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I want to remove the old fuse box from the detached garage as it has been replaced by a new RCD consumer unit that has a completely new and separate cable in from the house. The old fuse box is still connected to the old cable coming in from the house which runs into the concrete floor, under the patio and into the house at an unknown point.
The consumer unit in the house has an RCD labelled "Downstairs Sockets and Garage" so I assume the garage is just a spur taken off the downstairs ring and some unknown point under the floorboards somewhere so I can't just disconnect the garage.
What's the best way to remove the fuse box and wiring from the garage without digging up the floor, patio and house floorboards?
My plan it to turn off the electrics, cut the cable leading to the fuse box in the garage near the garage floor and connect the ends of that into a junction box to terminate it. Although it doesn't completely remove the cables, it will suffice.
Is this safe to do?
I can ask my son, he's an apprentice electrician, he starts in September...
Can you ask him to make an uneducated guess now?
That's what I have done 🙂
That's what I'd do. I believe the regulations just stipulate that the junction box should need tools to open.
Sounds like it’s already terminated safely in a junction box…
Do you have to remove the old fuse box? If so a junction box where it enters the garage is fine.
It is possible that it's spurred off from a socket on the ring, so have a look inside the sockets nearest where it would leave the house.
Let me get this clear... you have a new RCD CU in the garage, what is that connected to?
If it comes off the home CU then it should be labelled there, so could that now be “Downstairs Sockets and Garage”
My plan it to turn off the electrics, cut the cable leading to the fuse box in the garage near the garage floor and connect the ends of that into a junction box to terminate it
Is the old CU live? jam-bo +1
Bottom line; don't touch anything unless you know that it's electrically safe and not going to mess anything else up (including you)
PHONE AN ELECTRICIAN.
I have see what you can do with just a ladder...
My son's happy to consult via Teams, £100 fee but doubled today due to being a teenager and it's before 2pm.
From the RCD CU in the house, a dedicated big armoured cable was run from the house down to the garage and the sauna / hot tub. This was required due to the potential current draw from the sauna / hot tub. The armoured cable led to a new RCD CU in the garage which we wired in all of the garage lights and sockets as well as the cabin lights, sockets, sauna and hot tub. This was all checked and signed off by a professional electrician at the time.
The old fuse box could just be left alone as it has been for the last few years but it is a big box in the middle of a wall that I could really do with using for other things.
I have one of those buzzing wands to tell me if the wires are live but I will probably just turn off all of the power to the house before cutting things anyway.
I will terminate with a new junction box with about 30cm of cable between the box and where it emerges so I have something to work with if I need to change my mind.
If the lights dim across Hampshire a bit later today you will know it didn't go quite to plan.
Is this safe to do?
Yes.
WorldClassAccident Free Member
No.
I would use a big junction box, 45a but mount it up high. For belt and braces grey a small grey enclosure, ip55 or above and a gland.
Switch off main house feed.
Check loads of wires with wand to hope they all be dead.
Unscrew terminals and release cables from old CU with insulated screwdrivers
Now, using the back of your left hand swat the cable like you are brushing a wasp off your jeans. No shock means good to go.
Screw enclosure to wall away from floor
Feed cable through gland into enclosure.
Screw wire into terminals inside 45a j-box
Place jbox in enclosure
Screw face plate onto enclose
Tighten gland on base of enclosure
Turn on power
Chevk with wand
Then do the fly swat test
Ianae napit niee or any other standard sparky.
17962 from screwfix should see you right.
I've paused Vikings Valhalla to reply. The irony of Valhalla meaning "hall of the slain" isn't entirely lost on me 🙂
"Buzzing wands". Here's a page from https://voltstick.com/how-to-av/videos-and-blogs/correct-use-of-a-volt-stick to show you the things to be aware of.
The job isn't a difficult one, but asking the questions that you're asking then I'd be wary of not knowing what you don't know. A definitely dead circuit is essential
If the cable from the house is accessible outside it might be better to get the electrician back and terminate it in an outside socket.
The old fuse box could just be left alone as it has been for the last few years but it is a big box in the middle of a wall that I could really do with using for other things.
Such as a nest box for baby robins?
17962 from screwfix should see you right.
How about 61236?
Do they sell defibs?
I know the answer
Now, using the back of your left hand swat the cable like you are brushing a wasp off your jeans. No shock means good to go.
errr, you sure about that 😳
errr, you sure about that
Yep - pretty standard, shock just causes the hand to recoil away.
Lost could of the number of 240v shocks I've had over the years. First one was age 3 (in the days of hand wound fuses). Burnt the end of my finger off sticking it in a live light fitting with no bulk in there. Still have no finger print on that finger! I was given a penguin biscuit as a reward for it.
I switched off the RCD marked Downstairs Sockets and Garage
The buzz wand still buzzed at the fuse box
I switched the RCD to the new garage CU
The buzz wand still buzzed at the fuse box but no where else in the garage
I switched off all the individual RCDs in the house
The buzz wand still buzzed at the fuse box
I switched every big and little switch I could find in the house
The buzz wand still buzzed at the fuse box
I decided that I will call an electrician during the week.
Not to disconnect the old fuse box but to run our house from it as it appears to be powered by magic that bypasses our electricity meter and everything!
Did you switch off the main 60a double mcb at the end of the house cu? This should make the entire property dead.
Then no circuits should illuminate the wamd, anywhere
Yes and that is what confused me. All the circuits in the garage were off and silent when I poked them with the buzz wand except the cable coming out of the floor.
It wasn't as loud as it originally was but there was a definite noise when I held the end of the wand against the insulation. Quiet but definitely there.
Normally I would just cut it as it is only 240V and I have had a few of those shocks over the years but I was lying under the bench in the corner of the garage with lots of hard things to hit if I did get a jolt plus my wife was watching and she doesn't find that stuff amusing anymore.
...it appears to be powered by magic...
Assuming that the wand isn't faulty it's sadly not magic, it'll be coupling to a source. It's most likely a supply cable that runs nearby, overhead is best for this. It could also be the fabric that you're dressed in or your contact with the ground.
Electrician is the best way if you're unsure
Probably just found out you have been connected to the neighbours supply all this time 😉😂
You shouldn't really use a non contact voltage to detector to prove a circuit is dead.
You're making lots of assumptions about the electrical supplies origins and configuration.
If you're not experienced in safely identifying and isolating electrical circuits, then employ an electrician. It'll take them a couple of hours at most.
I have seen a shed once powered from a nearby lamppost.
Here's a basic isolation guidance procedure.
https://www.jib.org.uk/safe-isolation-procedure
Also, it's not the voltage that will kill you, it's the current. And it only take a fraction of an Amp to stop the heart, a fuse or breaker will not help protect you from a shock, only a 30mA RCD/RCBO will do this.
An arc flash from an electrical short circuit is hotter than the surface of the sun, even at 230V AC. It will still give you a nasty burn and could even blind you. Fancy having tiny bits of molten copper exploded into your face?
There has been numerous electrical query's on here over the years with lots of spurious advice. They often get pulled by the moderators. This'll probably happen here too.
They often get pulled by the moderators.
That I don't believe.
Also, it’s not the voltage that will kill you, it’s the current. And it only take a fraction of an Amp to stop the heart, a fuse or breaker will not help protect you from a shock, only a 30mA RCD/RCBO will do this.
It's actually pretty hard to kill yourself with 240v. Possible yes, but you've got to be pretty unlucky. I've had dozens of main shocks in the 70s and 80s (pre-RCD) as did my father before me (hobbyist in the valve era in the 50/60s) as did my grandfather (worked on early radar).
Back in the 80s pretty much everything I built was powered by mains, all open plan on my desk - would get a shock most times I built anything...
I'm sure it will be fine... Oh hold on, OP is WCA! 😉 😆
Relax guys. I do actually check I am less likely to die before doing stuff and when really unsure - as now - I call in the professionals.
I have previously successfully converted an integral garage into a dining room, built the infamous Garden Cabin, rewired the attic and built an art studio, etc etc etc. I got an electrician mate to check most stuff but he has now left the area.
The only time I got an electric shock recently was when wiring a garden pond pump. I turned off the power in the garage while doing this but someone walked into the garage and noticed the lights weren't working so switched the power back on. Most injuries I have seen or got from domestic supply 240v are bruises on hands and arms where you pull away suddenly and hit something else, hence my comment earlier about working under a bench with lots of things to hit.
Sparky will be along to do it next week.
My parents house still has the hand wound fuse box I used to blow in the 80s when one of my projects when bang...
They had a load of solar panels installed last year, I thought they would insist on upgrading it all, but no, just installed it alongside 1960s fuse box.
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That's positively modern compared to the ones in my old house.
They often get pulled by the moderators.
That I don’t believe.
Nor do I. It's possible that others beat me to it of course, but I don't remember doing that ever in ten years let alone "often".
It’s actually pretty hard to kill yourself with 240v. Possible yes (snip)
Sometimes it's necessary to work on an energised circuit but generally best avoided. Your forebears would have had the knowledge to reduce the effect, e.g. not holding the screwdriver with both hands, but it's entirely possible at lower voltages which is why site transformers are 110V and centre-tapped to shock you with "only" 55V
My parents house still has the hand wound fuse box I used to blow in the 80s when one of my projects when bang…
They take an age to blow in comparison to an RCD and at a higher current than the nominal 5A or whatever. Not recommended.
I thought they would insist on upgrading it all, but no, just installed it alongside 1960s fuse box.
Probably because if they don't have to get involved in the original installation then it's quicker, easier and they'll only be certifying their own work. Depends on the work done tho
I've previously commented on electrical threads which disappeared (2 from memory). I assumed that they had been pulled on safety/liability grounds by the moderators. If they weren't pulled then God knows what happened to them and I apologise on my assumption.
As for the folk think it's perfectly fine to get the odd 230V AC shock, you're obviously bigger risk takers than I and goes against the general thinking on electrical safety.
OP.
As an electrician my only advice is to get in an electrician (which it appears you are doing anyway). Those non-contact wand things are ok for a visual indication but definitely do not replace an approved voltage indicator. It'll be a quick job to remove the old CU and make it safe and neat & tidy, although I'm intrigued to know where the feed is coming from.
I've given some snippets of advice on this forum recently but it's a slippery slope as it convinces folk that they can do more than maybe they should, and when they run out of ability/knowledge/luck it can leave circuits in a dangerous condition. Yes, RCDs have made electrical systems much safer than they used to be, but still too many fires are caused by faulty wiring. Remember that electrical faults might not manifest themselves straight away and while fatal electrocution is quite rare deaths by fires caused by arcs etc are still an issue. It's not for nothing that electrical apprenticeships are for 4 years.
Remember Grenfell was caused by a faulty fridge freezer.
AFDDs and SPDs are now available (an AFDD would have avoided the tragedy), and are recommended for new installs, but have only been mandated in certain high-risk installs.
As Harry Enfield said, "know your limits"!
Is the redundant garage fusebox connected to any sockets where you could test if its still live when you flip the switch on the main box?
I'd never just rely on the buzzy wand !
Potentially as others have said it could be powered by your neighbours!
Our place had two fuseboxs, and the circuits between the two properties had been mixed up over the years. That was fun working our!
I decided that I will call an electrician during the week.
Is the correct answer.
You win.