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So the lease on the golf GTE finishes this summer, so a replacement is needed. Having lived with the hybrid for 3 years, I'm keen to go full electric, providing we can get a range of circa 150 - 200 miles. The Kia e-niro looks ideal, but waiting lists are a year to purchase. (The lease company can provide 1 at the end of the golf term, but I'll be spanking about 17k + VAT for 3 years, which seems a bit steep).
Leaf may be a possibility, but is a bit small for a family of 4 + dog. Does anybody have any experience of living with a Tesla Model S ? I quite like the idea of a second hand one, but I imagine maintenance costs / repairs are a tad expensive.
Do you realise the leaf is actually bigger than the eniro?, Just.
If you buy a used car direct from Tesla then they will come with a warranty and some peace of mind. I think the issue for me might be you might have to travel a distance to have official sevice and repairs, you'd have to look into it. BTW pre orders for the UK model 3 open on 1st May I believe.
VW ID pre orders open on 8 May, not sure of car size tho.
Are the basic ipace and / or etron outside your budget?
Most stuff is coming in 2020 the choice is limited at the mo.
I didn't realise that BA. Ipace and etron too much. I am tempted to put an order in for a model 3. Cant see me loosing much on it, even if I only keep it for a short period. Tesla just have such good charging infrastructure already in place.
My company installs EV charge points so we see a lot of EV cars. The Tesla is nice and has a useable range but it's too much money and some of them have lots of issues they need to go back for. The Leaf is good but to get a useable range you'll need the soon to be here 64kw version. The i3 again a nice car and very clever but range is the issue again. I drove the Kia e-niro today and that was the best for range and price, it had a genuine 260 mile range and drove great. I'd have bought one today if they had one but as you've said the waiting list is 18months.
Personally I'd wait for an e-niro or the Hyundai equivalent but I'd also wait till they are readily available so you don't pay list price. Buy a big car for family duties and a leaf for commuting if that's what you need it for 🙂
Yep, I'm not sure if it's exterior dimensions, interior volume or both, but leaf, eniro then Kona in order of size.
The RHD model 3 is due to land on these shores June / July, but that will be cars for people who put down 1st day reservations and choose the premium packages when building their car ie the most expensive 1st. People going for the basic model 3 and who didn't take out 1st day reservations, will be way down the list. I believe 1st day reservations in the UK started about 2-3 years ago and £1k deposit. The reviews of the model 3 are very good.
By the end of 2020 there will be loads out at med size price, Seat elborn (looks good), VW ID Neo and Crozz (both look good), MG eZS ev (looks like it might be reasonable price and size SUV goes on sale in autumn), something from Skoda I think. There's quite a lot of new names from China as well, model 3 copies and mid size SUVs, not sure when they'll be in UK tho, if at all.
Used Model S prices are finally softening and I'd expect them to drop some more - the big price cut on new S and X back in March has started to correct nearly-new prices and pushed the rest down too. Plenty of owners of older ones have been tempted to order a newer one so there should be better supply of used soon as well.
https://tesla-info.com/UK/inventory.html tracks cars on all the selling sites.
They seem pretty reliable for the most part, things like door handles have known fixes now. Some early ones had motor issues but all should have had warranty fixes by now - I think for UK cars they'll still be under a powertrain warranty even if the rest of the car isn't. I think they're a solid bet for a very roomy family car with plenty of range and the best rapid charging provision.
Leaf is roomier than a Golf, big boot too.
https://www.evezy.co.uk/ may be worth considering (30 day rolling contract, all-inclusive electric car rental) to tide you over until waiting lists come down or new things like the Model 3 become available.
Our GTE goes back in January so was thinking along similar lines but have a petrol MPV on the way over from Japan for family / big distances / lots of stuff, and will likely get an early Zoe or Leaf for the mundane everyday trips.
Can you purchase your Golf?
I have a BMW 330e which I purchased 2.5 yrs in to a lease. There just wasn’t anything of a reasonable size that was affordable
Recently speaking to a bloke who has a Tesla on lease. He can’t wait for the lease to finish as he has no end of problems
Test drive and order placed for an e-niro this morning. - Seams a really nice car. 12 months wait, although the salesman advised 'should' be nearer 8. - We'll see. More legroom, headroom and bigger boot than golf GTE.
Why did you not fancy the Nissan Leaf, as it's supposed to be bigger?.
Leaf seemed pretty small to me, felt a bit cramped in the back (although I'm 6ft so assuming you'll have kids in the back then not so bad), can't see you having kids + dog + luggage in one for a day trip though.
Not sure what the answer to the OPs question is though - Tesla for me are just too much of a price premium still although I'm hoping the model 3 is £30k I have a feeling it will be more like £40k (they haven't released pricing yet have they?)
The eGolf seems dull performance-wise
The yet-be-be-launched Kia Soul EV might be an interesting option but not sure how roomy it will be inside
Unless the Model 3 is £30k I'll probably go with a self-charging hybrid next and wait 3 years for things to improve before tying myself in with a home charger and paying a premium for owning an EV right now.
Read reports that the leaf rapid charging plug type is being forced out. - Not sure how true this is. 7 year warranty on the Kia seems a good deal.
"SELF_CHARGING HYBRID" arrgghh!!
This is marketing talk that seems to be taking over, it's not new, the old Prius was a "self charging hybrid"
The battery doesn't magically charge it's self and it doesn't whip out it's cable and plug it's self in. They all use a combination of the fossil fuel engine and re-gen braking.
Sorry I spend too long watching fully charged video's on youtube!!!
Any real world experience of the Zoe for a city commuter. Free recharging at work, 9 or 13 mile commute each way, and have a SUV and saloon car as well - SUV new-ish, saloon 17 years old ?
The second hand Zoe's seem very cheap, and around £70 a month battery rental would half the fuel bill.
Model S 3 years old 78k no issues big family car that can take full suss 650b with wheels on with back seats down
I've had a Zoé for coming up to two years. The battery rental and electricty used is similar to the fuel bill for an equivalent petrol Clio for the mileages done by most people. If you expect to half your fuel bill you have a very heavy right foot and a thirsty car. Check how much the battery rental is for your annual mileage.
Second-hand Zoés are cheap but they didn't cost much to start with. I paid 16 000e for a 40kWh vesion. So far so good. Test drive one and make up your own mind.
Tesla for me are just too much of a price premium still although I’m hoping the model 3 is £30k I have a feeling it will be more like £40k (they haven’t released pricing yet have they?)
This is quoted from The Guardian article on 26 April,
"Pricing in the UK has yet to be formally announced but Musk said in March that he expected the Model 3 to start at about £33,000."
Test drive and order placed for an e-niro this morning.
Good choice, excellent cars (slightly biased as Wife works for Kia UK)...
The Golf ID can be ordered from next week.
We love our Zoe; it was bought as a second car, but since we've had it it gets used for basically everything, even the longer journeys, as it's just much nicer to drive and a lot cheaper per mile too.
Being able to preheat and defrost before you've gone outside in winter is also truly awesome.
Any vivaro sized vans on the horizon? Looking to purchase in a couple of years.
Tesla Model 3 ordering and prices are now live on the UK website. Delivery in June apparently.
“Pricing in the UK has yet to be formally announced but Musk said in March that he expected the Model 3 to start at about £33,000.”
£38k for the standard.
About the same price as a BMW 3 series of similar performance and specification, but the Tesla will cost a lot less to run.
About the same price as a BMW 3 series of similar performance and specification, but the Tesla will cost a lot less to run.
Yup. It also gets the government grant too.
So starting at £34500
No, it's definitely £38k starting price.
Musk will have included gov grant in his statement, is my point.
Musk will have included gov grant in his statement, is my point.
I'm not so sure myself is my point.
I enjoyed Paton's video above. Looks like they're doing interesting things, but I couldn't help but laugh when matey said 'there's so much more space in these old cars, because, err' and tailed off. Helpfully the presenter didn't say 'because there's none of that safety shit in here?’. Lol.
Not actually heard of the VW ID stuff before, looks interesting.
Slightly disappointed in the Tesla 3 pricing, I guess the good thing with them is apart from the performance packs there's not a whole lot of options to jack up the price (is it just me that thinks everyone else charging for car mats is a piss take? :p ). The self-driving option is a bit steep but not actually too much of a premium to add on later
Not actually heard of the VW ID stuff before, looks interesting.
It is but we'll see if they are close their price promise too.
Model 3 is over 40k
Model 3 is over 40k
Not according to the Tesla site they're £38.9k
Nope - 44k including luxury car tax. Then minus the PICG its 40.5k
Tesla model 3 starts at 38.9k for the 2wd version before any discounts or grants. Tesla's are tempting as they work well, but they are early adopters of the new technology and don't have the experience and I can't help thinking that as the mainstream manufacturers start releasing their models they will quickly overtake Tesla, so although I fancy a Model 3 and will probably be getting one next year, I wouldn't want to get too invested in it or Tesla, so will probably look to lease...I think Tesla will be overtaken very quickly and will fall into decline rapidly over the coming years as the main manufactures who actually know how to mass produce good cars come into play. Tesla so far have had a free reign with no real competition and with some stiff competition coming they'll struggle. I certainly wouldn't be considering buying a used Tesla.
Tesla’s are tempting as they work well, but they are early adopters of the new technology and don’t have the experience
WTF! Tesla have more experience than any other EV manufacturers in the West, followed by Nissan and Renault. Things are progressing fast and it seems to me that Tesla, Nissan and Renault are still at the top of their game in their respective sectors. The Zoé and Leaf keep leap-frogging each other in terms of range and appeal to slightly different parts of the mass market, the Leaf having a bit more accomodation. The new Leaf+ and Zoé 2 (for later this year) both have about 400km of real range from proven, reliable platforms that are a delight to drive.
About the same price as a BMW 3 series of similar performance and specification
Well might manage same 0-60. However less range, crap to drive, poor build quality and quality of materials, ugly interior, very very expensive if you crash it.
Apart from that, yes similar I guess
There's car building experience and EV technology experience though - Tesla clearly still have issues with the former. Also, from what I've read, their technical infrastructure and processes are a shambles - if they've not improved on what's been leaked (regarding the dev processes, security processes etc.) then it seems more luck than judgement there's not been a major issue encountered already (like every car getting bricked by a dodgy update or a security vulnerability allowing remote control to some extent). The build quality of the cars is notoriously poor compared with modern major manufacturers. The one thing Tesla has is the technology and that advantage is fast disappearing. Pretty sure if the value of the company wasn't so over-inflated they'd have been acquired by a mainstream manufacturer long ago.
drive, poor build quality and quality of materials, ugly interior, very very expensive if you crash it.
Yup that describes BMWs.
Yawn.
38,900 PLUS 1,600 (lux tax)
= 40,500
WTF! Tesla have more experience than any other EV manufacturers in the West, followed by Nissan and Renault
Experience of what? Customer care? Mainstream manufacture at scale across multiple continents? They have one factory. Whilst I liked the 3 I sat in in the US, their Heathrow site is 200 m from work and frankly, the Mini showroom across the road looks more impressive.
I personally think they will be the MySpace and Yahoo of the electric vehicle world and will struggle with scale. When Toyota decide to do electric, with all their Hybrid experience, manufacturing excllence and locations, then the market will react.
38,900 PLUS 1,600 (lux tax)
= 40,500
Can you provide where this figure is from as I can't find it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but where are you getting this from?
crap to drive
Top Gear thought otherwise; they seemed to quite like the Tesla;
WTF! Tesla have more experience than any other EV manufacturers in the West, followed by Nissan and Renault. Things are progressing fast and it seems to me that Tesla, Nissan and Renault are still at the top of their game in their respective sectors
So what!! What has this got to do with the price of fish in Norway? The mainstream manufacturers have not been sat around with their fingers up their bums...they've been doing a proper job of developing and maturing the technology and will enter the market with matured technology equivalent or better than what's out thee at the moment. These are huge corporations with huge resources compared to Tesla and have decades of experience in building and bringing to market new cars which Tesla doesn't. Tesla hasn't really brought anything totally unique to the market, no technology the big corporations can't acquire or develop themselves or even create better technology. They're 'top of their game' but its a new game and Tesla are small fish in a big pond full of seasoned and experienced sharks. They don't stand a chance. The only thing protecting them from take over is their huge debt because they can't develop, bring to market or make cars for a profit.
There is a good video of some chap honing his Model 3 around the ring...it completely p's all over the usual run of the mill BMW 3 series cars and their like and is right up there with the faster performance cars. They are not crap to drive or slow by any measure you care to apply.
Drac, cars with a list price over £40k attract £320 a year tax for the first 5 years, on top of any CO2-based VED.
Drac, cars with a list price over £40k attract £320 a year tax for the first 5 years, on top of any CO2-based VED.
So not the Model 3 entry level.
Not actually heard of the VW ID stuff before, looks interesting.
The 60's camper van inspired EV looked ace, they also have said that they will bring something soon that will be well under £20k, but haven't said which model (to my knowledge), I'm assuming a city car. Not sure yet of the pricing and dimensions of the two that I mentioned above^ in the first reply
EDIT:rather my 2nd reply, ID Neo and crozz or something like that
For plug-in cars, the "list price" is before the plug-in car grant (£3500 for pure battery EVs) is applied.
Base Telsa Model 3 is £41550 (so does attract the extra tax), which then reduced by £3500 grant to £38050.
Ah! Thanks Simon_G that makes sense.
plus £850 delivery and paperwork = £38900
It's not particularly clear on the website.
have not been sat around with their fingers up their bums…they’ve been doing a proper job of developing and maturing the technology and will enter the market with matured technology equivalent or better than what’s out thee at the moment.
The Jaguar i-Pace, while a fine car in many other respects, has a much lower efficiency in terms of miles per battery capacity than anything Tesla makes. I'm not quite sure the evidence is there that they're about to swoop in and steal Tesla's lunch just yet.
Tesla aren’t in this to compete. Their own remit was to prove that electric vehicles can be viable alternative to ICE cars. They’ve done that, they’ve (together with Dieselgate) caused a paradigm shift in the auto industry.
I don’t think Tesla will cease to exist, but I can see them being bought once their share price starts to slide and thus becoming some other brands electric specific mark.
The Jaguar i-Pace, while a fine car in many other respects, has a much lower efficiency in terms of miles per battery capacity than anything Tesla makes.
Well it is an SUV rather than a family car.
Well it is an SUV rather than a family car.
So is the Model X, but that goes further on a smaller battery while still being a much bigger car...
Do it!!
I'm on my second model s and would wholeheartedly recommend them.
Regards the ipace vs model X on battery size and range, what are the relative numbers?
Just like with internal combustion engines the book number and real world number are usually different. Some manufacturers have small delta between stated and real world some have large deltas.
If the Jag's figures are in the ball park compared to Tesla's then I'd say its a very good attempt at their first EV car and clearly shows at least some of the established car companies have actually been developing the tech in the background. So while they may seem quiet on the EV car front at the moment I think they are close to matching Tesla and possibly even overtaking them in the not too distant future.
So is the Model X, but that goes further on a smaller battery while still being a much bigger car…
It does yes but it's also £16k more.
I think as someone above has already mentioned, once the major players feel they have maximised all of the revenue against their sunk costs in expensive engine management factories they will at least give Tesla a run for its money. I do think they have had it all their own way while the big players have been sweating their assets ahead of the inevitable.
And let's not forget the EV market is limited at the moment. Many people don't have an easy way to charge their car. No point in every manufacturer putting their cars on the market if no one is buying them. Better to develop in the background and launch a car when there is space in the market and the charging infrastructure has caught up too.
It does yes but it’s also £16k more.
And about the same amount less in the US to company buyers because of the way their tax laws favour heavier vehicles (I know it's crazy). The UK is a tiny market, Tesla is competetive where it needs to be.
A perhaps fairer comparison is the ipace versus the future Tesla Model Y, which in terms of load space and accomodation is closer.
I demo'd the Kia e-niro this week and it's a nicely built good car to drive. Range is between 220-280 miles and looking on it's log of journeys this seems a reality. I'd have bought one today but they have only got a demo and no cars to buy, current waiting time is 18 months. I've put a refundable deposit on one, in the meantime the Leaf with the 60kw battery could be the game changer. Personally I won't go tesla as they just aren't a reliable car, they are the JLR of the EV world 🙂
My neighbour has a long range Tesla Model X, the heater broke after a few months, which isn't too bad, but it took several months with his car at the Tesla dealers for Tesla to fix it. Definitely put me off...........
in the meantime the Leaf with the 60kw battery could be the game changer.
Look at it side on, it's just a heavy facelifted and arselifted 2011 with a bigger battery and a massive price hike. It doesn't even have proper battery management, their solution is software that throttles the charging when the battery overheats.
their solution is software that throttles the charging when the battery overheats.
So what's your better idea for charging a car with a 70kW charger in countries where the ambient temperature will be between 40 and 50°C in Summer. Even the 22kW charging Zoé sounds more like a couple of hand driers in a motorway services when it's over 30°C. You can't change the laws of physics - fast charge a battery and it gets hot. You could I suppose install a 5kW heatpump and a mass of supplementary cooling thus increasing the size and weight of the battery pack, compromising performance of the car and wasting a lot of energy. I think they have it about right.
Liquid cooling or fan cooling to manage the battery temp, what does the Zoe have? (sounds like maybe fan coolers). Every car I've looked at appears to have one or the other. Look up 'rapidgate'. many people think it's pretty poor having nothing and effectively only being able to do one rapid charge on a long motorway journey before the battery overheats, doesn't sound about right, to me.
I agree battery cooling can an issue with the Leaf in hot climates. The latest ones use similar active cooling fans to the Zoé so should be an improvement on the early ones. Frankly in the UK it's unlikely to be an issue except for a few hot days, maybe - does that justify all the extra weight and bulk? I think not, drive the car at legal speeds in the UK and it's just not going to be an issue. Visit Germany in a heat wave, drive flat out on the autobahn then fast charge and yes the charge rate will slow down. If that's a major issue for you then buy something with liquid cooling and pay somewhat more than the 37500e the Leaf+ sells for in France.
Edit: the cooling system wouldn't be 5kW, I'm confusing numbers with the Winter heating syetem on an EV I was reading about recently.
he Jaguar i-Pace, while a fine car in many other respects, has a much lower efficiency in terms of miles per battery capacity than anything Tesla makes. I’m not quite sure the evidence is there that they’re about to swoop in and steal Tesla’s lunch just yet.
Well though Jag make very good cars they have been struggling to keep pace with the mainstream manufacturers for some time, they're a relatively new company in terms of their more recent incarnation and trying (struggling) to play catch up with the mainstream competition as well as expand at a huge rate to offer the range of models their competition does...it's about market breadth as well as depth and Jag are a good 20 years or so down the track compared to Tesla's 5 or so years and have a lot more financial and industrial clout behind them. But actually from the reports I've read the iPace p's all over the equivalent Tesla...the quality is there and the x-factor in terms of style and class the Jag has that Tesla doesn't. The Tesla is a trendy and stylish (but ultimately disposable) Ikea sofa...the Jag is a hand crafted quality wing-backed leather sofa. One a fashion accessory - here today gone tomorrow, one a touch of class that will last and be desirable long after the trends have moved on. No comparison really and just demonstrates what is lacking in Tesla. But Jag on their own won't steal Tesla's lunch...the combined efforts of Jag, BMW, MB, VW, Ford, Vauxhall, Skoda, Seat, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Porsche etc.....you get what I mean...Tesla are only one small, inexperienced, unproven, disruptive company against a whole army of experienced companies that have form, can change and adapt and develop and deliver new technologies. It's not a case of them stealing Tesla's lunch...they already have the lunch and Tesla are trying to steal a few crumbs off the picnic blanket. In the long run Tesla doesn't stand a chance. Not a chance in hell. But right now they produce good EV cars and if I were buying an EV today a Tesla would be on the list. But in a couple of years time the probably wouldn't feature at all...unless they'd been bought out by VAG and had their quality issues sorted out and could be produced and sold for a profit.
The latest ones use similar active cooling fans to the Zoé so should be an improvement on the early ones
The rapidgate issue is with the 2018/19 Gen 2 leaf and they don't have an active battery management system ie liquid or fan.
By "latest ones" I was refering to Leaf + which is specified in my post with a price and is fan cooled with air taken from the A/C unit acording to the press. Where do you live, B.A.Nana, California, Saudi?
In France the issue with the Leaf is that the on-board charger is only 6kW. There are very few Chademo chargers but Type 2 with 13-22kW are everywhere, at least 10 within 10km of my home, the nearest Chademo I've seen is in the next town and has been out of order for at least 5 months.
In the long run Tesla doesn’t stand a chance.
You may be right, but a bit of me wonders whether this is exactly what mechanical hard drive manufacturers were saying about SSDs; they were massive companies and could easily pivot when needed to beat the upstarts... yet today, they've mostly all gone.
In the long run Tesla doesn’t stand a chance. Not a chance in hell.
really? someone better tell wall street...
Where do you live, B.A.Nana, California, Saudi?
The very first case of Rapidgate was reported by a Jonathan Porterfield who lives in Orkney and was delivering a latest 2018 Leaf from Leicester to Orkney. So he was driving past my house, yes.
I don't even know why I'm carrying on with this, all my opinion is that the Leaf+ isn't a game changing car, it was in 2011 however. IMO I don't think a facelift and a bigger battery warrants that title. eniro / kona could have been a game changer with the massive in=crease in range, but no one can bloody buy it.
So quoting the man in the video, after the second fast charge (by this time you've done about 750km) it knocks the charge rate down to 22kW so the charge time will then be an hour and thre quarters. A non problem then unless you are into driving for dangerously long periods without an hour and a half break. If you were a truck driver that would be a legal obligation.
I fail to see the problem unless you're a psycho-rigid dick from Hinkley. 😉 Are you like him? Up till now I've I've liked you because of your pseudo - in French Nana means attractive young woman and B.A. is short for "bonne action" (giving a helping hand).
Edit: and the Leaf+ plus has a fan and air-con cooled air - you'd buy a Leaf+ for long jounrneys and a standard Leaf for commuting, well I would anyhow.
B.A.Nana was an abrasive punk in a punk band called Crass 😉
So I see, most amusing
VW have announced details on the ID and it's a serious contender to wake up Tesla.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/volkswagen-id3-name-confirmed-for-golf-sized-ev