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As some of you might remember I am still doing up a flat. Almost finished but a mate today told me I couldn't have the sink next to the hob which is a pain as thats how I have planned it and there really is nowhere else for both to go due to space constraints.
I can't find any regulation on this just that its best practice to have at least 300mm between the hob and sink ( electric hob) Trouble is If I move the hob over it will then be too close to the upright fridge which is surely worse?
The hob has to go in a run of worktop of 1000mm sink one side, tall fridge the other. If I put it in the middle then I only have 200mm each side - not enough to put a pot down or do anything useful. Butt it up close to the sink which works best for the extractor and I have 350mm between the hob and the fridge. Put it 300mm from the sink its then only 100mm from the tall fridge
Any clues anyone?
What does the person signing this off as safe say? What would a different inspector say in the future (is it controversial)?
Privately owned flat? Get it done how you want.
might be worth thinking about the sink material if it's that close. presume you have an oven beneath the hob?
do you risk cracking a ceramic job? would a metal get hot.
how was it setup before the refurb?
our old place had a built in fridge next to oven and hob. no issues in 10yrs
Timba - they guy who is going to test and sign off the electrical installation is not sure. He thinks there is a minimum distance but I can't find it in any regs
DT - the kitchen was in a different room before the refurb. Its a ceramic hob and a metal sink. Oven is beneath the hob.
Its less than ideal and is not good practice but I can only find advice not regulation and the hob manufacture has nothing specified about distance to sink
Recommendations again but unless someone on here is able to actually quote regs, then I'd be looking for a copy of that BS6172 Electrician's Guide.
Privately owned flat? Get it done how you want.
True in a 'who'd ever know' sort of way but you are still required to conform to regulations, and could cause issues if you later come to sell or rent, and also possibly if the worst should happen for insurance.
it a rental and I want it fully legal. Otherwise I wouldn't care.
Fridges are designed to run in countries where the ambient temp may be 40 degrees all day long. I doubt using a hob next to it will generate that sort of air temps around the evaporation fins that surround the condenser low down on the back of the unit. I checked this out a while ago and the consensus seems to be that there is no harm having a full upright oven next to a fridge so long as there is a reasonable air gap between them. With a surface hob and no oven it shouldn't even be a issue at all.
EDIT ... I see you are fitting an oven!
Can the fridge go elsewhere? If not does a kitchen that size need a double height fridge? If you are committed to that layout I'd put the oven near the fridge rather than the sink if its a rental.
the oven is no issue - it the placement of the hob ( built in oven, separate hob cut into worktop)
The reason for not having the hob next to the fridge is that heat can damage the sides of it. I can't find any regs on placment of the hob next to the sink. I don't want to relocate it as all the electrics and extractor are in and they would all have to be moved if I relocate the hob
Can you buy a smaller sink?
the sink is already fitted into the worktop 🙁
Only isue I can see is the radiated heat from a hob. As you say this could cause the plastic sides of a fridge to deform or mark. Not going to be much of an issue next to a sink. TBH if you went ofr an induction hob you could probably get away with it next to a fridge.
Is it a sink/drainer or just a sink? If a sink/drainer will the hob be next to the sink or drainer side. I wouldn't be happy with handles hanging over either. Again if i't butted up next to the fridge you'd have nowhere for handles to go.
Agree 350mm either side of a hob won't give you any usable workspace but it does give you space for handles and a tea, beer or wine. That would be my preference but does that leave any other worktop space? if not then I'd be looking at under unit fridge and freezer. They are bloody annoying but I'd rather have worktop space for rolling out pizza dough etc.
its sink / drainer with the hob next to the sink part.the hob has to go in a 1m run between the sink and the fridge. tall fridge is bought and in place, plenty of worktop elsewhere in the kitchen but the hob cannot be fitted into the other runs - sloping ceilings so no room for extractor / not enough clearance above the hob. Same with the sink - it really cannot go anywhere else.
I'd stick it at the midpoint between sink and hob then.
How about a two ring hob? If it's a rental and obviously a pretty small kitchen, do they definitely need the four?
That would leave a fairly useless 200mm each side and cause issues with the extractor hood as there is a joist in the way ( tho not insurmountable)
what I really need to know is having the hob next to the sink actually against regs or just not "best practice"
I think I need to take some photos for you guys. Hob is already bought - its not that small a kitchen but just very awkward with sloping ceilings
The only one who matters is the electrician who is going to sign if off under Part P or not (or whatever the Scottish equivalent is). What does he/she say?
I'd be more bothered about sockets than a splashproof hob.
They guy who is going to sign it off is not sure 😉
General layout
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Where I was going to put the hob - puts the extractor in the best place for aesthetics
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HOb centralised - makes fitting the extractor a pain and leaves a fairly useless space each side
[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1883/43556326345_fbaa0f6ac0_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1883/43556326345_fbaa0f6ac0_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/29mVykT ]DSC_0586[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
Hob moved as far left as possible - I would have to move the cooker switch and FCU that is running lights ( possible) and lose the socket completely ( a pain)
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Surely if it's properly earthed and appropriately protected by RCCD, I can't see any issue with them being closely co-located.
Quick google search shows you can actually buy an integrated hob and sink unit.
Obviously too late now but if it was me I'd have originally specced it so the sink/drainer was one unit to the right so the drainer is tight up to the wall - that space is next to useless anyway (especially as there are no wall sockets close-by for something like a coffee maker to sit in the corner).
And FWIW, I had some electrics moved recently (so I could knock through an access door into our garage) and it put a wall socket too close to a sink unit in our utility room. After lots of sucking in through their teeth I managed to convince the fitters to do it and sign it off despite it being marginally (like about 60cm) too close to officially pass.
Why didn't your fitter anticipate this before you'd done the sink cutout and connections? Is there any crafty joinery to reverse it so the drainer is next to the hob?
Also, what is the maximum clearance between the edge of your hob and those sockets?
John - if I had done that then it created further issues - the sink is then in the corner unit so no carousels to get access to the corner unit and the sockets on the wall on the right would have to be moved even further away - I can't have a socket in the corner with the sink where it is - too close to the sink.
It seems that meeting all the regs and " best practice" is impossible in this space. 🙁
Martin - the fitter is me! I could reverse the sink unit but then lose the corner cupboard and the sockets on the right are then too close to the sink!
Ta muchly for your thoughts folks.
from a practical perspective having no worktop to put dirty dishes on to the left of the sink could be an issue - no idea how long the hob woudl stay hot for but temptation would be to stack all the dirty crocks on it and then people will burn fingers picking stuff up?
I could reverse the sink unit but then lose the corner cupboard
I'd rather have the clearance and lose a third of the height of the corner cupboard.
I don't see any issue with the sockets as you have them on the right (I believe 300mm clearance is required?)
can you swap the sink round?
If not I'd buy a version with the drainer on the left and fit that. be really easy to swap it out take you less than an hour
Possible to swap the sink around but really not easy at all - at least a days work ( everything is sealed in and I would have to lift the worktops) I would then lose the corner cupboard - the plumbing would make the carousels impossible
is say losing some of the space in the corner cupboard is preferable to moving the hob.
not sure why you would need to remove the worktop to demount and fit the sink, but as you fitted your the expert!
Trouble is, apart from the furthest right positioning of the hob, it looks to me like it won't comply with the socket where it is (Plus having the hob out of line with the extractor and oven deeply offends my OCD, and is likely to do the same for your prospective tenants).
But the clearance to the sink bowl at that point also makes me twitch a little, even though potentially you 'might' get it signed off.
No contest for me - turn the sink.
DT - some of the fixings are inaccessible with the worktop fitted!
I can move the electrics but unless the hob is furthest right then I cannot have a socket on that wall at all - no position meets regs
martin - I can move the extractor but not easily.
If you're moving the extractor to increase clearance to the right of the hob, you'd be moving all those switches etc as well. And it would still look odd overlapping the oven.
Least worst, unless I'm not seeing something, has to be reversing the sink.
Why not have the hob on the island bit?
nwm - thats the only space to eat at ( no dining table - , intending to have stools at it. there is enough knee clearance and extraction while not impossible is tricky
Extend the worktop to the left and have under counter fridge (and freezer if required)?
If that was my kitchen I would want the sink under the window. How expensive is your worktop? Again, if it was mine I would rather pay for new top and get it right, than compromise. You will have to live will it for a long time once its done.
My guess is that the reason for keeping the hob and sink apart is water close to electrics. Old-fashioned electric rings could allow water into the inside, but if your ceramic hob has a single sheet of glass over it, it's waterproof, so not a problem?
thats the way I see it graybeard.
trailwagger - can't have the sink under the window unless you are a midget.. Not enough height to stand up unless its all pulled a foot into the room. Its not for me anyway - its a rental
Gas hob with igniter controls to the left/splashproof igniter control? IAMNAGE
Turning the sink unit won't necessarily achieve what you want because the tap is fairly central. Anything else is additional work and/or encroaches on the corner carousel that I get the feeling that tj would (understandably) rather avoid
kitchens are no longer identified as a special location in BS7671* so correspondingly also not in part P of the building regs. Part P does provide guidance, namely;
accessories** should be installed a minimum of 300mm from the edge of sinks or draining boards, which it looks like your ok on. Also mentions a few other relevant bits, which looking at your photo all look fine. Not saying there isn't another building reg that prohibits position of your hob.
*the latest update has just come out, not in force yet, don't think it's changed, but not up to speed with the 18th edition
** accessory defined as "a device, other than current using equipment, associated with such equipment or with the wiring of an installation" basically sockets and such like
OP please please learn from my experience.
As a rental property someone is paying you to live in a safe environment.... if anything did ever happen (I know it will not but you never know) you would be held responsible.
In a similar circumstances where arguably I hadn't contravened building regs.... ( I had lived in the property myself without a problem, 4 different families over ten years had done the same once I started renting it out and the lady who I had to settle out of court with !! had happily live in there for 5 years ).... but one day something happened (or maybe it didn't and she hurt herself elsewhere) and it was me arguably responsible.
You never want to be even accused of this..... A few extra days of work, expense and stress now will be nothing nothing against if something ever did happen.
So please, for yourself, put it absolute right now.
Good luck.
What Ro5ey said.... well worth the extra expense/hassle to avoid compensation/conviction at a later date.
A swift redesign and a couple of days work will sort that.
Best wishes
Having a nose about a new student accommodation today and seen the layout of some of the communal kitchens.
Update
In the end the guy signing off the electrical and fire certificates passed it fine. I have warned the tenants to be cautious, they are not bothered at all.
Ruddy certificate guy found a few other issues for me to fix tho but at least gave me 6 months to fix them