[Closed] Electricians - does this look right in our kitchen?

The mice are sneaking off your electric to run their homes with....

DrP

Well if that's not technically 'off', it certainly looks shit. :-/

😀

Actually, I can't understand why there's a join there anyway?

also noticed there's some blue/brown cables visible under the socket in the cupboard, this is for the washing machine, surely the outer (grey) part of the cable should go into the socket? ... It's all just so poorly done!

What is the socket for? and where do the cables that its connected to go to/come from?

Certainly wouldnt want a socket directly under the sink and jammed under pipes that could drip condensation, and not that shoddy connection under the floor (needs a junction box).

If the sparky is giving you a cert, get the cert then get someone else to check/fix odd things and make sure its safe.

Yep, shoddy, that join should be in a junction box.

Not compliant as is but easily fixed. If it were mine I'd drill a hole in the base of the cabinet below the socket so the cable runs straight down. Run some mini trunking to a junction box vertically below. Put the joint inside the box. Replace the poorly fitted crimps with a wago or similar and properly sleeve the earth. Rest of the cable should be clipped to the wall as well but that is less critical IMO.

I'm no sparky but that bottom pic shows a bit of exposed live core very close to the unsheathed earth - might upset your rcd's , rcbo thingywhatsits..

is stevie wonder your sparkie ?

That looks like the sort of thing you find in a foreign hotel bathroom[shudders]

Wouldn't it be better to have the socket at the back of the washing machine aperture rather than under the sink? WM cables tend not to be very long.

I'd have your electrician back to rectify properly. If I pay for a job I expect it to be done properly and to a better standard than I could achieve.

Was it Bodgeit and Scarper? 😀

[i]at the back of the washing machine aperture rather than under the sink?[/i]

Except you'd need to pull machine out to access it and it would affect how far you could push the machine back under the worktop.

On our one the sockets are in the same cupboard but, looking at your picture they'd be on the left hand 'wall' and above the level of any joints in the pipes.

Not to standard...unsheathed earth, visible conductor on the live, and if it were in an enclosure with the cable secured there would be less risk of pulling the joint apart when you pull the cable.

I would have thought those crimp on connectors are not suitable for solid core cable anyway...they are the sort of thing I have used on my vans 12v electrics which uses braided cable.

I think if the washing machine socket is inaccessible they should fit one of those neon indicator switches above the worktop so you can turn it off, like you would with an electric cooker or immersion heater.

Previous occupant fitted one for the washing machine in our place, but then put the boiler in front of it, so you can only turn it off with a wooden spoon poked down the gap 🙄

I would have thought those crimp on connectors are not suitable for solid core cable anyway.

They're not rated / suitable for mains solid core, you get very little friction (as the solid core doesn't deform unlike multi-core) and they pull apart really easily.

Need to use one of these

[img] [/img]

IANAE but if I was to correct that I'd be doing what nickjb said, plus moving the socket to the top right of the cupboard.

But that's not really the point, you're paying for a professional job so that is what you should get.

Very shonky. As t'others have said , any join needs to be in a suitably rated ,accessible junction box. Plus the location of the socket!!! Crikey.

Is that a bleed point right above the really badly connected exposed cables?

Has that been done by a kitchen fitter or a bloke from the pub?
I very much doubt he'll be getting an EICR with that install...

If by some chance the installer is a member of NICEIC, NAPIT or more likely ELECSA there are complaint lines you can call to report the work.

The spark will need to be a member of a professional body to be able to certify the work. Find out who that body is and report to them. They should come and inspect, your local building control officer should be interested as well.

Horrible job.
Confused over some things.
The yellow crimps are for 4-6mm cable.
The crimped cable seems to go into that 13A unswitched socket.
So is that a 4mm or 6mm T&E coming off that socket, and feeding what.
If the cable is 2.5mm then get the wrong crimps off and wire into a 30A JB.
If it's 6mm and feeding a cooker? connect into a 60A JB and that 13A socket shouldn't be in the circuit.

That's pretty god damn terrible to be honest. I'm not a Sparkie and sub my electrics out on my kitchen fits but....

I put appliance sockets in cupboards but certainly not under water supplies. The term for sockets is accessible. In an adjacent cupboard is accessible, an FCU above the worktop with outlet behind appliance is accessible, plug and socket only behind appliance isn't accessible. Some sparkies 'interpret' the rules slightly differently but it should be safe.

That crimped cable is nasty too. It's probably been crimped because the original wire wasn't long enough to reach the desired socket position but it could have been done a lot neater than that. It should be double insulated so the crimps or wago blocks should be in an enclosure really. The conductors shouldn't be visible and the earth should be sleeved. You shouldn't be able to see the coloured cores outside of the enclosure either (patress and socket in this case)

Blazin - do you mind if I ask your advice as I'm currently kitting my own kitchen? Question with Pics at the bottom of this thread:
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/new-kitchen-install-tips-please

joints need to be in an enclosure. wago or similar would be my preference. crimps are fine if the correct size and a propper ratchet crimper is used. earth needs to be sleeved and no conductor (copper) exposed outside the crimps or inner sleeve (blue, brown or earth) exposed outside of the junction box/ wagobox/ socket. cable needs to be clipped to wall.
fitting in under sink cabinet is allowed but is not the best idea unless no other accessible cabinet close by.
as said by others the electricians body (NICEIC/ ELECSA etc) are the people to call although they will ask if you have discussed it with the electrician first.

IANA sparkie, but, that looks poor.

As above, re: large size of cable - has he tapped into the cooker feed? The mains looks big. Our cooker isn't RCD'd (our electric install is 10yrs+ old, regs may have changed, everything might be RCD now) so my first thought is, has that socket even got the right protection on it.

Let alone the mechanical aspects of the socket install. Socket under sink, no; bare earth, no; sheathing not fully into socket, no; drain point ready and waiting to dribble all over the exposed copper... could go on.

Interested in this as we have just had a kitchen installed and the quality of the work has been generally pretty good, however we have a switched plug in the sink cupboard (as it is adjacent to the dishwasher).

Before I sign it off as being completed to my satisfaction should I ask them to move it or is it really very unlikely to be an issue? (ie, I don't want to make work for the sake of it, but at the same time I want it to be compliant and pass the relevant regs and receive my certificate).

A socket is fine under the cupboard, ok, not ideal but nearly every kitchen design these days has a dishwasher or washing machine next to a sink cupboard and nowhere else to site a socket. I try to put them in a corner well out the way of any potential leak.

Thanks all, 😆 at some of the comments.

The electrcians website has an ELECSA logo on it so I'll be emailing them. Looks shoddy to me but so do a lot of things in the kitchen. I could've done it better myself but I can say the same with most of the kitchen.

work like this pisses me off, I bust my balls to give as good a finished product as possible, meanwhile Cowboys seem to get away with it whilst taking people's hard earned and giving the rest of us a bad name.

Blazin-saddles, it infuriates me too, trouble is until we have some kind of official body that actually deals with this, straight away, they'll just keep getting away with it.

Me partners sister lives in Australia and she can't believe Trading Standards won't do anything, she said if you make a complaint there they go and see the company immediately asking why they're not doing work correctly.

It seems here everyone buries their head in the sand. I was told once, by trading standards, that they can't do anything unless they receive a lot of complaints about a company/person. So all someone needs to do is keep changing their trading name. But how many people actually complain? Some people don't know how to, are scared to or just put up with a bad job.

That's as impressive as the B&Q fitted kitchen , which was fitted a year before we moved into the current house. It fell apart soon after, so I ripped it out and started again. This is what we found behind the tiles. No proper termination, no protection trunking and the ring main had a single cable running off it to a washing machine and the cable thrown over the cabinets and the plasterboard just smashed off and the cable dumped in and slapped over with tiles.

Connection point

[IMG] [/IMG]

Cable heading south to the washing machine with precision plasterboard trimming

[IMG] [/IMG]

Luckily our kitchen redesign meant nothing was going to be reused and was all stripped out. But was a shocking mess.

Kojaklollipop - Member
The electrcians website has an ELECSA logo on it

Not surprised from what I've heard of ELECSA...

Worked in a block of flats the electrician had wired the cooker up to an 13 amp plug socket, and cooker didnt then work, blew fuse, and when i washed my hands in the sink heard running water and the sink trap hadnt been connected to the soil pipe resulting sinks contents running down the outide of the pipe run through 3 floors.

Then a bathroom with a jacuzzi bath all the wiring exposed under the bath,and no earths to anything.

best to get the whole kitchen checked out if done by same person

The thing is, as a good trademan once told me, it can be just as much work to do a job badly as it can be to do a good job. I just don't understand how some of these people think it's ok to do work like this.

lerk - is ELECSA no good then, I'm I likely to get nowhere or no joy with them?

We're not using the kitchen and don't intend to until we know it's ok, we can use the hob but not keen on using the electric oven.

Exactly, it takes nearly as much time to do the job badly, so why not just do it right?!?

From what I've heard (I'm an industrial spark, not domestic - so not directly involved with any of them) they are gathering the bottom end of the market by offering lower membership fees and having lower entry requirements in addition to fewer verification activities.
Your install certainly seems to validate that opinion!

Probably didn't have a junction box in the van, so just cut a few corners to save the hassle of driving to Screwfix to spend £1.50.

Surely he could have at least used 30A screw clamp chocoblocks, who doesn't have some of those lying around?
At least they would be screwed then rather than just relying on compression.

As far as I am aware, there's nothing wrong with crimps, as long as they're done properly with a ratchet tool and the correct size. They should however be in an enclosure or double insulated, wrapped or heat shrink.

The screw type blocks are actually worse as in theory the screws can come loose, Wago blocks seem to be the current preferred method. Both options should be also in an enclosure so a junction box may as well be used.

Yes, he probably didn't have a JB on van at the time, doesn't make it right though.

Nothing wrong with crimps if fitted correctly, classed as a permanent connection that can be buried in walls or floors.

From what I've heard (I'm an industrial spark, not domestic - so not directly involved with any of them) they are gathering the bottom end of the market by offering lower membership fees and having lower entry requirements in addition to fewer verification activities.
Your install certainly seems to validate that opinion!

ELECSA - I have emailed them the same images and more as the work under the cooker wasn't great, we had bare connections there too but saw them earlier so he put a plastic box around them like this ...

[IMG] [/IMG]

Is there another professional or regulartory body that I can contact to get this assessed? Rlectrical Safety Register? Although a quick google shows this is now 'electrical competent person' website He is listed on this.

Is that your new cupboard in the last photo? The leading edges of that carcass look a bit chipped.

Nothing wrong with crimps if fitted correctly,

Personally I wouldn't use them without additional strain relief, you'd need a lot of pressure to deform a 2.5mm single core enough to give reasonable pull resistance, and if you crimp over too narrow an area with too much pressure, you just crop the crimp in half as they're very cheaply made.

dooosuk - that's the bottom of our new electric oven, it's just delivery protection tape on a stainless strip that we haven't taken off yet. But another thing you might notice is that we don't have any 'end support panels' on our cupboards, this was something another kitchen fitter noticed 😐

[i]I think if the washing machine socket is inaccessible they should fit one of those neon indicator switches above the worktop so you can turn it off, like you would with an electric cooker or immersion heater. [/i]

This is what we've just done with our Utility room. All the white goods have a long enough cable to be able to plug into a socket directly behind and the switched indicator shows you they are on/off.

Personally I wouldn't use them without additional strain relief, you'd need a lot of pressure to deform a 2.5mm single core enough to give reasonable pull resistance, and if you crimp over too narrow an area with too much pressure, you just crop the crimp in half as they're very cheaply made.

I did a 12 week domestic installers course about 10 years ago and crimps were the preferred method of connection by the NICEIC at the time if it wasn't going to be accessible. Jb's have a tendency to work loose.
I prefer wago connectors but they can be too bulky if trying to fix or extend a cable that's in a wall.

 

Well, if anyone is interested ...

I went to see the kitchen company today. They haven't been responding to emails so I've started to take copies in to them and asking them to sign a receipt just to confirm that they have had that printed copt of the email. So the husband part of the owners told the woman, who we've mostly been dealing with, not to sign anything. I try to explain that it's only to confirm that they've had this copy and I won't leave until they've signed for it. Long story short the husband starts kicking off, swearing and shouting at me to get out the shop, claiming I've been a pain, claiming that they've never had complaints before, saying take them to court. All this was going on while they had a rep from some company in the shop.

Shame no customers were in there.

saying take them to court

In that case, get another electrician in to make it good/safe

then https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court

If you haven't paid them in full yet, don't. Not until everything is signed off, preferably by someone not employed by them.

Sound like a nasty lot.

Yeah, nasty, we've only had to deal with the woman so far, she just seems incompetent, but now we've seen what the husbands like.

From what I've heard their sons have taken over the work and things aren't going well, the husband used to do quality work and their son's are not chip off the old blocks so the company id under a lot of stress. If that's the case don't take on the work! Mental!

But have you paid in full?

go see them on a saturday and sunday early in january when there are customers 😉

No, not paid in full, but they have had a large chunk (which I'm so annoyed at myself about)

They also claim to be a member of something they are not (not going to say what), so that's going to be under investigation.

I'm trying to get other kitchen companies to have a look and quote for the work to be brought up to standard so I can put it in writing to the company, not having much luck so far. I understand why companies don't want to do this but it's draining trying to sort all this out 😥

iKBBi? If so I wouldn't worry about that too much as it's a bit of a money making exercise as far as I can see, no real benefits for with installer or customer.

I think the best thing you could do is what you've already proposed. as long as you have the stock on site already, don't pay them anymore money, get quotes from independents to sort out and then small claims to original firm or offer them the chance to sort out to your satisfaction.

I've had some advice from a solicitor.

Basically I can only claim for anything above the original quote that it costs to get it put right. I have to get quotes so I'll be looking for the best fitter I can find! I have a recommend electrician coming tomorrow so I'll get a cost for putting all that right. But, we do still need to give them a chance to put things right 👿

Looks like the kind of shit DIY job I used to do when I was 20 and knew no better. Does the spark actually have any qualifications?

Yeah, sparky does have qualifications - according to his website. But he and the guy that did our kitchen were both young, we've complained about their work a few times and nothings been done about it. Our kitchen is quite shocking, I've had a few kitchen fitters to come in to have a look and one said it looks like amateur diy. Another said that the electrics have not been done by a qualified electrician.

We have a long list of faults we want dealt with but I just don't think they are capable of it, it just seems odd that the owner shouts at me telling me I've been a pain and that I got what I signed for. If it was all ok I wouldn't be complaining!

How did you pay? The credit card company will have an interest here (if you used credit)

You could consider involving LA building control, feeding into trading standards, for any electrical issues. This might open other cans of worms too

You need to post pictures of shoddy work on here.
Then tell them you'll name and shame. This place will finish them. ha.
We had a bad do with a "kitchen fitter" a few years ago , who I sacked after 3 days.
Super stressful times if i recall...

I was thinking about Building Control yesterday. I'm not 100% but I think if you move the consumer unit you're supposed to notify them unless a qualified electrician does it and certifies it? Maybe someone on here might be more clued up on this than me?

Yes its all a bit stressful at the moment, unlikely we'll have a finished kitchen by Xmas, they started back in October. We just don't want to go in there 😐

I feel your pain - ours was meant to be finished 6 weeks ago, finally completed on Sunday and got our Christmas tree up.

Now in a whole new world of mess as now our windows are being replaced!

Hope you finally get a positive outcome.

For those interested here's the latest news..

Electrician been around and was really apologetic, says he's going to sort it all out and that he doesn't usually work like this, no excuse really!

We had a letter from the company confirming our meeting today, noticed they'd cc their solicitor in it too, first bit of proper communication we've had from them, they must be worried.

We've got them on fraudulent misrepresentation so contract is basically null and void, but that doesn't help us with getting our money back as it's still down to us to take them to court. It's so frustrating that there isn't some legal body or government department that can just make them accountable for what they've done and make them pay up or sort it out. What's the point of having regulations, laws or codes of practice? 👿

Playing devils advocate. If the electrician doesn't normally work like that, why did he this time? Or is it just because normally no one flags it up?

Hope you get it all sorted with the minimal amount of stress.

Or is it just because normally no one flags it up?

Yeah, had me wondering this too! If I wasn't around to check on things and the kitchen finished and all the plinths had been put in place anything could have been hiding. There was someone earlier that posted some class work from BandQ. And, if you get a little old lady that knows know different they'll believe a so called professional.

The company has agreed to sort the kitchen out and we've got it detailed in a proper letter. This will include re-doing some pipework, moving cupboards and fitting filler panels, changing a cupboard size to accommodate our washing machine better, end support panels, retiling, sorting the floor out, sorting the sink out, a few other bits and pieces and a good tidy and clean up.

We feel a bit better, but it shouldn't have got to this messy stage in the first place!

We had building work done and the electrician was employed by the builder rather than us. Everything seemed fine but when the builder received the certification he wasn't happy, looked to him as if it had been printed at home. He did a bit of digging and discovered it was all dodgy and he'd used the details of a company in Yorkshire to issue the certification, he wasn't part P registered at all. We had everything then rechecked by another local company who were able to sign everything off. They found one small issue that needed changing but nothing dangerous and they commented that it was a lot better than much of what they see in similar situations. Trading standards got involved and we gave statements but for whatever reason they decided not to prosecute him. Looking at the wiring in your kitchen I'd be straight onto them.