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https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/5273
volvo did a lot of research on this and can easily make an A pillar that does not obstruct vision
those huge thick a pillars are far bigger than they need to be for strength alone - they are also designed to look strong. tjhink of how big a race car roll cage is then compare it to an a pillar on many modern cars.
Loads of info out there around this/
If they're just to look strong why aren't they just thin metal and plastic?
Actually you know what never mind.
Show your working?
I think the Kei-car industry would love to see it. Currently they're falling some way short of your 500Kg target.
Even a Renault Twizy isn't far off that weight.
Thats not what i said at all
What I said was they are bigger than they need to be. Yes they need the strength but as race car roll cages and Volvo have shown they could be much smaller - but the need it not just to be strong but to look strong - hence they end up much bigger than needed for the strength alone
Read the volvo link to see how small they can be made.
That press release is from 2001.
Can you share your relevant qualifications so we assess if you talking from a position of authority? 👍
To get the weight down needs composites. Of course its possible but no one is going to buy a 500 kg basic car for the same cost as a 2 tonne luxury car
Some cars have front seats that weigh huge amounts like 50+ kilos each - because of all the eletrical stuff in them. thats all parasitic weight than then needs more energy to accelerate it - so yo need a bigger battery and biggar brakes etc and the weigh spirals.
We are back to needing legislation to enforce this
Look at the size of kei cars and compare them to what you are driving?
Look at family cars from 40 years ago - yes you need a bit more weight for modern crash safety but not that much - again look at Kei cars.
The attitudes you guys are showing is why the planet is going to be basically uninhabitable in your childrens lifetimes and obvious damage in yours.
its not a question of " its too difficult to do this without giving up what I want so do nothing" its "unless we do this the earth will become uninhabitable - how do we do it?"
With regard to weights of EVs, yes, they are heavier than ICEs at the moment, but not drastically so for many direct comparisons. The advent of airbags, safety cells and all manner of safety and electronic equipment in vehicles means the weights have been creeping up. It's no point comparing current weights with those of cars from the 70s and 80s.
Lighter vehicles would be good for everyone, but through regulations (safety) and personal choice around additional features a growth in sheer size, we're not focussing on that as much.
A current 3 series BMW saloon is around 1600kg (depends on engine and spec), a Tesla Model 3 from 1750kg. However as noted above, the larger SUVs seem to have really added on the pies when becoming EVs (e.g. Volvo XC90 going from 1950kg to 2800kg (for EX90) if the data is to correct).
Kei cars or equivalent have their place, but vehicular trips of less than a couple of miles need to be restricted anyway leaving cars to provide transport solutions where public infrastructure cannot. Is a tiny vehicle the answer - possibly not given the use cases are quite narrow for one. Would some sort of hired mobility solution work better - yes if we can change the mindset of people to accept they don't need to own something that spends 90% of it's time stationary. But getting an end to end solution that provides mobility on demand, in the right shape/size for the task is a way off yet.
As such, EVs aren't a perfect solution for personal mobility but given the lack of infrastructure investment towrds public transport outside of large cities most people will still need vehicles for the foreseeable. If they're going to replace older vehicles anyway, surely the EV route is an improvement over an equivalent ICE vehicle across entire lifecycle including manufcature/supply chain and ongoing fuelling?
tjagain
Full MemberThe attitudes you guys are showing is why the planet is going to be basically uninhabitable in your childrens lifetimes and obvious damage in yours.
its not a question of ” its too difficult to do this without giving up what I want so do nothing” its “unless we do this the earth will become uninhabitable – how do we do it?”
A BMW i3 is about as light as you will get for a family sized electric car with current battery tech.
That uses narrow wheels for weight & aero savings, carbon fibre frame, lightweight seats, etc. It still weighs in at 1300-1400KG depending on spec. 500KG is not realistic with current battery tech.
For a city car limited to 28mph, maybe. Those have very relaxed safety standards compared to a regular car though.
eta- like this one previewed on Fully Charged yesterday, take a look and you'll see it's basically a glorified golf buggy. This is the 2 seat version but they are planning a 4 seater.
The attitudes you guys are showing is why the planet is going to be basically uninhabitable in your childrens lifetimes and obvious damage in yours.
Ok you know what, I told myself I wasn't going to comment but this is ****ing aggravating.
Most of us WANT the same changes as you. You keep banging on about how easy it is, apparently completely ignorant of the realities of the situation. What you wish for is all fine and good but given the world we live in right now, it cannot be done overnight. You going on about it will not make it happen.
We point out why it isn't happening right now, and you mistake that for an endorsement of the status quo.
I would really like a cheap safe small electric car. But, when I needed one, I got the best one I could afford that was available. And that's how these things work, because of the capitalist system we have and don't you ****ing dare pin that on ME personally. You are extremely naive, I'm trying to point out what you are missing. But you refuse to listen, as always.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to the shop. On foot, in the pouring rain.
its perfectly possible to build and electric 4 seater at less than 500 kg with decent crash protection.
What are you building it out of, graphine?
again look at Kei cars.
I just did, because I was curious. A 1950s Mini is over 500kg, and they neither required huge batteries nor were famed for their crash protection.
Wikipedia lists the Mitsubishi i-MiEV as the first electric kei car - kerb weight 1,080kg. Current (2022) models are the Nissan-badged Sakura and the Mitsubishi-badged eK X EV, both the same kerb weight as the i-MiEV.
I put it to you, sir, that with all due respect, you are talking shite.
And once again you are not listening nor taking this seriously enough
Your unwillingness to accept the severity of the issues is why the planet will become basically uninhabitable in your kids lifetimes.
I am NOT saying its easy. I am saying its necessary. there is no alternative apart from giga death and starvation
Cougar - and how much luxury kit could be taken out of them> Air con, electric windows etc - then use composites - further weight saving, then because its lighter you need a smaller battery - and the weight savings spiral
this is the point. We need to look at vehicles differntly. Kei cars are a step on the way
... and of course, being able to carry four people is all well and good. But you're shit out if you want to take those four people down from Edinburgh to a fortnight's holiday in Cornwall. My girlfriend could probably fill the boot of a kei on an overnighter in Manchester. And that's before you consider a (claimed) 110 mile range before it needs plugging back in.
MOlgrips - yo constantly do not hear what I am saying and totally misrepresent what I am saying because its too uncomfortable for you ( not just you - most folk)
Your claim we want the same thing is just an example of this. We do not as I have repeatedly tried to explain
its not good enough to say the solutions are too hard. without the solutions the planet becomes basically uninhabitable in your kids lifetimes
you are coming from " what is possible now without lifestyle change"
i am coming from - "this has to be done or else its giga death" ie the opposite direction.
Again Cougar - you are looking at this only in the limited way of what can be done without lifestyle change. Not what needs to be done to prevent giga death
My advice after having an electric car for 3 years is that they are great and would never go back, but charging needs to be easy. If you can't charge at home or if it is a faff, look elsewhere. Especially for the millage you will be doing each day. Running a cable over a pavement isn't a practical solution in my mind and it also assumes you can park outside of your house every night. Public chargers just can't be replied upon in my experience. Far to many are broken, have the wrong connector or are full when you need them.
I don't agree in any way with the people that talk about greenwash. Electric cars are cheap as chips to run and drive really well with all the torque. The Nissan Leaf we have drivers far better than the other cars I have owned, including a Gold GTi and Alfa Romeo 147.
how much luxury kit could be taken out of them
How much luxury kit is there in the first place in either a classic Mini or these kei cars you have a hardon for? I'd be surprised if a 1959 Mini had seatbelts.
Call me Mr Selfish, but I think I'd quite like aircon if I'm to be sitting in a tiny box of farts with three other people for ten hours in July. Sorry, planet.
Your proposal would be a) massively expensive, b) almost certainly impossible, and c) mindbendingly shit. I've driven cars like that, they're fine if you're popping to the shops but not fit for purpose if you have to do any real distance (and still weighed two to three times what you're claiming, a poverty-spec Up! is around a tonne).
Again Cougar – you are looking at this only in the limited way of what can be done without lifestyle change. Not what needs to be done to prevent giga death
No, I'm looking at physics.
The lightest car I can find in the UK today is the Twingo and the Fiat 500, both at 865kg. If you reckon you can take either of those cars, shave over a third of their bodyweight without compromising safety and make them electric-powered rather than ICE, I strongly suggest that you get on the phone to Renault and Fiat because you're going to become very, very rich.
I have no idea what "giga death" means, but I'm not aware of any airports offering flights of fancy just yet.
Call me Mr Selfish, but I think I’d quite like aircon if I’m to be sitting in a tiny box of farts with three other people for ten hours in July. Sorry, planet.
and there in lies the problem.
People need to understand that massive lifestyle change is the only way to prevent giga death in your childrens lifetime and a much degraded lifestyle for those left alive.
Mind you - I don't think yo have kids do you? I will be dead in 30 years. I don't really care about what happens then.
electric windows etc
Electric windows weigh less than window winders.
People need to understand that massive lifestyle change is the only way to prevent giga death in your childrens lifetime and a much degraded lifestyle for those left alive.
People need to understand that they have to have a much degraded lifestyle in order to avoid having a much degraded lifestyle?
Sure, OK, that makes sense. But horses are also twice your 500kg and I don't think they're allowed on the M6.
and there in lies the problem.
Personally I think decent air con is a safety feature. It's helps prevent drowsiness on hot days, and prevents windows from fogging up
TJ the nonsense you spoke in the statement below that utterly derailed your own point and has caused all the challenges you're getting.
its perfectly possible to build and electric 4 seater at less than 500 kg with decent crash protection.
Ariel Atom is bits of scaffolding and two carbon seats, it's just under 500kg. Caterhams are around 500kg, no fancy bits and pieces there to reduce weight. Original Kei Cars do seem to have been around 500kg but with a tiny engine and no batteries to haul around, wouldn't like to crash into a crisp bag in them either.
Citroen Ami is a two seater version of what you describe, it has two seats, plastic surrounding them and very little else. It's 485kg and has a 44 mile range. You say it is perfectly possible to build a 4 seater electric car under 500kg which is clearly nonsense without a single digit range or a hundreds of thousands price tag. Just think where you'd save enough weight on the Ami to add more body size and two extra seats while keeping it safe. i-MiEV mentioned is 1160kg, can't see many fancy bits and pieces on that.
There are also weight penalties that are very worthwhile on electric cars, like the brake regen technology. If you'd set a realistic number like 1000kg this wouldn't have gone anywhere near as off track and your real point wouldn't have been hidden behind such an unrealistic statement.
FWIW I agree that the focus should be on making electric cars as light, small and efficient as possible rather than the arms race of who can pack the most technology into a car.
Fair enough steve.
I'm out of this
Everytime this sort of issue is raised we get the same folk who claim its all impiossible whenwhat they actually mean is its not possible without altering our lifestyles
yo constantly do not hear what I am saying and totally misrepresent what I am saying because its too uncomfortable for you
It's not 'uncomfortable' I agree with you. We need massive change. As if I'm so mentally feeble that I can't face things that make me sad? The CURRENT situation is the one that makes me sad. I'd be really happy with the utopian future.
Everytime this sort of issue is raised we get the same folk who claim its all impiossible whenwhat they actually mean is its not possible without altering our lifestyles
Every time this comes up you claim we can all work next door to our houses and that we can all simply choose the same lifestyle as you. This is patently not going to save the day because en-masse people simply will not choose it. It needs government. People are trapped by the things that happen in their lives, and that cannot simply be willed away. I appreciate you have no experience of this, fine, but the thing that REALLY ****ING GRATES is that you simply refuse to listen to and attempt to understand other people's stories.
It's the refusal to listen that really pisses me off. I fully agree that we all need major lifestyle change, but honestly, people moving closer to work isn't even it, even if it were possible. But really, what a dick move to dismiss the things that other people say. And before you clap back, I am listening to what you say, and I agree we need major change. I just don't agree that it will ever be possible by people's individual actions.
Fair enough steve.
Fair enough steve AND ****ING MOLGRIPS thank you very much!!
Everytime this sort of issue is raised we get the same folk who claim its all impiossible whenwhat they actually mean is its not possible without altering our lifestyles
There's always one person who claims something is possible, without providing the evidence to support their claim.
needing legislation to enforce this
Will actually be the route. Not arguing on a forum.
People won't change anything, unless forced to do so. Gov won't change anything, unless forced to d......oh ffs
A bigger A piller is for looks not strength
Nope, it's for roll over and side/frontal impact protection of the passenger cell. The A and B pillars take the vast majority of the loads.
– huge blockly A pillars are often mainly trim.
Nope, most modern cars they will be either 2 or 3 nested tubes, the outer one provides the paint surface, a degree of pedestrian protection (they are designed to be (slightly) flexible) and also (on the inside of the car) a surface to mount the trim, and curtain airbags). Next one in provides the vehicle structure, keeps the wheels in line, prevents the body shell flexing, controls the door aperture, so you can open the door if you park on a non-flat surface. The inner one (or sometimes the second, if there are only two) will provide strength to the crash cell, usually made of some high boron steel. Also connected to the side and front impact beams. Make them too skinny and they lose strength and stiffness and then have to be made of thicker material, that is, unsurprisingly, heavier.
Look at the size of a motorsport roll cage. Yes they need to be bigger that a 60s car – but not the huge size they are now
Motorsports roll cages are pretty useless compared to crash cells in modern cars, there's no built in squish, so you'll need a helmet, multipoint harness, HANS device as a minimum
Volvo did a load of work on this.
Yes, i've spent a lot of time poking round out old concept cars. I mean, it'd be foolish not to seeing as many of them (and parts of them) are dotted round the office or the company museum.
volvo did a lot of research on this and can easily make an A pillar that does not obstruct vision
Easily? You need to stop using words you don't understand. Those lattice A pillars were incredibly expensive and complex to make and still (even 20+ years later) can't be automated, all hand made, with rather unpleasant scrap rates. Though, there wouldn't be any point, because they'd fail most crash tests of the last 15 years.
its not a question of ” its too difficult to do this without giving up what I want so do nothing” its “unless we do this the earth will become uninhabitable – how do we do it?”
More like "it's too difficult to do this without making cars lethally dangerous or breaking some of the laws of physics.".
The way to do it is to stop pillocks driving a mile to the shop 19 times a week, flights of fancy like 500 kilo 4 seater electric cars are just a fanciful distraction. 1000 kilos is probably doable, given short range, limited speed/performance, zero frills and only just meeting the bare minimum safety requirements.
I’m out of this
I bet you aren't.
Everytime this sort of issue is raised we get the same folk who claim its all impiossible whenwhat they actually mean is its not possible without altering our lifestyles
It's not impossible because it requires a lifestyle change. It's impossible because it's, well, not possible.
If you believe you can make a 4-seater electric vehicle which meets modern safety standards including crash resistance and have it weigh in at sub-500kg, you're going to have to explain how because I can't see it.
Ariel Atom is bits of scaffolding and two carbon seats, it’s just under 500kg.
I've driven an Atom. It was an absolute hoot, but on balance I think that if I was going to be crashed into by an artic I'd rather be in a Mondeo.
Further to that I'd say that most miles are done in long commutes, so we need to find ways of reducing that. Incentivised WFH is one, but really good PT is another.
But really, I strongly suspect that the biggest footprint of our lifestyles is all the consumer crap we buy.
Original Kei Cars do seem to have been around 500kg but with a tiny engine and no batteries to haul around, wouldn’t like to crash into a crisp bag in them either.
I used to have a Suzuki Cappuccino and that weighed in approx 650kg.
Mate of mine back then worked as an engineer for Jaguar. He said its not as simple as lower weight means you will die. He was actually quite impressed by the head on crash structure of it, and said it would be good in a crash and more 'bounce' off stuff. He did however say that your insides would have a faster deceleration.
Until batteries get considerably lighter (if ever) EV's are going to be heavy. You need bigger brakes, suspension, tyres etc etc to cope with the battery weight.
The beauty of light cars is that parts last much much longer.
I.N.R.A.T.S.
OP - how about you buy a petrol-driven generator and leave that running behind your car, charging it overnight? No issues with trip hazards that way.
If you believe you can make a 4-seater electric vehicle which meets modern safety standards including crash resistance
Why does it have to? How about we stop adding technology to let people drive tired, or while they are on the phone, or having lunch, or generally like entitled ***** instead?
Caterhams are around 500kg, no fancy bits and pieces there to reduce weight.
I used to have a Westfield and that was about 580kg at the kerb, and it was mostly steel tubes, fibreglass, wheels, engine and seats . There's no way you could build a 4 seat car with anything like modern safety standards with that weight limit
Your unwillingness to accept the severity of the issues is why the planet will become basically uninhabitable in your kids lifetimes.
Not sure who the "you" being referred to here is. The sentence would make sense if it was directed at the folks who have made pointing out the downsides of the status quo into an offence punishable by multiple years in prison. I didn't have molgrips in that demographic, but what do I know?
Why does it have to? How about we stop adding technology to let people drive tired, or while they are on the phone, or having lunch, or generally like entitled ***** instead?
Because sometimes a collision is someone else's fault and it'd be quite nice not to die as a result.
Rather than batteries, can we set roads up like Scalextric?
Honestly people are working on that. Wireless scalextric effectively. May only be useful for Lorries that are on the major motorways most of the time.
molgrips
Full MemberHonestly people are working on that. Wireless scalextric effectively. May only be useful for Lorries that are on the major motorways most of the time.
Wireless? Interesting! Sure i read that somewhere is testing a trolleybus type overhead system for HGVs on motorways.
Because sometimes a collision is someone else’s fault and it’d be quite nice not to die as a result.
Ah yes. The SUV thread arms race.
The issue here isn't the vehicle or the fuel it's that people are back to viewing a 140mile round trip daily as a viable commute in solitary transport.
Although arguably the longer the commute the more skewed the sums are in favour of electric. I wanted an electric car but the breakeven between a small petrol car and the size of electric car to give the minimum range required (considerably larger than my super mini) at my milage was 15 years. In my area cars generally get scrapped for rot at around 15 years. - and fuel was much more expensive when i did those sums.
If you are claiming mileage then check what rate you’ll get from work - I did a regular work trip where I had to charge there and back at motorway services which was almost diesel prices … electric mileage rate was 5p so I was making a loss.. I just claimed as a petrol car in the end after a futile email exchange with HR.
Our HR made a blanket payment everyone gets the same rate no matter what the journey in a private car.
Yes, our company is the same - 17p/mile or something for EV usage which turns a tidy profit for charging at home, but is nowhere near enough to cover charging away.
Slightly off topic…..one thing that has to change is people’s perceptions of roads being only for cars. I have a 3 mile commute to work and about a 2 mile trip when going out on the beer.
I use the electric scooters in the city, they’re really good, but I honestly think people’s perceptions of us is lower than cyclists. I get close passed and aggressive beeps a good handful of times a week. Sticking to the roads is very unpleasant during peak times.
The cost is actually fairly high for the rental scooters though. When both me and girlfriend rent scooters it works out cheaper to get an Uber….when the weather is dry we still use scooters. My rental scooter to work is approximately £5 for just over 3 miles.
3 mile commute you say ?
Have you considered a bicycle ?
I heard they are rather good 😉
Ah yes. The SUV thread arms race.
Eh? He was talking about lane keeping and all that stuff.
Anyway, still loling at TJ educating Mert about all the stuff Volvo can do. Sorry but you couldnt have picked a better target if you tried.
This again? Really?
EVs are NOT greenwashing. Even assuming an energy mix which involves fossil fuels for generation, an EVs (assuming 50kWh pack) will pay for its production emissions in 40k km. A normal car is 19k km. so if you drive it for a further 20k, it’s better. Period. This also assumes full disposal of the lithium at the end of duty, which is rubbish.
EVs are the (realistic) solution IF you want to retain personal mobility over significant distances without significant fixed infrastructure.
Any other energy alternative, H2, P2L gasoline, etc is utter rubbish and will consume far more energy in the full life cycle than EVs.
I cycle everywhere but we do have an EV. For the last 2months, all of its energy has come directly from our solar.
The car is 6 years old, it battery efficiency is still over 90%. Do you REALLY believe this is greenwashing?
Your argument could be applied to solar panel production, house batteries, etc but they’re all part of the solution.
Perhaps we should focus instead on frivolities. Lithium in general battery use has gone from 11m to almost 45m tonnes in 6 years. Smartphones, iPads, headphones, bike lights, so much disposable tech, little of it contributing anything at all.
Currently we produce around 120m metric tonnes of lithium a year from mines, up around 300% since 2010. By contrast we currently produce 4.7bn tonnes of oil a year, every year and for every year we use cars that burn it it keeps going. Lithium, once mined, like titanium, will stay in the system. Oil is turned into heat and waste and needs replaced.
For most of this week the UK and France’s energy mix was 70-85% renewables.
Morning, work does get in the way....so for clarity I commute a total of 70 miles ,( 35 out and 35 back).
I live In a town in a rural area....train to Manchester is 1 hour 30 minutes for 35 miles single journey to get to my work would take 2hour 45 minutes, bus and train.
So left with no choice but to commute....I have commuted for 70 miles round trip, for the last 22 years to varoius employers, COVID lockdown working from home amazing. However my work is relatively limited so take jobs where you can. Moving well balanced partners work, 1.1 mile to her job and family life is excellent here so compromise.
Car wise not going for electric simply too much hassle living in a terrace,
Not sure how this electric revolution is going to work in Edinburgh, lots of terraces there as well.
Greenwashing, I get the points.
My cars are bought and usual get to 150 000 to 200 000 and passed through family. Is this not more of a balanced approach to consumption of material goods?
Thanks for all the advice on real life electric car experience
For most of this week the UK and France’s energy mix was 70-85% renewables.
Holy cow. Is that excluding nuclear?
Not sure how this electric revolution is going to work in Edinburgh, lots of terraces there as well.
They all have electric they can easily put small charging points by any parking spaces.
https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/electric-car-no-driveway
An EV might not be right for you just yet but I’m time they will be.
Edinburgh is mainly flats without parking. No chance for many folk of using EVs
There's a need for more charging points for sure, but then again, not many people can fill their petrol car up at home either.
I suppose if you have such a horrendous commute in terms of distance and time electric is best. I binned off the long commutes about 17 years ago and now cycle 10 miles each way. Far better for my health and mental health than being in a tin box for the hour plus it takes by vehicle. 40 mins on a heavilly laden MTB. Added benefit is its totally green, other than additional banana consumption
There’s a need for more charging points for sure, but then again, not many people can fill their petrol car up at home either
Completely refuelling your ICE car takes 10 minutes, you don’t need to leave it overnight at the petrol station, so the comparison isn’t really valid.
not many people can fill their petrol car up at home either.
Could that possibly be down to no requirement to - Not many petrol cars on the market that need filled daily even with a long commute.
Such is the charger situation up here is that zapmap list a local hotels charge point (my closest charger hence I've scoped it out - some 15 miles away /4 as the crow flies) .... When you arrive it's plastered with "for residents use only"
EVs are NOT greenwashing.
i don't disagree with any of the figures, they certainly emit less co2 than petrol/diesel. My concern is that it's just being used as a way of continuing the car-centric transport planning at government level. There are tax subsidies for electric cars (the reason they are cheaper to lease), new roads being built everywhere, entire new build estates with no tranport other than a car and naff all money for public transport. cycling and walking. It only solves the emissions problem, but issues with accidents, traffic, noise, danger for other road users remain. We have an electric cargo bike, but still a lot of times we use a car, because everything has been designed around it. There's no safe way to cycle to the local supermarket and no secue bike parking in town for instance.
Sorry rant over.