[Closed] Employer being an ass. Advice please.

Most contracts state leave is at the managers / employers discretion. Just phone in sick, what can they do? Just drink too much while you're over there, take a photo of her vomiting and send it in.

She's requested holiday and not been given them. If that's because her employer is too busy then that's a genuine enough reason.

If she doesn't go in, they've every right to sack her.

if they want to play that game they've taken me on as well.....

But to my mind they're being unreasonable here

If that's because her employer is too busy then that's a genuine enough reason.

Nature of business might be intriguingly relevant here. Totally understand if you can't/won't disclose, PP.

Your other halfs employer is not under a legal obligation to approve exactly the dates you want year after year.

If it doesn't suit the needs of the business and there is inadequate cover then they're behaving perfectly reasonably. It's not very nice but that's being employed.

I manage holiday requirements for a team of about 12 people. I try hard to find ways to say yes. Every once in a while I say "no" because we can't accommodate it.

I get told "no" about once every three or four years myself so I'm not immune to it either.

and we've laid out £500

Before you've got the holiday signed off?

She's requested holiday and not been given them. If that's because her employer is too busy then that's a genuine enough reason.

Yup that's it but I'll add they're doesn't really need to be a reason.

If she doesn't go in, they've every right to sack her.

Quite. You've kindly told them you're going away so may not pay you for unauthorized absence or worse.

if they want to play that game they've taken me on as well.....

No they haven't and you ranting at them won't help.

Cant see how they are being unreasonable. Just because you've had your own way in previous years.

Before you've got the holiday signed off?

No choice. That's the way it works. She can't book holiday until January, we had to pay up in December
We'll be going either way. We don't live to work. Screw em.

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She's working on her cv as we speak, by the way.

Can we rename this thread to [i]employee[/i] being an ass now?

[quote=PeterPoddy ]Before you've got the holiday signed off?
No choice. That's the way it works.
We'll be going either way. We don't live to work. Screw em.

Why can't she book her holiday a year in advance when you book the tickets?

Probably just as well but no employer is going to guarantee holidays when you want them.

If they can't organise cover when notified 6 months in advance then IMO that's a problem. I wouldn't be pleased at all and that alone would probably make me look for a new job. Appreciate every industry is different etc etc.

Employer being an ass

We'll be going either way. We don't live to work. Screw em.

Uh-huh 😆

If all her other requests have been approved it doesn't seem like they're just being awkward. Maybe other people have already booked for that period and they'd be genuinely stretched if your wife was off then too?

Bah, don't worry about it, life's too short, just go

It's a pain but they're within their rights.
You kinda jumped the gun splashing out on non-refundable things too early.

Now they know she wants to go she'd get fired for calling in sick.

Basically, you're ****ed. Get a mate to go with you

If they can't organise cover when notified 6 months in advance then IMO that's a problem. I wouldn't be pleased at all and that alone would probably make me look for a new job. Appreciate every industry is different etc etc.

You can't create cover if it's not there no matter how much notice.

Cant see how they are being unreasonable.

OK. They make people on double her pay redundant because it saves them money. Then she ends up doing their jobs for half price. A few months back I had to beg her to leave work on time because they were taking the piss making her work overtime for free. The workload is too high for the pay, no doubt about that.
Becaus of the cutbacks there's nobody her boss trusts to cover for her, allegedly, even though she's found someone who's said they can and will do this. That's why they're being unreasonable.
They're screwing her and I don't like it, I guess anyone should feel the same about their wife, right?
And now they're screwing with me too.
Anyway. She's gonna tell em to poke it.
Goodnight all. 🙂

EDIT
Oh yeah, she's given them 5 months notice. They don't know their arses from their elbows at the best of times, but a) they've got time to sort cover and b) they haven't got a jeffing clue what they're doing that far in advance in my opinion.

Well there is time to get a new job, sounds like a crap job anyway.
That is probably your only option.
They are unfortunately correct though, and you getting arsey with them will not have any positive outcome.

Playing devil's advocate, you've known for a year when the event is, and she's left it till two weeks prior to book it? That's daft.

That said, I've always viewed holiday requests as "holiday notification." If you can't do without me for a couple of days you're not paying me enough.

[quote=Cougar ]Playing devil's advocate, you've known for a year when the event is, and she's left it till two weeks prior to book it? That's daft.

It would be if it were correct, but they've got about 5 1/2 months till the TT...

If they can't organise cover when notified 6 months in advance then IMO that's a problem.

That does suggest some management issues to me.
But they are well within their rights to refuse specific dates.

If you'd thought about this three months ago you could have got her pregnant and then they'd have to give her the time off 😉

Couger - IOM TT is in June not February - edit as above

lol at the pregancy jibe

tomorrow on my wifes birthday she has to take time out of her job (paid on performance) to cover her boss who'd double booked himself to give a presentation at the local school where her daughter was badly bullied & the school did **** all about it 👿 sometimes you just have to suck this s**t up

PP - every 5 years, you must have hit the monsoon in 2012?

I do agree that not booking the holiday when you book the holiday is crazy though...

Sorry - holidays are taken by mutual agreement. Having holidays refused and going anyway is gross misconduct and would lead to her instant dismissal without a reference, I as an employer would not employ someone who had done that.

The employer may be being awkward however she / you are 100% in the wrong.

[i]Can we rename this thread to employee being an ass now?

[/i]

More like STWers being the arses.
Employers pay shite wages and expect to bloody own people's lives. Luckily I've never worked for anyone like that and sounds like you haven't either.
Sounds a bit like things I've heard about the NHS. Some people going off on "Stress" for months on end and the ones left behind to cover for them then aren't allowed any leave. Anyway, telling them to poke it sounds like the best result.

If you've got children, request time off for the kids 😀

https://www.gov.uk/parental-leave

[i]If you've got children[/i]

They haven't.

I agree that, that much advance notice shouldn't normally pose a problem, but to take it as a given is also a bit inconsiderate, as it's not been approved.

Are there any other issues underlying or has it been denied for operational reasons?

For peolpe who aren't in the know, its impossible to get ferry to IOM TT unless you book 12 months in advance

I'm with Dezb, been on the receiving end of stupidity when it comes to taking holidays, I worked over a year never being able to take a Friday off because my boss was too scared to ask anyone to cover

You work because you have to, the least they can do is meet you half way

PP - every 5 years, you must have hit the monsoon in 2012?

Yup. We were fine in our MSR but there were lots in Tesco tents that weren't.

But to my mind they're being unreasonable here

PP - i can understand your frustration but equally (having been on the other side) the company's position. You have to balance business needs, others' wishes etc and sometimes you do have to piss someone off.

Tread carefully would be my advice.

IMO refusing leave being booked 6 months in advance, unless there are specific company rules about that time period, would be deemed unreasonable behaviour by the company if it was presented in say a tribunal for constructive dismissal.
First thing is she has to push them to refuse or approve the leave, don't just leave it hanging as a maybe, if they do refuse they do have to give a reasonable reason "we might be busy" would not be acceptable as reasonable.

I know this is a bit after the event but.......it might have been sensible to advise employer of holiday plans at time of booking - or before - even though their holiday booking system wasn't open yet for 2017; then confirm by either letter or email.
It wouldn't guarantee they would say 'yes' but it would definitely have made it made it much more likely than it now appears.
Whatever happened in previous years is irrelevant.
One thing is for sure - any employer who believes an employee is being arsey will quickly deliver a lesson; everything within the law but.....
If she wants to stay there, be pleasant and discuss amicably with employer.
If she isn't bothered, good luck with the job search.

OK. They make people on double her pay redundant because it saves them money. Then she ends up doing their jobs for half price. A few months back I had to beg her to leave work on time because they were taking the piss making her work overtime for free. The workload is too high for the pay, no doubt about that.
Becaus of the cutbacks there's nobody her boss trusts to cover for her, allegedly, even though she's found someone who's said they can and will do this. That's why they're being unreasonable.
They're screwing her and I don't like it, I guess anyone should feel the same about their wife, right?
And now they're screwing with me too.

Ignoring the holiday thing as they're right. They sound crap to work, sounds a bit like what I've heard of the private sector. Sounds like looking for a new job would be good. Don't forget to tell them during the interview about her booked holiday. Well maybe let her tell them rather than you.

Possibly her employer wants ridance of her sees it as a good way for her to efectively terminate her employment, perhaps ring the tt and ask them to delay the races because she cant get time off work, or hope the thing is cancelled .

To qualify what I said, as a manager, I'm happy to grant leave when it's operationally sensible, it means to me, I've got less leave to worry about planning in when it might cause more difficulty.. even with one day notice I'll grant it, if possible as it's one day or some days less I have to worry about covering later in the year.

I'm with Dezb, been on the receiving end of stupidity when it comes to taking holidays, I worked over a year never being able to take a Friday off because my boss was too scared to ask anyone to cover

You work because you have to, the least they can do is meet you half way

I do agree that not booking the holiday when you book the holiday is crazy though...

It's not possible. She can't book until January and we had to book the ferry a year in advance. She's given 5 months notice. That's more then enough IMO. I left a job last year and one of the major reasons was their stance on holidays. I can put up with all sorts of crap, but mess with my time off and I'm gone.

They're screwing her and I don't like it, I guess anyone should feel the same about their wife, right?

😯 damn straight!

Yup. We were fine in our MSR but there were lots in Tesco tents that weren't

Only year I've been, we had an early morning return ferry but packed up the night before & slept in some of the abandoned tents so we didn't have to pack up in the morning, a week of rain was more than my mates triumph could take, couldn't even bump it down to union mills 🙁

specific company rules about that time period,

There aren't. Her manager is shitting himself because he might have to do some work, and, err, manage the situation.
That's about it.

They'd find a way to cover if she gave them a month's notice...of leaving.

She can't book until January

Well if all goes to plan I might see you at the TT. I will be the one wearing a hat 😯 My first time there. BTW I am self employed so I will have to sack myself. 😀

MSP - no chance at all it would be constructive dismissal. Ridiculous suggestion. the company have an absolute right to refuse holidays without giving a reason.

It wouldn't be constructive dismissal in itself, but as an example of behaviour wouldn't look good for the company.

They do not have a right to refuse holiday without a reason. You are legally entitled to holidays, some rules may be set out in your contract, but they cannot refuse your legal entitlements without a good reason.

It does sound harsh unless there's some politics going on in the background, but you should also get approval before booking stuff.

As a more constructive solution how about a "What can I do to make this work for everyone?" conversation with her boss?

Who do you think gets the best result...

Someone who comes wading in with demands and a whole load of Kevin the Teenager attitude

OR

Someone who says - I see your issue - I don't agree entirely but I figured out how we can make it work and subatantially address your concerns.

I'd just go in and start smashing stuff up.

Let us know how you got on.

From your description of her working conditions it sounds like they need her, and are getting a bloody good deal too. That being the case i'd push for a definite decision and tell them that if refused I would have no alternative but to take my talents elsewhere. It doesn't have to sound like a threat, but it is. so only do it if you can back it up.
EDIT: When I say you I mean her of course, its not your place to go fighting her battles unless specifically asked.

MSP - 100% wrong - holidays are taken at mutual consent - they cannot refuse you to take your holidays but the time at which you take them has to be agreed by both sides. YOu do not have a legal entitlement to take them when you wish - only that yo have leave and it must be granted within the leave year

If an employer does not want you to take a particular week they do not have to give a reason- although a good boss would and you cannot demand which weeks you take.

Depends on jursidiction.
My understanding here (not UK) is that they can refuse, but must provide a good reason ( eg for operational reasons) for doing so.
Both parties would normally not take the mick.

If the employer's reason is "we're not sure what the schedule and cover situation is going to be like", then the employer needs a new manager.

you do not have the right to determine when you take your annual leave.

https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/hours-and-holidays/holidays/my-employer-will-not-agree-my-request-holidays-summer

My employer tried to take my holidays away after them being approved for 10 months last year. They had business case. (Due to paying off loads of folk we were short staffed)How ever they also came at me 2 days too late under my contract and id already been shafted by them and had done 3 months straight between oz and africa.on operations i needed my holiday more than i needed the job.

I went on holiday didnt feel guilty

I still work here.

Pete, you sound like the sort of chap who shouldn't be messed with. I reckon you need to go and pay her manager a visit.
Round up a couple of mates, put your leathers on and ride down to her office on your bikes.
I reckon you need to sit outside with the engines running and wait till Manag-her leaves the office for home. As he's walking to his car, you and your mates want to ride toward him then start circling him, revving your engines loudly.
He'll be cacking himself, his guard will be down; anything you request from him, he'll make it happen...."otherwise, there'll be trouble"
Everyone knows not to mess with a man in leathers.

That is mean. You should be able to book hols a far ahead as you want. Get another job.

Why should you?

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😀

😆 @taylforth !

Drac - Moderator

If they can't organise cover when notified 6 months in advance then IMO that's a problem. I wouldn't be pleased at all and that alone would probably make me look for a new job. Appreciate every industry is different etc etc.

You can't create cover if it's not there no matter how much notice.

Then that's a stupid position for a company to be in and would be an even bigger problem for me. What if there was an emergency/illness etc that required similar time off? If someone is so critical to an organisation that leave can't be booked 5-6 months in advance (refused for unspecified reason?) then something is really wrong. I'd love to take a look at their business continuity/contingency plan and their risk register.

Pete and The Gang

Then that's a stupid position for a company to be in and would be an even bigger problem for me. What if there was an emergency/illness etc that required similar time off?

No it isn't. A company should have enough to cover for holidays and a little extra for emergencies. Allowing people to take holidays as when they insist causes issues for those requiring emergency leave.

TUC site

Unfortunately, under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (WTR), you do not have the right to determine when you take your annual leave. Therefore, if your employer has a genuine business reason, it does not have to agree to your dates.

The Regulations allow your employer to require you to give notice, equal to twice the length of the holiday requested. Your employer can also insist that you take your holiday at a particular time.

Can my employer make me take my holidays when they want, rather than when I'd like?

Yes. You do not necessarily have the right to choose when you take your holiday, and your employer can tell you when to take your leave.

It's for good reason leave has to be approved, and any half decent manager would never decline leave if they can help it, but if you have a team of spotty teenagers who all want to book the same weekend off for a music festival or something, then it's obvious that it's not possible and some will be declined, for genuine operational reasons.

Hence why holidays need approval.

Seems there's more going on here, did she seek approval or just take it for granted that a lot of notice is justified ,approved or not?

In reality it's often a negotiation, but there's no legal standing in demanding certain dates off.

Whatever the legal position any company that won't let you take a holiday when they have been given 5 months notice is probably not worth working for anyway . I would try to talk to them and explain the position and if there was no resolution I would be looking to be in a new job by the time the TT came round .

The fact is a lot of companies can't afford to pay two extra full time staff at a cost of say £50k for the pair a year just to act as floaters to cover random leave requests.

Because most of the time you'd basically be overstaffed, and losing money paying people to do nothing for a lot of the time.

Random? The same weeks 5 years in a row with 5months notice. Hardly random is it. You don't need 2 full time floaters ffs. Just a bit of sensible planning, OT, rota changes etc. Different if there was a critical event due to take place over the same period, but why not just be upfront and tell her that.

I digress though, 5 months notice is plenty... If it's approved and not taken as an assumption.

But it sounds like the op took it for granted rather than getting it approved formally.

Whether the manager has a personal issue or is just a knob, who's to say.

It is a bit more random than every year it's the same weeks every 5th year . Still totally unacceptable from the employer though .

At HMPS we get our leave apps in September, in which we apply for 'block leave' from March the following year till February the year after (the leave I'm currently on was granted in October 2015) If that makes sense?
We booked a cottage on South Uist for June this year before our leave apps came out & luckily I/we were granted the request, If we hadn't there would've been some right shift swapping going on!

Any company doesn't have to grant leave exactly when you demand it.

It is a bit more random than every year it's the same weeks every 5th year .

So it is, I misunderstood the OP.

If we hadn't there would've been some right shift swapping going on!

Exactly. There are other options such as swapping holidays with another employee. Maybe someone else wanted those weeks off and have had to wait 5 years to get them. Hardly seems fair taking the same seeks off every year.

Out of interest- has she been given a reason why she can't have that time off?

Today she tells me they're being difficult about it. "Not happy with you taking the time off. We're busy" etc

maybe someone doesn't want to go....again... 😉