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My partner is getting a bit of hassle at work from the rota coordinator which to me sounds like it's verging on illegal. It's certainly unreasonable. Anyone any suggestions? Have anonymised the email below but I expect you can guess the particular public sector. Can she really be required to explain why she can't go into work on her days off? In my partners case, she's just come off a set of night shifts this morning and has made plans for the weekend so won't be going in, but is expecting some grief on Monday! Apparently they will allocate someone if there are no volunteers.
Dear all
Due to sickness absence, we require rota cover for some bullshit which we've failed to make contingency for, today 5pm to 9pm, Saturday 8am to 9pm and Sunday 8am to 9pm (this weekend).
THIS IS EMERGENCY COVER - if you are able to provide cover, please contact me as soon as possible.
If you are unable to provide cover you still need to respond with the reasons why before 12pm today.
If you can provide some of the cover please let me know
Many thanks,
Tosspot Rota Co-ordinator
Ah, I see the forum formatting is still as good as ever...
Depends as some public sectors have a tied in clause where leave and days off can be cancelled. It’s shit but sadly part of what would have been signed up for.
Dear tosspot.
I’m busy.
Love, mrs mowgli.
Can she really be required to explain why she can’t go into work on her days off?
I imagine if the emergency cover is to prevent an actual emergency - ie a real risk of harm rather than ‘we won’t be able to open the reference section of the library’ Then asking for a reason isn’t unreasonable
in the absence of anyone able to volunteer they have to choose between the people who can most readily be called in
so the choice might be between reasons of
”there’s a sale on at primark and I want to be first in the queue”
”I’m at the bedside of a dying loved one”
”I’m in another country for the weekend”
”I’m drunk”
“I’m doing another job”
”I’m in jail but I should be out on bail by Monday”
once the timeframe for volunteeeing has passed it looks like there’s very little time left for negotiating so knowing who is unable rather than just unwilling to help us probably quite wise
”I’m at the bedside of a dying loved one”
”I’m in jail but I should be out on bail by Monday”
Those are good, I'll pass them on, thanks 🙂
today 5pm to 9pm
What time was the email sent? I doubt it's illegal to ask for unavailablity reasons, unreasonable certainly, however if action was taken because given reason (or no reply) was not deemed satisfactory...
If you work for the Health service, Fire service, Police and other public sectors it is to be expected. Asking for reasons why not is so you can be discounted in the case of having to call someone in.
The thing is with emails that cc in all is to not take them so personally. Just answer it with the facts and forget about it.
If you work for the Health service
Health Service is pretty protective of working time regulations. I can ring staff to see if they want overtime but no way would I send an email out like that.
Oh and the OPs thread title is slightly misleading given no one is being dragged in.
I'd just ignore the email. Sending it this morning and requiring a response by midday on your day off is taking the piss.
As bad as it seems, it could be worse.
My Wife's Tosspot Rota Coordinator has a much more laissez faire attitude to it.
People go off sick (long term stress being an all too common damning indictment of the state of affairs) or leave and can't be replaced (another, it's seen a very good job in her 'industry' and there's usually a long list of people who've applied or shown interest in the past waiting to join when jobs come up).
Which leaves big gaps in the rota, it's usually up to the person who finds themselves working a shift on their own, which ranges from lonely, to difficult, to impossible and occasionally down right dangerous depending on what's on that day, to beg their colleagues to work over-time to cover it.
I have to assume she's trying to save costs as often remarks "well, it's not that busy" if someone finds themselves alone in work.
Still, no one's died, yet. It's a distinct possibility though.
Oh and the OPs thread title is slightly misleading given no one is being dragged in.
OK, not dragged perhaps, but it's been made clear that someone will be allocated to cover the weekend and if they don't turn up it would be treated as unauthorised absence.
Who even looks at their email on their days off? If it's a real emergency as opposed to something mildly inconvenient for someone, then I'm sure someone will ring up.
Who even looks at their (work) email on their days off?
Absolutely this.
His wife was at work last night, maybe she got the email while on shift.
just off night shift you say
emailed this morning looking for a response by mid day .
so when they call just say you weren't aware of their email due to the fact you were in a statutory rest period after your shift.
Who even looks at their email on their days off? If it’s a real emergency as opposed to something mildly inconvenient for someone, then I’m sure someone will ring up.
This. Unless your contract mandates that you check emails frequently when you're not at work. Doesn't matter if it was sent to home or work email, neither is guaranteed to be seen. As long as they've not put a read receipt or other tracking device in it.....
for me any work email can only be accessed on a work device (phone/computer with all their security stuff installed) and when I am outside of work I was not required to log on to check email. If I was required to check this was classed either as work or on call with appropriate payments.
my contract did say in the event of an emergency I would be called and if required have to return to work. I have seen then book taxis and flights to collect people from thier vacation but they always paid for it and then some.
there will be a contract and employment handbook that details everything they believe they can do.
Public sector here, what does her contracct say, my contract specifically states I can’t be forced to work overtime. Never been an issue for me as our emergencies tend to be proper emergencies so I’d attend but when management have tried to pull strokes this restriction has been mentioned
Who even looks at their email on their days off? If it’s a real emergency as opposed to something mildly inconvenient for someone, then I’m sure someone will ring up.
I have a basic Nokia work phone that can't receive emails. I keep refusing my employer's offer of an iphone - I don't need one because I won't check my emails on my days off. I leave my work phone on permanently so people can contact me if it's genuinely important.
I’d just ignore the email. Sending it this morning and requiring a response by midday on your day off is taking the piss.
This. I'd then reply sarcastically on Monday that I am unavailable as I can't travel back in time.
Deat tosspot,
Sorry I was sleeping (and also didn't check my emails until evening). I hope you found someone to cover.
Loadsa luv,
Mrs Mowgli
we require rota cover for some bullshit which we’ve failed to make contingency for
Depending on what this actually says, it sounds a little like the rota coordinator effed up. "We've failed to" do something (is it even a "we") and now you have to reply instantly or there'll be trouble.
For a number of roles, I would expect days off to (reasonably) be cancelled at short notice to provide cover. I wouldn't expect night shifts to be immediately followed by days in order to provide the cover though.
it’s been made clear that someone will be allocated to cover the weekend and if they don’t turn up it would be treated as unauthorised absence.
In a separate email?
TBH I'd tend to ignore any email that referenced 12pm.
Is that to a work email or personal?
For me I wouldn't check work emails outside of work hours so I'd just respond when back in work. But as above, just respond too late saying sorry, busy, didn't see email. Email is a pretty poor communication method for urgent matters where a quick reponse is required.
If she works in a hospital and people are going to die then maybe consider the benefits of going in.
If the mail was sent when she wasn't at work, "sorry, I didn't see the email as I wasn't working."
If the mail was sent when she could reasonably be expected to have read it, "sorry, I'm unable to cover the shift due to personal reasons." It's no-one else's business what she's doing with her free time and frankly they've got a brass neck to be asking.
She should of course be flexible - it's probably written into her contract that "reasonable" cover / overtime is expected. So long as she doesn't always say no then she's got every right not to jump at such short notice.
Work / life balance, innit.
Reply on Thursday saying you've just noticed this email in your spam folder 😉
Jesus! What a crap manager!
How to get peoples back up!
E-mail should have been this.........
"Hi, Bob, John, and Sarah. I know you guys are just off a shift but lazy bugger Ryan has just called in "sick" again. I'm in a bit of a pickle and thought you might like some extra money. Any chance you can cover some of the following days?
Drop me a line by 12 if you can. Otherwise I'll call some agency staff in. We will obviously pay any overtime you do at double-bubble and try and work out some time in lieu.
Sorry to contact you at home. You guys already do more than your fair share as it is.
Cheers guys. Hope to catch you later.
PS.... It's my turn for "Cake Friday." Double choc-chip Victoria sponge OK?
Double choc-chip Victoria sponge OK?
To which the correct reply is: "No. You're dead to me.." 🙂
I don't know about any of that, but with that sort of nickname Ms Sponge sounds like a lady I'd very much like to meet.
dear toss-pot rota co-ordinator.
For future reference could you advise which part of my employment contract stipulates you can force me to work on my day off or change my rota without reasonable notice. Saves me asking the internet, thanks.
please contact me as soon as possible.
I think that settles it.
From the content of the email and what’s been said I would assume she is a hospital doctor?
Yes it’s badly worded, but shows the pressure everyone is under in the system. It is not due to bad planning, it’s a fact that there are not enough doctors.
No it’s not uncommon for doctors to get emails asking them to work at short notice. She can either accept or decline, however doctors have a duty of care which is written in to the contract
i like some of the ridiculous comments above, doctors are routinely asked to work different shifts at short notice. I bet the same people above are the ones that moan that doctors are over paid
Bloody weird world this public sector
Drop me a line by 12 if you can. Otherwise I’ll call some agency staff in. We will obviously pay any overtime you do at double-bubble and try and work out some time in lieu.
Except the government have put caps on pay rates for both overtime and agency so you can’t get the staff in.
You are right though badly worded, however the rota coordinator prob earns 18K max, has management almost blaming them for not filling the rota, and then clinicians having a go at them for not providing staff/ sub standard staff
Most doctors read their emails whether at work or not, they care about people and their jobs. If you have been caring for a patient in the week, you then don’t want them to die / condition to deteriorate due to no doctor being around.
It is know that some hospitals are routinely at or below dangerous levels of staffing.
???
I don't understand all this talk about her being a Doctor. Last I heard... Mrs Mowgli was a Librarian.
Yeah she has a LittD.
Lol well fair enough sounds just like the sort of stuff doctors get asked routinely
What we have to remember is that librarians need their scheduled rest days. Otherwise the quality of shushing, and book-stacking can decline significantly. A shortage of librarians IS due to bad planning...
I wouldn't want to spend the weekend in a library which routinely denied its staff time to recover from a busy and mentally-exhausting role.
All she needs to do is pop in to work and look up the answer. I suppose she'll need a disguise though in case tosspot's in - maybe go as a nurse or doctor ?
I wouldn’t want to spend the weekend in a library which routinely denied its staff time to recover from a busy and mentally-exhausting role.
I just got got back from the library and it was pandemonium. Well as much as it possibly could be. There was a queue for assistance!
Sounds like the care industry. So not nhs as such just private contractors taking the piss out of staff And then wondering why they can't recruit new staff.
Unless they had spoken to me on the phone , i'd ignore it. If they make a fuss just say i never received it/my internet was down/went into spam/was out whatever. sounds like the overbearing and self important cockwombles that infest hmrc.
Surely there isn’t a clause saying you have to be available and read emails 24/7, so a quick ‘do not send read receipt’ and ignore?
just ignore it unless she is officially on call. Very few instances in public sector would you have an obligation to cover and certainly not in healthcare.
Bloody weird world this public sector
Having worked in both, that's how I feel about the private sector.
Why would you open/respond to work emails while off?
Work - clock off - two fingers to work, get hammered, blow pay, forget about boring work until you have to clock back on!
I've read that email again well the dramatic version. It seems all they are asking is who can help out with some emergency cover, could be due to absence or anything. All they want to know is if you're wife is available. No expectations to go in, no expectations to read the email a bit blunt asking for a reply but that's it. Seems reasonable to ask who is available. We use SMS if caught low on cover or in some cases a phonecall.
Why would you open/respond to work emails while off?
Because for 10 mins effort I can keep things running smoothly, it means I have a better first day back and less shit to deal with. I also care about what I am doing as it reflects on my job as a whole and my relationship with my customers without who I would have no job.
Mike that’s not the attitude to have you’re supposed to stick your fingers up and stamp your feet.
I’d tend to ignore any email that referenced 12pm
12pm is just about acceptable to me if it's intended to mean midnight
there is no such thing as 12 pm. Its either 12 midnight or 12 midday
TJ, I'm in agreement with what the NPL says (including the last sentence, so hope you agree):
Another convention sometimes used is that, since 12 noon is by definition neither ante meridiem (before noon) nor post meridiem (after noon), then 12 a.m. refers to midnight at the start of the specified day (00:00) and 12 p.m. to midnight at the end of that day (24:00). Given this ambiguity, the terms 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. should be avoided.
We have this sort of stuff all the time. There's a standby rota, but if bad weather is expected, then they can ask for general availability. That basically means, if the shit hits the fan, is it worth calling you. I still have the option to say no, be drunk, go out. Or I can go in, my choice. If they want me waiting on a peg, on the off chance, it needs a standby retainer.
This is usually organised by sms.
It could probably have been worded better but is Mrs M as wound up by it as you imply or is it really you who’s p’d off? In many places people provide short notice cover because they care about the job they do and the people they do it for or because they like the people they work with and have some empathy for the chaos that others would have to cope with if they weren’t there. Of course if your job is just a means to earn money you may struggle to understand this. In my experience partners are often more put out about staff working extra than the staff themselves are.
if Mrs M does indeed work in a Library you may find it hard to justify the priority for this versus say a doctor or firefighter getting the same request. But consider:
- old Mrs Smith who comes to the library once a week for some of her only social interaction, she arrives and finds the place closed.
- young davie who lives in a hostel having been made homeless last year when he lost his job. He needs to access a computer to check which hours he has been provisionally allocated his new zero hrs contract.
- Chantelle who’s single mum leaves her at the library when she goes to do her second job, so that Chantelle can do her homework (which her mum can’t really help with anyway) finds it locked and having no place to go is wandering the streets.
- if it happens lots, it becomes easier to justify cutting the hours of the library because either staffing it is too hard, or when it was shut there wasn’t an outcry
In many places people provide short notice cover because they care about the job they do and the people they do it for or because they like the people they work with and have some empathy for the chaos that others would have to cope with if they weren’t there. Of course if your job is just a means to earn money you may struggle to understand this.
+1 Both my wife (NHS) and I (private sector) regularly work extra hours to cover for variations in workload, staff absence, weather impacts etc. That's usually requested via a phone call or through Messenger.
Yup well put Poly.
I sometimes work extra hours but only if I can dress up as a nurse, doctor or librarian - requests made via tinder
A request is fine, an instruction is not.
I recently had a similar sort of situation. I rosterd to be off friday - monday inclusive. Either late thursday or on frideay my roster was changed so I was working monday. I got an unexpected phone call on monday that I should be at work. I simply replied that I wasn't and wasn't coming in as I was on the shores of a loch in the highlands. Managers mistake, no come back on me.
The request is terribly worded but the stupid thing is the contact via email for something urgent. Yes some people do check emails out of work but there is no guarantee of what time they will if they will etc. Could be having a long lie in and bath etc if it's important to get a answer from someone phone or maybe WhatsApp / messenger type thing if people are known to use it.
The manager is amateurish.
@NBT - I consider my life has been enriched this afternoon, thanks to the disvocery of Tom Gauld cartoons. Thanks!
@OP - if that was my Public Sector employers I'd a) not have read the email b) not consider working a shift after a night and c) not dream of compromising a rest day, unless of course it was a proper flap. Your wife may have a greater sense of duty and responsibility than I do...
Because for 10 mins effort I can keep things running smoothly, it means I have a better first day back and less shit to deal with.
That sound like a shit handover and shit cover to me. Unless you are a sole trader you should be able to take time off knowing that someone else can cover properly. If not, the model doesn’t sound sustainable. What if, heaven forbid, two of you were to be off at the same time?
Non work time is non work time, end of.
In many places people provide short notice cover because they care about the job they do and the people they do it for or because they like the people they work with and have some empathy for the chaos that others would have to cope with if they weren’t there. Of course management sometimes dress up failing to roster staff, recruit and retain staff, wanting to pay overtime, getting specialist staff to cover toss such as office moves as an emergency and come up with bs emails asking you to explain why you don't want to turn out on a rest day
[i] Yes it’s badly worded, but shows the pressure everyone is under in the system. It is not due to bad planning, it’s a fact that there are not enough doctors. [/i]
Surely "not enough Doctors" still falls under bad planning on some level?
I'm not going to go into specifics on here. A bit of background that might go some way to explain the annoyance is that this email (or variation of) has been sent out 3 times in the last month, similarly threatening and overly dramatic. Typically a junior member of staff is nominated after no-one volunteers, as they are more likely to comply and are not quite so burned out. It's common for them to be sent home at 11am on a Friday, having started that morning, and told to come back at 8pm for the night shift instead. As a one off I could understand it, but it's a regular occurrence due to massive under funding and generally incompetent managers which has pushed everyone beyond what's a reasonable amount of flexibility and overtime.
The suggestions of lack of commitment to career, colleagues and work output are way wide of the mark so that really doesn't come into it. I don't know anyone who's sacrificed so much of their life for their job, for so little thanks or reward.
Would mrs mowgli be interested in joining the water fairies as despite there still being some toss pottery in the fire service they don’t guilt trip you if you have the audacity to take leave.
I feel for her, nothing worse than being manipulated by the job you love.
some of that is breach of contract. some illegal as it breaches the WTD
time to raise a group greivance?
That sound like a shit handover and shit cover to me. Unless you are a sole trader you should be able to take time off knowing that someone else can cover properly. If not, the model doesn’t sound sustainable.
Small consultancy, I manage and own projects and for 10 mins effort I can sleep easy. It's quite normal in a small place. Something as simple as confirming meeting availability or responding to a quick question or directing somebody to the right person.
It's not bothering me as it just keeps things working. If I was going to be 100% unavailable I might do a full handover and try and plan projects accordingly but there isn't the need.
I'm happy enough to know I have a job that gives me flexibility at times, it means work time is sometimes non work time so its a deal I'm happy to make.
It’s common for them to be sent home at 11am on a Friday, having started that morning, and told to come back at 8pm for the night shift instead.
She can tell them to get ****ed.
The suggestions of lack of commitment to career, colleagues and work output are way wide of the mark so that really doesn’t come into it.
I think you've misunderstood what was said.
Mike - it may be normal but you are allowing the management to use you. Time off is time off. Its not a rest day if you are answering emails so possible breach of WTD.
Mike – it may be normal but you are allowing the management to use you. Time off is time off. Its not a rest day if you are answering emails so possible breach of WTD.
He's not he's choosing do it, you can opt to work overtime, toil all under WTD.
Some parts of the WTD you cannot opt out of. Compulsory rest time being one. 11 hours rest between shifts being another. ( over simplified) so if he answres an email morning and evening of bo9th days over the weekend he is in breach of the WTD by not having a day off.
so if he answres an email morning and evening of bo9th days over the weekend he is in breach of the WTD by not having a day off.
No he's not TJ. Yes 11 hours off between shifts but checking an email for 10 mins on a Saturday and Sunday really isn't breaking it.
I would say it was. Its not a rest day if you are answering emails.
The law says otherwise. He's volunteering to do it to keep on top things, that isn't breaking the WTD.
Cougar nails it- I either didn't read it, or I'm unavailable for personal reasons. I'd be tempted to put something passive-aggressive about the length of notice, but it'd be better not to really, because that might just lead to more demands but with a little more notice which'd be slightly less easy to nope.
Some parts of the WTD you cannot opt out of. Compulsory rest time being one. 11 hours rest between shifts being another. ( over simplified) so if he answres an email morning and evening of bo9th days over the weekend he is in breach of the WTD by not having a day off.
Wish it applied to me.
I'm currently on Day 49 without a day off.
At least 12 hours day and usually longer.
It will probably run to around 58 days before I finish.
I am a full time employee, employed by a UK entity, UK national and the WTD does not apply.
I would say it was. Its not a rest day if you are answering emails.
so if he answres an email morning and evening of bo9th days over the weekend he is in breach of the WTD by not having a day off.
TBH, shit like that is playing in the hands of the DM readers.
If you want to undermine workers rights and discourage flexible employment and management, that is a good way to go about it.
No mention of what job but if a junior doctor it used to be within the contract that cover must be provided for absence less than 48 hours notice. More than 48 hours not so.
Which meant employer could effectively say either someone volunteers or we volunteer someone. That said if been on nights have to have 24 hours off minimum after finishing so not eligible.