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cant fathom why updating the vehicle classification isnt a high priority for the government.
Such an easy win to facilitate sensible, modern mass transit.
Legalise e scoothers, and in the process set out a frame work as to where they can and cant be used, and how they should behave.
Enable the Citroen Ami to be used as designed.
CBT, and a smidge of insurance and she could get an electric moped? I think this is where things should be going myself. Single rider, twist and go, a box to put your shopping in.
https://urbanebikes.com/collections/electric-mopeds/products/niu-m-plus-electric-scooter
cant fathom why updating the vehicle classification isnt a high priority for the government.
I suspect it's as simple as the scooter companies haven't donanted enough to the Tory party for it to become a priority.
cant fathom why updating the vehicle classification isnt a high priority for the government.
Such an easy win to facilitate sensible, modern mass transit.
I’d say it’s quite simple to me! Vested interests want to make sure they profit from it - VCs who own scooter rental firms, insurers, car manufacturers (plus taxi firms, Uber etc), petrol suppliers etc.
Can't remember where I read it (FT or Economist probably) but the initial results from the offical trial schemes aren't that promising. Turns out most people using them and young people substituting walking / cycling and public transport for escooters. The overall carbon footprint has actually gone up as the scooter batteries are carbon intensive. They have agreed to extend the trial period as a result of the Pandemic getting in the way, but they're not a 'green' alternative.
All the people with cars are still using cars to get from A to B and the whole 'green' premis of escooters is that they would substitute car journeys. So far, very little evidence of that.
All the people with cars are still using cars to get from A to B and the whole ‘green’ premis of escooters is that they would substitute car journeys. So far, very little evidence of that.
This is my intuition about them as well, but they may become an appealing alternative to getting a car in the first place for younger people.
And there's probably potential for replacing the car leg of mixed commutes. Though less people are commuting now anyway.
The jury's definitely still out, but it's strange how many people post about "they're all a bloody menace" without realising they sound exactly like anti-cycling gammons.
this as ever needs both the carrot and stick. to make alternatives to cars more attractive the cost of driving needs to be increased ( and use that tax to subsidise alternatives) and the convenience of car driving reduced
What's the average commute these days? In my mind, these scooters would work for a 2-3 mile commute as a faster alternative to walking (as the OP wants). I don't imagine many people actually walk 3 miles each way to work, do they? I suppose there are also some people who might 'park and ride' a scooter into town from 1-2 miles out.
For longer journeys (3+ miles I guess) bikes or eBikes make more sense to me.
to make alternatives to cars more attractive the cost of driving needs to be increased
The sort of journies you would use an escooter for (2 miles or less across town) are ones where you can never make driving too expensive, you just have to close the roads to cars completely in town centres.
In the Cambridge trial the scooters are limited to the town itself - don't think you can take then out, so the absolute max journey you could take is only a few miles and I suspect most are under 2 miles.
I have to say I'm surprised (kinda) by the hate shown to them on here. Less cars on the roads, easy transport and gets you exactly where you want, potentially unlike a bus. Surely would create more pressure to change the infrastructure balance away from cars too.
I see them pretty much every day on my drive to work (if I turn right instead of left!). While granted they are currently illegal, and its not a pavement but a shared use path thats used, but there are several that are ridden courteously everyday up the hill towards the hospital/business park with never a problem. People in shirts and ties with a brief case over a shoulder. I think that's why they are left alone generally, because they aren't causing issues and riding like morons. I really think this should be encouraged.
I really think this should be encouraged.
They're not going anywhere and each year Halfords sell 10,000s of them, so regardless of what anyone thinks we just need to integrate them as best as possible.
I know a couple of people that own them and staying in Newcastle at the moment where there's a trial.
The people that own them use them like you would a Brompton bike, something portable you can take on the train and into the office rather than locked up outside. Which will be scuppered if train companies follow the lead of TFL.
The trial ones are a bit useless for anything other than commuting from the station to an office as the area excludes any supermarkets, and isn't really big enough to make the time saved over walking seem worthwhile. If they had a bit more range, and were a bit more stable it'd be better. And they'd probably just be (electric) Borris Bikes.
Great alternative to a Brompton, but the other 99% are just a novelty toy.
They’re not going anywhere and each year Halfords sell 10,000s of them, so regardless of what anyone thinks we just need to integrate them as best as possible.
Does anyone remember hoverboards?
Does anyone remember hoverboards?
Yes, I also remember Segways.
Neither seems as widely adopted as escooters though...
I see people riding them around Chippenham a lot, and they make perfect sense as the town expands outwards. From the outer eastern edge of town, to my house, which isn’t on the furthest western edge, it has taken me 45 minutes to walk home, and that’s without carrying anything like shopping. It would take an hour to walk the full width of the town as it now stands, the same time it’s taken me to cycle to Bath, twelve miles away! Of course there are people riding them and being dicks, but there are even more doing it on bloody bicycles! A couple of kids on bikes tearing along the footpath in town is not uncommon, weaving in and out of pedestrians, at least as fast as someone on a scooter, so someone please explain just how that’s less of a nuisance than an escooter. The better scooters not only have pretty bright lights front and rear, I’ve seen them with brake-lights and indicators as well, neither of which a bike has.
If I had the money, I’d buy an Apollo escooter; amazing thing, larger diameter wheels, front and rear suspension, tremendous range, and decent lights, and they’re designed to be used off-road, so the average shitty urban road surface wouldn’t be an issue.
The bad news is that if she then did get six more points (one mobile phone use, or letting her insurance lapse, or driving far too fast) she’d be disqualified for six months.
Well, there’s an easy answer to that argument; hands up, children, if you can tell me what it is.
This one looks kinda fun, and there’s no argument about lack of lights…
There’s a guy running around Edinburgh with one like that, it looks friggin amazing.
Reckons it cost him 2.5k, he also says he hasn’t been above 45mph on it.
Has to be told every day that it can’t come in the bus, it has to be folded and put in the boot.
‘But the driver yesterday let me bring it inside’
“Er, I was the driver yesterday, and the day before that”
Doesn’t seem too quick on the uptake.
Citylink have now amended the rules so that they can’t go in the boot either, just as an fyi.
Here’s the top of the range Apollo, certainly not cheap, but then a bike with similar specs probably wouldn’t be much cheaper. 40 mile range if used sensibly, twin shocks front and rear, hydraulic discs, 1000lmn front light, brake light and indicators…
With that range, I could ride to Bath, then back home via the canal and lanes to Chippenham on a single charge.
"I suppose there are also some people who might ‘park and ride’ a scooter into town from 1-2 miles out."
This is the seed which will become a forest. I don't understand why people can't see this. And that's just one use case.
It's making the Brompton concept accessible. Both price / ease, but also your ordinary self conscious person would happily do it, whereas there is huge taboo around riding a bike, not least an 'old man Brompton'.
Modal change.
Has to be told every day that it can’t come in the bus, it has to be folded and put in the boot.
....
Citylink have now amended the rules so that they can’t go in the boot either, just as an fyi.
Why? pressumably this is a coach, if its got a boot, and fair enough not wanting a big bit of luggage rattling around between the seats, but if it can be folded into "hand luggage" i dont see why its got anything to do with the bus operator.
Pressumably they would carry a folded mobility scooter.
i dont see why its got anything to do with the bus operator.
Big, high energy density battery of unknown provenance bouncing around in the bottom/back of a bus.
I wouldn't fancy it either.
Big, high energy density battery of unknown provenance bouncing around
On top of the (hot) engine, quite near the 100 gallon diesel tank . .
Anyway, if your scooter has a 40 mile range, why do you need to go 1.5 miles on the bus with it?
Anyway, if your scooter has a 40 mile range, why do you need to go 1.5 miles on the bus with it?
Because your mates are going to sit at the back of the bus and get blazed, and you want in? All scooter riders are teenage sociopaths, remember?
I dont understand why the govt isnt jumping at the chance to get more cars off the road by creating a lightweight framework for using qualifying escooters legally - in a similar way to how they enabled qualifying ebikes to be used legally.
Other european countries have enabled them to be used legally (eg spain https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/32617/new-rules-for-electric-scooters-on-spain-s-roads)
They really could be the transport revolution everyone is looking for.
This is my intuition about them as well, but they may become an appealing alternative to getting a car in the first place for younger people.
Yeah, if it's better than the bus it might delay young people buying cars or making them realise they might not need one.
Apparently, numbers of young people learning to drive are falling.
Can’t remember where I read it (FT or Economist probably) but the initial results from the offical trial schemes aren’t that promising. Turns out most people using them and young people substituting walking / cycling and public transport for escooters. The overall carbon footprint has actually gone up as the scooter batteries are carbon intensive. They have agreed to extend the trial period as a result of the Pandemic getting in the way, but they’re not a ‘green’ alternative.
All the people with cars are still using cars to get from A to B and the whole ‘green’ premis of escooters is that they would substitute car journeys. So far, very little evidence of that.
there's fundamental flaws with trials though:
1. They use a rental model. Car journeys are made by affluent people who favour convenience and are willing to make a capital outlay for that convenience. Rental models align better with those who don't own cars - so they won't displace car journeys!
2. They are set up in the centre of large cities. That initially seems logical, but the geofenced restrictions likely mean the users are most likely to be people who walk/bike/bus for those journeys anyway.
it would be interesting to take a few 10-20K people small towns allow personal ownership (or long term lease) rather than pay per use rental - I'm pretty sure that in my middle class utopia where congestion on one unavoidable central road causes genuine air quality issues and makes it just as quick to cycle anyway that people would switch to these, and the people who commute by train to the big cities and fight for limited parking would even use them to come from the neighbouring towns within a 4/5 miles radius. I know plenty of 2 car families that would find this a solution to getting rid of a car, especially if they were permitted for use by 14yr olds like an ebike.
The sort of journies you would use an escooter for (2 miles or less across town) are ones where you can never make driving too expensive, you just have to close the roads to cars completely in town centres.
Not convinced by that - even a £1 across town each way "toll" or £3 parking at the other end would be enough to make people pause and think if they really need to make that journey or if they could do two trips at once etc. But the scooter needs to be just as convenient as your car - so at your door, not 200 yrs away with no certainty there's any left in the stand etc. If I go somewhere a couple of miles away for an hour (say the gym) and park it outside I need to know I'll come back out and be able to get a scooter to come home - but don't want to pay rental for it doing nothing. This is why ownership probably is the way it needs to work outside the really big cities.
Well, there’s an easy answer to that argument; hands up, children, if you can tell me what it is.
Of course! (I should also acknowledge that I was wrong, and even more 3 points will trigger the New Drivers Act as someone else pointed out). However the point was don't assume that getting the 6 points before passing your test made them irrelevant - if you do something stupid as a new driver and get 6 points you have to retake your tests. If you do something stupid as a new driver who happened to have been stopped on an escooter before passing their test you will be banned for 6 months - that's quite a consequence.
Not convinced by that – even a £1 across town each way “toll” or £3 parking at the other end would be enough to make people pause and think
If you’re running a ‘21 range rover v8, i doubt that would make much difference tbh
I’m all for sensible scooters, but i think that generally ‘at the moment’ they’re not replacing cars, they’re replacing walking/cycling/bus.
Cost won’t encourage many people out of cars.
But inconvenience might.
young people buying cars or making them realise they might not need one.
Apparently, numbers of young people learning to drive are falling.
My two boys (18 and 22) have absolutely no interest in learning to drive, both had a few lessons but didn't enjoy it. The eldest has moved out now and simply rented a house within walking distance of work and the supermarkets.
If you’re running a ‘21 range rover v8, i doubt that would make much difference tbh
most people are not running range rovers or v8s!
I’m all for sensible scooters, but i think that generally ‘at the moment’ they’re not replacing cars, they’re replacing walking/cycling/bus.
see my comment above about the trials - they've been set up in places were walk/bike/bus is already sensible. Move them to areas where its slightly further (or hillier) or with fewer busses - in those areas people could use foot/bike/bus but generally don't for convenience, so these could displace cars in those settings.
Cost won’t encourage many people out of cars.
But inconvenience might.
Conveninece will win. That could just be the convenience v's parking, or convenience v's waiting for a bus.
Is there nothing available with a larger front wheel ? which I think would make it safer, or at least less likely to induce an OTB scenario.
Maybe even something like this, where the center of gravity is a lot lower
Is there nothing available with a larger front wheel ?
Yes, but then you're effectively looking at a moped.
If scooters are legalised then everyone using one should have to take a CBT to show some knowledge of road craft.
.... And wear a helmet.
E-scooters can go as fast as a moped (although are less stable) and mix with other road users, so should be subject to the same regulations.
…. And wear a helmet.
That’s something I’d do anyway, despite the refusal of some people to acknowledge that wearing a helmet can be a real benefit, I have personal experience of that coming off my bike at walking pace, around 3mph, and at 15mph, a head impact on a kerbstone could be fatal. As far as keeping up with traffic, my average speed on a mountain bike was around 12mph, so 15mph would be quicker!
I’ve seen 42mph downhill on a bike, and overtaken a car at the bottom of my road at 35mph, and I’ll be honest I’d be very wary about going any faster than that, even if the scooter was capable; I’m just not really brave enough to try it!
I’ve seen 42mph downhill on a bike, and overtaken a car at the bottom of my road at 35mph, and I’ll be honest I’d be very wary about going any faster than that, even if the scooter was capable; I’m just not really brave enough to try it!
Same - they are just unstable at that speed, and with the quality of the road surface being very variable, it's highly dangerous.
I’ve seen 42mph downhill on a bike
There's a probaility attached to it though.
It takes me about 20 minutes to climb Pisshill in the Chilternss at 10moh, and about a minute to descend Britwell hill on the other side at 45mph.
1 minute at 45mph does not have the same risks as being able to maintain that for a long period of time. Even before you account for bikes being intrinsically less likely to crash.
E-scooters can go as fast as a moped
Make sue they can't then. Legal e-scooters could be limited to whatever the law decides, could be lower than e-bike assistance level and say 10mph for an e-scooter.
Being able to travel 10 miles in a hour is a whole lot faster than walking.
Make sue they can’t then.
Yeah.... right. Good luck with that (see also modified e-bikes).
The jury’s definitely still out, but it’s strange how many people post about “they’re all a bloody menace” without realising they sound exactly like anti-cycling gammons.
Perhaps, but the lack of a legal status for privately owned E-scooters has led to that special situation where there basically are no "responsible" owners/users as they're all effectively choosing to break the rules.
And I'm Fully aware that anecdotal evidence isn't really worth much, but for every E-scooterist I see using lights and observing basic traffic rules (as if they were on a bike) I probably see about 20-ish scrotes riding in the dark, without lights on and off pavements, you can't really ignore them.
If you want to compare that to Angry Mondeo-men; bemoaning RLJing #bloodycyclists fair enough, you do have to acknowledge that some people on bicycles behave like bell-ends too though, and most tin-boxers don't really distinguish between different types of bicycle user. is there much more nuance to the usersgroups for E-scooters?
I think we can all appreciate there are differing levels of responsibility/care taken by E-scooterists, but so far the majority (yes mostly anecdotally) are a general menace and somewhat undermine the arguments for their legalisation...
If they were replacing cars or "last mile" journeys from park 'n' rides then that might help with E-scooter green washing/justification...
As it is I fear they are headed for a similar fate in the UK to what we've seen elsewhere in the world:
Yeah…. right. Good luck with that (see also modified e-bikes).
No luck involved. Laws are not based on the fact that a minority of people could break them and because there would be a widely known 10mph max speed law it would be very clear that someone riding an e-scooter at 25mph is breaking it.
Had a meeting at the local Uni yesterday afternoon, first sign on the doors:
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51912926660_2ea3889e91.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51912926660_2ea3889e91.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2n6njtE ]Scooters[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
Is there nothing available with a larger front wheel ?
They fold up really small partly as the wheels are so small. A bigger wheel would make them more bulky. And to be fair, they seem to work fine with tiny wheels as it is.
Segway are getting into the performance escooter market as well, now. And it has larger wheels, which are designed to be more puncture resistant, it has full suspension, and an app control system.
Not cheap, probably, and heavy to lug around, but if you want range, that requires a larger battery. It’s allegedly got a range of over 50 miles.
Is there anyone here who genuinely hasn't ever seen one of these? Despite claims of tens of thousands of them being sold every year by just one retail chain I've never seen one in the UK. Ever.
Ayrshire, Stirling, Sheffield, nada. Not one. I can only assume the near constant wind and rain do them in for Ayrshire, maybe its the hills in the latter?
End of the day, having something that replaces walking is only good if its weather you'd actually want to walk in. The thought of being perched on a scooter in 30-40mph gusts (not unusual round here) wearing some baggy rain wear with horizontal rain (again, not unusual) eroding my face or else being waterboarded by the required buff (other face coverings are available) whilst attempting to navigate the potholed roads is only marginally more appealing than slamming my dick in a drawer, over and over again and even that's dependant on the kind of day I've had to that point.
YMMV
You seem to know a lot about slamming drawers, you must be from auchinleck surely?
The speed thing with escooters is a catch22 - anything faster than walking and the pavements suddenly become a minefield for them so you're onto the roads. And plodding along a road at 12mph when everything else is flying past at at least twice the speed while you're trying to dodge potholes doesn't sound like fun. 30mph escooters and then you're basically a standup moped so into trainig, insurance, helmets etc.
You seem to know a lot about slamming drawers, you must be from auchinleck surely?
Oaft, nae chance! My papa was from Dalmellington though.
And plodding along a road at 12mph when everything else is flying past at at least twice the speed while you’re trying to dodge potholes doesn’t sound like fun.
That is pretty much cycling for a lot of people who ride bikes. Not everyone is riding along at 20mph and a lot of people riding on the road are riding at around 12mph. Even with an eBike they will only be riding at 15.5mph which is still a lot slower than cars which will be flying past.
That is pretty much cycling for a lot of people who ride bikes.
Most commuters are much slower than recreational cyclists, 10 mph is probably about right on the flat. Often see older riders get off and push up any bridges etc.
Heavens sake, chap's looking for something safe for his darling daughter, and the talk is all about going 45+mph. I dont think we're inspiring him to think of a scooter as an option 😆
Interesting article in the local rag today, apparently across E&W last year the fire brigade attended 95 e-scooter (private, not rental/legal) fires! I'm guessing probably mainly shitty ones bought cheaply rather than ones you'd get from Halfords etc which you'd assume meet some kind of safety standard re. the batteries/chargers... definitely points to some kind of regulation needed ASAP though!
They're breeding!
Took this photo when they first came to Cambridge...
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50828100721_046759a920.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50828100721_046759a920.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2krviwa ]Voi Scooters, Cambridge[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
Passed the same spot yesterday on the way to the physio....
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51946486860_322b7a1986.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51946486860_322b7a1986.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2n9kjKN ]They're breeding (Voi scooters)[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
There's a Voi scooter outside the flats next door and someone has hung a dog poo bag (with turd in it) on the handlebar. It sums up Northampton perfectly.
Those e-scooters are accidents waiting to happen. All my colleagues I know of that bought one turned up to work with "war wounds" soon enough. But, having personally seen the way they ride them on the roads, I'm surprised they haven't all been killed. Shooting through red lights, crossing crossroads in the centre, not considering road conditions with relation to speed. Damp, anything really. Rider and scooter problematic.
We have ebikes everywhere here in China and different cities/regions limit what you can buy, register and insure. I definitely couldn't register my ebike in the last city I was in. It's seen as "too powerful". I would have got one here that did 100kph but it was for short people. It resembled a race bike, proper foot pedals too.
I currently have what looks like a Citycoco (Harley) model. 72v, 3 speed settings, supposedly 25/40/60kph. It actually does 29/39/42. I have to service it and figure out what's going on.
Anyhow, it rattles, bangs, pings, squeaks and twists as you head down any road not smooth. Rides beautifully on smooth roads. Really wide tyres that tempt you to crank it over. I try not to though, as plenty of years riding motorbikes back home give me enough to know what deathtraps these things are. Even in tiptop condition it feels like a 50cc scooter that has had the restrictor wires yanked, the throttle cable is frayed, the front end is twisted from crashing into the conservatory because you popped a few wheelies to impress your nates, and you have an urge to go around with a bottle of threadlock making sure everything is secure.
As someone who always upset my mother with my motorbike riding, I'd still want my kids on proper road vehicles instead of these deathtraps.
Looks like there is going to be an announcement on May 10th.
My commute is what is now called gravel.
What scooter with big wheels,suspension and a battery that won’t catch fire should I look at?
Edit, really don’t need one but it might come in useful one day.
Just read that report, she was also ordered to pay a 'victim surcharge', in this instance and in many other reports on similar 'non victim' offences that I've read, who is the victim that receives said surcharge?
Literally the first google hit:
Thanks....literally.