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Got a new General Manager at work as we were pretty much rudderless for the last 2 years.
As soon as he became GM ( was day book keeper ) all of my 11 years of experience count for zilch, and all his previous 4 years of knowledge seem to have disappeared.
We have been given new contracts of employment. If signed we would be liable to work weekends as and when asked to , for free ( we do now but its totally voluntary and earns us zero pay but we count it as 'hours') .
We would be liable to work Bank holidays , with no overtime payment or time off in lieu. We would also be liable for basically unlimited overtime as required, for no extra pay or again no time off in lieu. Our hours and place of work can also be changed at a whim.
Sick pay has been discretionary . Its now SSP only, but I work in the food industry and we are not supposed to work with even a cold. His arguement is 'Its costing the business too much money' but we have never employed a temp when a member of staff has been off sick. Other staff member have to pick up the slack.
Pensions . Basic minimum only , no allowance for employee extra contributions ( which have to be matched by the employer ) and brought in on the last day possible next year. We're all in.
The new contract also has a clause that our employment can be ended by the employer with no notice. Nice.
Small business with 5 employees ,, no HR dept or Union. I like the job but this is totally against the way we have been working for the last decade. Everyone works fairly hard and there are no slackers or dead wood. People put in the hours and there has been a degree of flexability, with the understanding extra hours or BH working could been taken as time owed when quiet.
Its a change of working practices that , once signed could be used to radically change the way we work, is hugely biased toward the employer , and has zero allowance for any overtime whatsoever.
Just pee'd off with the one sidedness of it all and the way we could be manipulated with ' You will work this Sunday , its in your contract YOU signed ' .
buggeration
start working on your CV
you should be glad youre not a teacher.
dont sign it............
That contract sounds illegal to me. But I'm no expert, do Citizen's Advice dish out info on employment rights etc ?
If no unions - and some give advice for non-members to drum up support - try CAB
Does your current contract have non compete and non poaching clauses ?
If not why don't all 5 of you naff off and setup your own company.
I mean obviously I would never have done that 😯
what do the rest of the employees say? can you be replaced easily?
leave.
Citizens Advice. Don't sign it. Although if you turn up to work after the stated start date of your new contract then you will have been deemed to have accepted the new terms.
Sounds like a case for constructive dismissal if you think the new terms are beyond reasonable and or you don't have a consultation period. 90 days I think. Employers can change anything they like, they just have to do it by the correct means.
CV time I think.
***I'm not a lawyer.
The new contract also has a clause that our employment can be ended by the employer with no notice. Nice.
This is an example of a contract being unfair. By law you are allowed a notice period. I'd get advice and do not sign anything, if you ever do have it backdated to your original date of employment.
You have employment rights as you've been there more than 2 years. If they fire you off then you'll have them at a tribunal
At least you're not an ophthalmologist...
Unless you are, in which case, good luck with the school fees...
[url= http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4096 ]http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4096[/url]
If we start with the notice period...
It would seem the contract is illegal
[url= http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1373 ]http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1373[/url]
moving onto hours, depending could be on dodgy ground.
You say GM is he the boss, or an employee, can you go over his head, where have these contracts come from?
Mind you probably best walking, just figure out the best, for you not the company, way of doing it.
Although if you turn up to work after the stated start date of your new contract then you will have been deemed to have accepted the new terms.
Really?
***I'm not a lawyer.
Ahhh....
Don't sign the new contract dispute it and you will stay on your old one, don't forget they need you more than you need them good staff are hard to find. He sounds like he is throwing his weight around and he needs a reality check.
Good luck
That' stinks. I'm with NZCol, 5 of you, 1 of him, take the initiative. This will depend on the mental and perhaps financial robustness of you colleagues. Even if you go the legal or citizen advice route, he's shown his true colours......you honestly want to work for him when it sounds like the 5 of you scratch each others back in an honest, informal and workable manner?
Every cloud....
Wish you well 8)
Although if you turn up to work after the stated start date of your new contract then you will have been deemed to have accepted the new terms.
Not true they can claim this but it is pretty hard as you will say you are working to a contract you both signed and agreed to and they argue you are working to the one you have not signed.
IANAL but which do you think carries most weight?
Agree you are getting into constructive dismissal grounds and many of the clauses mentioned above are illegal which would likely render the contract meaningless and obviously unfair.
I would advise meeting with them [ make sure you have a separate copy of the contract off site and off their server. Do all correspondence by e-mail. Make sure you say what they said in the e-mail [ if they do not deny it is evidence]and seeing what they really want.
I suspect many companies want employees who will work for free and hours they are not contracted to do but they may have some issue enforcing that term on you in a court of law.
use ACAS as a first port
In essence it is better to sort this ASAP. Sort probably means compromise on both sides but I am fairly confident that if you refuse to accept an illegal contract and resign you would win at tribunal. Whether you are prepared to do it and whether your employer realises this is a different matter
GM is trying to up his game from being day book keeper to running a business which seems to be blighted . We punch above our weight and seem to win contracts and new business almost by accident.
The new contracts are necessary and should protect both the employee and employer . The copy I have is ridiculous and no -one in their right mind would work all day every day.
Colleague had his wisdom teeth out and had 2 weeks off. I worked 19 days straight to cover his and my tasks. Gm expects same level of process and production with a 50% reduction in staffing in the dept.
Will contact ACAS as that seems the best way forward
No sick pay? Get gone
http://www.reed.co.uk
http://m.monster.co.uk
Dunno when the last time you've applied for a job but if you upload your CV to these sites normally in the first 2 weeks you get loads of calls from recruitment firms, which is annoying but useful as they'll be able to give you a good indication of what's available in your area.
A few years ago we got a new head Lawyer at work and he brought out new contracts that we had to sign.
A few of the more senior employees got together and disputed them.
It was a bit of a standoff, and lots of bad feeling emerged on all sides. In the end they took out the stupid, illegal and immoral stuff, so we signed. It cost them an extra 2% ongoing employer contribution into our pensions though, as a 'goodwill' gesture 🙂
In your position, only you know what position of strength you have.
Don't sign. Worse conditions, less security, no recompense. Dude must be crazy. Good luck!
Don't sign, easy for me to say, but if you do, what's next?
If he knows he can get away with this then there will be no stopping him. Get your colleagues together outside of work and formulate a plan. You could for example ask for a sit down with the company owner to discuss your concerns as a team.
It never ceases to amaze me, in difficult times employers need good loyal staff. How they think that shafting their staff will help things, I really have no idea.
Delay signing as long as you can, get your CV sorted, get as much training off them as you can and get the hell out of there when it suits you.
The place is obviously being run by pricks. There ain't no turning that back I'm afraid.
The workers united will never be defeated. Get together with your colleagues and approach whoever is above the idiot.
Colleague had his wisdom teeth out and had 2 weeks off.
I'm not surprised the bloke tasked with trying to get some work out of you lot has tried bringing you in line.
2 weeks for some bloody teeth out?
😉
And some people on here think that unions are only out to cause disruption and inconvenience for fun 🙄 You and your colleagues could join a union if you all feel the same way.
It sounds like there's something else going on at the company and your contract is probably not the major problem.
At the moment it appears you are all working way beyond the terms of your current contract (if you have one) anyway, and the whole set-up only seems to function due to the goodwill and flexibility of the small team. That's no way to run a business and the owners will know that if one or two of you left the whole thing would fall down.
You need to ask yourself what the owners want for the firm, and you, and the 5 of you should come back with some changes that stand a chance of getting adopted.
Time of for teeth out? A cold? Grow up your not in school. I've never had time off for something as trivial as this in 17 years.
However working for free is a no no. Does the new contract state a 'reasonable amount of overtime?, or if you fail to meet the contract deadline? I highly doubt your new contract has no basic contract hour stipulated, of which you can legally claim back the time owing. I can't feel sorry for you working weekends or bank holidays, most people with real jobs have to.
pitchpro2011 - Member
Time of for teeth out? A cold? Grow up your not in school. I've never had time off for something as trivial as this in 17 years
dunno about you but no thanks dont want someone sneezing all over my food!
that is merely because you are not as awesome as they are
I can't feel sorry for you working weekends or bank holidays, [s]most people with real jobs have to.[/s]because i want to provoke a reaction with my comments
Time of for teeth out?
Rotting teeth can kill you, either through sepsis or as a result of the increased risk of heart disease that such patients have.
Personally, I'm not going to increase the risk of developing sepsis for many jobs.
. I can't feel sorry for you working weekends or bank holidays, most people with real jobs have to.
And what would those jobs be, retail or hospitality? Do you mean minimum wage jobs that no one with a decent education does?
OP it sounds like that with increases/wages possibly over the time you've all been there the new head bloke has done his sums and has been told he could get cheaper people in doing your job?
It sounds exactly like hes making the role(s) not worth it anymore, to unsettle people then bring cheaper people in. I wouldn't accept that contract- its designed to be as unpalletable as possible isn't it?
If you accepted it he'd have you working to a very low averaged-out hourly salary.
Speak to others and take legal advice. I wouldn't accept that contract.
Good luck though- you are probably settled/enjoy your colleagues and this is like a handgrenade in your life 🙁
I believe doctors (amongst many other professionals) are expected to work weekends, I prefer it if they aren't minimum educated and minimum wage.Do you mean minimum wage jobs that no one with a decent education does?
Not that I'm defending pitchpro's inflammatory post
I believe doctors (amongst many other professionals) are expected to work weekends, I prefer it if they aren't minimum educated and minimum wage.Not that I'm defending pitchpro's inflammatory post
Well, apart from some of the obvious professions such as the emergency services/military and a somewhat smaller minority of less obvious, decent industry jobs.
On the whole though, most of the people I meet who say they have to work weekends are bar staff, chefs or waiters/waitresses. Those are proper jobs, thems are.
Small Firm... 5 employees - there is your strength. Basically imagine what would happen if you [u]all[/u] said "f..k you" and you [u]all[/u] walk out together... how long would the company last?
Point this out and if they don't budge, start firing round your CV's and/or seriously look at going it on your own with the rest of your workmates. If you have been working leaderless for 2 years then basically the company [u]is[/u] you five, the knowledge and experience is there.
The biggest issue you have is solidarity, had a mate who was in a similar position years ago but ended up being singled out as the ringleader when the rest lost their balls.
And what would those jobs be, retail or hospitality? Do you mean minimum wage jobs that no one with a decent education does?
I worked in a shop for a while, for minimum wage, with a PhD.
On the whole though, most of the people I meet who say they have to work weekends are bar staff, chefs or waiters/waitresses. Those are proper jobs, thems are.
You sound pretty awesome, a real high flier with talk like that. That or a puffed up self important waste of skin. Forgive me, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
Beancounter has probably been talking to a mate whose told him he could shave £30k off the annual wage bill to employ more junior people. Told owner as he wanted to curry favour/look good who said 'ok do it'.
Way O/T but..- I heard recently - a big company employs a lot of gap year degree students in technical roles/etc. So an Employee wanting to curry favour tells big boss that he could get away with offering 1yr unpaid placements, why pay?
Guess what- new rule, all internships are unpaid.
yeah but us successful high flyers are going to have difficulty to spend all our hard earned dosh at the weekends if none of the little people are earning a pittance serving us so don't be bad mouthing them on public forums, save that talk for the bar at the gentleman's club.On the whole though, most of the people I meet who say they have to work weekends are bar staff, chefs or waiters/waitresses. Those are proper jobs, thems are.
Although if you turn up to work after the stated start date of your new contract then you will have been deemed to have accepted the new terms.
Not true they can claim this but it is pretty hard as you will say you are working to a contract you both signed and agreed to and they argue you are working to the one you have not signed.
IANAL but which do you think carries most weight?
No, cos here's what happens - they terminate your existing contract (in writing) and offer you the new one. If you turn up for work the day after your old contract ends, you are deemed to be working under the terms of the new one. IANAL but have done this, with proper advice from employment lawyers. There was a union involved, who had their own legal advice (unsurprisingly).
On another note, the limitless hours for no extra pay thing - not sure what your basic income looks like, but if you are made to work more hours than would work out at minimum wage, then the employer is breaking the law. You might also want to look at the European Working Time directive if you are regularly expected to work beyond 48 hours per week (it's averaged, so doesn't prevent occasional long hours).
Yes you can do it properly with consultation* as you did but what you cannot do is hand out a contract with illegal terms in it then deem that contract to be accepted. Given the contract violates the law it would be unenforceable anyway as it is de facto illegal.
* they can force it through anyway but it is complicated and given what they are trying to force through is illegal they have no chance of successfully proving it was fair and legal
Not sure you know what de facto means. Also, the contract wouldn't be void as a whole if terms fell below the statutory minimums - it would just be unenforceable in those respects.
I am a lawyer but no the square root of not a lot about employment. The contract seems to contain unlawful terms if you sign it it can be enforced in so far as it can be made lawful by crossing bits out but not changing wording "the blue pencil test "?..the current contract is binding unless and untilled lawfully terminated. The whole scenario smacks of constructive dismissal but seek legal advise before any steps are taken. I think ACAS should be your first step for info. Is the guy an owner or just a manager. From what you say a full team aproach to the owners may be inorder. Small business value and reputation is very often their staff nit the Co name or the actual work they do. Personally I would be thinking long and hard about uping sticks as a team and either working elsewhere or setting up together.
(I'll bet they didn't factor the redundancy/unfair dismissal settlements into how much they were going to save!)
And what would those jobs be, retail or hospitality? Do you mean minimum wage jobs that no one with a decent education does?On the whole though, most of the people I meet who say they have to work weekends are bar staff, chefs or waiters/waitresses. Those are proper jobs, thems are.
😯
Those posts make you sound like a real tool.
Whatever you do, make sure that you create an evidence log. If you have a meeting, send an email to confirm what happened in the meeting. Keep copies of all document and all emails in a secure off site facility. Document working practices before and after the GM took over. If there are records of the hours that you have worked (and there should be) take copies. Get everyone to do this.
the contract wouldn't be void as a whole if terms fell below the statutory minimums - it would just be unenforceable in those respects.
They need to argue you accepted a contract that was not lawful, that you did not sign, that you were not consulted on, and that made your conditions much worse to the extent that much of the contract was unenforcable and you took them to court over the changes.
that might not be that easy to argue [ except on here].
It depends but it is pretty much a cut and dried constructive claim tbh
Time off for some teeth out... Ok I will bite. Colleague had 2 impacted wisdom teeth removed and a molar done at the same time . The molar was snapped in half and needed drilling out. They dislocated his jaw under general aneathestic , gave him 2 black eyes and turned his head into a football. He couldn't eat or talk for 72 hrs .Jeez some people.
As for working with a cold. Its the food industry , there are laws about working with any illness , its not MTFU and get on with it, which we do
I worked for 6 weeks with my hand in a splint / immobilised whilst waiting for an op to fix a snapped tendon . Just got on with it .
GM is just a manager , and yes , he could probably save maybe £1k a week by removing everyone ( apart from the 65yr old he employed to deliver 50kg beer barrels ) and replacing us all with newer ,younger , fitter and more enthusiastic members of staff.
Many thanks to all the sensible people who took the time to respond to this thread . General mood at work seems to be have a friendly chatt with new GM to see if changes can be made . If they cant then its going to be awkward
I'm not trying to get a bite but my current contract (and at least two previous ones) contain the "work at any time asked" clause - I genuinely thought they are pretty standard now?
with ononeorange on this.. big chage for some but 10 years ago i was working on any day of the year with reasonable notice any hours of the day with reasonable notice at any location with reasonable notice contract.. and yes the micky got took by management.
one day i was working in sheffield the next skipton the next manchester all be there for 7 work till 5 no allowance for travel or costs.. where you lived how you got to work was not an issue for them i was told. i was once given a verbal warning for discussing salary levels with a colleague ( proffesional misconduct!)
Wow, mate, never stops at your place does it!
I know you like the job and the place is kind of your baby, but they've really gone too far.Surely the industry is picking up now (sorry, I'm only guessing), if you don't get any where with ACAS, you've gotta get out for your own sanity! There must be another place that would benefit from your work ethic and years of experience.
**** me Rob that sounds awful 🙁
We punch above our weight and seem to win contracts and new business almost by accident.
Because [b]you[/b] make a great product. Maybe you should remind him of that?
NB Did you say to him "Is that the best you've got?" 😉
Oh and Dezb +1 Start advertising yourself as available - social media, LinkedIn, Singlehopworld etc etc
You sound pretty awesome, a real high flier with talk like that. That or a puffed up self important waste of skin. Forgive me, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
He used to post as bwaaarrrp, and had a big fit because he thought he knew more than a lecturer that failed him. He is (or was) a student for most of his STW posting life. I'll let you add that to you decision making to work out which of the two above boxes he best fits in.
Get everyone to join a Union that represents your trade/type of work
If not just for supporting your legal and employment rights.
Unsure but for what your saying I do feel its incorrect if not illegal to work for nothing
from being paid to not, if not immoral to ask. Unless you have been given a massive pay rise.
But the SSP can be changed and also Bank Holidays payments.
But I am sure to stop a Bank Holiday payment at the moment is if an Employee fails
to work any part of the week before. As this happened years back to a colleague I worked with.
Work on your CV Sounds a great employee, give the story to the press as I am sure
the companies they supply will terminate the contracts due to bad publicity.
Rob..I've been in a similiar sort of thing,gentle chats don't work,just bat it straight back saying the contract is unacceptable and illegal as it stands..make sure you know how the Working Time Directive works and keep as your mantra "no-one works for free"
Its time to put your foot down ,you have been flexible in the past and that has been your undoing really...now they are taking the mickey!
The whole business needs to be put on a more structured footing,a good thing for the employee's, but there are better ways of doing it.
In my case everything got sorted,it was more a lack of communication really, and when I moved on a few years ago the company was doing very well.
Good luck mate
Well there we go fella half a story, a broke jaw is quite different from having a tooth out. This is also the case with the contract I'm sure as I've seen a great deal of contracts and there's no way it says half the things the OP states, he's exaggerating due to his anger.
When I first started my job 9 years ago the contracts were very unfair by any companies standards (a lot better now) but was no where near as harsh as stated here.
If you want to deal with this properly, you all need to meet and discuss exactly what you find unfair, come to an agreement between yourselves and then all put it in writting to the company. This is far more effective than moaning to your boss. He's been given a target to hit and this is his plan to do so, plans can be changed.
....the stupid comment putting down barstaff, ect is moronic. I work in retail but 70% of my staff have degrees and even masters and will in a few years probably be earning double what I do. That said even the ones who don't will make something of themselves. The most successful people I've met have no education at all.
Could anyone point out what they would do or what the legalities are of a 50 percent partner changing the locks on a premises or even why they would do this
Mate - if you're the other partner, speak to a lawyer.
And what would those jobs be, retail or hospitality? Do you mean minimum wage jobs that no one with a decent education does?
What do you class as a decent education? I left school at 17 with a handful of acceptable GCSE's
I work in retail. I'm in the shop now - it just happens to be my shop. I don't worry too much about it being the dregs of employment though as it's my 2nd business. My other business makes me around 3 x the average national salary though, so I cope.
We could probably scrape by on my wife's earnings from her own business if we had to. I don't think she even went to school.
Could anyone point out what they would do or what the legalities are of a 50 percent partner changing the locks on a premises or even why they would do this
A fifty percent partner shouldn't be doing this without consulting the other 50% unless there is some other underlying info we dont know ie that 50% is doing all the work, even then its wrong and should be handled differently
A fifty percent partner shouldn't be doing this without consulting the other 50% unless there is some other underlying info we dont know ie that 50% is doing all the work, even then its wrong and should be handled differently
I can't connect the two myself at the moment as to what makes someone think ill change the locks and I actually do the work at the lock change site.
Someone must think I'm going to clear the place out or am mentally unstable.
Are you saying you are a 50% partner and the other partner changed the locks where you work?
Are you saying you are a 50% partner and the other partner changed the locks where you work?
I believe tried or asked before finally deciding not, I just dont understand, before this there had been a dissagreement , I basically steered clear to avoid saying something I really would regret or even as far a coming to blows, the other partner tells me that because they couldn't contact me they thought they should change the locks.
something not quite right? and its weighted heavily enough for me to say enough
that an interesting way of saying you were wrongWell there we go fella half a story, a broke jaw is quite different from having a tooth out. This is also the case with the contract I'm sure as I've seen a great deal of contracts and there's no way it says half the things the OP states, he's exaggerating due to his anger.
ASTR you are a business owner not a worker and i wonder how close they get to the national average whilst you make 3 x it. does that help you understand the difference 😉
Well there we go fella half a story, a broke jaw is quite different from having a tooth out. This is also the case with the contract I'm sure as I've seen a great deal of contracts and there's no way it says half the things the OP states, he's exaggerating due to his anger.
a broke jaw ? The hospital dislocated it to take out 3 teeth. You clearly cannot read or understand what you have read.
"Im sure as I've seen a great deal of contracts " well thats good for you, but what would be the point in me lying or exagerating?. It contains all of the items I stated in the opening post.
Who the heck do you think you are ?
ASTR you are a business owner not a worker and i wonder how close they get to the national average whilst you make 3 x it. does that help you understand the difference
Not quite sure I understand your point Junky. I am a worker - I'm out grafting every day. I've spent years 'working for the man'. My first year of work was on a YTS scheme, earning £37.50 a week (the route into becoming a sparky). I got paid overtime at £1.50 an hour.
Currently I employ two people - one permanent member of staff in the shop and one self employed electrical operative (not a qualified spark). The girl in the shop gets minimum wage, as that's what the current market dictates and that's what the turnover of the shop allows. She's been in the job a couple of weeks and her enthusiasm and general demeanour seems to be having a marked improvement on sales from the last employee. Because we had a good week this week, I gave her a £25 bonus on top of her £150 wages - that will continue if she continues to perform well.
The electrical op gets earns almost twice the national average (as it is at the moment, the equivalent of £50k p.a.). He earns this because he can work in a particular environment and apply himself to certain tasks, that allow me to charge him out at a rate that the market dictates and makes me a profit also.
She's made up with the job and he's totally happy with his role too. It all works for me, so that's three people from three different employment demographics that are all satisfied with their position. Seems OK to me?
The girl in the shop gets minimum wage, as that's what the current market dictates and [b]that's what the turnover of the shop allows.[/b]
I think you should give her a 100% pay rise.
You can cover it with a 10% pay cut for yourself 😉
Not quite sure I understand your point Junky. I am a worker
I do not see how i can simplify tbh
You own the business you dont work for it - check your wage and hers to see the difference.
I am not having a dig or a go about this.
The girl in the shop gets minimum wage, as that's what the current market dictates and that's what the turnover of the shop allows
The one that allows you to earn 3 x the national average whilst she earns what 50% of it ? Again this is your choice and clearly you can afford more if you choose to.
. Seems OK to me?
Of course it does you make the most out of this why would it not be ok?
I doubt any of them would refuse a wage rise 😉
Not having a dig about you per se but the retail sector market rate is the minimum wage which is what we were discussing. IMHO its reasonable to call the bare minimum you can legally pay a low wage.
Right - I see you aren't having a pop, so this is just an explanation. The shop is a sideline, but forget for a minute I have another business.
Last week was a good week in the shop and (haven't got the books in front of me) turned over around £750. Of this £750, her wages are £150, the rent is £75 and to re-stock what was sold would cost around £250. This leaves me around £225.
I gave her an extra £25. She made £175 and I made £200. Ok, she did 4 days work for that and I did 1 (plus probably half a day dealing with suppliers) but I don't see this as an unfair balance in this scenario. Like I say, this was a good week and it is usually less. If I start getting rich from the shop, then the balance will obviously shift, but she will still get rewarded for good performance.
The other business I work for the majority of the income - I just get paid very well for working nights out on a motorway. Recently I had the opportunity to take someone on and he gets paid well for what he does and I make a bit out of him.