[Closed] Employer does not pay mileage - advice

Discrimination?

What does her contract say?

Tell them she no longer has a car?

Is her car that she no longer has insured for business use?

IANAA but I believe she has to be given an official place of work and travel between there and home cannot be offset against tax. Travel to any other sites for work can be claimed.

I don't see how an employer can pay some employees' mileage but not others - this kind of thing is not a benefit in kind!

IANAA but I believe she has to be given an official place of work and travel between there and home cannot be offset against tax. Travel to any other sites for work can be claimed.

BUT, she then sometimes gets a call and has to pop to another school, or into council office or even one of the other two schools she is normally in (on 7 week rotation)

I don't see how an employer can pay some employees' mileage but not others - this kind of thing is not a benefit in kind!
Welcome to council austerity.

 

Paying mileage isn't a perk... Very odd behaviour. I'd just get her to ask her boss how to get there / how to claim mileage.

What kind of distances are we talking (though it's a moot point, as it should be paid)

Paying mileage isn't a perk... Very odd behaviour.

Get a taxi and put it through expenses instead then.

I am not sure the employer is obliged to pay mileage, but I would expect consistency if they do. As mentioned above, I understand normal practice to be that one site is defined as the 'main' site and mileage can be claimed from there (but not for commuting between there and home).
Whether this main site can be on rotation I don't know.

Also, you can claim a tax rebate if the employer pays less than HMRC mileage rates [url= https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/business-mileage-fuel-costs ]info here[/url]

Is Mrs_OAB an employee (PAYE) or on a contract basis?
Might this be a central Scotland authority, which has merged services with a neighbour?

PAYE and yes, a couple of LA's that are working closely together across the Forth. 😉

As I say though, normal in teaching.

My understanding is that for tax purposes you have a regular place of work defined (even if that is 'home'). You do not get mileage for journeys to and from that place, but you do get mileage to any other sites you have to attend (measured from your official site) IIRC.

I think.

'across the Forth' you say...

"When you use your car or bicycle for authorised business purposes, mileage will be reimbursed at the HMRC (Inland Revenue) rate. The Council has available pool
vehicles for business use."

Has MrsOAB tried to claim - and if so what was the response? She might need to include petrol receipts (so they can claim the VAT component back).

EDIT - Cougar, yes more eloquently put than me. I'm pretty sure that's the case if mileage is offered.

What does her car insurance say (if not for business use) I am sure most only cover to one place of employment (technically)

Has MrsOAB tried to claim - and if so what was the response? She might need to include petrol receipts (so they can claim the VAT component back).

We have full business use for both of us - me for travelling in both cars, her as in an emergency she could carry a child somewhere.

'Sod it then, ill walk. Tell em i'll be there in a couple of hours'

Crikey. I'd be tempted to opt for an easy life, claim it via HMRC (not the council). Other option seems to be TU or generally making oneself unpopular with the management. It doesn't seem especially fair to me though.

I'd be tempted to opt for an easy life, claim it via HMRC (not the council).

Just to point out she has colleagues who work in schools that are 40 miles from training venues - some are asked to attend meeting in middle of day, so drive 40 miles commute, 40 miles back, 40 miles up to school, and 40 miles home at end of day... Her own furthest nursery is 36 miles away from Stirling..

I think it means you end up doing a [url= https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/business-mileage-fuel-costs ]tax return[/url], but there used to be a 'short verson'. To be honest the long one isn't really that bad - need to keep a record of journeys (but you would anyway so not much extra effort).

Edit - both typing at the same time. There might be a case for a pool car, for those sort of circumstances, but I can't remember if they are placed at schools or just at the offices.

Without being arsey about it you just need to be firm about the costs of doing this.

If management want staff to travel for business, they need to cover the cost of this or provide a means to get there. Schools basically take the piss with expenses, you just wouldn't stand for it in a professional business environment.

If no joy on expenses I'd seek [i]advice [/i]from union, which may then result in saying "if you want me to travel somewhere you provide the transport!"

[i]"a couple of LA's that are working closely together"[/i]
Matt, does this mean that she has two separate employers, with two separate contracts of employment? 😕

No, she works for Stirling. Just that Clacks and Stirling are slowly merging a lot of services - education being a leading area of shared provision.

The point above has been made about car insurance

Given its a local authority, I reckon doing it by the book and asking for confirmation of their position regards car insurance In writing is the only way

You will ALWAYS get fobbed off with bullsh** answers till they have to put it in writing - if they don't answer then you have fantastic grounds for a grievance procedure

Insurance is not an issue - it cost the grand total of nothing to have it added to our policies last year.

If employer pays nothing then she can claim 45p per mile from HMRC
I think it's a P87 form, very simple to do, I was doing it for the last few years (employer paid 11p a mile I claimed the difference to 45p)
It will probably be paid back via an adjustment to her tax code rather than an actual physical payment
Any trips between home and place of work on her contract cannot be claimed so say she is employed at school A then travel between school A and school B can be claimed, or travel from home directly to school B, but not home to School A

matt, the issue isn't whether it cost anything - the issue is what is she didn't add it!

Is there a link to the actual official travel policy?

Can't claim 45p per mile back from HMRC.
Can only claim [i]the tax[/i] back on 45p per mile.
Big difference.

Which reminds me, I have 3 years worth of tax to claim back on 5.5p per mile. Probably worth doing now.

It is an employment contract question on what her contracted work location is. Travel there is commuting and you can't claim. Travel anywhere else isn't commuting and you can claim to HMR&C - details below on how to, but if it is business mileage, collar the employer. There may be some travel policy lurking somewhere to refer to which is part of the staff handbook and covers travel claims.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/business-mileage-fuel-costs ]https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/business-mileage-fuel-costs[/url]

Okay, in my opinion (ex HM Inspector of Taxes) she'll have a "normal" place of work which changes day-by-day. Getting to and from that place of work will be ordinary commuting costs.

Any additional travel, such as a lunch-time meeting, should be regarded as a business expense. If the employer fails to reimburse these expenses, she can claim tax relief, at the approved rate.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-tax-relief-for-expenses-of-employment-p87 ]Form P87[/url] is probably the best way to claim, although a letter would be adequate.

I suggest she claims initially for 2014-15, and if successful, also claims for earlier years.

HMRC rules for claiming mileage are that you are not allowed to claim from your home to normal place of work (a single place from my understanding) which for sake of discussion is 10 miles.
You are allowed to claim the extra for travel to other places if they are in excess of the distance to your fixed place of work. So if site B is 15 miles, then you can claim for 5 miles.

As above you can claim the difference between the HMRC approved rate, 45ppm for your own vehicle, and what you are actually paid and this is added to your tax code - so you save the tax on it.

[quote=steveh ]HMRC rules for claiming mileage are that you are not allowed to claim from your home to normal place of work (a single place from my understanding) which for sake of discussion is 10 miles.
You are allowed to claim the extra for travel to other places if they are in excess of the distance to your fixed place of work. So if site B is 15 miles, then you can claim for 5 miles.
As above you can claim the difference between the HMRC approved rate, 45ppm for your own vehicle, and what you are actually paid and this is added to your tax code - so you save the tax on it.
All of that. Mrs OAB should keep a note of her mileage and fill in a tax return at the end of the year. If she is getting no mileage allowance from her employer then she will receive the tax back on 45p per mile (i.e. 9p per mile at the standard rate).

Cheers esme and steveh - will go and write a letter, see where it goes.

It is an employment contract question on what her contracted work location is.

Seems crazy. In Scottish borders we can claim mileage. Although courses become complicated as they are happy for mileage or overnight but both are not really going to happen.

Can't claim 45p per mile back from HMRC.
Can only claim the tax back on 45p per mile.
Big difference.

Yep, that's what I meant by saying tax code is adjusted, just lazy typing

There might be an LNCT agreement that's worth checking out for local conditions, but I suspect that the PBB exercise will have over-ridden that. If she can demonstrate that managers are getting mileage, that might make a stronger point.
She should also ask for a copy of her particulars of employment if she doesn't have a copy already (and check the date on them when received).

Current teaching job adverts mention mileage rates (quoted above) and available on myjobscotland...

hmmmm, I am off to my job scotland...

No advice for the OP beyond expressing my sympathy. We had a handyman in the local authority children's homes I work in who got an essential car user supplement in his wages as he used his car to store his tools/move between homes. Last year they took his essential user allowance off him, so he got a bike on C2W and told them he would use his bike to travel between sites. They told him that he could not do that, as it would take too long to get between sites and he would have nowhere to carry his tools etc. They told him he had to use his car, but that the use of it was not essential, just necessary.
😯

Particulars [url= https://www.myjobscotland.gov.uk/councils/stirling-council/jobs/teacher-art-design-stirling-high-school-13307/126555 ]here[/url]. This was the [url= https://www.myjobscotland.gov.uk/councils/stirling-council/jobs/teacher-art-design-stirling-high-school-13307 ]advert[/url]

is this it?

Via

http://www.snct.org.uk/lnctAgreements.php

yeah but I think that'll be out of date by now

Well it says this in that link you sent....
Seems pretty clear! Ask them if her travel is "authorised". If they say yes then she can claim!

Travel and Subsistence Allowance
When you use your car or bicycle for authorised business purposes, mileage will be reimbursed at the HMRC (Inland Revenue) rate. The Council has available pool vehicles for business use.

I've just completed my P87. A few years I was in a similar situation submitted the P87 (or its equivalent) I got a cheque back from HMRC and they altered my tax code

"Not of you are a teacher in Scotland. None of the people who come on my courses get mileage. Next week I have teachers from all over Moray and Highland travelling to Inverness - I dont think any will get mileage."

interesting as mrs t-r(a teacher) seems to get it when justified....offsite training courses & official requested offsite meetings + SQA days.

HMRC rules for claiming mileage are that you are not allowed to claim from your home to normal place of work (a single place from my understanding) which for sake of discussion is 10 miles.
You are allowed to claim the extra for travel to other places if they are in excess of the distance to your fixed place of work. So if site B is 15 miles, then you can claim for 5 miles.

Not so. You can claim mileage from home to your 'other place'

Does Mrs OAB's contract state she has to have a car?, if not then I think they're on very dodgy ground all round, could she cycle to work on a few occasions just to make the point.
I had a heated discussion with a previous employer about carrying work items and needing then business insurance.
I used my motorcycle for a few days and got the point home that how we travel to and from work is our own choice, another colleague who lived close by cycled in!
I hope you manage to get this resolved.

I can't believe a local authority could be allowed to legally work this way. Small business 'look the other way' sort of thing I'd not be surprised if people need the work, but this is a compliance issue for them, and LG is about the most risk averse environment I've known.

How you commute is your business. How you travel for business is their concern.

They should provide a hire care, alternative transport or reimburse travel costs at an agreed rate which should cover fuel, wear & tear, business insurance if you are prepared to use your own transport.

I can see why you might not want to rock the boat, but as soon as I'm out of pocket I see that as an invitation to rock away 🙂 - you and they aren't a charity.

It'll all come down to her contract - it's no usual, but I know people who have more than one fixed location to work and are expected to commute to whichever one they're meant to be working from that day - the rub is whether they have to switch locations in the day - than that's a business trip.

She can complete a P87 to reclaim expenses, but it's worth remember whilst they might say she can count .38p per mile as an expense of employment - she will only get the TAX back on that amount, not the whole amount - the good thing is once she's done it once, they usually adjust your tax code until you tell them otherwise.

HMRC though may consider it all commuting though.

I did a direct/fixed contract for a council once - car allowances etc were seen as a way of supplementing peoples salary out of a different budget. My line manager had an essential car user allowance and never went anywhere. I didn't, and had to attend meetings at about 20 different sites quite routinely. They were too mean to pay for taxis, I was just expected to take my car at my own expense.

So I refused to take my car unless it was pouring down and rode my bike - they couldn't really stop me - free training time ! Major result.

I can't believe a local authority could be allowed to legally work this way

Brassneck, that was my surprise as well to be honest - my suspicion is that it falls into the classic local authority/council trap of someone In a position of incompetence not knowing the answer and therefore saying 'no, you can't claim it back' because they either i) can't be arsed or ii) don't know how to find out the proper answer.

Brassneck, that was my surprise as well to be honest - my suspicion is that it falls into the classic local authority/council trap of someone In a position of incompetence not knowing the answer and therefore saying 'no, you can't claim it back' because they either i) can't be arsed or ii) don't know how to find out the proper answer.

Agreed!

Does Mrs OAB's contract state she has to have a car?

This. If there's nothing in her contract then she should refuse to provide a car for business purposes. They can provide her with a pool car if they want her to travel to other sites.

We had the same situation at my employer - some staff had their expenses cut so they chose not to provide their cars any more. The employer ended up having to pay for taxis.

"I used my motorcycle for a few days and got the point home that how we travel to and from work is our own choice, another colleague who lived close by cycled in!"

I once got pulled aside and told i needed to have a more "reputable" car for client visits.....(a string of old modified 4x4s and vans were his issue)

" i cycle most days anyway so im not paying to have a shiny depreciating asset on the drive , when you start paying me to have a car you can start dictating what i choose to drive" is the correct reply, No more has been said.

This. If there's nothing in her contract then she should refuse to provide a car for business purposes. They can provide her with a pool car if they want her to travel to other sites.

Small rural nurseries with one room and a couple of staff, all 30+ Miles from Stirling.
Pool cars are in stirling.
So she would wait for the four times daily bus, to stirling, to borrow a car to drive back 30 odd miles to next site, back to Stirling, to then wait for the end of day for next bus back.
It just doesn't work.

I think that the core issue is that heads and managers have been told from top that no mileage is paid - and a rumpus with union would be needed. This needs to be balanced against the fact that they have all just been fighting unsuccessful,y against austerity cuts to peripatetic nursery staff and many more cuts are lined up. There is a deep culture in so many councils, this one included.

Would moving a couple of pool cars to the other sites not solve the issue?

Ridiculous situation, and one I'd be saying no to. If work needed me to attend sites other than my contractual place of work, they'd be reimbursing me accordingly. I fail to see why an employee should ever be incurring business expenses out of their own pocket.

I'm fairly sure (though I'd have to check) that non-commute mileage is calculated from your regular place of work, not from home or (home minus regular commute distance). I could've sworn that's what we got told when they tightened up on people taking the wee a couple of years back.

So she would wait for the four times daily bus, to stirling, to borrow a car to drive back 30 odd miles to next site, back to Stirling, to then wait for the end of day for next bus back.
It just doesn't work.

Ridiculous situation, and one I'd be saying no to. If work needed me to attend sites other than my contractual place of work, they'd be reimbursing me accordingly. I fail to see why an employee should ever be incurring business expenses out of their own pocket.

It is not sustainable. What happens if her car breaks down ? What if she decides she doesn't want to run a car any more, do they sack her ? They should assign her a pool car for the week, or manage their staff rotas competently so that using a pool car is practical. IME you never have to look far in cooncils some small puddle of useless management having wide ranging consequences.

Matt [b]who[/b] has actually told her that expenses will not be paid?

Would moving a couple of pool cars to the other sites not solve the issue?

Head Teachers, Head of service and colleagues who have asked before have said 'no'.

We are going to question it more - will let you know where it goes.

Drop your missus off at work in the mornings.

"Ok Mrs_Outandabout, we need you to visit $site today."

"I'd love to. How?"

As I said, rural location. Would you justify two cars sat 24/7, just for a couple of journey's in a week?

I hear you. But at the end of the day, that's their problem, not yours. They need to provide a solution which enables her to do her job, whether that's pool cars or taxis or whatever. Providing her own transport is [i]doing them a favour,[/i] they should be paying ~45p/mile for the fuel and wear & tear on her private vehicle.

As an aside, does she have business insurance for travel to these meetings she's going to?

I guess it depends how much she wants to keep the job and how much of a fuss she is willing to make.

If it was me, I simply wouldn't go unless they covered the costs.

One to watch out for is she should have business insurance for what she is doing, some policies add it for free but not all.

The employer is asking for trouble as far as I am concerned, if she had an accident while doing business mileage, not only would she be in trouble for not having the correct insurance etc but they open themselves up to all sorts of H&S issues.

Somebody at my company had a minor accident a few years back while travelling between sites (we do pay mileage) and the company had to answer a lot of questions about duty of care etc. There is now a rule that you have to prove that your car is suitable, belongs to you, taxed, MOT'd and has business insurance before you are allowed to use it and claim any business mileage.

Seems the be the way that Scottish LAs work. My missus works for Fife LA. She covers the entirety of Fife and occasionally has to head over to Edinburgh or Stirling or Perth. Initially she did most of her work from the Cupar office, not far from our home, but Fife LA decided it would be better to relocate her "fixed" office to Kirkcaldy. Now she can only claim mileage for any travel for work further out than Kirkcaldy, despite driving approximately 300 business miles a week. Probably 90% of her travel doesn't meet this criteria, as opposed to the 90% of travel that did when she was based in Cupar. It seems a little too convenient a decision for my liking, and appears to serve no purpose other than reducing the amount she costs the LA in mileage claims.

[i]I can't believe a local authority could be allowed to legally work this way. Small business 'look the other way' sort of thing I'd not be surprised if people need the work, but this is a compliance issue for them, and LG is about the most risk averse environment I've known.[/i]

I would, based on hearing of how friends OH's who are teachers and having worked with the NHS and dealt with the Council.

She needs to either raise an issue, or just do it and claim the (tax back) on the 45ppm.

FWIW all the private businesses I've worked at have usually paid the full rate.

Can Mrs O&A explore car-share with a co-worker into her place of work? It would only have to be for a few days while hers is 'fixed'.

Head Teachers, Head of service and colleagues who have asked before have said 'no'.

Given the agreement published on the SNCT website seems to indicate that's wrong she would be perfectly reasonable in contacting Someone for clarification in writing of the official policy rather than relying on, what amounts to, word of mouth.

For what it's worth, I can understand employees in a smallish private company avoiding raising HR issues/grievances, it's very likely to result in your card being marked (been there, got the T shirt), however working in LA or civil service it seems to be the only way to resolve issues, and I've known people rise through the system despite (or perhaps because) they went to HR on issues every five minutes,

As an aside, does she have business insurance for travel to these meetings she's going to?

Fife LA decided it would be better to relocate her "fixed" office to Kirkcaldy

a number of people have already suggested this but she just has to be without a car for a few weeks (tell then its in the garage with a busted clutch). drop her at work and see what they do.

unless her contract states she has to provide a car from work they will have to sort something out, they know they are taking the pish so as long as she is all innocence and smiles there very little they can do.

I'm sure there's an officially-sanctioned watertight business case for the move, but the fact that absolutely nothing about her job changed as a result of the move - other than her now putting 10,000+ unpaid business miles/year on our car - does get on my tits just a little bit. She still works from the Cupar office most of the time.

Fife LA decided it would be better to relocate her "fixed" office to Kirkcaldy

I don't know if it's different in Scotlandshire, but here your "main place of work" has to be the one you spend most time at. Perhaps ironically, it's to stop the opposite problem; claiming you work round the corner (or better yet, a 'home worker') and then claiming back travel expenses to the other end of the country every day.

Yes.

Who's paying for that, then?

Guess who gets mileage next year and one nominated 'base'? 😀

Asking a couple of well researched questions works wonders...

Well done that man!

Would they be questions that answering properly might have left someone else exposed further down the line perchance? 😈

I was gonna say "Eh?"

I am a teacher and I work for Clacks. My current role involves off site meetings at least weekly. I can claim all my mileage. I plan which days I ride to work around which days I need the car for meetings across Stirling and Clacks. I'm glad your wife is sorted out.

Now comes the back dated claim for previous mileage... Worth a shot surely???

Next year? We are in June.

Academic year starts in august

@hora - last week of term here. 8)