[Closed] Employer demanding employees administer Covid tests

A good friend of mine is currently on her 3rd day of voluntarily helping with testing at her daughters school - it wasn't any question in her mind about whether to help or not.

She is unhappy with the absence of H&S plan for testing and lack of change in H&S plan since first return to work (i.e. no consideration of increased transmissibility of variant strains), no information about what PPE may be available and lack of training (i.e. none).

She's only just heard about this but already knows there's no training (very doubtful) but doesn't know about availability of PPE.

Maybe find out some more information before jumping on the keyboard to complain about it to some random people on an unrelated forum?

Thankfully there's a great many other teachers out there who are thinking about someone other than themselves - and many thousands of people who are helping out in many ways even though it isn't in their job description.

And TBH she's got more chance of picking it up in the supermarket than testing some kids.

WWSTD?

Just do it?

However, her job title is ‘teacher’. I would say that administering infectious disease testing is, even in the current climate, some way removed from the role of a teacher.

I'd argue in the current climate it is?

Surely unless the school expects her to teach a full timetable at the same time as directing little Tarquin and Chardonay how to jab a swab up their nose it's making little to no difference to her what they ask her to do between 8:30 and 3:15?

A good friend of mine is currently on her 3rd day of voluntarily helping with testing at her daughters school – it wasn’t any question in her mind about whether to help or not.

So she chose to do it. What's that got to do with someone been told to do it?

Let us know what your job is, I'm sure we can find something you're not trained to do that would unsettle you.

If she's been told it's voluntary and doesn't want to do it she should take that at face value and just say no.

but she and her team have been told in no uncertain terms by their manager that it is mandatory.

I'd be running that by the union rep.

Maybe find out some more information before jumping on the keyboard to complain about it to some random people on an unrelated forum?

Or, maybe wind your neck in before trolling to some random people on an unrelated forum?

Surely unless the school expects her to teach a full timetable at the same time as directing little Tarquin and Chardonay how to jab a swab up their nose it’s making little to no difference to her what they ask her to do between 8:30 and 3:15?

Yep, this is in addition to a full timetable of what was expected to be remote learning and managerial roles too.

Spin

If she’s been told it’s voluntary and doesn’t want to do it she should take that at face value and just say no.

She's been expressly told she has to.

I’d be running that by the union rep.

Has done so, but the union at her place are ineffective.

The union should be giving her similar advice to the advice we have at work, and that I've been giving to my members.

1.  If communicated as voluntary, it is voluntary. End of subject. Her manager can say whatever they want to give the impression its 'mandatory' but unless in writing, it is not.

2. If she is to administer tests to the kids she should have training. H&SAWe Act1974, MHASAWR, PUWER..... etc. She is an employee and should be trained. (we cannot self test without doing the training package.)

3. As per above if there is no Risk Assessment and PPE provided, it does not happen. Employer's responsibility to assess risk and put controls in place as per the Hierarchy of controls.

4. "Her employment contract says that her duties include such tasks as she may reasonably be directed to do from time to time by her employer" as its voluntary she hasn't been directed to, and i would argue the reasonability of the request.

Let us know what your job is, I’m sure we can find something you’re not trained to do that would unsettle you

This. Pandemic or not, it's wrong to pressurise people into doing things at work which they aren't trained or qualified to do or which are well outwith the job description.

Let us know what your job is, I’m sure we can find something you’re not trained to do that would unsettle you.

IT (obvs) - but I'm volunteering as a vaccinator - does that help?

Is there perhaps someone she thinks is less valuable or more disposable than herself that should be doing it instead?

Let us know what your job is, I’m sure we can find something you’re not trained to do that would unsettle you.

Camera tech.

Other stuff I've been asked to do recently - fix the electrics on an ambulance, change the headlamp bulbs on an ambulance, frequent DIY covid tests and submit results.

I haven't cried to my union that fixing headlamps is below my paygrade or sharing health test results into a watsapp group is a breach of data protection. I just get shit done so the job goes ahead smoothly.

Thanks CJ01 in particular re: points 2 and 3. That accords with my thinking too.

She’s been expressly told she has to.

That's the bit she needs to take to the union. As crazyjenkins says, it can't be voluntary and mandatory.

If the school rep is ineffective she should go to the area rep or head office.

IT (obvs) – but I’m volunteering as a vaccinator – does that help?

I'd say volunteering as a vaccinator with full training and PPE provided is completely different to being told you have to carry out testing with neither.

But don't let that wipe the smug feeling of moral superiority off your face.

I haven’t cried to my union that fixing headlamps is below my paygrade or sharing health test results into a watsapp group is a breach of data protection. I just get shit done so the job goes ahead smoothly.

Not all heroes wear capes.

IT (obvs) – but I’m volunteering as a vaccinator – does that help?

With some degree of training...

I’d say volunteering as a vaccinator with full training and PPE provided is completely different to being told you have to carry out testing with neither.

And she knows for a fact that there isn't any training or PPE?

But don’t let that wipe the smug feeling of moral superiority off your face.

Thanks, I won't.

thisisnotaspoon
Full Member

Is there perhaps someone she thinks is less valuable or more disposable than herself that should be doing it instead?

Better trained? Better prepared? No idea why you've gone direct to this unpleasant take on it tbh

She’s been expressly told she has to.

Has she questioned this, explaining that she was originally told it was voluntary? Has she sought further clarification from HR or SLT?

Sticking things in children is not the same as being asked to change a lightbulb… who is responsible if the child is hurt (or say they are hurt)?

Elsewhere, if you are involved in testing or vaccinating the public, as a professional or volunteer, you are offered the vaccine, yes?

Jesus! There are some pathetic people on this thread. OP, if she’s not comfortable doing it and hasn’t had the required training then she has every right to refuse, especially so given the fact that it is described as voluntary. Ignore the righteous ones who have given their lives to change a bulb or something.

.

This. Pandemic or not, it’s wrong to pressurise people into doing things at work which they aren’t trained or qualified to do or which are well outwith the job description.

+1

There are some very unpleasant people on this thread with a distorted sense of moral superiority.

Not in any way trolling, but given all schools were going back today and that we knew that when they did, that testing would be required, especially during the first few weeks, How was she not going to be teaching on-site for another 4 weeks? Uni lecturer?

Just for reference - my job title bears little resemblance to many of things I'm requested/required/instructed to do as "part of" my job.

No problem Jakester.

To be fair to her manager though, training and PPE may well be provided but I'd expect this detail before going in. Re: the training, I'd also assume this would be a safeguarding issue if not trained?

There are some very unpleasant people on this thread with a distorted sense of moral superiority.

'Teacher' and 'union' are probably trigger words for that type of response!

I agree that it can't be voluntary and mandatory at the same time. And that training is necessary, whatever form that comes in (could depend on age group, at my wife's secondary school the volunteers are handing out the kits and doing the reagent mixing and dropping onto the test strips bit but the kids are free to stick the swabs up their own noses thanks!)

But - you can't come on asking for opinions and then rail against anyone with a different one. If you were only looking for validation of your own view, that's not how it works and you must be new here!

Not in any way trolling, but given all schools were going back today and that we knew that when they did, that testing would be required, especially during the first few weeks, How was she not going to be teaching on-site for another 4 weeks? Uni lecturer?

6th form college.

Re: the training, I’d also assume this would be a safeguarding issue if not trained?

I'd have also thought a big risk in relation to improperly administered tests showing incorrect results as well, though I don't actually know about the mechanism of testing beyond 'shove it in someone's face'.

Has the "job description" been misinterpreted ?

My eldest is at High School and had the first test last Friday. No one stuck anything in /up him , the kids had to administer the test themselves. Teacher was just there to hand out and collect the swabs. If that is the case , then I don't see it being an issue, other than the additional time it takes whilst she should be doing something else.

Will she be literally administering the tests (tickling the tonsils with the swab) or is it just a supervisory role of handing them out and collecting them in / noting down results?

Very different things I feel. The first is very unreasonable without full PPE and training, and should be voluntary - the second I'm a lot more "meh, just do it" about.

you can’t come on asking for opinions and then rail against anyone with a different one

It wasn’t just different opinions that were offered, some of the replies were just rude to the extent that deserves being ‘railed against’.

It wasn’t just a different opinion that was offered, some of the replies were just rude to the extent that deserves being ‘railed against’.

They seemed quite vindictive to me, totally uncalled for.

you can’t come on asking for opinions and then rail against anyone with a different one.

It's not different opinions that are the problem here, it's the nasty judgements some are offering.

actually I think the initial responses were not unreasonable. It was other responses to these responses that escalated it.

Especially finding it's a sixth form college, all I imagine that will be done will be handing out and collecting in the tests and maybe a bit of the mixing and dripping.

Find out and then examine whether it's a reasonable request.

These are not normal times.

6th form college.

Surely 6th form college students can administer their own tests? Seems odd that they want staff to do it for them.

Our school asked for volunteers, I didn't as I don't the whole concept of asking schools to do this testing is appropriate. It still got done though.

Will she be literally administering the tests (tickling the tonsils with the swab) or is it just a supervisory role of handing them out and collecting them in / noting down results?

The latter if it's anything like my school.

Hubris aside, I'm not sure the avearge teacher would be suitable to admimistrate nasal swabs etc, (willing or not) surely that is a medical proceedure that would require a ceratin amount of specific training/qualification?

I'm playing devils advocate here a little, but it sounds unreasonable to me to expect a teacher to carry out a medical proceedure beyond standard first aid.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Capes are voluntary. It’s mandatory to wear your underpants over your trousers through.

I’d have also thought a big risk in relation to improperly administered tests showing incorrect results as well

It's really not difficult to do - I did my first one this morning and it was incredibly simple.

Surely 6th form college students can administer their own tests?

IIRC, 12-17 should take their own whilst being watched by a 'testing helper' and 18+ just do their own tests, so some students in a 6th form will need to be supervised. I do not believe anyone is expecting helpers to *DO* the tests. Again OP, I think your wife needs to get further clarification here.

I’m not sure the avearge teacher would be suitable to admimistrate nasal swabs etc, (willing or not) surely that is a medical proceedure that would require a ceratin amount of specific training/qualification?

I don't see why..the staff manning the testing centres just give the testing swabs and tell you to get on with it.

Hubris aside, I’m not sure the avearge teacher would be suitable to admimistrate nasal swabs etc, (willing or not) surely that is a medical proceedure that would require a ceratin amount of specific training/qualification?

Certainly not wanting to escalate anything here but it's not a medical procedure.
The swabs are the same as for the home testing kits that have been used for nearly a year (two of my daughters used home testing kits last summer and they found it easy) - in fact I think that it's probably more difficult for a third person to administer the nasal swab as the instructions seem to be to put the swab as far up your nose as you're comfortable with. How would someone else know at what point this was?

Also seen many kids on TV this morning doing their own swabs with the teachers/volunteers just overseeing each one.

Right, she's now been told by her manager (i.e. the same one) she isn't now required to carry this out - I suspect as a result of general uproar across the college and union queries, so she'll 'just' be in a marshalling capacity instead.

Amazing how quickly it changed when queried.

So my son. 9yrs returned to school today. It's 3 tier here so a Middle School, yrs 5-8 but regarded by Govt as 'Secondary' so he has to test and wear masks in lessons.

First item of the day was testing. Teacher observed / assisted whilst all the pupils tested themselves (I understand it's a nasal swab no requirement for tonsils). My lad's teacher has been brilliant. Took them through the process on the last 'tutor group' video call on Friday to prepare the class for today.

I guess he could have gone running to the Union as it wasn't in his job spec.

Or maybe it was BS in the first place?

She needs to be less precious and more inquisitive.

If she asked the right questions she would almost certainly be told that she doesn't have to go near a pupil, will just be overseeing them doing self tests. So handing them a test, perhaps watching them doing it, making sure they chuck it away correctly and probably logging the result.

Its a global pandemic, lots of people doing stuff outside of their normal job, some shout about it, some quietly get on with it. Individuals choose whether or not be part of the collective effort to move us forward. Sounds like the OP's wife, and OP, are quite clear about where they stand.

Rather than kicking back against the college, how about offering to help them develop the testing plan and align with the national guidance?

Amazing how quickly it changed when queried.

Or maybe either your wife or her manager misunderstood what was required in the first place (as many on here have said)? All it needed was a conversation and 'hey-presto' - sorted.

I guess he could have gone running to the Union as it wasn’t in his job spec.

Or perhaps his employer handled/communicated the build up to testing differently.

needs to be less precious and more inquisitive.

Blimey, have you spent much time on STW? 😁 that probably applies to 50% of the threads on here.

She needs to be less precious and more inquisitive.

The insults continue.

dantsw13
Or maybe it was BS in the first place?

She needs to be less precious and more inquisitive.

If she asked the right questions she would almost certainly be told that she doesn’t have to go near a pupil, will just be overseeing them doing self tests. So handing them a test, perhaps watching them doing it, making sure they chuck it away correctly and probably logging the result.

Or maybe either your wife or her manager misunderstood what was required in the first place (as many on here have said)? All it needed was a conversation and ‘hey-presto’ – sorted.

Well, I saw the email saying they're administering the tests - it may have been BS, but I suspect if so it's come from the manager misunderstanding, rather than my wife.

Its a global pandemic, lots of people doing stuff outside of their normal job, some shout about it, some quietly get on with it.

And some smugly patronise others about it from behind the safety of their keyboards.

Her main concern is that I have a health condition which meant I am/was shielding and she didn't want to be exposed to unnecessary risk and in turn expose me.

footflaps

There are some very unpleasant people on this thread with a distorted sense of moral superiority.

Definitely agreed. Thanks to those who offered help and advice.

She needs to be less precious and more inquisitive.

Welcome to International Women's Day - Singletrack style

Her main concern is that I have a health condition which meant I am/was shielding and she didn’t want to be exposed to unnecessary risk and in turn expose me.

If that is the case surely she shouldn't be returning to the school at all?

I doubt that is an option. I know of teachers living with shielding people that had two options… move out… or quit…

johndoh

If that is the case surely she shouldn’t be returning to the school at all?

Are you genuinely asking this, or are you just hard of thinking?

The guidance in relation to shielding is as follows:

"This shielding guidance applies to clinically extremely vulnerable individuals only. Others living in a household with someone who is clinically extremely vulnerable are not advised to follow this guidance. They should instead follow the general advice and regulations set out in the national lockdown guidance that came into effect on 5 January 2021."

Schools are going back. She's a teacher. She has to go back, we're just trying to manage and minimise risk where possible. She was told she wouldn't be face-to-face teaching until the end of March, and as far as we know that's still the case, but now she's having to go in to deal with the testing etc etc.

She was never going to be actually administering tests, someone along the line has misunderstood or worded something badly in an email.

Home testing is being introduced for secondary age pupils (11+) and college students. It is important that pupils and students are initially supervised whilst swabbing to make sure they are doing it correctly. This is why testing will initially take place on-site

Well if she is going back to teach, she is going to be equally at risk as by standing 2m from someone taking a LFT unfortunately.

or are you just hard of thinking

Ohh, I like that one, classy.

This thread illustrates the good and bad qualities of STW very well.

Well if she is going back to teach, she is going to be equally at risk as by standing 2m from someone taking a LFT unfortunately.

Yes - I know - that's the point!

Ohh, I like that one, classy.

Thank you for proving me right so eloquently.

Send an email to her manager asking for written clarification as to whether it is mandatory or not making it clear that she would rather not do it but would be willing if it was mandatory.

Or just do it.

I am not taking sides but getting managers to write down what they have said to you has a strange effect on their memories and how they word things. I was once told by a manager that I had to get the 'dirt' on a couple of my colleagues and find any breach of rules. When I asked for written confirmation I was told I must have mis-heard and I was being asked to keep an eye out for the colleagues to make sure they were coping okay.

IT (obvs) – but I’m volunteering as a vaccinator – does that help?

Such smugness. But missing out the inportant point that vaccinators get vaccinated...

Teachers have specifically been told they aren't getting a vaccine as a priority.

If be telling them to piss off..

If the letter says it’s voluntary the manager has no chance, they should be finding out if the letter is correct and advising you wife to go with the letter for now. Mean time you wife can ask what it will involve and what PPE will be provided so your wife can make a more informed decision.

The kids are sticking swabs in their nose and mouth, you wife will be observing at a distance and recording the child’s name, test details and result. Maybe wiping down the surface afterwards, it’s probably no more risky than teaching.

Yes – I know – that’s the point!

I thought the point was that she didn't want to be involved in the testing because you have a health condition? As she is going to be just at risk by being in the school if she does or doesn't help out, why doesn't she just do it? As I said before, if she thinks it is that much of a risk then she shouldn't be going back in at all.

As I said before, if she thinks it is that much of a risk then she shouldn’t be going back in at all.

Did you not see this:

kelvin
I doubt that is an option. I know of teachers living with shielding people that had two options… move out… or quit…

She has no choice about face to face teaching because funnily enough we can't afford for her not to work and there's no right not to work, but as previously stated, that was going to be at the end of March, when hopefully testing would have identified any immediate infections and isolated those affected pupils, so lessened the risk.

But missing out the inportant point that vaccinators get vaccinated…

I know.... I got my first jab one whole week before everybody in my age group was entitled to it.

Such smugness.

So everybody who volunteers is smug and not doing it to try and help?

So everybody who volunteers is smug and not doing it to try and help?

I got the impression that was directed just at you. 🙂

So everybody who volunteers is smug and not doing it to try and help?

I'm not alone in thinking your comment came across as smug. Maybe it wasn't intended to..

I know…. I got my first jab one whole week before everybody in my age group was entitled to it.

Because I assume you didn't start in your vaccinator role until a week before your age group were entitled to it???

Off topic but I didn't think they accepted anyone in the first nine groups into a vaccinators role? Certainly a few folks on Twitter have claimed this..

This thread is awful. Some people are coming across very badly. Not sure if they are intending to or not, but some of you might want to reread your posts and ask yourselves “Am I possibly being a bit of a dick?” Trying to score points or look weirdly morally superior for some reason utterly unknown to anyone else other than yourselves.

This place is ace ninety percent of the time. This is the other ten percent of complete ballbaggery.

OP - I’m afraid your initial post/tone provoked the responses you got. Look at AA just above. A teacher, who didn’t want to do/help with in-school testing. Nobody is calling him out because he reasoned and stated his position.

It's an emotive topic that has been escalated on both sides. There are a few who need to wind their necks in; having a different opinion and challenging someone else's view is what defines debate but that's becoming a lost art it seems.

(stands back, awaits flaming for having a different opinion on the merits of different opinions)

OP – I’m afraid your initial post/tone provoked the responses you got.

The tone you're talking about is in your head, not in the post. There's nothing in the post to provoke the judgemental responses some gave.

Just access the tonsils via the nose on the first one.

The tone you’re talking about is in your head, not in the post. There’s nothing in the post to provoke the judgemental responses some gave.

Post 1 was fine, I also read as a little leading (unhappy, compulsory, etc.) but it's OK to have a position at the same time as asking for opinions "WWSTD?"

The next 2 took an opposing view; a little snippy maybe but not bad.

Then it escalated, including the OP's first response "wind your neck in" etc.

It's not as one sided as folks would make it out to be. More a case of sides being taken and then entrenched.

This below was the list we were sent when looking at setting up in work lateral flow testing. Doesn't cover training admittedly but clear on the screen, PPE etc. I would imagine schools would be following a similar principle.

Testing Requirements/Equipment
• A test area is required (separate from all activities) containing the following:
 Table
 Protective screen between test operative and team member
 Healthcare waste bin
 Paper towel
 Pen / pencil
 Timer / stopwatch
 Permanent marker
 Trays
 Mirror
 Sick bowl
 PPE
 Cleaning equipment
 Flooring surface that can be mopped
 The test area must be kept between 15 – 30 degrees Celsius
 A smart phone to upload the Test & Trace app for logging results (can be the test operative’s)
• Full PPE must still be worn regardless of negative result whilst in the workplace
• The workplace waste contractor needs to be informed that waste from LFT will be disposed of

I have had 8 tests so far , and there is no way I would want someone untrained to do it . It is bad enough as it is .
I am not sure I would be able to do it to myself either . Surely a lot of those tests came back negative as people didnt push them far enough in their nose !
Not Uk based .

I am not sure I would be able to do it to myself either . Surely a lot of those tests came back negative as people didnt push them far enough in their nose !
Not Uk based

I don't know for sure but I think most tests in UK are self-administered (mine was at drive thru centre)

Surely a lot of those tests came back negative as people didnt push them far enough in

I've done a handful of tests, the ones I do have a line indicating that you've done it properly...then another line if you are positive.

OP, glad it's all sorted. All the teachers I know have been worried about today.

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cchris2lou
Full Member

I have had 8 tests so far , and there is no way I would want someone untrained to do it . It is bad enough as it is .

But in the OP’s wife’s scenario she is not being expected to test, just supervise 16-17 yr olds in taking their own tests and reporting the results back to the NHS

Hey, long time lurker, first time (I think) commenter.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this but for future reference, it might be worth giving Acas a call to discuss the situation. Their helpline deals in advising employees/employers about workplace issues.

Number is 0300 123 1100

For me it's really simple, no one should ask others what they aren't prepared to do themselves.

Oh, and is it safe - and I'd want to know this from an SME, not a politician or someone who's Google'd it.

And remember, volunteers can always be found, for any task...