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id like a bit of advice on behalf of my lad please, who's asking how long his boss can make him work for per day.
there are 2 questions id like to ask, one of them is a problem of his own making, the other not so.
1. hes working for a landscaping company, has handed his notice in to go back to painting and decorating, and his boss (he says) is now being unreasonable.
him and his work buddy are currently in the city cutting grass verges, one of their mowers has broken, the boss says that happens in this weather, im not bringing another, youll have to stay til 9 to get it done. he started at half 7. had a quick look at working time directive and it implies the max anyone can work is 13 hrs (hes 19) but can a boss force you to do this if you dont normally work those hours? he doesnt have a written contract.
2. this problems his own fault. he cant drive and whilst on a grass verge, his workmate asked him to move the van. when he said he couldnt drive he was told ah its easy, just put yer foot on that pedal, do this, do that etc. foolishly he did, and scraped the wing against somethings. his boss has called them both into a meeting next week, my lad thinks he'll try and dock them the cost of repairs, maybe a grand or so. can he?
my guess is he cant, yes its a bollocking/the sack or whatever, but that you cant dock repair costs out of wages. one part of me thinks the company will be insured anyway, but then again are they insured if an uninsured driver prangs it?
yes hes a donut, but could you let us know what he can and cant do legally please?
thanks
When does the new job start? Bailing out seems a good option.
1. Seems unreasonable.
2. Depends on what his contract says I would have thought. Oh, wait a minute....
Is he being paid to work the extra hours?
1) No he has to give notice and can't force overtime on him.
2) No he can't make him pay does his boss not have insurance? He can dismiss him though.
Sounds like the guy is an arse.
The boss is a numpty and on dodgy ground here. Without a written contract his virtual / assumed contract is his normal working conditions / what the norm in the company is.
Personally my advice to the lad would be to walk away. Be prepared for the boss to be an arse over unpaid wages tho leading to a loss or having to sue. I take it he is in a union?
I'm surprised that the boss hasn't issued a written contract which sets out terms and conditions. This is as much to protect the employer as the employee.
If the working hours exceed 48 hours per week then your son should have voluntarily signed an opt out from this EU regulation, without it the employer may be on shaky ground. Also, does your son bring home payslips which detail pay, tax/NIC/pension deductions and any overtime pay?
if he doesn't have a contract, why isn't he just walking away now? (Assuming he hasn't worked there long(?).)
If the working hours exceed 48 hours per week then your son should have voluntarily signed an opt out from this EU regulation, without it the employer may be on shaky ground.
That's for employees to work overtime not for an allow an employer to make you work longer.
I take it he is in a union?
Does it really sound to you like a situation where the workforce is unionised?
phew, was expecting a bit of flaming over my lad being a bit of a tool, hes seems to have come out of it ok on here tho.... 😉
to answer a few questions.....
new job starts next week
yes hes paid for whatever hours he does, he just doesnt want to work til 9 tonight (or later if the job still isnt done)
no, hes not in a union.
drac, thats what id thought, but what is overtime if there isnt a contract? reading tj's answer, its his normal working day.
the insurance is what i dont know. id say they would be insured, theyre a big enough company, but not sure if insurance covers 'employees doing daft things that cost the company money'.
Personally my advice to the lad would be to walk away. Be prepared for the boss to be an arse over unpaid wages tho leading to a loss or having to sue.
thats exactly what i told him my thoughts are.
thanks
drac, thats what id thought, but what is overtime if there isnt a contract? reading tj's answer, its his normal working day.
If he doesn't reduce the hours eithe by allowing a late start or early finish another day then he's forcing overtime.
the insurance is what i dont know. id say they would be insured, theyre a big enough company, but not sure if insurance covers 'employees doing daft things that cost the company money'.
He stil can't make him pay unless he did it deliberately.
No contract, tell him to walk. If there's no contract he can't be held accountable to it. How much notice has he given? If he's been there less than a month he can walk, if not he only has to give a week.
he cant drive ......foolishly he did, and scraped the wing
Bit of a tool. Flamed.
if he doesn't have a contract, why isn't he just walking away now? (Assuming he hasn't worked there long(?).)
i spose cos he wants to do the decent thing. i think some people advised just to jack it in cos theres no contract so no official notice period, but he asked his boss and was told 2 weeks, so thats what hes giving. and no, he hasnt worked there long.
EDIT:
Also, does your son bring home payslips which detail pay, tax/NIC/pension deductions and any overtime pay?
sorry missed that. yes he has payslips with all that malarkey on them i think, but i dont think he gets (or hasnt so far) any overtime.
Sounds like boss knows he's leaving and so is wringing every last ounce out of him before he goes.
I take it he's not on a massive amount of cash.
If the extra hours are indeed unpaid and bring him below the minimum wage then his boss is batting on a much stickier wicket.
he's 19 let him fight his own battle
We all have to learn and his old man sorting it out won't get him anywhere.
Harsh lessons but lessons none the less.
No contract of employment, simply walk away.
If the colleague is an employee and instructed him to move the van, then it's his fault if he knew he couldn't drive.
The boss can then go to the court with his 'evidence' of damage....
Sounds like boss knows he's leaving and so is wringing every last ounce out of him before he goes.
s'wat id guess too, get him to work his notice then tell him hes docking the damage so doesnt owe him anything. could be wrong tho....
I take it he's not on a massive amount of cash.If the extra hours are indeed unpaid and bring him below the minimum wage then his boss is batting on a much stickier wicket.
no, he hasnt got a lot. its minimum wage but he does get paid all his hours so thats not really a concern.
my guess as to what will happen, could be entirely wrong tho: boss gets him to work all the hours he can for the rest of the week, don't pay / underpay him for this week "because you damaged the van".
Sounds an odd situation, was he on some sort of zero hours contract and then just paid for the hours he did? If so then not sure how long the working day would actually be but it's up to your son to decide how long he wants to work for each day and up for the company to decide if that's long enough or if they need to get someone else.
Unless he desperately needs the extra hours being paid then tell him to work the amount of hours he wants to work each day, not the amount of hours his boss wants him to work (but to let his boss know up front so he can plan around it).
Not sure about the van thing, he probably doesn't have a case to hold back wages but he may still do so (and if there's not much wages being held back it might not be worth the hassle of fighting it), I can't see how he can bill your son for the damage though without taking him to court first (and getting a judgement in his favour, which seems unlikely).
I'd be careful of forcing anything over the van damage - if he's unlicenced his boss may say he was driving without consent and then it could get legal.
Isn't the driving without permission/licence/insurance a reason for the son to want to leave on agreeable grounds? Assuming your son and his mate don't intend to lie about who was driving then presumably the company has grounds by which to recover any costs they suffer? I don't imagine their insurance will pay for damage incurred whilst under the control of an uninsured/unlicenced driver.
Whilst a reasonable employer wouldn't look to pursue this with the Police or via a civil action, I'm inclined to think he's financially liable for the consequences of his poor decision. If I was the employer looking at a £1k bill in these circumstances I'd be wondering why he ought not to pay.
Good luck though, we've all done daft things when young and hope his new job goes well too.
Boss will probably do a fudge and dock his overtime or this week's wages for van damages, so he's probably not going to get paid anyway. Might as well kick back and relax for a couple of days before starting his new job.
Maybe they could offer to pay off the damage with a 3way split/reduction in wages?
There are three dafties in this story. Naw?
He can't drive, i.e. he does not have a licence ? If that's the case the van is not insured. Moving it was idiotic but you know that and hopefully he has learnt his lesson.
If the mower is broken I don't see why your son has to work more hours for same pay, employer needs to provide the tools for the job.
OP your son should just walk away and forget any pay, he may find the employer sues him for the van but I doubt it.
...[b]whilst on a grass verge[/b], his workmate asked him to move the van. when he said he couldnt drive he was told ah its easy, just put yer foot on that pedal, do this, do that etc. foolishly he did, and scraped the wing...
The specifics of [b]exactly[/b] where he did that might be relevant to deepreddave's point about driving uninsured etc. - if he pulled the van along a bit of grassy ground somewhere and stuffed it, that's potentially much less concerning than if he pulled it off the kerb onto a road and then stuffed it into a lamp post.
The driving without permission bit I wouldn't think would apply in this circumstance, sounds like the colleague was in control of the van on behalf of the firm and specifically asked him to move it, so it's not without permission, quite the opposite. The company on the other hand has quite a decent incentive to not make a fuss about it - not only their insurer but also the HSE would take a dim view of the company getting someone completely untrained to operate a motor vehicle, whether or not any road traffic offences were involved.
However, I think the most pertinent point on the thread is this one
he's 19 let him fight his own battleWe all have to learn and his old man sorting it out won't get him anywhere.
Harsh lessons but lessons none the less.