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Junior doctors no longer have contracts like that IIRC
gobuchal - why does the WTD not apply to you?
gobuchal – why does the WTD not apply to you?
The WTD doesn't apply to everyone. basically when it ends up in the "all too difficult" category they dropped it.
Nothing in there would allow you to be forced to work 50 days without a day off. Very limited exemptions
<div>tjagain
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Mike – it may be normal but you are allowing the management to use you. Time off is time off. Its not a rest day if you are answering emails so possible breach of WTD.
Much I applaud your gallantry trying to save the world one union victory at a time get a grip man! If I was pushing buttons on a production line or stacking shelves paid by the hour then that could be a point. I get a salary to deliver, how I choose to do it is up to me, I'm not being used. Very simply in the real world jobs are not just things you get and turn up to, somebody has to generate the work and deliver it so we can have jobs.
What would a annoying is to not answer something and cause a massive delay that doesn't need to happen.
I can choose to be as available as I like, work can be flexible or rigid. I don't need protecting from them.
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Nothing in there would allow you to be forced to work 50 days without a day off. Very limited exemptions
Apart from certain professions being exempt?
I'm not "forced" to work 50 days without a day off. I choose in work in a specialist part of an industry that requires it.
It's possible that my work could follow the requirements of the WTD, however, it would be neither, practicable or sensible to do so.
I choose to do what I do, in return for payment and for time off on completion.
Besides, with your definition of "working" I probably only get a couple of days "off"a year.
If I wanted to work a 5 day/37 week, I would do so. That's not for everyone.
I am astonished that people see it as a virtue to work excessive hours. No one goes to their death bed thinking " I should have worked more hours"
Stockholm syndrome? 🙂
No one goes to their death bed thinking ” I should have worked more hours”
Stockholm syndrome?
Nope, I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver something. Not every job can be compartmentalised into a working day especially when you are dealing with people from all over the world. The flip side is I get well compensated and can take a flexible working day when I need it.
Yup by being a flexible employee I'm repaid by my boss being felxible, allows me time off when it suits me better or I could stick to the man and have to work to rule.
I am astonished that people see it as a virtue to work excessive hours. No one goes to their death bed thinking ” I should have worked more hours”
I think what we have here is complete lack of comprehension and understanding of how some people actually do their jobs, by being flexible, rather than inflexible and as a result the entire system breaks down.
Asking for a reason why you can't provide cover is IMO out of order.
Late to this, but...sensationalist thread title aside, I’m firmly on the side of ‘work when you need to to make your life easier/better’. My patterns are fluid, and whilst many of my colleagues (public sector) spend a lot of time filling in flexi sheets and justifying their every movement, I know that it all balances out. I work when I’m needed to, and my organisation gives me time off when I need it. Because we’re grown ups.
TJ, I’m surprised at your old fashioned views on this...I always had you down as a pragmatist.
and finally...
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Is is a great insult to end any thread 😉
TJ, I’m surprised at your old fashioned views on this
😲
TJ, I’m surprised at your old fashioned views on this
Really? He doesn't think anyone should earn more than £100k.
I guess if I was fundamentally lazy, inflexible and as dogmatic as he appears to be, then I would resent anyone who was willing to work hard and flexibly, in exchange for some other benefits.
As it happens, the current project I am working on, is using prototype engineering in hostile conditions and the objective is purely to remove the risk of future environmental damage to a pristine wilderness. Fascinating work with massive job satisfaction, when you can see first hand, what shit you are pulling out of the sea.(Although the only reason I am here is that I am deluded and suffering form Stockholm Syndrome.)
It's not connected to oil and gas or any of the other bad boy corporations out there either.
It pays well to.
who was willing to work hard and flexibly, in exchange for some other benefits.
unfortunately in certain areas of the public sector you can work hard and flexibly, put your welfare and safety at risk, be flexible, work all hours, turn out at short notice, work days without a break and there aren't any real benefits, below inflation pay rise and management will still try and stiff you, so people get hacked off and it gets reflected in posts on STW . I suspect that TJ is trying to get people to protect their rights and not sell themselves out cheaply rather than being bloody minded for the sake of it - apologies TJ if you are just bloody minded 😉
Kilo you are right
gobuchal - you really have no idea do you . I work very hard in a very demanding job. How many dying people could you cope with? I have one most days How many bereaved families could you deal with - and when the job demands it I work over my hours - once 25 hours straight.
Two examples - once the night shift should have had two staff nurses on duty - ( previous post) Only one was coming on duty and I knew that a) it would be very difficult and stressfull and b) it would be unsafe. So I phoned the management team told them to get another nurse on duty and that I would stay on duty until the ward was safe. I did also tell them I would be being paid overtime. My professional duty and morally the right thing to do. I could have gone home at ther end of my 12 hour shift but I stayed another 3 hours to ensure the safety of my patients.
Or another one - a bereaved husband. His wife died just before the end of my shift. No safety issue but I stayed until he had seen his wife and said his goodbyes. Why - because it was the right thing to do. 2 hours late home that day
Or another one
How many dying people could you cope with?
Don't know. I have dealt with 7 dead people in a 12hr shift. Do I win shit shift trumps?
I stayed another 3 hours
2 hours late home that day
And so you should have.
That email sounds very familiar. Presumably she's a junior doctor. Here are my suggestions from a old hand (people might be surprised to hear that you can be a "junior" doctor for more than a decade).
They are right that in unpredicted circumstances they can ask you to cover for the first 48 hours. I believe in the new contract this is taken as TOIL (time owing or extra pay) and not as locum pay. However, if you aren't at work they can't expect you to answer your emails, so I'd just ignore them. Harder to avoid phone calls but you could just switch her phone off over the weekend.
However, unpredicted circumstances do not apply to rota gaps due to long term sickness, maternity leave, unfilled vacancies or other things that can be predicted > 48 hours in advance. So if they are trying to cover rota gaps then this is not contractual. After 48 hours they have to find a locum.
Cover still has to fit within the working time regulations of the new contract, that also encompass the EWTD and WTD. They can't just get you to work until you drop in an emergency. You still need 11 hours rest after every shift, work no more than 8 days in a row with 48 hours off, work no more than a maximum of 48 hours per week (although TOIL might allow for this). It's complicated: I'd recommend joining the union and getting written info.
These sort of continued issues should be escalated to the guardian of safe working and also to her educational supervisor and the deanery. The deanery pay their wages if she is in a training job and they have a duty of care. If it is affecting her health then she could consider speaking to her GP but don't expect any form of confidentiality or compassion, my friend had to explain herself when she refused to do a night shift because she had terrible diabetes.
Suggest she joins the junior doctor contract forum on Facebook. It's more useful than the BMA. This sort of problem is commonly discussed on there and the head of the BMA junior doctors forum posts a lot of advice. Sadly the new contract has many loop holes which HR are keen to exploit and at times do uncontractual things.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">gobuchul
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I’m not “forced” to work 50 days without a day off. I choose in work in a specialist part of an industry that requires it.
So why do you wish the WTD applied to you, if you're so happy?
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Oh another thing: get all the doctors on her rota to write to the guardian as a group. This avoids any worry about sticking heads over the parapet. There are often a few "in my day" dicks in the department who think that the only way to work is as many hours as they can (usually because their lives are so empty that work is the only thing defines them). You find they usually aren't the best workers. There are usually plenty who manage a work life balance who will back up their juniors but might be a bit quieter but are well respected.
So why do you wish the WTD applied to you, if you’re so happy?
I don't to be honest. I am happy enough. I guess it was a weak attempt at sarcasm/humour.
I just find it very strange that some people think that checking email from time to time is "work". Especially if you are "in the middle of something". Although I would only expect it from supervisory positions/middle management and above. However, any employer or organisation who expects that, so give back in flexibility and other stuff when required. It works both ways.
I posted on here a couple of years back about a whole "restructuring" my employer was going through. We lost a lot of people, the ones left pulled hard and we have got through what seems to be the worst and we did well enough last year to get a 5% bonus.
Regarding the Op, (only 100 posts in), the email is shit and rather dumb. If your "boss" wants to get a hold of you urgently on a day off than an email is not the way to do it.
gobuchal - I just got annoyed at being called lazy and inflexible. I will go an extra mile or more for my patients which as you say is only right - although in the two cases I mentioned none of my colleagues did - they all went home. I won't go an inch to cover management incompetence. shit shift top trumps is stupid and for that I apologise
<div class="bbp-reply-author">gobuchul
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I just find it very strange that some people think that checking email from time to time is “work”.
It is work. I mean, it is 100%, by definition, undeniably work (and legally, for that matter).
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It's not very much work, generally. But it is work. And the impact isn't necessarily just the time and effort- the clear water between work and rest is very important for some people.