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The mains to the house splits into 3 under the stairs after the main large fuse.
This goes into:
1. A small fuse box for wall sockets.
2. A larger fuse box for lighting, garage, alarm.
3. A very old switch that feeds the boiler.
The boiler is upstairs and has a fused spur up there too.
I'd like to replace the very old switch that feeds the boiler. Is there any reason for not just using a fused spur? I'll be paying someone to do it but don't want to be oversold anything unnecessary.
Is there any reason for not just using a fused spur? I’ll be paying someone to do it but don’t want to be oversold anything unnecessary.
When you say after the main fuse, do you mean the main household breaker it doesn't run though a distribution board/consumer unit so isn't on a breaker of its own?
No of course not, that would be silly.
It wants to be wired onto the consumer unit panel with a proper breaker, get rid of the fused isolator completely, it doesn't serve any purpose the rcd next to the boiler isn't already doing... [Edit to say, assuming it's doing nothing but the boiler, as below, there may be other reasons]
But, I'm going to suggest this has been bodged to take it off the distribution panel as your boiler keeps tripping a proper mcb or rcd when it fires up so, rather than fixing the problem has been "hidden". Is it a fused isolator switch at the boiler or an rcd?
Get an electrician to come take a look.
From your description of the install, there’s plenty of potential reasons why this isn’t feasible. Get an electrician to take a look, be prepared there may be more work involved than you think*
*I’m an electrician btw
don’t want to be oversold anything unnecessary.
Prepare to be disappointed - from your description I expect any decent spark to be recommending a new consumer unit if not a substantial re-wire
From experience, I think you'll get two kinds of quotes:
1) To re-bodge the bodge that is already in place
2) To replace the current bodge with a proper consumer unit and other necessary remedial work, because the current bodge is, well, a bodge.
Option 2 will be significantly more than Option 1, but would you trust anyone that was happy doing Option 1?
When you say fuse boxes do you mean modern consumer units with an RCD and MCBs (little switch 'fuses' or do you still have old school rewireable fuses. If the later the whole lot needs to come out and a new consumer unit installed. It's possible a lot more needs replacing as well if this is the case.
Our boiler is on a fused spur from the kitchen ring main as it sits in the kitchen, although for historical reasons the cable has a tortuous route upstairs and then back down again through the ceiling.
Remembered now, it's an old school boiler with a separate pump, which sits upstairs in the airing cupboard, so all the CH related electrics are on the same fused spur, even though they're sat on two different floors...
I tend to label all the spurs saying what the fuse rating is and where it comes from, as I can never remember when I come to do something every 5 years or so.....
I don't know the correct terminology so I'll try to describe it.
Wires come up from the floor into a big black fuse. Theres no switch on this fuse.
This then goes into the electric meter.
After the meter it goes 3 ways:
1. A small fuse box for wall sockets.
2. A larger fuse box for lighting, garage, alarm.
3. A very old switch that feeds the boiler.
Number 3 is very old and needs changing.
mjsmke - I'd post a picture! I don't think you've answered the question about whether your fuse box is actually a fuse box (with fuse wire) or a consumer unit with lots of little switches. Lay people tend to interchange both.
Also, just the clear "the boiler" - are we talking about a gas central heating system or do you mean an immersion heater (my parents still refer to electric hot water heater as "a boiler" and I suspect a lot of that generation does). That may be important for the correct circuit (which might be why its been bodged like this). Like IHN says a lot of people will want to rip it all out and give you one nice consumer unit.
a fuse box (with fuse wire) or a consumer unit with lots of little switches.
It's a box with pull out fuses.
are we talking about a gas central heating system or do you mean an immersion heater
Gas central heating system.
It’s a box with pull out fuses.
Any spark you'd trust is likely to want to rip that out at this stage and replace with a new consumer unit and rewire.
Your current boiler likely post dates that fuse board and has been put on an isolator to avoid bringing the fuse board and connected stuff up to standard or it simply doesn't have space for the connection of the boiler and, fitting a bigger one would mean bringing up to standard.
Taking out the current isolator from your description will require the meter to be turned off. A practicing electrician will be along to confirm or correct in a moment but, iirc, they're not supposed to turn off that big black box without approval.
That isolator is going to be a costly job to replace.
How old is your house?
It’s a box with pull out fuses.
Replace it with a modern consumer unit.
I had a similar situation a few years ago, just got a electrician to replace the old fuse box with a RCB/MCB type unit.
I didn't need a full re-wire.
Taking out the current isolator from your description will require the meter to be turned off. A practicing electrician will be along to confirm or correct in a moment but, iirc, they’re not supposed to turn off that big black box without approval.
I just snipped the seals, pulled the fuse, rewired the consumer unit / tidied the board up and then resealed it with some lead seals bought off ebay. first thing I did was add an isolation switch after the meter, so I could just switch the tails off before the consumer unit for when I next want to work on something.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/7514/15774932788_64752b1c38_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/7514/15774932788_64752b1c38_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/q2YDVN ]100A Supply Fuse[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
Your current boiler likely post dates that fuse board
Boiler was new this year.
I just snipped the seals, pulled the fuse, rewired the consumer unit
Well yes. However what I might do, in the privacy of my own home, and what a qualified electrician is supposed to do in a customer's home are not necessarily the same.
Do electricians work on live tails?
When we did some work with Norweb, I was surprised to see that they worked on the LV side on the substation live and didn't switch it off. Just dug up the 415v 3 phase cable, stuck a rubber mat underneath it, put some rubber gloves on and cut into it live, add the joint (or whatever) and then resealed it. Each phase was on a 600 Amp fuse, so would have been a big old band if they'd shorted something out!
Did used to have some photos of it all somewhere...
They still stroke cables to see if they're live too.
Doubtless fewer of them now...
Do electricians work on live tails?
Not sane ones - the guys working for the network operator are very different to your domestic electrician. Even most checking/fault finding should be done with the power off using resistance type measurements where possible.
Long time since I did electrical work but most people would just cut the seals off the main fuse* and pull it out. You're supposed to notify the network operator for them to re-seal it, in the old days they might have fitted an isolator for you, these days??? Apart from fitting a smart meter I'd be surprised if they were interested.
*I wouldnt touch the seals on the meter end of the tails
The incoming fuse will be in the order of 60-100A. If I'm reading this right and you take the intermediate switch out chances are that you'll feed the full load to the fused spur, which will be awkward when you need to do something there (not to mention dangerous)and you'll also need cable capable of 60-100A all the way upstairs.
The old switch should be replaced with a small Amperage mcb (and switch) so that you can isolate the upstairs spur, not to mention that you get into regs, possibly RCD, etc. etc.
An entire RCD consumer unit is around £100 (last time I looked) £500?? proper job, circuits tested, etc.
When we did some work with Norweb, I was surprised to see that they worked on the LV side on the substation live and didn’t switch it off. Just dug up the 415v 3 phase cable, stuck a rubber mat underneath it, put some rubber gloves on and cut into it live, add the joint (or whatever) and then resealed it. Each phase was on a 600 Amp fuse, so would have been a big old band if they’d shorted something out!
I know a guy who works for the dno and a few years ago did his high voltage ticket, he was say low voltage side it's. You say with insulated tools, on the HV side because you work on one phase at a time and size of everything most of the time it's about bringing yourself up to the same potential as the supply you are working on. Pretty scary the first few times but all these things are super planned and I think he said you always have a spotter so to speak to remind you check what is going on at all time so there are two brain on the job. No second chance with that game.
It’s a box with pull out fuses.
😱
Don’t get any further bodges. Get a modern consumer unit (CU) with MCBs and an RCD. Make sure that your electrician discusses with you the merits of some things not being connected via the RCD. The freezer for example. Or the garage if it has a separate CU and RCD.
You may need your incoming fuse upgraded by your network operator. Your CU might have a higher rating if your incoming fuse is only 60A.
Having a 100A isolator after the supply fuse is a handy thing but not necessary if you have a CU with a master isolator. We now have a post-fuse isolator following our solar/Powerwall installation. All the new stuff gives the cellar more of an industrial vibe.
Here’s hoping your cabling is adequate otherwise it could turn out pricy and messy.
I’m a reasonably senior engineering manager with a DNO, I’ve been LV authorised and worked live at 230/400V. These days I look after a bunch folk designing electrical connections, including some for houses - not many that small to be honest though.
These threads scare me. Get yourself a reputable domestic electrician, take their advice, and pay them to sort out your house.
I think the electricians on here earlier have said much the same.
Definitely sounds like a new consumer unit is required, ours cost £500 fitted with notifications. I was a bit grumpy it took the guy half a day and when I looked up the unit itself tp it cost around £150. Anyway it needed doing and safety testing. I’d not be screwing around with the incoming supply, however I’m quite happy with adjusting existing circuits, now they’ve been tested and I know they are safe.
Domestic electrics follow pretty standard patterns so easy to do, as long as you know you are working from a safe baseline.
I was a bit grumpy it took the guy half a day and when I looked up the unit itself tp it cost around £150
only £350 for the labor and assurance that a suitably-qualified professional had done the work? Sounds OK to me.
Make sure that your electrician discusses with you the merits of some things not being connected via the RCD. The freezer for example. Or the garage if it has a separate CU and RCD.
For socket outlets (and lighting) now, you have no choice, they have to be RCD protected on a new or upgraded circuit. There are ways around it, e.g. fit a fused connector unit to supply one item, but, thats just not done in the real world, and anyone who does it,and supplies a Certificate confirming what they hvve done is leaving themselves open to being prosecuted.
Part P of the Building Regs was brought in to stop Electricians leaving installations unsafe.It would be very hard to argue for the omission of a RCD in a domestic dwelling, when it has been part of the Wiring Regulations for 10+ years.
only £350 for the labor and assurance that a suitably-qualified professional had done the work? Sounds OK to me.
He's gonna be even grumpier when he finds out the electrician probably didn't even pay 150 quid.....
But it's experience and qualifications your paying for rather than material things.
350 for half a days work is alot whatever way you lookat it.
sparks do not normally charge £700 a day, but for some reason consumer unit replacements seem to have an extra "tax" applied.
its also not very hard to do, despite what some will tell you. bit like being bent over to have a gas meter moved, or gey the council to install a drop curb. all stuff you aren't allowed to do yourself so you get ripped off
But its not half a days work. Its half a day on site plus the time to get the stuff, presumably a visit to do an estimate etc etc.
Self employed tradesmen are doing well if half the hours they work are chargeable
Its pricey tho thats for sure - I paid £300 to have my consumer unit changed
350 for half a days work is alot whatever way you lookat it.
Get someone cheaper to do it ?
The customer can hunt around for quotes.
You don't just change the consumer unit, you visit, identify problems before you start that would prevent you switching the new installation on, you quote. Practically it may just be a quote over the phone, but that's life and the customer can always choose someone else.
You buy parts, sometimes you move it completely so that the customer can reach it.
You drive, use tools that you've bought and pay to have calibrated and then certify every circuit that comes off your installation, which is why people end up with three small fuse boxes from different centuries 🙂
There are testing shortcuts too, £££ quoted but less work completed
its also not very hard to do, despite what some will tell you.
Probably one of the easiest jobs, all on one place, doesn't involve lifting floorboards / chasing runs in walls and replastering etc. A full re-wire is 90% chasing walls / making good and 10% (or less) actual wiring....
footflaps
Full Member
its also not very hard to do, despite what some will tell you.Probably one of the easiest jobs, all on one place, doesn’t involve lifting floorboards / chasing runs in walls and replastering etc. A full re-wire is 90% chasing walls / making good and 10% (or less) actual wiring
its really easy right up till its not - when your now liable for which ever by miracle bodge the previous owner(s) have done that has worked right up till you fire a new RCD on or you cant achieve a test on a circuit post replacement and your on a lovely little fault finding mission + your half day is now 2 days.... by the way it was working fine before you touched it mate.