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Construction company we work for have mini busses and 7.5 ton trucks both using tacho cards. Employer wants drivers to sign a declaration saying if we breach hours weight limits etc we are solely responsible. Can they enforce this? Is it legally allowed?
Any help on this appreciated ta
Do the employers have an operators license?
Not a truck driver or such like, but surely as the driver you're responsible even without signing anything. Bit like if I drive my car for work but get caught speeding, I can't try and blame the company.
It is the drivers responsibility, but it doesn't matter what you sign, if you break tacho laws, they'll come after the company as well.
Yes they have an operators license and Iv worked with them for a long time and never had to sign anything like this.
Not a truck driver or such like, but surely as the driver you’re responsible even without signing anything.
Vehicles over 3.5t both the driver and the operator are responsible.
If the operator books in loads that are too heavy or schedule days that are too long then they have to take the responsibility for that
So should I sign it and keep driving?
Surely they can’t insist it’s signed
Regardless of what the company may think, if a driver breaks the rules the company will get done too.
This sounds to me like a middle management idea, someone who doesn’t really understand how serious tacho rules are.
Signing a bit of paper will change **** all.
So should I sign it and keep driving?
Surely they can’t insist it’s signed
You can call the DVSA and ask them
https://www.gov.uk/contact-dvsa/y/vehicle-operator-licensing
someone within the company will be the named operator and should know the difference between their arse and their elbow. It seems like a dodgy thing for the employee to ask for - especially so if its coming from the operator themselves.
Who's name is on the operates licence?
Reagrdless of a signed piece of paper, any wrongdoings by you and they're also culpable.
Any infringements you incur will affect the companies OCRS score which can affect how often you are targeted by the dvsa for spot checks etc.
I'd suggest you have a proper look through what total carrying weight your vehicle has and be strict as to how its loaded.
Things like defect checks/exceeding drivers hours/using correct modes/safe loading/not overloading are the main things you can control anyway.
What is the tare weight of your 7.5t vehicle? What is the maximum permissable load? Do you know how much equipment and bodies it takes to get to the max gross weight?
I'd start there before even entertaining signing anything personally.
Are they decent for keeping vehicles in safe/working condition?
transporter13
It’s complicated. T/M and O licence holder left the company. Now an independent in changing how things are run. Vehicles kept well. No overloading. Just gets me why would they insist on signing this? I’d there anywhere I can go for advice on this and a couple of other issues?
One for your union
Employer wants drivers to sign a declaration saying if we breach hours weight limits etc we are solely responsible. Can they enforce this? Is it legally allowed?
No, they cannot move their legal responsibilities onto you. Even if you sign it it will be completely worthless and will not protect them in any way.
It is the drivers responsibility, but it doesn’t matter what you sign, if you break tacho laws, they’ll come after the company as well.
Correct. While it is ultimately the driver's responsibility to ensure the vehicle they are driving is road legal, they are licensed to drive it in it's current state (passengers/load type, weight), safe and loaded correctly the employer cannot wash their hands of their responsibility. The employer needs to have a robust training system, a means of monitoring driver's hours and load weights and also demonstrate that they have actively taken actions to remedy any issues. The DVSA (formerly VOSA) will do roadside checks and if a driver is found to have broken the rules the next step is to visit the company concerned. If further issues are found they will then add that company on their 'Watch List' (that OCRS score transporter13 mentions is used as a guide for the inspectors on the road but they also use knowledge like drivers to watch for, O license holders with poor reputations who move companies etc) and you then have the situation where those companies vehicles will be stopped more regularly.
I've been through this when an old colleague got pulled for being overweight by a big margin in a 7.5t Sprinter (weighed at 8.7t) and a VOSA inspector was at our depot that afternoon checking every driver's paperwork and the company monitoring systems. I 'got away' with just a small fine for an error on my tacho card - left it in the machine at the end of shift so didn't show my break but I had manual entries to show my mistake - but others ended up with massive fines. The O license holder on branch lost his job and the new holder had to put up with thorough inspections regularly until they were happy he was doing things correctly. Bear in mind this was when I worked for G4S carrying cash so we had extra regulations from the Bank of England but it's not unknown for other regular companies to go through the same thing. Since I've been doing agency work for HGV's I've been at two companies who were on the DVSA 'Watch List' and got stopped with both and given a thorough grilling. I've also been unlucky to have been stopped at a random stop on my 3rd day in a truck by an inspector, 3 stops in 5 months! Lots of drivers go their whole career without a single one. But that doesn't mean you won't get stopped, always cover yourself, acting as if you will be stopped at the next layby. I did ask the last inspector whether they were looking out for me and she said no, I've just been really unlucky in the companies I've done shifts for.
Yes they have an operators license and Iv worked with them for a long time and never had to sign anything like this.
Sounds like a new manager somewhere in the chain is trying to pass the buck from themselves. I'd focus on finding out who and why as it usually means that they are trying to bend the rules somewhere and want to make sure any issues can be blamed on someone else. In the meantime make absolutely sure you know the rules applicable to what you do and keep thorough records. Don't be afraid to refuse to drive/work/carry anything if you know it's wrong or you're not happy. If in doubt don't drive. I know it's very hard to refuse when you have a manager yelling at you to get on with it but if you're breaking the rules then there's nothing they can do to force you without getting themselves potentially in a lot of trouble.
Have a look through this link
https://www.gov.uk/being-a-goods-vehicle-operator/what-happens-if-you-break-the-terms-of-your-licence
It clearly shows what the o licence holder is responsible for... No amount of signing paperwork will put all the onus on yourself.
Who is in charge of the cpc training at your place? .. Id start there and if no joy, call the dvsa and ask for clarification.
Employer wants drivers to sign a declaration saying if we breach hours weight limits etc we are solely responsible. Can they enforce this? Is it legally allowed?
What do they mean by solely responsible? Do they mean that you'd have to pick up the fine/penalty for any wrong doing on their part - no they can't pass the buck like that OR are they emphasising that as the driver of the vehicle you have the right to stop driving or refuse a load that you believe is likely to be a problem and if you don't do that they won't be paying your fine. The latter would not only be acceptable but might even be good practise if they've worded it in such a way its encouraging a safe culture rather than passing the buck to you.
The criminal courts will have little interest in any paperwork like that you've signed so it wouldn't cause me any concerns to sign it. In fact, if it is the former, the court might see it as evidence of them not taking their responsibilities seriously on any causing and permitting charge (it could be construed as "do what you like, don't blame us") and hammer them harder if it came to light. I suspect if that is the way its framed the transport commissioner would also not be impressed if they tried to say, "but toomba signed this bit of paper saying it wasn't our responsibility".
One for your union
Unless its a large company I doubt this is a particularly useful solution.