It's the same weeks every fifth year .
Some 'interesting' assumptions and statements; whether or not 5 months notice is 'reasonable' is for the employer to determine and to describe it is unacceptable is just hot air.
The same time every fifth year is irrelevant; it's for the employee to give the employer as much notice as practically possible to maximise their chance of getting what they want.
My earlier post covered this - talk to employer as soon as you know what you want to do even though the booking system is not open yet; it doesn't guarantee you get what you want but it shows consideration and a mature attitude.
For the posters saying - take an extended sickie, get arsey, employer is being unreasonable etc I suggest you get real and get some understanding of how the world of work really works; have you ever run a business or managed a team?
What Frank said. Some time ago I had to get specific approval from a prison governor to approve leave for a years hence. You can't just expect leave when YOU demand it.
It's the same weeks every fifth year .
Oh yeah. Well there's always next year.
So anyway, I can't sleep thinking about this....
But it turn out there's more.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.
All that was verbal with the same person thats now being an arse, but as holidays are all booked electronically she cannot book for June until her allowance is released in January. She booked 2 long weekends and this 1.5 weeks at the same time, manager sat on it for 3 weeks before saying anything.
Also, she's even found someone to cover for her. Not her job to do that, like, but she still did.
The bloke's a dickhead, the chances are he's just lost the only person that he can't seem to do without.
Tbh I feel sympathy for you, we work 365/24 and my new shift everyone has a family and Christmas is right in the middle of our rotation, so 7 people applied and 2 will get it, there will be butt hurt all round this year
That's not sounding good. Is there another manager she can go to?
Is the manager a TT fan by any chance???
Maybe it will be busy that week because he has a holiday booked...
(TT or otherwise)
I'd love to hear the other side of this...
TBH it sounds like more than enough notice has been given to accommodate the request, and whilst the employer is within their rights, it certainly sounds unreasonable.
Unless they know that that month/week(s) they are getting a sudden rush of work in, new big contract or something, then they know they have to accommodate leave "sometime" so might as well plan for it then.
If it really is as op portrays it, then I'd be doing what they are, looking for another job...
But I also would be (politely) giving the minimum notice possible once I found one, or before the holiday if I hadn't and was prepared to quit.
Sounds a bit tough esp with that notice
As an employer it can be hard, I do my best to accommodate everyone's requests but when basically your whole team want the school hols off it's not always possible. Christmas was the same this year and I took one for the team and worked right through to free up a space for someone who has had a tough year. Saying that I did have to refuse two leave requests for summer as simply don't have any capacity to cover what we know needs done, the requesters left it for 6 months to ask and weren't over the moon. I can't keep everyone happy all the time. If you rang me up I'd explain it to you and wonder why your wife can't hold an adult conversation about it.
You need to make a plan, start a new thread called "help my wife get a new job", because there is nothing left to discuss here.
[i]As an employer it can be hard[/i]
Especially when you've made all your staff redundant and are relying on 1 person to fill in for them.
Teej with his shitty rules and regs. Stick them where the sun don't shine - PP didn't say "Employer breaking employment law" he said "Employer being an arse" (well, he said ass, but you know).. Where's your great URL links to prove that wrong?
Given that notice a good manager would have been more accommodating, unless there is a very good business reason why that time is not acceptable.
It would be interesting to see their justification for repeatedly indicating that there wasn't a problem, then denying the leave request.
DezB - loads of folk making all sorts of weird claims about the legal position and calling it "constructive dismissal" etc. Those links from the TUC state clearly the legal position which is that you cannot decide unilaterally when you take your holidays. The employer may well be being an arse but they are also acting within the law
I asked before but still no reply from PP - have they given her a reason for rejecting her request (such as 'we are starting a big project that week' or 'x also wants to take that week and as you have had that time off every year for the last y years, it's someone else's turn' or anything like that?
The law has F.A. to do with this, its about Mrs PP' manager acting responsibly and valuing their staff.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.All that was verbal with the same person thats now being an arse, but as holidays are all booked electronically she cannot book for June until her allowance is released in January. She booked 2 long weekends and this 1.5 weeks at the same time, manager sat on it for 3 weeks before saying anything.
Also, she's even found someone to cover for her. Not her job to do that, like, but she still did.
Legally yes the manager can and does have the authoritor to refuse, but this looks unreasonable. PP id be suggesting to Mrs PP to inform her manager that she wants to escalate this.
Yes, fair enough TJ, as he also said:
"[i]But legally, where does she stand?[/i]"
@johndoh: "We're busy"
I'd be writing down details of the dates (if poss) when your wife informed her manager about her plans. He sounds a dick from the info presented, but you, PP, come across as very angry and that isn't going to help resolve the situation.
Your wife should escalate this up the chain in writing.
At the very least her manager could have said, " I am sorry, we cannot gurantee you will be granted holiday", or given her a reason why things have changed.
The law has F.A. to do with this
But PP also asked.
But legally, where does she stand? My guess is she can't be fired for it
At the very least her manager could have said, " I am sorry, we cannot gurantee you will be granted holiday", or given her a reason why things have changed.
Yup. But maybe they did we have no idea.
Legally depends on T&Cs. Verbal or email acceptance is acceptance unless t&c states has to be via Hr system
[b]Drac[/b] indeed
Andy - this has everything to do with the law. Manager may be acting unreasonably but, based on PP's posts, also within the law.
PP - why does your wife not email her manager confirming their previous discussions stating that there had been no indication of a possible problem and she would like to clearly understand why there now appears to be a problem. Also state that she had tried to be fair/reasonable/considerate by making him aware of plans and it would have been appropriate for him to raise possible concerns/problems during one one of those discussions. Request manager to confirm - by email - his understanding of the discussions you refer to.
Keep it simple and focussed.
Where does manager sit in company hierarchy?
What size of company?
Do they have HR dept?
Does your wife have a 'transferable skills set'?
How strong is the job market in your area?
..How important is your wife to the TT trip? 🙂
It could be that the manager has been trying all this time to arrange things so that Mrs PP could have that time off but things haven't worked out. The alternative is that they could said "No" up front. That might have been clearer of course but we can't tell from one side of the conversation.
she doesn't get paid anywhere near what she's worth, she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
If this is really the case then she should get another job that pays her appropriately. Why would anyone do this?
Are sure her boss isn't trying to get rid of her?
He must realise how important this annual trip is to you both and if he refuses the leave how much this will upset your wife.
Why would he upset an employee that works for 30% of the going rate?
Money isn't everything. Mrs PP may like the work and the company, plus there may be other factors such as convenience for home etc that are very compelling reasons for staying where you are. Sure, we would all like more cash but it is more complex than that.
It is tricky in this situation without knowing all the facts but it does seem unreasonable based on what we have heard from PP. There's no evidence from the information so far that this is a business that has key periods that limit what leave can be taken (eg taking leave in December when working in retail, or leave in April/May when working for an accounting firm) so, on the face of it, the boss is being a bit of a ****.
on the face of it, the boss is being a bit of a ****.
Maybe he is. It's allowed, unfortunately.
she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
So she's showing herself to be a bit of a pushover. They maybe wonder what else they can get away with.
Has she considered escalating to HR for a formal reason if here boss won't give her one.
I assume that she has enough nous that she's not trying to go on holiday when theirs a major event taking place that she's closely connected to.
she doesn't get paid anywhere near what she's worth, she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
This is a pretty meaningless statement- what's 'covering' mean- looking after their phone while they're on holiday, making recommendations to them, making decisions for them?
It's very unusual in organisations to find such a salary spread (amongst permanent staff) without much of a jump in grades.
tjagain
Those links from the TUC state clearly the legal position which is that you cannot decide unilaterally when you take your holidays. The employer may well be being an arse but they are also acting within the law
Except OP's missus had her leave verbally approved prior to spending money. That changes things quite a bit.Might have helped if it was in the OP, but never mind.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.
The employer is entitled to cancel leave (which is what they have done - verbal approval is binding) but if they don't have a good business reason for doing so then everything gets a bit murkier. Estoppel could easily be claimed and there's a stronger argument to constructive dismissal if other options are available to the employer.
This needs escalated above the manager's head. Could submit a grievance too.
Leave. Simple
Could submit a grievance too.
Because that always ends well. 🙄
+1
Crap idea
verbal approval is not binding when you have clear procedures in place as the company does- and anyway the "verbal agreement" is not actually agreement from my reading of the comments"
It really grinds my gears to be defending bad employers but the law here is clear and PPs wife has no grounds for any action nor has she been dealt with unfairly
I disagree, the pond is already poisoned now, and it seems to me she's been reasonable. Sounds a bit grim now we have some details.
Given the politics she can either look for a new job or suck it up.. either way, I'd put it to HR in the frame of a formal grievance, I.e it was verbally approved by x on dates y and z and has now been withdrawn, leaving you financially out of pocket.
She's basically going to have to formally call her manager out as a liar.
But I appreciate she may not have the will for that.
Sorry, misread on the first page.
nor has she been dealt with unfairly
You're probably right on the legal front, but you seriously don't believe someone (allegedly) grossly underpaid being denied a holiday request with five months' notice and having arranged cover is being treated unfairly? Jesus, remind me never to work for you.
Official notice period here is two weeks, but before now I've rung my boss at 8am and gone "can I have today off please?" and got it. Thinking about it, in all my working life I don't think I've ever had leave requests rejected, not without very good reason anyway.
If I were so critical to the business that they couldn't do without me for a few days with five months' notice, I'd expect that to be reflected very highly indeed in my salary.
OP, in your OH's position I'd be spending the next five months jobseeking with a vengeance. Life's too short to work for unappreciative nobbers.
She's basically going to have to formally call her manager out as a liar.
Unless I missed something he hasn't lied.
The only practical, sensible solution, if she wants to carry on working there, is go and see the boss, sit down and explain the situation, how important this leave is to her and how much she will lose financially if she can't attend.
If the boss cannot give a reasonable explanation why the leave is being denied and won't budge, then it would be quite a clear signal that he wants rid of her.
After that go to HR and escalate but don't expect the working environment to improve.
Start looking for another job.
I agree with cougar, I'm 100% happy to grant leave even with no notice, IF it's doable, it's less leave I have to worry about rostering in when it might be more tricky.
But that doesn't look like the situation we have here...they either want her out, or she's so operationally vital they can't do without her..with 5 months notice.
Meanwhile Mrs PP is chatting to her friends "He is trying to drag me to the bloody TT again, he went and booked it without telling me so I've tried saying that I can't get the time off work, but now I think he is going to come in and talk to my manager, what do I do?"
how do they cover her leave on the other dates?
Meanwhile Mrs PP is chatting to her friends "He is trying to drag me to the bloody TT again, he went and booked it without telling me so I've tried saying that I can't get the time off work, but now I think he is going to come in and talk to my manager, what do I do?"
Bravo! Best post so far!! 😉
have you checked mumsnet?
Our underwriters are banned from taking holiday over Xmas as its renewals time and therefore everyone is needed in the office. Busiest day in the office last year was the 23rd, it was bedlam. Everyone accepts it, its rubbish but then the summers are normally really quiet.
There's two issues here.
One is that your wife's employer won't grant her the leave she wants.
The second is your wife's employer is an arse.
Issue 1: not much you can do about it. Her boss can decline her taking leave if he has a valid reason. If not, maybe a trip to HR to discuss it, saying that you need a break because you're so overworked. Just taking it anyway despite being told you can't have it will result in disciplinary action and possible dismissal and she won't have a leg to stand on.
Issue 2: Either go down the formal route with HR and see what can be done regarding working hours, pay and so on. Or get the CV out there and start interviewing for a better place to work.
Or go to the doctors and get signed off long term with stress...
Cougar - "unfairly" as in the meaning of it in employment law.
I've been a union branch convener and a senior manage with hire and fire power. I can see this from both sides and my history on here includes a lot of advice to workers being treated unfairly.
In this case unless other workers have been treated differently then there is nothing "unfair" in the legal sense about it
Right. I got 4.5 hours sleep last night. I've not read everything above but
I asked before but still no reply from PP - have they given her a reason for rejecting her request (such as 'we are starting a big project that week'
It's the end of quarter or something. She has to run some reports, basically. They've got rid of nearly everyone else who can do this. (IT company....) so that's her problem it seems.
Her manager is generally not a bad bloke. I've not met him but he seems to value her (mostly) but her workload is too high. He's not flatly refused this leave as yet apparently but it's not something we can move. It's not school holidays.
She's been upset about it at home more than once. She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
We're going to drink tea and do her CV tonight.
Honestly, if she comes home tonight and says she's quit I'll be happy. She won't but I wish she would.
Maybe others that could cover have already booked holiday in June?
My wife wanted time off in March but was told not possible so she's away now - not ideal but no complaint.
We had a contractor who's been with us for 3 years who booked a holiday in Dec then asked for time off. It was problematic for us but agreed it in the end. Unfortunately he came back to get given notice on his just renewed contract - I think the holiday was the last straw really.
So employer not doing anything wrong IMO but if they're not good people to work for anyway then I'd be interested to see if I really could get a doubling in salary by moving jobs....
Grumpysculler - PP has not said that leave was verbally agreed; 'no problem' could mean several things and without knowing clearly how the manager in question responded to Mrs PP you're speculating.
'No problem' could mean - I told manager and he said......nothing; thanks for letting me know; ok; yes, that should be ok; yes, that will be ok so submit your request when the system opens and I will approve.
The absence of a negative does not mean a positive so unless he unequivocally said 'yes' and that can be proven, nothing changes.
Its a real bummer and I sympathise despite my comments about the legalities of the situation.
Polishing up the CV seems a good idea.
How I would approach this:
Back to the boss stating ( very politely and meekly) that she really wants to go on this trip, explain the reasons for the asking prior to the leave window opening and that she booked on the basis of his answer to this and that she is now dismayed at the response from him, feels devalued and taken for granted and in the light of this will be looking for another job. Do this more in sadness than in anger. Then back up this meeting with an email and then print off the email and replies.
It's the end of quarter or something. She has to run some reports, basically. They've got rid of nearly everyone else who can do this.
You don't have a leg to stand on. Sorry.
She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
Do you mean Christmas day? If so, that's shite and unfair. I'd of told them to do one.
Manager says yes in the beginning.
Their boss then says no.
Manager has to retract verbal, non-binding agreement.
PP pays for holiday before being 100% sure.
Plan backfires and manager is the bad guy.
It really is a non-issue.
Or go to the doctors and get signed off long term with stress...
As an employer myself, I find it quite distasteful that anyone could think this is a fair way to resolve an issue in the workplace.
It's the end of quarter or something. She has to run some reports, basically. They've got rid of nearly everyone else who can do this. (IT company....)
Can she not suggest she does the majority of it before she goes then handover the last few days to someone else?
Maybe others that could cover have already booked holiday in June
No. Nobody else has anything booked.
Can she not suggest she does the majority of it before she goes then handover the last few days to someone else?
As I already said, she's found someone to cover her but the manager isn't happy with that. Dunno why.
---------------
I've got a sneaky suspicion it'll be approved shortly.
It really is a non-issue.
Not for PP and his missus it's not.
Then a bit of negotiation should be in order to ensure someone can cover - depends how demanding running the reports is I suppose.
Their boss then says no
No it's him directly.
As I already said, she's found someone to cover her but the manager isn't happy with that. Dunno why.
Perhaps the manager isn't confident about allowing this other person complete the important task?
You both seem poorly paid and in an expensive part of the world. Could this be the push you need to look for jobs (rather than just a job for Madame) in another part of the country/world. A good mechanic can make money anywhere so your wife would be able to search far and wide.
I was in a similar position and just had to cancel my plans (no financial loss unlike yoursselves - but at five months you can probably negociate on the accommodation and may get some of the ticket price back). It was one of the demoralising factors that resulted in me resigning and making a new life for myself - thank you miserable incompetent line manager.
Thing is, there's nothing unreasonable in what we've done. We've given a MASSIVE amount of notice, played by the rules and the spirit of the rules and then they attempt shaft us. That's what pisses me off. I can put up with all sorts of crap, but mess with my time off and I'm gone. We'll be at the TT
The worst that can happen is she gets fired. I'm happy with that, but I don't think they've got the balls personnaly.
The best is that she goes somewhere else. Also fine.
I've been saying they treat her like shit for 10 years at least, but it's too easy to turn up and take the money. I've been there when I was younger, done a crap job because it's easier. I was lucky that my kick up the ass was redundancy but I'm wiser now. That's why I only stayed in my last job for a year before going back to the previous job. It's slightly easier for me but there's jobs so local she can walk to work.
Nuff said from me.
Good luck - I feel your pain, I like to go to NZ for a few weeks sometimes, the sooner you book the cheaper it is, but can't get leave authorised that early. Bit of a punt.
The manager won't (shouldn't) deal with you anyway about your partner's HR situation and you will make her look like she can't manager her own life. You have a better chance pleading your case and asking nicely.
You have a better chance pleading your case and asking nicely.
The only chance even. Unfortunately some people don't respond to pleasant, reasonable requests as they'd feel less important than they do being a *. Experience tells me that *s rarely get fired.
she doesn't get paid anywhere near what she's worth, she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
well then resign a week before the TT and some other idiot will soon be recruited to work longer for less pay, as is the current employment situation now, its happening all the time and workers seem to have to accept it, or just moan on a cycling forum.
She's been upset about it at home more than once. She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
That is just wrong and needs to be dealt with.
Can she not dial in to run the reports? That's what I do when I'm off. Sounds a bit shite all round. You should (and I can't believe nobody has suggested this yet) own him with bombers or wee in his shoes. Possibly both if he's displaying high levels of cockwombleness 😉
Standards STW standards
she doesn't get paid anywhere near what she's worth, she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
Doesn't mean anything. Nearly everyone (okay, a slight exaggeration) thinks they can do their manager's (or manager's manager) job. Some are right, some are delusional. They also think higher qualifications or decades of extra experience shouldn't mean you should be paid more. Well, work doesn't really work like that, does it. Unless you are flipping hambugers, and nothing more, things are rarely that simple.
I'd be leaving. If she's been there 10 years and it's a company of a certain type, chances are they'd pay her a lot more if she came there new tomorrow.
Definitely time to look around.
And/or, she's got 5 months to figure out a way of automating the reports, or at least creating a report template which can run off a spreadsheet data-dump that someone else can do. She's got Q1 to practise.
I'm quite prepared to get her managers phone number and tell him myself, and I might well do that
That is a terrible idea, probably one of the worst things you could do.
She can get a new job paying at least twice as much, immediately, within walking distance of home ?
If that is genuinely the case you wouldn't see me for dust.
She's been upset about it at home more than once. She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
TJ, would this fall foul of "fairness" perhaps, then?
I'm quite prepared to get her managers phone number and tell him myself, and I might well do that
"I'm sorry, but I can't discuss employee details with a third party as it would be a breach of confidentiality. Bye, sir."
The OP’s other half should count her self lucky, LUCKY to have such an important & respected job. Such jobs are like verrucas – not everyone's got one.
I know for a fact that her manager is almost certainly worrying about this very decision. And when they are down the boozer, I imagine.
Moreover, the senior managers will be cutting back on their salaries and golf carts almost as we speak to ensure such a strategic issue does not have such an unreasonable and cranky point of failure.
Come the time of the TT, I’m sure they will keep the OP’s partner up to date with the developments on the Isle of Mann – perhaps (and it wouldn't uprise me) they might be watching it live so they can give her instant updates.
And let’s be honest, she can’t be that good if she the only one who can do the reporting – if it was hard, loads of people would know how to do it.
In the distant future, in the dotage of her old age the OP’s partner will positively glow with the knowledge of a worthy job, done well for a company that was going. Places.
Ask any lowly, menial, unimportant, grunt worker if they would change the time they spent working at shambolic, badly run failing mess and everyone (52%) will say “I was so lucky. It was all I was capable of, I knew my place. I wouldn't have it any other way – they were good times – [i]better [/i]times.”
And even if her line managers seem, shall we say a bit 1970’s, she can look to her co-workers for her just rewards - maybe they will shower her with “likes” on Facebook – no better thanks than from those “gone before” given to the last [s]mug [/s]man/woman standing.
The main “take-out” from this, of course, is that mangers have a difficult life – goodness knows the professional path to leadership is a long one – people who leave companies (or “quitters” as they are known) don’t occur often, you have to carefully bully and engineering the removal of “trouble makers”, ingrates will leave a sinking ship like the rats they are and, of course, people don’t die that often.
So to sum up – congratulations on your retirement/happy birthday/good luck on your marriage (you’re going to need it!) and you are real asset/sad loss and we all appreciate your hard work.
Leave. There are proper employers out there.
Not in my view cougar - unless it meant 4 xmas days and then only perhaps. I have worked all bar 8 xmas days in the last 37 years
I've given up trying to book the TT, am currently looking at the Southern 100. Maybe see if you can get those dates and switch the ferry booking?
I've given up trying to book the TT, am currently looking at the Southern 100. Maybe see if you can get those dates and switch the ferry booking?
Subtle! I see what youre trying to do there 😉
Manx GP is a good trip too. Bit less mental. There's the Manx 2 day trial to follow if you take mtbs. Great days out.
very good, BVP7!
Not in my view cougar - unless it meant 4 xmas days and then only perhaps. I have worked all bar 8 xmas days in the last 37 years
Hmm. I'm slightly of the opinion that "but I've got kids" shouldn't automatically trump anyone else's perfectly valid reasons for wanting time off at Christmas. What if I want to spend time with my elderly mother (she's got kids too - me)? But then, I'm not a parent so probably biased. Or, y'know, if I was deeply religious or something.
Seems a bit shit to me that someone gets preferential treatment year in, year out because of their lifestyle choices. If I was being stiffed every year I'd probably have a monk on about it.
If I was being stiffed every year
If you have kids, it's twice a year.
Christmas and your Birthday. 😉
Get out of my head. (-:
You're probably right on the legal front, but you seriously don't believe someone (allegedly) grossly underpaid being denied a holiday request with five months' notice and having arranged cover is being treated unfairly? Jesus, remind me never to work for you
I've just refused a holiday in summer for a member of staff. His team had already been halved by holiday he'd approved so he can't go. It's 7 months notice but it's not even remotely unfair. Everyone knows that except in cases like Xmas, bridging days for bank holidays etc that it's first come first served. If he can negotiate with a colleague to swap with him then he's on again.
She's been upset about it at home more than once. She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
Meh. Everyone has reasons they have priority for certain holiday periods. If she wanted to take an Xmas off she should have tried to book it and spoken to her boss. However this is a good example of a problem. For some people Xmas is a priority, for some the TT. How do you manage to keep everyone happy all the time. You end up, for the most part, with most people mostly happy or at least mostly equally unhappy.
I've just refused a holiday in summer for a member of staff. His team had already been halved by holiday he'd approved so he can't go. It's 7 months notice but it's not even remotely unfair. Everyone knows that except in cases like Xmas, bridging days for bank holidays etc that it's first come first served. If he can negotiate with a colleague to swap with him then he's on again.
Seems reasonable to me, there's a perfectly valid business case here and an option to take it if he can find cover. Neither of which seems to be offered to Mrs OP.
Im sure it goes without saying but whatever you 2 decide to do make certain that you are not putting your wife under any pressure to do what she doesn't want. For some people the idea of looking for a new job is pretty terrifying and they are privately willing to put up with hell to avoid it.
