Electric cars - anyone opted for petrol recently instead?

I’m not sure how anxiety the whole trip then waiting hours for a charge before carrying on to the next hopeful place to charge is faster, more convenient or convenient.

Seems like this has descended into just an offshoot of the EV thread rather than reasons for people who are in the market not buying one in the first place. If you have an EV already this really isn't the thread for you.

Depends on your car, as another owner of an old leaf, though mine still does 100km pretty regularly. Once you get to the newer cars, life is good.
I don't actually know anyone who's bought a petrol car recently.

Depends on your car, as another owner of an old leaf

“range anxiety” is largely in the heads of people who’ve never driven them

I agree - only EVs in our household.

Why would you be anxious your whole trip? You can plan ahead, the car doesn’t suddenly stop working randomly.

How would you know how long the queue for charging is going to be to plan ahead?

Honestly you come over as hysterical half the time. And I know you’re going to write page and pages in response to this thread, but really, when lecturing people on EVs you should perhaps back off a bit if you aren’t an EV driver. If you are, and you’re still anxious, then do us a favour and sell it to someone who won’t be.

I just got back from a trip... Surrey/Cornwall/Surrey and each of the 4 stops (2 each direction) there were anxious EV owners trying to find a working charger.

And given that most people’s trips are to the shops, or work, there’s even less reason to be anxious.

Were YOU part of that survey because I don't know anyone that was? However what was asked was about the people on this thread worrying.

Given most of us own bikes ... most of us drive with bikes and use bikes more than average locally that's why any EV I could afford would be useless to me.
I'm taking the cost and range from WCA's post... I know he's got a screwed ankle so I can see why it works for him...

Where are they parking their ICE cars then?

Like the majority of people wherever they can... the more high rise and parking-less homes get built the further they have to go to find somewhere to park. I've done it in the past and it's miserable.. you get home and drop the family as close as you can then drive round for 1/2 hour looking for a parking space .. It's a constant theme on the local FB groups... "why are people parking outside my house overnight?" (erm because their house/flat has no parking - they aren't doing it because they want a mile walk home) It's also brought up on every major planning application (which for other reasons I follow)

A lot used to park at the Sainsbury's and Asda until they have both had a parking restriction added... that caused a big stir on FB as well, lots of people suddenly getting fines for parking in Asda overnight. (Have a look on google maps... no parking near for any of these houses) https://www.google.com/maps/ @51.3234098,-0.5414079,3a,75y,270.64h,86.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ6OPvJi7SuyNqRmiNHnvDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

A real example: I'm lucky to have a drive... the minor injuries clinic is 1.1 miles walk or 1.6 miles drive.

I recently tried to drive there (as the time before I then got sent to the A&E 5 miles further) and I couldn't find a single free parking spot much closer than my house to the walk in clinic... (still outside the designated town centre)... so I actually drove there, spent a good time looking for parking in all directions.. gave up and drove home and parked on my drive then walked. (I sorta just ended up close to my house after 30 mins or so and just thought sod it and to be fair I was driving a van so there may have been 1-2 smart car sized spaces)

I say lucky... after the last 4-5 places we lived not having any parking it was an absolute for me when buying the current house ***

northernmatt

Seems like this has descended into just an offshoot of the EV thread rather than reasons for people who are in the market not buying one in the first place. If you have an EV already this really isn’t the thread for you.

Yes and no ... I know YT isn't real life but I do see a lot of people with EV's giving up and going back to ICE...

What it does seem is some people want to say how as it works for them in their very specific circumstances how it should work for ALL of us.

Much of the argument is about economics with ICE vs EV - there is a massive gap at present, and it just doesn't work out for most people. we all know the answer is drive less, EV or ICE.

Not buying a new car and buying used makes better environmental sense, as does looking after a car and using it until it's not economical to repair, but many folk want a nice new shiny car every 3-4 years.

Tesla's seem to have less worry about charging, as they have invested in a network which results in a much better user experience - I know someone that's been round Europe in his Tesla, for next to nothing in 'juice' charges as his car has free charging on Tesla's network.

EV's are the way forward, but it's not mainstream enough. I just keep thinking how all company car drivers were 'forced' into diesel due to tax being based on CO2. Roll on a few years and they, the Government, eventually realise diesel wasn't such a good idea (everyone else knew about the emissions).

I don't think we will have the investment in infrastructure. Work's car park has 12 charge points for electric cars, lots of spare space/capacity, and it's free to use, but that's about 5% of the spaces, so wouldn't take many more people to get EV's before that's an issue.

Seems like this has descended into just an offshoot of the EV thread rather than reasons for people who are in the market not buying one in the first place.

True, but the points are still valid to the discussion. Especially around infrastructure and cost.

I am in a similar boat. My example is I have a 18 plate 1 series Beemer and would love to swap out but the financials don't add up. I come to the end of the 4 year lease next month and I am going to take out a loan to "pay off" the balloon payment and keep it for another couple of years.

For a good few months, I have been crunching numbers and massaging figures and EV doesn't even come close to affordability, efficiency and convenience for how I use my car. Right now it literally makes no sense for me to get an EV.

If there was more available (and affordable) 2nd hand stock then I might consider trading it in for a newer ICE 1 series. But only if the money was right.

Are folk considering leasing them as company cars through salary sacrifice?
The numbers look attractive if it's an option for you.

At the end of the day, the primary reason for me (and probably most other people) is that they're just too expensive at the moment.

I've got £3500 left on the loan I took out to buy my 2017 Skoda Superb, I've had it for 3 years currently and I'll probably keep it for another 5 years at least. Maybe by that time EV's will be under £20k for a decent model with close to 300 mile range... 🤨🤣

Although it does pain me that I have £18k's worth of car sitting on the drive sitting nothing most of the time - but having looked into the alternatives (hiring for holidays etc) the costs are stupidly high. And at the moment it's not actually lost much, if any value since I bought it.

And for those long trips that I mostly do in the car (my average journey this year must be well over 100 miles with multiple 5-700 mile journeys making up most of my miles) I'm not sure I could live without my creature comforts now. 1st world issues, I know...

Not buying a new car and buying used makes better environmental sense

I think there was a study that showed this wasn't the case (surprisingly). basically, your 3 year old phev will go to someone who offloads their 60mpg euro6 diesel to someone who offloads their 40mpg old diesel who gets rid of their 25mpg 2.5l petrol mondeo which was getting pricey to repair. So rather than going from using, say a 80g/km phev car to a 60g/km ev, the country's fleet is going from a 200g/km car to a 60g/km car. That saving works out pretty quickly in real terms.

What it does seem is some people want to say how as it works for them in their very specific circumstances how it should work for ALL of us.

I think that's just the chip on your shoulder. I'm not saying it'll work for eveyone right now - this is fairly obvious and does not need pointing out, really - I'm saying that:

1. Range anxiety need not be a thing if you plan and have half a brain
2. My circumstances aren't all that specific. I just have a driveway.
3. There is no need to dismiss the entire concept just because some people cannot afford them yet, or some people do not have a drive. Lots of people do and can afford one.
4. Infrastructure will come - it'll have to, otherwise no-one will be able to go anywhere in 20 years' time which clearly no-one wants to happen and will clearly become a huge issue pretty quickly.

Many of us don't have access to Lease via salary sacrifice - a nice little benefit for those that do from the Government. - Yes that would indeed make sense, and especially if you are in a higher tax band.

I buy and keep my cars, but usually buy at 1-3 years old, then keep them a long time because I look after my cars. £35k for a lower end EV is a heck of alot of money for a tin box.

We're in the position of having plenty of off-road parking and could have a charger fitted without much fuss, or charge off mains overnight, I've got potential access to chargers at work too.

We would only really need a small 4/5 seater type car with minimal boot space, maybe 100 miles range absolute tops, 70-80 would probably be adequate, most of our driving is within a 20 mile radius of home, often less. Essentially all we'd want would be a "runabout". But even then your looking at disproportionate prices both new and used.

And the market seems to be going towards bigger and bigger EVs not small town cars, which EVs probably suit best.

And the market seems to be going towards bigger and bigger EVs not small town cars, which EVs probably suit best.

there's already the zoe, leaf, mini, 208, corsa, fiat 500 and the honda e. Seems like a good selection.

Yeah I think it's just the car market [I]in general[/I] going towards bigger cars (the stereotypical Chelsea tractor for the school run, etc) as said there are a decent number of small electrics. I know a guy with the little BMW i3, he loves it! (and they're quite old now!) (EDIT: although having just googled it, the i3 is approaching end-of-life, and the "replacement" is actually significantly bigger...)

there’s already the zoe, leaf, mini, 208, corsa, fiat 500 and the honda e

VW e-UP, Smart Forfour also. But I'll say that the Leaf isn't really a small car.

In fact just did a quick search, the Forfour is £20k, that's probably the best runabout option. Of course, it's way more expensive than the petrol one.

Demand is currently huge, supply is very limited both new and used, so prices will stay high for a while. We can't all go EV overnight, of course. However, manufacturers are pouring everything into them, so we will see supply go up and prices will fall.

Small enough?
https://www.citroen.co.uk/models/future-models/ami.html

But will it take a 29er with just the front wheel off? 🤣

Can it tow my caravan 500 miles?

Can it tow it 500 miles more?

Can you fit two hayabusa engines to it?

Really adding to the thread guys.

But will it take a 29er with just the front wheel off?

Errmm, no "Citroën Ami may be small but it still has many practical storage areas as well as a baggage area in front of the passenger seat (whilst still giving the passenger plenty of leg room)."

Can it tow my caravan 500 miles?

And it's a no to that as well

"With a range of 43 miles and a top speed of 28mph, the Ami is a modern solution for modern mobility needs"

1. Range anxiety need not be a thing if you plan and have half a brain

That's fine if you can afford a 40 grand car with a 250m+ range. If you can only afford one with a 120m range then range anxiety gets real very quickly especially if it's cold and you are driving fast A roads.

there’s already the zoe, leaf, mini, 208, corsa, fiat 500 and the honda e. Seems like a good selection.

Talk about the "let them eat cake" answer; £28-30k for a shit box hatch with some batteries? And used they're a disgusting amount even for 13+ year Leafs (leaves?) drifting toward sub 50mile range. Or you can go out and buy a decade old aygo for half the money, about the same reliability, yes you carry on pumping hydrocarbons but at least be able to afford that option...

The real answer has been stated several times already, all of us need to drive less and own fewer cars, but thats still a limiting and socially exclusionary choice for many, our society is structured around car use, and if I chose not to drive (which I would be fine with) it has impacts on the rest of my family.

Wow! Thank you all - at least now I certainly feel more comfortable with my own decisions and cynicism. I wonder how it will all pan out?
(I've set a calendar reminder for a year's time to re-read this post).

Shame cars of any ilk are unsustainable.

Get a bike.

The real answer has been stated several times already, all of us need to drive less and own fewer cars, but thats still a limiting and socially exclusionary choice for many, our society is structured around car use, and if I chose not to drive (which I would be fine with) it has impacts on the rest of my family.

Stated repeatedly on this thread and the other one. And yes, this is the only sustainable solution.

That’s fine if you can afford a 40 grand car with a 250m+ range. If you can only afford one with a 120m range then range anxiety gets real very quickly especially if it’s cold and you are driving fast A roads.

No, because you know your car's range before you set off, surely? You dont set off on a 120 mile journey in a 120 mile car without looking for chargers on the way first, do you?

reduce the number of cars on the road

You Brits are generally fat ****eres..... The reliance in cars is both embarrassing and sad.

@molgrips

do you?

Yes.

But, at the other end of the bell curve we have very recently (don't laugh) had a customer raise a complaint because they couldn't *change the battery* themselves as it'd gone flat. And had got themselves stranded in the middle of nowhere.
They wanted us to buy the car back from them as it was unfit for purpose.
I've got that to deal with when i get back to work.

As far buying petrol instead of electric, yes, i'll get a PHEV next time, not an BEV (even though the PHEV will cost me about £150 a month more to lease) as the range on the BEV with bike racks (regularly) and caravans/trailers (2-3 times a month) simply isn't there yet.

The argument isn’t just financial it’s also relevant to consider the carbon footprint of a new EV versus keeping your old car. I think I read somewhere that you need to drive 10s of thousands of miles before you can say you have helped the planet buying your new EV car.
As many have said less cars on the road is the solution. For me the ideal future would be nobody owning cars, and a much smaller number of Uber style driverless cars stored local to each town / village, ready to order as you need them, range wouldn’t be an issue as on long journeys you’d just swap out to a charged car from time to time. Since we use our cars maybe 10% of the time, you’d end up with way less cars on the road. We would need to move away from cars being a status symbol though.
Failing that, a standardised removable battery would be my solution, filling up would be a matter of swapping out your battery for a charged one, no wait. Fat chance of anyone agreeing a standard for this though.

I keep being told on here petrol and deisel is too cheap and THEY should hit THEM in the pocket thats the only thing that works...not sure who they or them are mind...nice touch tho when you consider who will get hit the hardest...very classy

I agree but in reverse, hit THEM in the pocket with a cheaper alternative...

that wont make anyone rich tho so never gonna happen.

It really seems on here looking at other car threads that it appears the norm to spend 40-50k on a car

There is a good vid on youtube about the costs and carbon footprint of evs and ice,

Guy is all for ev but all things considered the balance point is quite interesting.

I think I read somewhere that you need to drive 10s of thousands of miles before you can say you have helped the planet buying your new EV car.

Someone does, yes, but not necessarily you. And provided it gets sold on rather than crashed, the car you order will do far more than the break-even figure.

Fat chance of anyone agreeing a standard for this though.

It's been thought of, but not really feasible currently. The battery pack is the chassis, on a modern EV, it can't really be removed.

I agree but in reverse, hit THEM in the pocket with a cheaper alternative…

that wont make anyone rich tho so never gonna happen.

Of course it will. As I keep saying, the cars are expensive now because they are selling all they can make at those prices whilst they are ramping up production. Once rich people all have one, the prices will drop. And it will make people rich, just ask Elon Musk. Or it will keep people rich - VW want to keep selling cars, and they will.

There is a good vid on youtube about the costs and carbon footprint of evs and ice,

Good, or appears good? EV tech is very fluid indeed, there are lots of ways to make batteries now and there'll be many more in the near future. So what goes into making a battery now won't always be the case.

Talk about the “let them eat cake” answer; £28-30k for a shit box hatch with some batteries? And used they’re a disgusting amount even for 13+ year Leafs (leaves?) drifting toward sub 50mile range.

It is a lot of money, but petrol cars are expensive too. Taking the 208 as an example, the elite petrol is 27k and the elite electric is 33. Taking into account resale values, over any lifespan with average miles, the electric is cheaper.

The oldest leafs are 11 years old and have around 50,000 miles, cost 7k. A golf of the same age and milage is 6k. Your break even there is what, 2 years tops?

It is a lot of money, but petrol cars are expensive too. Taking the 208 as an example, the elite petrol is 27k and the elite electric is 33.

Cool.

How do the base model prices compare?

How do the base model prices compare?

From peugeots website

Active premium plus is the lowest spec in electric at 30k

Active premium plus with a puretech petrol engine is 19990 otr ....

Yep, still looking at £10k extra for an EV equivalent on a lot of cars/vans or 50% more on the cost. That is just not a reasonable additional amount.
I don't buy expensive cars but do tend to run them for 10 years or more. I am sure I am not alone in being in a position where I simply will not be buying a small town car for £28K.

And that is from someone who actually wants an electric car - I don't care about range, charging etc,. just whether it makes financial sense.

That is also comparing new with new. You can buy a very good second hand petrol car for substantially less.

That is also comparing new with new. You can buy a very good second hand petrol car for substantially less.

Can also buy a used electric car for substantially less.

Nothing you'd actually want mind . But they exist

The margins between petrol and electric remain fairly consistent on anything you'd actually want to buy

Everyone’s calculation so far seems to be almost entirely economic. Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?

We’ve had our I3 for 5 years and knew at the time that it would cost us to have it, but it seemed the right thing to do. From the time we bought it, we switched to a 100% green electricity tariff (again costing more as it was exempt from the price cap) and have more recently been solar charging it.

We’ve been to Northumberland (650mile return), the Lakes (600mile) Cornwall (350mile) and Bournemouth (150mile no recharge) and whilst it’s taken on average about 2hours longer for each direction (assuming no stops for fuel in ICE) it’s been fine. We’ve always found a charger fairly easily, always stopping where there are alternatives nearby just in case.

Replacing my 19y old Touring is another matter. It only does 3000miles per year and from an environmental standpoint, the embedded energy of a replacement EV wouldn’t makes sense.

A bigger car is required for some of what we do, maybe 10% and range over 250miles would be preferred, but the net climate effect of producing a vehicle for that role, especially as an EV doesn’t stack up unless I keep it for 20years. Maybe I will.

Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?

Yep, that's part of my rationale as I choose the next car. Company car so the economics are artificially skewed towards EV's but regardless I see the EV as likely being more hassle to own when longer trips are a factor.

I'm not convinced of the environmental benefits of EV's right now due to the raw materials for batteries, the source of the energy being largely fossil fuel based, however I do see them as being part of the transition - battery tech improving and battery recycling becomes a thing plus we wholesale switch away from fossil fuels - towards a future when there IS a genuine environmental benefit. I'm not saying this to shoot down anyone who claims that EVs have an environmental benefit right now, rather to shoot down anyone claiming that the lack of environmental benefits right now is a reason not to own an EV - the point is their role as a stepping stone.

Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?

Of course, but its not a little cost difference, its a huge cost difference for some. Ok, if you normally buy a brand new 3 series BMW then buying electric next time is no great heartache. The £20k - £30k ish figures mentioned are more than the total I've spent on every car I've ever owned in 30+ years of motoring. Also I'd debate just how small that small difference is. There is a significant amount of green washing in it IMO. I don't doubt we'll own an electric car at some point but for now I'd rather just drive less.

Yes to the environmental impact thing. We needed a car asap and we could have got any old petrol runabout but we wanted an EV for environmental reasons as well as running cost and coolness.

We won't be able to justify the cost for another one though once this goes back. We only have one now because the lease was very cheap.

the point is their role as a stepping stone

This!

I've been saying this too for a while now. I like to think of EV being the MiniDisc to the ICE CDs. MiniDiscs were great, I loved them and they overcame the issues of CD but soon there will be the MP3 and iPod of the motor industry. Fuel technology is accelerating (excuse the pun) at an exponential rate because we have to do it.

Ultimately the MiniDisc was essentially still just a "disc" and batteries are still just batteries.

Stepping stone to what?

Battery technology may change, but electrified road vehicles make far more sense than any other technology currently available or on the horizon.

Stepping stone to what?

To whatever the future looks like. If it is just what we have now but battery powered then we are definitely screwed.

You could argue that the current crop of electric cars are a sticking plaster propping up the private car ownership model but hopefully we'll see a lot more progress. I think self driving will be the key to bigger changes and that really requires electric.

electrified road vehicles make far more sense than any other technology currently available or on the horizon.

Do they?

For those that have one now, sure. For those either without off road parking or decent charging infrastructure, not so much. Then there's the whole road freight issue. You also forget that there is a whole world out there besides the UK where either the infrastructure is worse or people drive what we would consider phenomenal distances.

Fact is we need more than one solution, there is no one size fits all. Whether that solution is ethanol, hydrogen or some sort of synthetic fuel I can't say but something else is needed.

The £20k – £30k ish figures mentioned are more than the total I’ve spent on every car I’ve ever owned in 30+ years of motoring.

Also this, although I've only been driving 13 years in that time I've spent a grand total of £11000 on cars.

It's a massive cost difference. We're in a financial crisis at the moment - only those rather well off can afford EV's or those with nice perks like company vehicles. The rest of the population can't afford them. I'm actively using a car less, so replacing my ICE car makes no sense environmentally or economically.

I could afford a EV, but I don't want one, nor do I want to be spending £35k on a tin box - given a choice I'd be getting a 3.7 V6 petrol sports car (for the use it would get). I cycle to work on an old fashioned manual bike - no motors, that's far greener than any e-bike or EV.

Stepping stone to what?

To a whole range of possibilities - not just related to cars. This is part of a much wider evolution. Some examples

1 - A move away from fossil fuels to renewables for the majority of our energy needs. Clearly the production and distribution side of things is developing right now but it's no use having 100% green energy production if cars are still running on petrol.
2 - Smart / distributed electricity grids - a move away from the current "few large sources sources" of production and a relatively dumb grid to one where there are multiple, diverse sources of energy production (solar, wind, nuclear, probably some gas power stations to "fill in the gaps" etc) and distributed energy storage to even out the peaks and troughs
3 - Autonomous / smart transport. A move away from individual car ownership to one where there is a local "on demand" type service - call the vehicle you need for that particular purpose. Potential for "platooning" on motorways and / or vehicle swaps - e.g. you take a small runaround type vehicle to a hub, then swap to a faster, more efficient high speed service to a hub close to where you want to be (hmmmm, maybe it could run on rails ;-)) then another runaround to get to the final destination. Maybe the runaround could become PART OF the more efficient fast service. etc etc....

etc etc - some of this is a bit pie in the sky right now and some is actively happening.

EV's are just a SMALL part of this, and should not be looked at in isolation.

Stepping stone to what?

Battery technology may change, but electrified road vehicles make far more sense than any other technology currently available or on the horizon.

I'm not sure if you're joking or needing more coffee.

Little fun fact that ties in with my MiniDisc analogy. I was a huge fan of CD then MD and on the way home from my honeymoon, the airport duty free had Sony MD players at a snip (remember those good old days of duty free?). The gorgeous yellow Sony thing was literally sat on the shelf next to a white block of a thing with a dial on it - an iPod 1, for the same price. I hesitated for a moment then thought "Balls to that, digital media won't take off..."

Point is, no one knows what's on the horizon, (not even you), but there will be something. Batteries and charging them is scrambling to use old tech to find a modern day solution. I'm pretty sure, by the time I am ready and capable to move away from petrol there will be better alternatives emerging.

another environmental aspect that hasn't really been mentioned much is the massive health benefits in reducing pollution from urban areas where cars and high concentrations of people are (even if it means shifting that pollution to less populated areas near coal power stations!).
I normally ride in primary position if I'm approaching a junction with no-one in front of me, to discourage a nobhead in his diesel Merc/BMW from overtaking, slamming on the brakes, and then covering me in fumes when he pulls away. They still do, of course, which is really annoying. I was cursing some guy who did it recently, till I noticed it was a Polestar, and a literal breath of fresh air as he drove off in front of me 😃

I think there's massive benefit to urban infrastructure vehicles like taxis, buses, bin lorries, delivery trucks, construction vehicles etc going electric, as well as private cars.

My wife's car of choice with engine of choice in colour of choice has just appeared second hand locally - an Audi Q3 1.4 TSFI - great for the majority of small journeys with the kids she does and the odd motorway run. I'm seriously considering this as an option for 5-9 years until my age, job circumstances and kids age/activities mean we can go down to one electric car.

Batteries and charging them is scrambling to use old tech to find a modern day solution.

Current batteries are old tech, but we will always need batteries so there will be new batteries. There are loads of ways to store electrical charge known to science, many have far better theoretical characteristics than what we currently use, but there are engineering challenges with putting them in cars. In a decade we will probably see solid state batteries offering twice the capacity for the same volume for lower cost than an ICE.

Don't forget that ICEs, even hydrogen or synthetic fuel ones are massively complicated, pretty inefficient and full of compromises, and are the result of nearly 150 years of development. The only reason we use them is because we were able to roll them out with fewer compromises - they are far from ideal. EVs are better in so many ways mechanically. There are so many things to go wrong with ICEs that just don't exist on EVs. Yes, people will complain about batteries, but I don't think that's going to be anywhere near as bad as people think.

Re the original question though - we want to have one car when the lease goes back, and I think that will probably be the diesel unless I get promoted at work or something.

PS there's an e-UP on Autotrader for as little as £223/mo if anyone's interested.

I'd love be an electric car for our family but it doesn't seem possible.

The £20k – £30k ish figures mentioned are more than the total I’ve spent on every car I’ve ever owned in 30+ years of motoring

This is me as well. Most expensive car was 4k about 4 years ago. It's still going strong. An electric would be ideal for my wife's 15mile each was commute. Can't afford it though 😟

Everyone’s calculation so far seems to be almost entirely economic. Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?

As others have pointed out, it is a bit naive to suggest the cost difference is "little"
For me there would be no inconvenience but I also don't really think the difference they make in the big scheme of things actually matters either. Environmentally and financially it would still be far better for me to just keep my 4 year old car until it can function no longer which could be 10 years or more.

Environmentally and financially it would still be far better for me to just keep my 4 year old car until it can function no longer which could be 10 years or more.

Study posted up there suggests that's not the case.

In a decade we will probably see solid state batteries offering twice the capacity for the same volume for lower cost than an ICE.

I predict your prediction is wrong...

Yes, people will complain about batteries, but I don’t think that’s going to be anywhere near as bad as people think

But absolutely this. Cost will reduce. A body of evidence will build up showing how reliable batteries are (which is very reliable) and how long they last (which is improving, battery lifespan is an active development thing).

The biggest issue preventing widespread adoption is still, and will be for a long time, the range anxiety thing.

PS there’s an e-UP on Autotrader for as little as £223/mo if anyone’s interested

Delivery when ? VW wouldn't even quote a time frame in February when I was in seeing them....and were pushing an up gti as a suitable test comparison to an e up

Point is, no one knows what’s on the horizon, (not even you), but there will be something. Batteries and charging them is scrambling to use old tech to find a modern day solution. I’m pretty sure, by the time I am ready and capable to move away from petrol there will be better alternatives emerging.

The Li-ion battery as we know it today was invented in the mid-80s and commercialised in the 1990 so not exactly old tech and there is plenty of development potential left in the technology. Just compare a modern ICE engine to one from the 1930's (which was about 30 years after 4-stroke petrol engine was commercialised). Next significant step will probably be solid electrolyte with twice the charge density and high speed charging from 0-100%.

God knows what you think the "better alternatives" will be. Maybe something like this?

Delivery when ?

I clicked on the 'in stock and avaialble now' box and the search returned three cars!

I think in the future we will see BEVs for most personal and light transport, and machinery etc; and for other usages we will see synthetic fuels generated with renewable energy. I think hydrogen will always be too difficult to handle and too expensive to compress.

Study posted up there suggests that’s not the case.

And given that there have been two large grassfires this week within "worrying" distance of my house. How long until statements like:

Drive over 20k miles a year

Become socially unacceptable EV or not?

I think in the future we will see BEVs for most personal and light transport, and machinery etc; and for other usages we will see synthetic fuels generated with renewable energy.

TBH the answer to all these problems is pretty obvious. Massive investment in public transport and bringing down the price of it to make it effectively free. Do that and most of the problems with cars of any type disappear. Making public transport desirable is the only thing that will get people to stop using petrol cars.

I think there’s massive benefit to urban infrastructure vehicles like taxis, buses, bin lorries, delivery trucks, construction vehicles etc going electric, as well as private cars.

This...

TBH the answer to all these problems is pretty obvious. Massive investment in public transport and bringing down the price of it to make it effectively free. Do that and most of the problems with cars of any type disappear. Making public transport desirable is the only thing that will get people to stop using petrol cars.

Alongside this.

EVs are better in so many ways mechanically. There are so many things to go wrong with ICEs that just don’t exist on EVs.

Like what? The only things I can think of that actually manifest as issues are starter motors, pumps, headgasket and belts/chains. Everything else is either an irrelevance outside of performance engines or else shared by both platforms. And for that matter, I can think of more than a few things that can go wrong with electric motors and battery packs, if you think they are fit and forget you really need to educate yourself (standing next to a motor when it bursts into flames due to years of misoperation and a fault that can only be diagnosed on a very specialised rig tends to focus your mind somewhat). From my experience of working in an industrial environment they can be just as unreliable as engines even with ongoing maintenance and condition monitoring.

Point is, no one knows what’s on the horizon, (not even you), but there will be something. Batteries and charging them is scrambling to use old tech to find a modern day solution.

No one knows, but many have insight. I do this as part of my day job - alternative energy transport and can tell you for a fact that nothing comes close to Sustainable efficiency for passenger road vehicles than an EV. Nothing. Hydrogen, Synthetic fuels, etc are all just greenwashing once the full energy cycle is taken into account. So much is lost in generation, storage, transportation, water and resource use that it’s incredibly wasteful. EVs by contrast can be charged almost directly from anything, almost anywhere.

Batteries will get more energy dense, charging will be faster but the fundamentals of an EV can’t really be bettered.

As for squirrelking and charging - most people don’t have a petrol station on their house/street either. Charging an EV to 80% on a rapid charger takes 15>50 mins once per week. That’s a short term solution. Long term - all that’s required is for local councils to place 1 or 2 street chargers in place which can be used for an hour and are then automatically fined if blocked. You have an RFID card linked to your house and your usage is charged as part of something like council tax.

Like what?

Everything to do with the combustion system and it’s monitoring.

Air flow meters and sensors, EGR valves and sensors, camshaft position sensors, injectors, coils, high pressure lines, head gaskets, oil seals, fuel senders. All of these things MUST be monitored and when the thing (or more likely the sensor) goes wrong, it’s a right PITA.

Contrast that with my now 6y old EV which has needed tyres a cabin filter and brake fluid change (absolutely nothing else) in 70k miles and it’s battery efficiency is still at 98%.

Everyone’s calculation so far seems to be almost entirely economic. Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?

...

Replacing my 19y old Touring is another matter

Sorry, but that's classic 😆

a little inconvenience and cost

"Little" being subjective of course.

Like what?

Things I've had to deal with in my time owning ICEs that aren't on an EV (off the top of my head):

Turbo hoses, turbo, MAF sensor, MAP sensor, injector seals, injector bodies (that was a recall), flywheel, inlet manifold, timing chain, cambelt, oil pump (another recall), EGR pipe and valve, intake flap, alternator pulley, drive belt, rocker cover gasket, CCV hose, vacuum timing advance, HT leads, exhaust (many times), camshaft position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, transmission hydraulic valves, exhaust mounts..

Then there's (to name a few):

Fuel pump, bad fuel, lambda sensor, clutch, clutch cylinders, alternator, oil return hoses, head gaskets, coked up turbo vanes, coked up inlets on direct injection cars, transmission bearings and all sorts of gubbins in there, oh, how could I forget DPFs, also high pressure injector pumps (ouch), engine mounts, swirl flaps

And the maintenance - spent £500 on servicing the Merc a few months back at an indy, that was a £250 service and a £250 transmission fluid change, whereas the annual main dealer service on the EV was £73 and I only did that to keep the lease company happy:

Engine oil, trans oil, spark plugs, injectors, belts, cambelt changes, air filters, oil filters, fuel filters...

The list is massive, I haven't even gone into stuff like crankshaft bearing seals leaking, timing chain guides breaking, big ends, valve clearances etc because they aren't that common.

And if you don't look after all that, the car gets progressively crappier and crappier to the point where no-one wants to buy it so it becomes valueless even though it COULD be fixed fairly easily. An expensive item with a lot of embedded manufacturing cost and carbon becomes worthless because of any or all of the above need looking after.

I'd also speculate that a lot of electronic items will last longer and be far less likely to fail on an EV because they're not subject to heat and vibration. I think one of our automotive engineering contributors said this some time back on the EV thread.

What do you think will happen to the 'what's wrong with my car?' threads when everyone's driving EVs?

electric cars are a lot more money to buy, but with fuel at high prices, the break even is pretty fast. at 10,000 miles per year and 45mpg average (probably about right for a newish car - sure they can do more on a run, but a lot of driving isn't on a run), you're using pretty much bang on 1,000 litres of fuel per year. lets say that costs you £1800, and tax is another £175, additional servicing costs are maybe £100 per year (probably more) - so your total running cost is £2k per year. An electric car is maybe £6k more than the equivilent petrol, would (if charged solely at home) costs around £700 in electricity, £0 tax. lets say you paid to charge once a month out-and-about, so another £150 - you're at £850 all in (this is also assuming no charging at work or at supermarkets etc - a "worst case" scenario if you have at-home charging).

£6k/£1150 is pretty much bang on a 5 year break-even, ignoring the increase in value at the end of the 5 years. Sure, you need access to that money up-front, but its definitely cheaper for some people in the long run

Long term – all that’s required is for local councils to place 1 or 2 street chargers in place which can be used for an hour and are then automatically fined if blocked.

re. maintenance, a chap I know who owns a big independent garage cries slightly when he thinks about EVs taking over, although they still need brakes/tyres etc, there's just so much less to go wrong! As said, that's got to be worth something, surely.

Sorry, but that’s classic 😆

How so?

I can think of more than a few things that can go wrong with electric motors and battery packs, if you think they are fit and forget you really need to educate yourself

It's an interesting point, I do wonder what issues will arise. But consider the number of moving parts in an EV compared to an ICE...

This is a great example of biased journalism:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-03/are-electric-cars-more-reliable-than-petrol-or-diesel-maybe-not-poll-says#:~:text=New%20Electric%20Cars%20Are%20Less,in%20its%20first%20four%20years.

It has 'EVs are less reliable' splashed all over it, but only half way down does it acknowledge that it's nothing to do with the fact they are electric.

yeah these are springing up in/near residential areas here now.

Where's that?

Contrast that with my now 6y old EV which has needed tyres a cabin filter and brake fluid change (absolutely nothing else) in 70k miles and it’s battery efficiency is still at 98%.

That's genuinely quite impressive. What EV is that? (no ICE would need that little maintenance)

I'd much rather have an EV drivetrain in my van in place of the clattery 4-pot diesel. I like a nice-sounding ICE but this definitely ain't one, so bring on the simplicity/refinement of an EV if it replaces that. Not to mention the potential ICE-related items that can go wrong already mentioned by more than one poster above - I'll add to that AdBlue systems, oil dilution and 'wet belt degradation' for my euro6 Transit Custom.

Contrast that with my now 6y old EV which has needed tyres a cabin filter and brake fluid change (absolutely nothing else) in 70k miles and it’s battery efficiency is still at 98%.

What car is that ? Everyone I know has had massive depletion of battery.

Do you just drive 2 miles a day on the flat?

I had a chat with VW’s chief technologist a few years ago and he mentioned that, on average, there were around 1800-2000 LESS parts on an EV than on an ICE car, assuming that the battery wasn’t assembled in house and the motor and electronics were. To him, at that time, this was both a positive and a negative. On the plus side, less parts in the BoM, less assembly operations and easier maintenance and less spares stock. But on the flip side, he would have significant troubles with the German Works Councils in that there is less man hours in assembly, thus leas time and less workers required.

Both are good from a profitability POV, but he predicted it would take over 5 years to get it past the Councils.

Which meant that Tesla would steal a march.

Not sure if this has been answered or asked. How much more metal is used to manufacture a typical EV vs its ICE equivalent? Batteries are pretty big, but the motors are quite compact. Are we using more materials overall? They also weigh a great deal more, so are people getting through tyres quicker? My Octavia still has the original rears after almost 30k. I know most people look at the CO2 during manufacture and during use, but if we are extracting more materials from the earth then that would be counter productive.

What car is that ? Everyone I know has had massive depletion of battery.

What cars are depleting their batteries?

The battery management strategies in different cars vary a lot, or they used to. 1st gen Leafs had rubbish battery cooling, and these are the ones that are on 50% capacity some years later. I think they are all much better now though.