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So this crazy lot in power seem to have a thing about banning diesel and petrol cars in the near future and we all drive electric vehicles, to support this theyre wanting to increase the number of charge points.
1, is the power grid capable of supplying so much power, eg generators and supply cables, to homes, car parks etc.
2, Locally lots of terraced homes and flats/apartments, so where are the chargers going to be placed.
3, on the above for street charging, who has priority, can see people hogging the space outside their home for parking and not charging their car.
4, I visit quite a few homes a week to work, and occasionally get told dont park there its my space etc,now its going to be i need to charge my car etc.
Discuss
For number 1
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted
We will have to plug them into lampposts and make sure no one trips over the cable, or unplugs them for a laugh.
Ignore the fact it's Chris Harris of Top Gear and EVO fame (if such things are not to your taste). The chap from the grid answers all these questions, it's a really good interview/Q&A
National Grid capacity aside, there is going to have to be major work on the strategy and upgrade of the current charging infrastructure. There doesn’t appear to be a coherent current strategy apart from token chargers in new developments and car parks. So it’s a patchy shambles now in many places even if you own a Tesla with their own infrastructure (my nearest supercharger would be an hour away if I had a Tesla). I can see many people will have to take their car to a charger as charging from home will be impossible and unnecessary for the average weekly mileage which means having adequate capacity, reliability and cost. We will soon be reaching the tipping point for the cost being the same an ICE car and road rage will rapidly be joined by charge rage if it doesn’t get sorted pretty quickly. Don’t hold your breath with this Govt.
Wireless charging built into the road - https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/what-is-electric-car-wireless-charging-wevc-and-how-does-it-work-/
Rig it up so the car records what it consumes and you get charged accordingly.
If this is daily mail where's the bikini clad sidebar of shame gone?????
1. The capacity is already there.
2. People in terraces without off road parking will struggle but there's already public charging infrastructure, not enough but it will increase with more EV ownership. I'm guessing people without off road parking won't be in the early adopter groups for practical and financial reasons anyway.
3. There's ways of enforcing this with ANPR etc., just needs legislation tweaks. I can't see this public infrastructure being installed in residential streets anyway..
4.Meh. people using the public highway to store their vehicle and being territorial about it has been going on for years. It needs addressing anyway.
Fast charging infrastructure is also on it's way, the first EV 'petrol' stations are being planned now, for many people as this infrastructure increases and battery life improves I can see them fueling their car pretty much as they do now. The biggest issue will be charging a car at home, off peak overnight will be substantially cheaper than charging it in 10 minutes at a filling station. Those unable to charge at home will pay the cost.
I imagine there were similar issues when ICE vehicles were introduced 120 years ago, limited refining capacity and the nearest filling station being miles away. It got sorted and the answer wasn't petrol deliveries to your door.
https://youtube.com/c/PlugLifeTelevision
Euan is a battery scientist that makes information videos about EVs that are based on real, traceable information. Interesting watching whatever side of the fence you are on.
Our EV does 250 miles on a charge. I drive it part way to work 3-4 times then run or cycle the rest as there is no parking near work. After a week of this I either take it to my local slow charger that is walking distance from the house, then pick it up just before bed, or leave it on a rapid for 45 mins while I go for a walk. We do not have a home charger, but there is scope for some bollards in our street to be converted in future.
Destination charge stations will play a big part in the future of EVs, and are starting to pop up already. Fancy a nice walk in Stirling? Head to the new solar powered mega charge station with space for about 50 cars, whap it in and head off for some outside time.
The cables lock in place until they are done.
Our fast chargers are all at Stephens the bakery's, so you can get a pie and a charge if sports isn't your thing 🤣
current strategy
Very good 😀
Roads will get wireless charging thus you will be able to park anywhere and charge.
PLUS you will be able to sell your charge back to the grid. Basically every electric car will be a battery you can charge when its cheap and sell when its expensive. You will be able to buy different contracts (peak charger, off peak charger etc)
Big Data will crunch all the numbers and will Direct Debit out what you owe each month.
Brave new world!
The capacity may be there, but not when most people would like to see it charging.
Those of you that work in large electricity using industry's will already know of the TRIAD season beginning of November till the end of February, its an utter ball ache, having to shut down anytime between 4-7 pm as there is very little overhead left.
And before anyone moans about not being able to charge at that time consider we usually pay 14p per unit from 4-7pm but during a Triad its over £50 a unit!
How does having enough electricity capacity match with spiking prices due to shortages? And this is before mass EV use.
The charging for the roughly third of car-owning households who don't have off-street parking will be a bit of a mix depending on need.
I go with the idea that if you own a car you use it to go to places, so it makes sense to have charging where people go in their cars. Workplaces, supermarkets, gyms, shopping centres, etc. Average mileage is about 8000pa so in a 300 mile range car that's once a fortnight - car fills up while you do something else for a while.
Beyond that there's a definite need for public charging near homes - that can be streetside/lamppost style (like Ubitricity, which just got acquired by Shell so hopefully has bigger expansion plans), or rapid chargers dotted about. There's a rapid charger just popped up near me that is within a couple of minutes walk of dozens of terraced houses - so if you live there and have an EV it's a case of sticking it on to charge for an hour at some point then pick it up and park again. Someone else is on it? Just try later, they'll be gone soon (parking bay is an hour max, and the charger has overstay fees).
Remember too 2030 is a decade away - and that's just for *new* car sales. Average car lasts 14 years and that keeps rising - people who have a real need for a combustion-engined car will be able to keep using one, albeit at a price (and probably with a hybrid powertrain). Think how it was 10 years ago - you couldn't even buy a Leaf yet, it was a G-Whiz or a i-Miev (or a £100k+ sports car from this niche little company called Tesla). There weren't even any rapid chargers anywhere yet. EVs have come an awfully long way in this decade just gone, and will keep on getting better in the next one.
HoratioHufnagel
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted
I'm not saying he's wrong but it's really surprising that all the vehicles in the UK switching to electric would only add 10% to the total electricity used.
And before anyone moans about not being able to charge at that time consider we usually pay 14p per unit from 4-7pm but during a Triad its over £50 a unit!
Ouch, when your plant is a Megawatt or greater user!
Roads will get wireless charging
Call me pessimistic but I can't see that happening overnight. I'd probably err on the side of that being a pipedream.
I did consider this a few years ago; how houses with offroad parking may command a premium vis a vis street parking only.
Sandwich
Full MemberAnd before anyone moans about not being able to charge at that time consider we usually pay 14p per unit from 4-7pm but during a Triad its over £50 a unit!
Ouch, when your plant is a Megawatt or greater user!
1.3MW now was 1.8MW 3 years ago but we have done a lot of work on energy efficiency, we are now one of if not the lowest Kw/Tonne commercial flour mills in the world.
I doubt wireless charging is a good idea, isn't it wildly inefficent?
I think battery tech improvements + most people's daily journeys being pretty short means lack of charging outside isn't a barrier for most people. Pre-Covid I only averaged 100 miles driving a week, once 400-500 mile range batteries are the norm + public fast charging infrastructure exists then having to take you car somewhere once or twice a month for an hour or so to charge up isn't a big deal (especially if the charging location is also your local supermarket or similar). Add to that work place/railway station charging etc. and I expect the numbers it's unworkable for (travelling salesmen/support engineers etc. covering hundreds of miles a day with only patching charging availability at their destination) are pretty small
Wireless charging is a nice idea but years off being commercially viable and then there's question of will the government invest the billions in it anyway. I can't see private companies being able to afford to deploy it given it will take years to recoup that investment.
And before anyone moans about not being able to charge at that time consider we usually pay 14p per unit from 4-7pm but during a Triad its over £50 a unit!
Ouch, when your plant is a Megawatt or greater user!
But it's bloody brilliant when your plant GENERATES 1300 of them. 😁
WorldClassAccident
Wireless charging built into the road – https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/what-is-electric-car-wireless-charging-wevc-and-how-does-it-work-/
Rig it up so the car records what it consumes and you get charged accordingly.
and
db
Roads will get wireless charging thus you will be able to park anywhere and charge.
Simply never going to happen - as a country we can't keep up with the cost of maintaining the existing road network. Roads with wireless charging would be at least an order of magnitude higher in cost.
1. The main people at National Grid (Graeme Cooper Project Director/ Marcus Stewart Head of Energy insights) have been saying for a few years that the National Grid will cope, but some local DNO infrastructure will need upgrading. I've quoted them a few times on here to the ney sayers and you just get "well they're paid say that aren't they?". So with some people you'll never convince them whatever.
However, National Grid have said the big issue will be when we try to phase out Gas central heating.
2. Everyone has their theory of how it will develop (mine is that we'll start to see an acceleration in petrol stations transitioning and catering for people stopping for 40mins rather than 10mins). One thing is for certain we have 9 years till 2030. 9years ago there were 2800 public chargers in the UK, today there are 37496 and it's only going to accelerate even faster. 18 months ago there were 0 zero rapid chargers on my 15 mile commute to work, now today there are 11.
3 and 4. Not quite sure what your point is, I think you're just assuming the infrastructure will only go in one direction (on street / lamppost charging). I;m assuming there will be lots of options for people. I'm also assuming that battery tech will improve and charging speeds will increase, to a point where charging your car will be not far off what we do now at petrol stations, maybe the time it takes to order and drink a coffee.
We will soon be reaching the tipping point for the cost being the same an ICE car
Well something will have to replace fuel duty.
Some good stats at https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/#points
Currently 13,726 public charging points in the UK and growing pretty steadily.
I've mentioned this before but we charge for FREE on a council-run charger at a public car park that is only a couple of hundred meters from our house. (We do have a drive, so we can charge at home, but why would we?)
I’m not saying he’s wrong but it’s really surprising that all the vehicles in the UK switching to electric would only add 10% to the total electricity used.
He does appear to be wrong with my schoolboy maths.
32 million cars each needing around 2 megawatt per year...or 40kw per week. (1kw to 4 miles give or take and an average of 8k miles a year) equals 64 terawatt per year...or around 20% of current total use. (320 terawatt in 2019)
Sort of OK if it is spread over the full 24/7, but it wouldn't be.
Couple this with the push for ASHP or similar to heat new homes....all use electricity. Also add in the fact that several (around half) of our nuclear power plants due to retire within 5 years and by 2030...we will have 2 operating.......
Today...as in now, would be great if we had 4 x the wind energy production as that alone would give us all we need, but when they spout off about how x% of annual energy is renewable they fail to tell the full story, that on a cold miserable winters day, demand is up and quite often renewables wouldn't give us 50% of what we need....without more power hungry heating systems and EVs.
32 million cars each needing around 2 megawatt per year…or 40kw per week. (1kw to 4 miles give or take and an average of 8k miles a year) equals 64 terawatt per year…or around 20% of current total use. (320 terawatt in 2019)
In 2019 about 103 TWh was used by domestic consumers so adding another ~64 TWh is a significant bump.
IIRC you also lose almost 50% through transmission/distribution losses so you have to add to the generation side respectively.
I agree on wireless charging on public roads, other than in certain user cases ie taxi ranks etc it's complete cobblers. I can maybe see the tech being used at large distribution depots so that van drivers don't have to be relied upon to plug their van in every night.
Same with battery swapping, maybe certain user cases, but generally just a red herring IMO
fast partial charging will make most of this pretty much a non-issue. Tesla can apparently do 70 miles in 5 minutes right now - in 10 years lets say that doubles - as long as you can pop into your local supermarket once a week for 15 mins (>400 miles!), I think most use-cases are solved. Obviously there are a few jobs that won't work for, but the majority of use is met by that pattern
Wireless charging is really inefficient. I was thinking of charging my phone, from my bicycle dynamo hub, using wireless charging so as not to expose any connectors to the elements. Most of the energy is lost to heat. So, you have to question where would the extra capacity come from in order to provide the energy required to overcome those losses.
Far more efficient to have a direct connection.
wireless charging in roads wont happen in most places. maybe in new build estates only. the costs of practially installing/retrofitting this in existing public roads would be astronomical.
the lamp post thig is most effective. the have them on my BIL`s road in London. great stuff.
Why isn't it law for new developments to have a charging point for every car parking space. My company is in the process of building 100's & 100's of new flats in Manchester. But the extensive 3 story underground car park only has about 40 charging points? I bet the other million developments are the same. Each parking bay costs £20,000, I don't know if it more for one with a charging point.
Maybe we just have to stop driving so much and owning so many cars.
Nail on head HH.
I can’t believe this hasn’t been several times already on here but luckily B.A.Nana had kept notes just in case it got asked, again... for the umpteenth time.
As an aside, I take a weekly trip to Sheffield at the minute, M18, M1, Parkway etc. As I turn off the M1 there are signs reducing the speed limit to 60 to improve air quality. If I have an EV an I exempt?
So this crazy lot in power seem to have a thing about banning diesel and petrol cars in the near future
Any lot in power would be doing exactly the same thing. Can you think of anytime in your life when it wasn't apparent that burning fossil fuel wasn't a bad idea? Why we've thought its a bad idea changes over time - we used to be less selflessly worried about the damage to the environment and more selfishly worried about the fuel just running out. All thats different now is we have to means to make batteries and motors that are an effective substitute for combustion engines.
2, Locally lots of terraced homes and flats/apartments, so where are the chargers going to be placed.
Most people drive to work in the same place and park there for the same amount of time five days a week every week. Your house isn't the only place where you might charge your car regularly.
Wireless charging is really inefficient.....Most of the energy is lost to heat.
Only about 20%-30% of the energy in a gallon of petrol actually translates into power at the wheels rather than energy lost as heat and noise etc
Some interesting answers, but what happens if a major generator goes bang, or a cold snap in all those electric homes at the same time, and not forgetting most new railway rolling stock locps and emus are now electric, as well as a lot of buses boris wants to be electric, all recharging overnight.
Some interesting answers, but what happens if a major generator goes bang, or a cold snap in all those electric homes at the same time,
You're old enough to remember when OPEC just deciding not to sell anyone any oil in the 1970s, and the Iranian revolution a few years later having much the same effect. Industrialised nations like ours have been investing billions in developing ways of not being reliant on oil (especially other people's oil) since then.
But even our own oil production isn't immune from outside interference. The UK oil industry got humped as side effect OPEC's efforts to undermine the USA's efforts to make itself self sufficient for oil by dropping its prices to make the US's homegrown production uneconomical.
Most people drive to work in the same place and park there for the same amount of time five days a week every week. Your house isn’t the only place where you might charge your car regularly.
But the issue here is that the owners of the cars would expect to be able to charge during the peak times for electricity usage...it needs a system where the load is spread more evenly.
Can you imagine many people finding a charging point a few streets away for a fast charge, and then bothering to go back an hour later in the dark/rain/snow/glorious sunshine/after a beer) to take it back round to their house and thus freeing it up? People cruising round all night trying to find a charging space?
Obviously they won't as the guy who has the house beside the charger will obviously park his car there anyway 'cos the pavement outside his house is his property innit.
all those electric homes at the same time, and not forgetting most new railway rolling stock locps and emus are now electric,
That’s a very good point as it happens here now and then with a dodgy electric exchange, happened just before I switched to full EV. It meant the 2 local petrol stations were closed for almost 12 hours. Fortunately as I has a hybrid we charged it up at home so my wife could get to work, recharge and use a fuel station.
While they were repairing another power line near me a few streets away they supplied a generator, it was not huge smaller than a little potting shed very quiet too but it powered around 150 houses.
Can you imagine many people finding a charging point a few streets away for a fast charge, and then bothering to go back an hour later
Yes, because that's literally what we do!
There are two spaces at the car park charger. We check if it is occupied on ZapMap, if it is free we pop the car on, then the phone app tells us when it has finished charging then we pop down and get it.
Can you imagine many people finding a charging point a few streets away for a fast charge, and then bothering to go back an hour later in the dark/rain/snow/glorious sunshine/after a beer) to take it back round to their house and thus freeing it up? People cruising round all night trying to find a charging space?
My German supplier, mobility+, now has a penalty system if you leave it on the charger when it's full. Necessary given the attitude of the owners of heavy metal hybrid beamers and Mercs in Berlin.
Parking places with charge points need to be the least attractive. Lidl Germany have twigged this, it's usually the longest walk to the store.
The people who buy EVs are the kind of people who take an interest in environmental issues. I avoid charging mine at peak consumption times and at any time it's really cold.
There are far better ways of improving sustainable transport than spaffing billions up the wall uprooting all the roads to install wireless charging. Imagine how many bike lanes we could build!
Can you imagine many people finding a charging point a few streets away for a fast charge, and then bothering to go back an hour later
Just back from picking ours up from the free charger, nice little walk in some fresh air to collect the car. Got home just as the wife was plating tea. Where’s the effort and hassle?
3k miles now it’s cost me nothing to charge. I filled the work Kodiaq up today £69 for 470 miles that’s about 3 chargers maybe a little more in my E-Tron pretty much identical cars, even on an expensive charger 39p locally that would be £45.
Fast charging will become part of the problem not part of the solution. And will be stunningly expensive.
Even Graeme Cooper privately admits they expect 85-95% of charging to take place at work or at home.
An EV takes about the same amount of power as a house. And about the same energy.
Slow charging done right is less time consuming than fast charging.
The best time to charge an EV is ivernight at the moment - but in 20 years time it’s likely to be early afternoon.
I can get EVs onto my distribution network relatively easily. Graeme knows nothing about distribution networks and really shouldn’t talk about them.
And will be stunningly expensive.
What's that in real numbers? You have a point, the fast chargers on the autobahns work out at about the same as buying petrol for the same distance. If you call that "stunningly expensive" I agree with you. But that's only for weekend/holiday use for most people.
An EV takes about the same amount of power as a house. And about the same energy.
Now this is not so. My car uses about 1300kWh of electricity a year for 10 000km including charging losses. My all electric house uses 1800kwh. The solar panels produce 3400kWh which covers both.
I'd be very surprised if anyone else on this thread has a combined gas and electricity consumption for 2-3 people of less than 5000kWh.
Yes, because that’s literally what we do!
Just back from picking ours up from the free charger, nice little walk in some fresh air to collect the car. Got home just as the wife was plating tea. Where’s the effort and hassle?
Mrs Poly has an EV coming in April. There is a (currently) free (22kW?) charging point about 200-300m from here. Looks like you can almost always get connected to it - I think there's 3 or 4 and rarely more than 1 occupied. I was planning to get a 7.5kW house charging point installed. Are you saying you wouldn't bother? I think she'll probably only need to charge completely once a week - but she is the type who would be happier if it was left "full" as much as possible.
Now this is not so. My car uses about 1300kWh of electricity a year for 10 000km including charging losses. My all electric house uses 1800kwh. The solar panels produce 3400kWh which covers both.
How do you store the solar-derived electricity? Or are you on some sort of feed-in-tarrif?
but she is the type who would be happier if it was left “full”
Keeping a batery full results in more rapid deterioration. I only charge mine over 90% if I'm doing a long journey immediately after charging.
I have a 3KW charger at home and a 22kW 200m up the road if I get home empty and need to go out again immediately (used three times in three and a half years IIRC). A 7.5kW charger would just put unnecessary load on the grid in my case, 3kW overnight covers nearly all my home charging needs.
Or are you on some sort of feed-in-tarrif?
This, in a region with lots of hydro the people best placed to balance consumption and store surplusses are EDF.
I had a home charger installed but so far used it just to check what voltage I’d get. Off peak it will cost me about £6 or so for a full charge. I’m very lucky with the 50Kw charger free on my doorstep but that could easily end tomorrow. We have a new charging Station being built now which will have 6 chargers, they won’t be free.
I’m happy to have the home charger for convenience if I needed it as a top up.
Why isn’t it law for new developments to have a charging point for every car parking space
Don’t know about Manchester, but it is a planning condition for most of the Local Authorities down here, that each house must have a charging point and for flats, one double charge point for every 10 bays (so 1 in 5 bays supplied).
I’m having a charger installed on Monday, at home, but I’ve gone PHEV for the minute, because I want to give the public charging infrastructure time to mature before I dive in to full EV.
Edukator - my apologies. I was referring to present electrical power and energy use in a house - typically around 10kWh per day with a diversified max demand of circa 1.5-2kW, and typically not including heating today. That’s in line with using a 7kW charger at home and in the UK the average mileage leads to around 8-10kWh per day in UK conditions.
Now that is averaged across populations and will be very different for individuals - I commend you on your low usage by the way, but averages may be different in France anyway for a variety of reasons, I don’t know.
Fast charging has its place on long journeys but general use (ie using fast charging like a substitute petrol station) will tend to concentrate demand at key times - not a problem today but as EV penetration grows it will lead to a need for significantly more generation and/or fixed storage facilities being installed, plus the network to serve them. Because of the way the UK pays for its networks that’s not really a financial issue for the network companies, but it is a logistical issue.
If it helps I’m involved in putting the investment plans together for a network company with particular emphasis on decarbonisation, innovation and whole systems approaches. Happy to argue the toss, chew the fat etc, but I’m doing it with my thumb on a mobile which is getting to be a drag. PM me a phone number and I’m happy to gas - in a low carbon way of course.
PS - Edukator, the way you describe your setup sounds spot on and I doubt I could go it better. That said I’m busily trying to get everybody else on to low carbon vehicles, while driving a diesel myself. In my defence, I did about 3000 miles last year - the 29 miles into the office was almost exclusively on a gravel bike with panniers for my laptop and clothes.
PPS - was it a Zoe you have? 7.7km/kWh is impressive. In the UK the figures for the Zoe are suggesting one might expect 5.6km/kWh, which would bring the EV back to 1787kWh against your home at 1800kWh (or rough equivalence - though I accept your home is also not in the UK which might change things).
Still, nice driving. Like I said people aren’t average and you're getting good figures.
@poly:
I was planning to get a 7.5kW house charging point installed. Are you saying you wouldn’t bother?
We haven't bothered with a home charging point yet. We probably will at some point but it's not a priority due to the convenience of having a local public charger.
We've only had the car for a few months but we've only charged at home once (using the plug-in slow charger) and that was because the public charger was being repaired.
One non-obvious advantage of a home-charger is that you can set the car to defrost and warm up at a set time in the morning (or on demand via the app) which is a really nice feature in winter, but obviously makes a lot more sense if it is plugged in instead of draining the battery to do this.
One non-obvious advantage of a home-charger is that you can set the car to defrost and warm up at a set time in the morning (or on demand via the app) which is a really nice feature in winter, but obviously makes a lot more sense if it is plugged in instead of draining the battery to do this.
Right - you’ve sold me - I’ve usually just gone back to sleep when she starts scraping it outside the bedroom window and wakes me up!
I mean we do it anyway just on the battery, because who doesn't like getting into a nice warm, defrosted car with heated seats and steering wheel, but it makes a lot more sense if it's plugged in.
What's your car GrahamS out of interest?
A week ago I became an EV owner. Just bought a little electric Kangoo for my business. Very impressed so far.
It's a pretty ideal situation in terms of charging because the daily mileage is low and it's always parked in the same place. Even on a 3 pin plug we've got plenty of time to charge it when not in use.
Bristol is supposedly introducing an emissions charge for the city centre (possibly next year) so we'll be ready for that. I hope a lot of businesses like ours will follow suit as I expect it'll be way more economical,
I quite fancy an EV for home use but haven't seen the right car for us yet. Charging at home would not really be possible but in a busy city we'll have other options.
Where you have to pay to charge up, how does the cost compare to charging at home?
8-10kWh per day
Average mileage in the UK in 2019 was 7400 miles or about 12000km according to the first Google result. If you use 10kWh a day that's 3650 kWh. So a simple division gives 30.4kWh per 100km. That's about double what I consume with Zoé even on the worst jouneys I do, up and down to a ski resort in Winter and allowing for charging losses.
The display on the Zoé currently says 11.9kWh/100km, add about 15% for charging losses and I'm still at less than half the consumption you base your calculations on.
All EVs are not equal but those that sell best are remarkably economical. I suggest 10kWh per day is an overestimate.
I agree there's not much point in chaging your diesel prematurely at that annual mileage, the embedded energy in a new car would make a change counter productive in terms of CO2. However in terms of health of the population EVs eliminate the major source of air pollution in European cities. Early deaths from air pollution are about 3.4 million a year worldwide, compared with 2.2 million for the whole Covid period to date. And that's just deaths, how many people (like me) can't live in large urban areas or suffer every day due to air pollution. The only winners are the pharma companies selling inhalers.
Well I’ve learnt something. Mileage per car is lower than I thought. Flip side is that there are more 2+ car households than there used to be. Interesting and needs thinking about numbers wise. Remember as a power engineer I’m interested in the cumulative effect not the individual, but either on your figures or mine I’m not that worried about EVs.
In terms of emissions, on NOx and CO2 I agree entirely - beware on particulate. What percentage of particulate emissions of a modern diesel do EVs have? I’ve seen 40-60% bandied about. This mainly is brake dust and tyre wear and these tend to be worse in heavier cars. So while EVs are a step in the right direction they aren’t a complete solution to air quality.
I’m still generally in favour though. When an EV becomes available that takes 4 people and 4 bikes (occasionally plus luggage, but on a weekly basis just the people and bikes) with a good range, I’m interested. Price will still be an issue though.
As an aside, hydrogen hybrids (yes I know they’re all really hybrids) with a day-to-day EV capability and a long distance fuel cell capability are starting to be mentioned in decarbonisation and EST discussions. We’ll see.
(Still impressed by your km/kWh - that’s off the scale compared to the road test data for the Zoe in the UK. Not questioning your experience, just impressed)
but what happens if a major generator goes bang, or a cold snap in all those electric homes at the same time, and not forgetting most new railway rolling stock locps and emus are now electric, as well as a lot of buses boris wants to be electric, all recharging overnight.
There's a good example of it going on right now. It's been regularly cold for quite a few weeks, it's been unseasonably unwindy for quite some time, so wind generation has fallen, Calon Energy has closed a turbine, Hinkley B and Dougeness have 2.2Gwt turned off, Haysham 1 has been off line since September, the line between the UK and the Netherlands is massively reduced for unplanned maintenance. The result is that the wholesale prices have gone sky high, anyone on Agile Octopus or Tracker V1 leccy tariffs will have experienced the results in real time first hand. And that's your answer to a generator going bang in the future I would imagine. The base load will just be on a bigger scale.
You can do all the what-if-ery you want about EV's , pretty soon you'll have to do something as economics will drive it. Currently the cost of buying new is held up as an obstacle, but you get it back on very reduced running costs. Given the drop in battery costs (Leaf batteries have dropped 83% over 10 years and <100$ per kW/hr is out there) new EVæs are going to cost less than an ICE car, and then have the reduced running costs on top. So if you can't afford a house with charging at home for conveniance, tough luck , you're forced to carry the significant extra cost of an ICE car as a 'poverty tax'. That won't be very popular.
If you want to get rich, get into EV charging as an industry.
Hydrogen hybrids are very difficult when reality comes into the picture. Much more difficult to engineer that ICE cars. As an ICE owner the inconvenience, expensive engineering in the car and horrible amount of cash required to build infrastructure makes it look regressive
This mainly is brake dust
So long as it's not freezing, the gradient is less than 10% and you don't have a full battery it's quite possible to drive a Zoé without ever using the service brakes above 10km/h. With a bit of anticipation the only times I use the brakes are stop signs and traffic lights that change when I'm close to them. Our first Zoé was traded in with as new original brake pads at about 20 000km.
Tyre wear on the EV specific tyres on our first Zoé was rapid, fronts 2/3 worn at 20 000km, but they've put different tyres on the latest ones which are wearing very well. If you look at the front tyres on Zoés they are often in tatters as flooring the thottle on take off gives the tyres a hard time, I don't.
In terms of emissions, on NOx and CO2 I agree entirely – beware on particulate. What percentage of particulate emissions of a modern diesel do EVs have? I’ve seen 40-60% bandied about. This mainly is brake dust and tyre wear and these tend to be worse in heavier cars. So while EVs are a step in the right direction they aren’t a complete solution to air quality.
I've hardly touched my brakes in 12 months, sometimes i only touch them because I'm worried about them seizing up thru lack of use 😉 . Also tyre wear is surely something for the tyre manufactures to be brought to account on, nothing to do with EV vs Diesel IMO?
Don’t disagree with either of Edukator or B.A.Nana’s comments, save that vehicle weight will affect braking and tyre life so keeping weights low will be important.
For what’s worth, I’m generally proEV and enjoyed driving them when I’ve had the chance.
As pointed out a good EV will use engine regeneration more then the brakes, despite their weight they’ll produce less. They’re not 100% green but they’re better than the current options.
The IET and Birmingham Uni aren’t quite so clear on that Drac.
I don’t have strong opinions myself.
I agree they are an improvement on the status quo.
I’m worried about them seizing up thru lack of use
Provided they aren’t Avid Juicys you’ll be OK😉
@petefromearth:
What’s your car GrahamS out of interest?
It's a Nissan Leaf Tekna (on a ludicrously cheap salary-sacrifice tax-free lease scheme 😁).
We like it a lot - but we'll be going for the extended range e+ version next time.
Standard range version is 40KwH (~160 miles), extended is 62KwH (~227 miles).
Cold weather drops those ranges significantly due to battery efficiency and having the heaters on.
It's an every day commuting vehicle for us. We still have a big diesel C-Max Grand for longer journeys.
Audi are pretty clear on it.
Linked the wrong one. This one.
And agreeing with the previous comments, the Leaf is driven as a single-pedal vehicle.
There is a brake pedal, but I consider it a personal failure if I have to use it.
Interesting that the learned bodies, universities and I see OECD now are saying something, that a car supplier and your own experience doesn’t tally with.
What am I missing? I can see Audi might have a vested interest, less so the IET and universities, but I am quite willing to accept your experiences. Are you driving through typical stop start traffic? If so even stranger.
You need to also consider how new technologies like autonomy will combine.
Your car could go off and charge itself.
If your car can drive to you do you need it park on your drive or even on your street? That's one of the ways you could solve the issues with EVs in areas with no off-street parking
Imagine designing housing estates with no traditional roads. EVs huddle together a small distance away and are summoned as you need them.
Interesting that the learned bodies, universities and I see OECD now are saying something, that a car supplier and your own experience doesn’t tally with.
Any link to this the only one I found they said the opposite?
Yes - let me see if I can find it.
A few here. Some older, some newer, some more or less straightforwardly vested. Read with appropriate pinches of salt.
Google “ev particulate emissions” - I can’t copy the link on a phone.
Are you driving through typical stop start traffic? If so even stranger.
Ah, something I hadn't considered TBH. As GrahamS says, it's a personal failure if you have to use the brake, however in stop start traffic and many other circumstances you probably engage autopilot or equiv and let the car take over, I've no idea whether or when the car is regen braking or pedal braking.
There may also be a learning issue. Some folk might just be better at anticipating issues and adapting to regen braking, while others might brake harder and later. (There’s a Hope vs Shimano thread on this somewhere 😉)
Edukator for example does seem to be thinking ahead even in the way he is describing his car journey. And the very high km/kWh does suggest more regen less friction braking than people are getting in UK magazine tests of the Zoe - over 11 vs less than 6.
By the end of the decade charging will be managed by aggregators balancing the need of the local networks with the generation on the system and the needs of drivers. Smart charging. Already seeing this in parts of NL. You will be rewarded for off peak charging
Not sure anyone has nailed on street yet, needs to be some kind of plug and charge solution for residents and probably some hefty policy intervention to enable infrastructure roll out and ease of use for residents
How will the likes of utilities and telecoms charge their van and equipment on the go. If all home chargers were ISO15118 compliant we could let these workers charge at our homes and get the cash back