are: at least one week's notice if employed between one month and 2 years. one week's notice for each year if employed between 2 and 12 years. 12 weeks' notice if employed for 12 years or more.
and that she would not be paid for the last two weeks
If she doesn't work the two weeks then not a lot can be done other than perhaps a claim for breach of contract which would be pretty tricky
but the manager who spoke to my daughter yesterday thinks the sun shines out this lads a***.
check policy handbook on sexual harrassment and possibly report the manager.
She was offered a 12 month contract and on that basis she rented an apartment in the city with friends who are also doing placements years.
ON the surface thats well weird. American based company by any chance?
there will also likely be a reporting channel via the uni. Might be worth using. The company will not like the threat of losing interns from the uni
the Uni will probably have robust sexual harassment policies. I guess thats the place to go to for support.
Her notice period is 4 weeks according to the contract, so they're still within that although she's not had anything written and it has to be written.
What I don't understand is that they're willing to cut her employment short by 2 weeks for no seemingly no good reason - other than to earn a very bad review from her.
They employ a lot of students most of whom need to take out an accommodation contract - so the knowledge that they might be cut loose for no reason might be a factor in deciding who they work for.
ON the surface thats well weird. American based company by any chance?
No, a pretty well known UK based employment agency. One of my other daughters did a placement year with them in London last year!
Why is it weird TJ?
(or just the fact that they're cutting it by two weeks is weird?)
check policy handbook on sexual harrassment and possibly report the manager.
It was reported to her manager - he didn't do much so she took it further which prompted some action - the lad was talked to and the instance was put on his employment record. He stopped being an utter dick after that.
brought forward 2 weeks*
* Turns out this is untrue
The bit that is untrue is it applies to ALL? So you're saying she is being singled out?
As above not a lot she can do. I would hope "came on to her quite strongly and was knocked back" has nothing to do with it but she could quite reasonably ask why she is being singled out when other interns are completing the current contracts.
First thing I would do is get her to ask for it to all be put in writing, and then maybe ask HR why the contract is being cut short.
Why is it weird TJ?
I understood that as a condition of her internship she had to rent a flat share in the city. On re reading it seems I misread
Your sentence says "on that basis" I read it as " on the basis"
Apologies. I'm a dumbarse 🙂
Honestly? They've given her loads of notice, far more than the four weeks stated in her contract, so I don't think they can accused of doing anything underhand or wrong. It's annoying for her, sure, but sometimes them's the breaks.
TBH I'd be very surprised if there's much you can do about it. Chalk it up as a learning exercise and move on. Also what's the tenancy agreement, maybe speak to the landlord and see what options are for ending 2 weeks early.
Or save up the £800 if possible and just have a fun two weeks off.
The bit that is untrue is it applies to ALL? So you’re saying she is being singled out?
As above not a lot she can do. I would hope “came on to her quite strongly and was knocked back” has nothing to do with it but she could quite reasonably ask why she is being singled out when other interns are completing the current contracts.
Yes, turns out some placements are being extended. I don't know if it's just her but it's certainly not as described to her.
First thing I would do is get her to ask for it to all be put in writing, and then maybe ask HR why the contract is being cut short.
I'm more inclined to wait and see if it's put in writing and then approach HR for a reason. I'm not quite sure how to put this, but she is really quite beautiful and lovely and is popular with her peers unlike the manager - I can't help but wonder if this may be that her manager has an issue with her and is being a [female] dick as they don't really get on that well.
I’m more inclined to wait and see if it’s put in writing and then approach HR for a reason.
They don't need a reason, they're ending her contract as per the terms in that contract, terms that both parties agreed to. Genuinely, I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill.
She needs to chalk it up to experience (the placement is about getting work experience after all, and annoying stuff like this is, unfortunately, part and parcel of working) and move on.
Shouldn't she be speaking to her Uni as presumably they arranged the placement?
They’ve given her loads of notice, far more than the four weeks stated in her contract
Well they haven't yet as she's had nothing in writing.
The bit I'm finding strange is that it's just two weeks before the contract was going to end anyway - what's the point?! The company know that these students relocate for the year and that they're pretty much always tied in to a 12 month contract.
The financial implications for a student are pretty huge - saving the £800 in the next 8 weeks just isn't a thing!
I can't see that any fuss caused by her reporting the bloke for coming on strong would result in them deciding to end her contract in 2.5 months time instead of 3 - if they were doing that to get her out of the way to avoid any repercussions, etc. then I'd assume it would be an immediate notice, paid in lieu and sent on gardening leave. Unfair and not good for the learning / experience of her internship, but if they were underhand enough to do that to cover up the bad behaviour of a star employee then I doubt whether they'd GAF about her learning experience.
Yes, turns out some placements are being extended
Is it possible everyone's getting ended 2 weeks early (as seems their right by the terms of the contract) but then some are being given new contracts after that date?
In the end - seems like it's their right and not a lot you can do about it. The issue with the flat is I'm afraid, between her and the landlord / agreement there. Nothing to stop her asking the company / HR for some help to cover the last 2 weeks rent, answer might be FRO
Considering the length of service and from what you have said I would say contractually there is nothing that can be done imo. As others have said I would speak to landlord to see if he can get someone in earlier to offer some recompense.
As others have said it sounds crap, but legal with the notice, so chalk it up to shit happens and either try to leave the flat early or get other work.
My wife was half way through a PhD based on research on a theatre company. The company fell out with the Uni as it was looking like they wanted her (via the Uni) to say things that she wasn't finding to be the case. On the basis of the 3 year PhD she/we took a loan for a car and making a home office space. She got one month's notice when the company and Uni parted ways, and we got to keep paying off the loan for the car and office space. It was really crap, especially after all the work my wife had done, but essentially tough shit.
Less than 2 years service you have no right for wrongful dismissal, apart from some very specific circumstances, so they can basically do what they want. They don't even have to give her any notice at all.
why's she £800 short - I assume that's her earnings rather than 2 weeks rent on a flat she doesn't need. Nothing to stop her moving back home as I assume she was doing after the contract anyway and she's only out of pocket by the rent.
If she's renting a flat with friends where her share is £1600 a month ...... I'd question if she's made sensible choices there!!
Shirley, on a fixed term contract, it can only be shortened if the contract allows it?
OP says
There is a clause listing various instances when the company can end her employment early but none of these apply to her
So, if it's not for one of those reasons, is the shortening of the ftc valid? Might be worth an acas approach? Or r/LegalAdviceUK on reddit.
Shirley, on a fixed term contract, it can only be shortened if the contract allows it?
OP says
There is a clause listing various instances when the company can end her employment early but none of these apply to her
So, if it’s not for one of those reasons, is the shortening of the ftc valid? Might be worth an acas approach? Or r/LegalAdviceUK on reddit.
No point. If she had more than 2 years service, then she could go for unfair dismissal, however, she does not have the legal right of unfair dismissal with less than 2 years service.
It says further up that there is a notice period clause - even on a FTC not uncommon, circumstances change and the employer needs flexibility.
If there isn't a general notice period (OP says that there are specific instances given, but are they the only instances or just examples of) then it may be worth challenging but I suspect the contract does allow this.
It does sound odd to just terminate the contract 2 weeks early but there's nothing really that can done. I can't see how you'd have a chance of linking it to the harassment complaint (even if it is) and seems odd it wouldn't be an earlier date if it were connected (OK immediately ending it would be suspicious enough to get looked into further by HR but 2 weeks short of the contracted period doesn't seem enough if the manager's intention is to punish her)
It's shitty and sucks balls, but meantime; Your daughter has obvs had a crap time there what with the sexual harassment and an unsupportive manager, It may or may not be legal, but they clearly have a scant regard for legalities or respect for employees, and now they've revealed that to your daughter, I would say she's lucky that she's getting out of there.
It's "just" two weeks, and while it seems awful right now, your daughter will no doubt go on to do bigger and better things, and in time this becomes a story that starts "I once worked for a company that were so shitty..."
As others have said it sounds crap, but legal with the notice, so chalk it up to shit happens and either try to leave the flat early or get other work.
Getting someone else is not an option.... there's three of them and they took out the contract together, so they're all leaving after the 30th.
I'm sure they probably can do this but my daughter has just spoken to her old manager who's said that it sounds like a headcount issue - but they can't use that as a reason to end her contract early.
I've suggested to her that if they do give her proper [written] notice that she should go to HR and explain the accommodation issue to see if they will pay for those two weeks.
No, the £800 is her earnings not the rental!
But, despite doing spreadsheets and working everything out 12 months ago, costs have obviously risen and she has also overpaid tax which hasn't helped.
I've told her to also contact a friend of ours who has a really good [cool] employment agency in Manchester to see if she can work there for a couple of months and bin off the current employers early!!
Relevant but not hopeful -
I did my uni placement year at a startup that was terrible and going nowhere. I managed the full year but another student who started slightly later was left in the lurch after the company went bust. Don't recall him being able to get any help with either his rent or the fact he wasn't able to get a full year of experience.
even on a FTC not uncommon, circumstances change and the employer needs flexibility.
But as mentioned several times in the thread, the employer has full flexibility anyway as the employee has been there less than two years.
So why bother with the fixed term at all? Just take people on, and bin them when you don't need them anymore.
I'd have thought the benefit of a ftc sits with both the employer and employee in this situation, so if there's literally zero benefit to the employee, then why are ftc's allowed at all?
Just sounds a bit odd to me.
left in the lurch after the company went bust.
... This is Hays Recruitment - slightly different kettle of fish!
I don't suppose they will help her out at all, which is disappointing, but it just shows how different companies can be......
My eldest has a grad job with eBay starting in September - she emailed them to say that she was having to relocate to London and they replied saying that they'd give her an extra £2.5k in the first month to help with costs!!
I’d have thought the benefit of a ftc sits with both the employer and employee in this situation, so if there’s literally zero benefit to the employee, then why are ftc’s allowed at all?
In many instances where a FTC is used, it probably isn't the right vehicle. We tend to only use them when it genuinely is a fixed term, eg: for absence cover or to staff a project that you know has a finite end date. But even then there may be need for flexibility.
Hypothetical but:
Employee goes off on mat leave intending they will return after a year.
You employ cover for that period. All good.
Now say the employee has a still birth. Takes time to recover, obvs but then wants to return to work after 3 months. Are you compelled to employ them both until the FTC is up?
I think she should bin off the current employers early if she finds something - they've told her that the contract will end early. Unfortunately, under 1 year and an employer can just bin you off. It seems to be happening more and more.
My son has just been made redundant, on the spot as he's in IT, but they didn't need to pay him more than a week's pay, they did actually give him six weeks pay, which was way more than he thought he's get.
The bit I’m finding strange is that it’s just two weeks before the contract was going to end anyway – what’s the point?! The company know that these students relocate for the year and that they’re pretty much always tied in to a 12 month contract.
can sometimes be the opposite. these year in industry / placement years / whatever they call them now replicate the uni year, so they can often be september to june, while still being accredited as a "year" of actual work.
If thats on site in a large city, many of them might actually want a student let, running for 10 months, rather than a full year.
The company might also offer summer placements (different industry, but I had to work every summer at a relevent company, rather than having a placment year) and for whatever reason, not want the two cohorts to overlap.
I should add that she had an issue with one male employee who came on to her quite strongly and was knocked back. He subsequently started acting very badly towards her and was publicly abusive.
Sounds like this fella needs a quiet 'word'. I know its wrong but a fathers protective instinct over a daughter is strong. Not sure I could leave that be.
why’s she £800 short – I assume that’s her earnings rather than 2 weeks rent on a flat she doesn’t need. Nothing to stop her moving back home as I assume she was doing after the contract anyway and she’s only out of pocket by the rent.
If she’s renting a flat with friends where her share is £1600 a month …… I’d question if she’s made sensible choices there!!
This is just what he wanted to hear. Pointless questions that don't help along with a ill-informed judgement.
ISTR you did this on another thread. IDK why you seem to have an issue with me.
It was a question based on my misunderstanding which OP cleared up (indeed I should have read the OP better in the first place) I was interested to understand the scale of what her actual losses were, she might not be able to get out of the rent, the lost earnings are not really lost because she won't have actually earned them, if you want to be blunt.....she'll be paid for the days she worked. And if she was £800 down because that was what she owed in rent - that would be a factor in how hard I'd suggest trying to get it back / whether you might have a chance with HR. If her rent is anything like my daughter's next year rent, it'll be about £200 that she's paying to rent a house she doesn't really need because her job ended 2 weeks early.
FWIW, the OP indicates no criminal activity. Coming on a bit strong, and then publicly being abusive when knocked back is horrible behaviour, but honestly fella, if you're going to whiteknight in and have a 'quiet word' every time your daughter gets that sort of behaviour then you'd better clear you're diary because your going to be busy.
Do I condone it. Absolutely not. Do we need to teach our sons to be better humans. Absolutely. Do we need to teach our daughters to stand up for themselves. Yes to that too.
She was offered a 12 month contract and on that basis she rented an apartment in the city with friends who are also doing placements years
I think this is important, who said the offer was on the basis the rented this apartment together? If job then surely they should cover part of this given they've tied the friends into a contract the affordability of which is dependent on the contract they've just shortened.
Kippers in the photocopier on the last friday. Laters.
morally I agree, legally I suspect it's tough taters - circumstances change and contracts have clauses in case they do. That's why as it's a relatively small sum to a big co (I'm again going to estimate at £200-250 actual costs incurred for rent that she doesn't need) she *might* get a bit of luck if she's nice about it.
Realistically if they'd said it was a 11.5 month contract, I suspect you wouldn't get a landlord to agree to that anyway, it'll mainly be PCM or per year anyway.
One hundredthidiot - I think yo have misread that as I did earlier
She rented the flat because she had been given the offer. It was not a condition of the offer that she rented the flat.
Manchester and surrounds will have a load of sports, concerts, festivals and events from the middle of June onwards. Sitting in the Manc office of Hays I'd expect it wouldn't be all that hard to track down a couple of weeks or more of income if she needs it. Still worth a small harumph at the change in terms, but not much more. I'd assume she'll have done enough to satisfy the Uni re terms of placement.
I thought I'd update this.
My daughter spoke to her managers' boss and explained the situation who agreed it wasn't right and she's been told that she is to work her contract out in full.
Result ........ and one in the eye for her manager!
😉
well done, and well done to her (and you) for leaving it to her to sort it out.
Being a parent and always there for our kids is one thing, but one of the life skills we need to teach our kids is independence. We complain because schools don't teach them the right maths to be able to work out if a mortgage deal is any good or not, how to sort out a car insurance deal, etc. and then we interfere in instances like this. I know it makes me sound like a tough parent but 'your problem, you sort it out' while finding out in the background and dropping hints in where necessary is IMHO the way to go.