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So, first up I’ve not been called names so that’s a definite elevation in discussion 😉
And some nice robust push back and discussion. Thanks all (and I mean all).
So, again. Power, yeah google google.
My statement was more based on my direct experience with the local DNO in Scotland and various discussions over the years and cemented by various (MEP) industry articles and webinars. First up a ‘forum’ discussion with the DNO (from memory again, I couldn’t find my screenshots I thought I had) was talking about grid capacity, typical house ‘allowance’ and how these were changing in accordance with likely provision for a) EV charging and b) (AS)HP installations. I think the basic allowance (for diversity purposes from memory) used to be 4-6 kW but now the allowance is +3kW for EVC and 3-4kW for HP so now 10-12 kW/house. At that point the discussion veered of into 3 Phase electricity distribution required as being the norm…
Webinars, etc., (when looking at the decarbonisation of heating when hydrogen was still viewed as a viable option) identified that the biggest issue is the capacity of the gas grid was greater than the (spare?) electrical grid capacity. I don’t have certified figures to hand but something like electricity constant at <20GW but gas fluctuates up to ~120GW in winter (electricity 50GW/Gas 200GW) so ‘transferring heat demand from gas to electricity can add a significant capacity requirement. Even with HP CoP of 3 this could double the system demand. This is from the webinar screen shots, I don’t have a link for external purposes
And now add in EV charging…. I’m not just not making shit up here. There are industry wide concerns expressed here.
I also have some experience in EVCP provision and DNO application. If you want to find out the average cost of fast charger addition to petrol stations you can probably find out by searching the Planning portals. For BC fees I think they are around £.5million. I’m going to hazard an estimate that £200k of that is the infrastructure cost just to get electricity supply in (not the civils associated works as DNO will exclude those or give a separate quote that).
As of June 2023 in Scotland all new non-domestic developments with >10 parking spaces need to provide 10% of total spaces with EVCP’s (and infrastructure (cable ducts?) for the ‘ability’ for future extension of a further 40%. Congratulations building owners you are now a fuel supplier! This is why Charge Place Scotland, who has charge/payment facilities provision (and why LA’s are using them, who wants to bring in a dedicated team to cover this, costs too much...). And your destination EVCP were about £10k/(<8kW)unit and ‘fast’ (22kW?) £25k/unit… All of a sudden, car fuel delivery infrastructure is being paid for building owners…
I understand the reasoning behind it all but its a significant shift in infrastructure provision that isn’t funded by government. For schools, that’s straight out of the education capital budget… yup, EV might even be detrimental for your children’s education… Add in the 30% construction inflation the last couple years (Covid, Ukraine war, CoL) its a bit of a squeeze.
Personally I would renationalise Electricity Supply, roll it out as an infrastructure project.
Where there's a will... .
Most people are using fridges, freezers, routers, servers, lights ovens, hobs. In Ireland servers have overtaken domestic consumption:
Now there's a really significant new demand but the grid is still doing fine and steadily getting decarbonised
https://www.eirgrid.ie/grid/real-time-system-information
Here's a half full glass for you, Metalheart. You are clutching at plenty of straws to drink it with:
EV might even be detrimental for your children’s education
🙂
I've noticed the IECharge chargers I've been using are situated near grid transformers, no coincidence there. Many of the Superchargers are situated near the transformers in industrial zones, zones that have plenty of surplus capacity as their legacy businesses have become more energy efficient or gone under. I doubt the 12 Superchargers in ST André de Cubsac take as much juice as the Ford automatic gearbox plant used to.
Jap EVs have obligatory software that allows them to export to the grid if needs be, the new Renault 5 can do that too. Part of the storage solutions to cope with intermittent renewable supplies.
The glass is well over half full, cheer up , buy an EV if you really need a car and have a little faith.
Re. The EV’s are for the affluent:
1. Car cost, a quick google (RAC website) says Nissan Leaf £26k, mid range £28-50k the upwards. My last vehicle (Berlingo van) was <£15k, taxed and insured on the road (albeit pre-reg, but brand new, single digit miles on the odo). Car before that Skoda Roomster (£11.5k pre-reg) that’s my last 10+ years vehicle purchase. I get ICE car costs have skyrocketed too, but it ain’t cheap…
2. Home charging, already covered by others. I don’t own my house (I rent) am I going to ‘invest’ in a charger? Will my landlord let me? And I’m in a house. Flatted accommodation with on street parking… social housing, etc. That’s what I mean. Drop your middle class privilege and its not so rosy…
Additionally in 4.5 years of owning my van I’ve done less that 28k miles. It doesn’t justify replacement at this point in time. Embodied carbon and all that…
Of course EV is much better in use than fossil fuels but you need to do the full and transparent LCA (utilising the carbon factors applicable to the country of manufacture… Good luck finding EPD’s for all your components though…
LCA = life cycle assessment. For embodied carbon: LCA of the global warming potential in kgCO2e of the asset throughout its life cycle (A, B1-B5, C, i.e. Product/manfucature/construction, in use & operation, end of life). This is the definition that I missed for the PV statement previously. The report linked previously on PV LCA points why that could be valid esp when you consider that in electricity system carbon intensity (from the national grid website!) has a 65.8% decrease from 2013 - 2020 (529 gCO2/kWh in 2013 to 181 gCO2/kWh in 2020). Rate of return diminishes year on year as a result.
I’m not saying valid arguments for their can’t be made but don’t forget about embodied carbon and that its often just an offset.
And if you think embodied carbon won’t effect you, just wait for Part Z of the building regulations… 😀 (source MBS August edition)
And I have been in (even driven) EV’s.
I’ve a mate with a Tesla… I hate it, over engineered saturated in embodied carbon for no reason other its cool bro (electric door handles?!?). The controls are offset into a large tablet with shite all over the screen apart from what you need…
The Leaf I was in last week was better though! Even though it took me 5-10 minutes to work out how to detach the charging cable… (it was a car club vehicle). As others have pointed out, once you know how to use the charging you know 🙂
And whilst digging out the WLC Carbon stuff I remembered about a commercial insurer guidance thing on ‘Electric Vehicles and Managing the Risks….”
Modern vehicles contain a significant amount of combustible materials which increase the risk of spread of fire to the buildings they are parked next to…
Lithium-ion batteries creaste serious challenges for firefighting, once they are on fire a substantial volume of water is required to extinguish…
Floods - remember photos of that Tesla charging station under water?
Malicious damage… are they maintained?
Same insurer insists any charging points are >10m from a building you want insured… see RISCAuthority RC59 for details…
And just for fun, lets remember the Felicity Ace. $155 millions lost, alledged to a Porsche EV battery… No tears from me on the VAG losses….
You know there are solutions to all that.
As for building regs, the French RT 2020 is well up ther in terms of insulation and I've had no trouble meeting requirements with low-embedded carbon materials in my build.
The insulation materials: wood fibre panels which are a by-production of the local forestry exploitation. Cotton/hemp/lin insulation panels which are from recycled clothing and textile industry waste. The wood charpente, a carbon sink which will store carbon for as long as the building stands. Reused roofing tiles bought for 50cents each. Sure there's some concrete and steel because Euro 8 seismic regs apply locally, not an issue in the quantities used in the build. Heating system, no. A/C not yet.
You seem to get a kick out of this easily dismissed anti-EV scaremongering, Metalheart. Just wait... the cretaceous is only a few decades of inaction away.
Edit: just read back through the EV thread, Metalheart, we've already done all those when Squirrelking was on an anti-EV trip. He's probably bought one by now. 🙂
You really don’t get it do you, I’m not ‘anti EV’, I’m just not buying one atm as it doesn’t add up. You need to wake up to the full LCA implications and global warming potential. It’s ****ing changed fast in the last 5 years… It strikes me you don’t really appreciate the implication of what net zero actually means… and don’t forget, refrigerent (HFC’s yikes!) leaks are a (the?) major source of GWP/ carbon in building services, keep digging 🙂
I have to deal with the consequences of implementing EVCP infrastructure, if someone is going to pay for that (and its not out of the capital build budget) I’m a lot happier. What you rather spend £100+k on, school equipment/building/etc., or for transportation fuelling? It’s not free, its being paid for from cash strapped local government that has to make costs elsewhere (not just for EVCP of course). Who then has to look after and maintain it, another additional burden/cost.
You are correct about the ‘no coincidence’ about major transformer location… $$$$ if you don’t… that’s the £200k I was talking about for petrol station fast EVCP costs… for a local transformer for the electricity supply… closer to the source, cheaper it gets… (assuming there is the existing spare capacity of course). I’ve seen quotes for multi £100ks for an end of line new development cost for a<140kVA 3ph supply…. (Not for EVCP…).
And as for Building Regs (Scotland 2022), If you compare what is used for the NCM Notional Building (and allow repeating and non repeating thermal bridging) you are well into Passivhaus Classic territory for everything bar windows/glazing (albeit air tightness levels are worse which makes a big difference…)
I read that as "I'm not anti-EV but... ."
A typical ICE not only has all the embedded carbon of an EV but then turns around 8 tonnes of fuel into CO2 and stuff poisonous to humans. Understand that and the rest of your somewhat disjointed sound bites anti-EV stuff don't really amount to much. How buying an EV prevents a school being built you'll have to explain in some detail when 5p on diesel would give schools the budget they've been dreaming of and perhaps reduce the air polution around schools a fraction.
Average UK car weight 1947kg - 450kg more tha my Zoé and more than a Model 3 long range.
How buying an EV prevents a school being built you’ll have to explain
It doesn’t, I never said that. You’re over inventive imagine dream it up out of nothing. But mandatory EV charging infrastructure (the kit, cables/duct, increased electricity supply requirements, protection bollards, ALL THAT EXTRA ****ING PAINT FOR EV CHARGING SYMBOLS! 😉 ) has to be paid for somehow. In local government you HAVE to rob Peter to pay Paul, that’s the ****ing mess that we are in the UK, multiple councils were reporting of being on the brink of bankruptcy about a year ago (doubt 4 weeks has sorted that problem out). So that’s less money for something else…
Let’s add 5p/kWH to pay for it instead… (I’m with you on increased tax on diesel/petrol, just not for paying for EV charging infrastructure). EVC infrastructure either needs to a government lead (and tax funded) operation or you leave to wholly to the ‘market’ to provide (depending on your politics).
We are not all as obviously affluent and wealthy as you are…
And once you understand that replacement of all ICE with EV is not the answer (not least because of all the additional EC and the associated harm with that) and that whatever does ultimately replace ICE should have a significantly reduced EC (start by stopping cars getting BIGGER) you’ll be on the path to enlightenment.
Over consumption is still over consumption regardless (I know you’ve a leaf…. Mind yer halo doesn’t slip and trip you up now).
I read that as “I’m not anti-EV but… .”
And I read your responses as ‘willy waving’ and ‘virtue signalling’. So lets not go there, eh?
What you rather spend £100+k on, school equipment/building/etc.,
So you did.
We are not all as obviously affluent and wealthy as you are…
Whilst not wishing to get personal but as you started it - I'd like to bet you are. If not you are seriously underselling the amazing credentials you keep telling us about.
Well that's enough of giving you rope for one evening, sleep tight in your exhaust fume fug.
One day you'll own an EV and love it, but probably get frustrated with the unreliable charge infrastructure, a wallet full of cards, a phone full of costly apps, random opaque prices... . One exception, the Telsa Supercharger network just works and at reasonable prices.
I’d like to bet you are. If not you are seriously underselling the amazing credentials you keep telling us about.
I work in the public sector, that has been subjected to 14 years of compounded ‘austerity’ cuts, damn right I’m underselling… in private practice I’d probably be ~£20k/annum better off (and an EV company car to boot! Just like my Tesla driving mate…).
However, I’ve never claimed specific expertise (we hate experts in the UK don’t you know). But I’ve come across a lot of stuff in my career and try and keep myself professionally educated and up to date. You will be astonished to hear that construction embodied carbon is one of my current ‘research’ topics (in pursuit of net zero).
So you did.
Do you know how many millions a school costs these days? But there’s £100k less of something…. I deliberately didn’t go emotive and say ‘books/computers’ as that’s a different budget… (OPEX vs CAPEX).
One exception, the Telsa Supercharger network just works and at reasonable prices.
The ‘market’ has actually provided for once… (but I still detest Musk). I’m waiting for someone to decide that its a legitimate target for our English patriots (TM)… wouldn’t that be ironic (hey, there’s always causalities in a ‘civil war’ elon )
"Net zero" is a political sound bite that usually demonstrates that the user is ignorant of what both "net" and "zero" really mean. People who do understand know it isn't an attainable goal and likely to mislead - which seems to be the intention of those using it..
Before man came along and started messing the Earth wavered around "net zero". Volcanic emissions were matched over the time scale of millions of years by carbon sinks - mainly carbon rich sediments- limestone, coal and oil. We're emitting orders of magnitude higher CO2 than volcanic emissions, the Earth can't mop up even a few percent of what we're emitting even with all of its natural carbon sinks intact.
We've drasticaly reduced those carbon sinks over the last few thousand years with the deforestation of the landmasses. Europe used to be mainly forest. So even if we burnt no fossil fuels CO2 would be above what it was before man started messing. So zero needs to be less than zero unless we give up agriculture.
Then burning fossil fuels, there is no concrete plan in any "net zero" declaration that stops oil, coal and gas. And if you don't you can't get net zero. The carbon storage schemes are laughably insignificant (they'll never match the methane leaks from old wells) and there are ever more proven reserves of oil and gas to convert to CO2 that will be around for thousands of years.
Have a look at the Hawaii CO2 graph. 426ppm the last time I looked, that's 50% higher than pre industrial. It takes us back to geological time periods in which life wouldn't have been very comfortable on much of the planet even if we hadn't deforested much of it. Where we're heading is very grim indeed and will be grimmer with each additional ppm of CO2.
A geologist.
Well this has just put me off. Again. If I can't roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the "tank" I don't want to know. We have finally , I believe , got to the point where one type of USB cable is being rolled out. Surely we could do the same with EV chargers. Not allow any to be built unless they are identical. Stuff the manufactures. It's all Apple v Android or Windows anyway.
Again. If I can’t roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the “tank
You can in England at any DC fast charger, or at least that is how it's always worked for me when I've used public chargers, I've not had a problem.
Surely we could do the same with EV chargers.
Every new EV for sale (except for 3 specific models) in the UK uses the same charging port, CCS which is for DC rapid charging and, as part of it’s design, incorporates a Type 2 Mennekes AC charging port.
The legacy ChaDeMo charging connector is only used on Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf and,weirdly, one new Lexus. it was also used in older Japanese EV’s or Plug in Hybrids.. It’s the Betamax of charging and only exists to service these specific cars. I’ve never seen a stand-alone ChakaDeMus charger. There’s always a CCS/ Type 2 charger alongside it.
Charging connectors in the UK are as close as it’s possible to get to being universal between models.
It's this thread a really long winded way for metalheart to simply say "an EV doesn't suit my needs right now, so I'm not getting one"?
I mean... I've literally ZERO need or use for a pickup truck. I've nothing to carry in one, and it'll be too big and cumbersome. But... I'm very happy for Bob-the-builder to have one, and understand why it works for them... I'm not telling my landscaper mate that his pickup is useless and slow..cos it works for him....
Anyway...
Back to charging...
Like a lot of people things, if it's new to you, it'll seem an bit daunting. Like how filling up her car for the first time worried my step daughter...I had to help her with it..show her how to pay at pump...use the right fuel etc...
She only had cash...ah... So pay at pump WON'T work for her...fine..pay at the kiosk (which, as I think about it...those who ONLY use cash at fuel pumps won't be able to use the many 'card only' pumps at lots of ASDA stores..)
I've yet to use my electroverse card, but think that'll make things even easier in the continent..
DrP
Thanks DrP, that genuine made me laugh 😀 Especially because it does hit the nail on the head (as in it doesn’t make sense for me at sense). So apologies for that.
Of course, its not all about me… the point that I guess I was trying to make (badly, obvs) is that we have a planet of finite resources that is headed to wrack and ruin. EV’s are being held as being a solution but they don’t currently address their total global warming potential due to lack of focus on reduction of the embodied carbon (but this isn’t singular to the EV industry, we need to reduce the EC for everything and now!). We should be simplifying and reducing but instead (like all vehicles) they are getting larger and lardier. In looking up my notes for the previous answer I came across a great illustration of an ICE motor disassembled next an EV motor showing just how stark the difference is (in the EV favour). If only they would do that the rest of the vehicle…
And I have no issue acknowledging the significant local benefits of zero direct emissions transport.
But, as evidenced by the OP, the charging infrastructure needs to properly thought through, planned and funded. Ironically, in a very, very small (tiny) way, I personally have helped nudge towards this (locally).
Anyways, I can take a hint so I’ll bow out now.
If I can’t roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the “tank” I don’t want to know.
That is literally how it works at pretty much every rapid charger in the country (if you have a Tesla it’s even easier as you just plug in and the payment is automatic).
The legacy ChaDeMo charging connector is only used on Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf and,weirdly, one new Lexus. it was also used in older Japanese EV’s or Plug in Hybrids.
The Zoe has always had a type 2 and the 52kWh version a CCS option.
Older French EVs had a type 3 and older Japanese a type 1 or Chademo
The problem with doing what you suggest Flaperon is that you'll pay 83p to £1.20 a kWh for the privilege. It's as if the cost of petrol paid as you suggest with a credit card were £2.50. You need an app or a RFID car to get a lower price.
The problem with doing what you suggest Flaperon is that you’ll pay 83p to £1.20 a kWh for the privilege
Which major charging network (in the uk) is charging £1.20 per kwh - The most I have seen is about 85p when using a credit card, which typically reduces by about 10%-20% when you pay a monthly subscription, the higher the subscription fee the higher the reductions . BTW 85p is still too high IMO, but I think its starting to come down slowly now.
I note that Ionity in the EU charges 69 cents per kwh with no subscription, which is getting more reasonable, and it reduces to 49 cents on their cheapest subscription
Edit : just checked Ionity in the uk is 74p per kwh without a subscription, and 53p on their cheapest subscription.
No idea, I clicked the purple icons on the Chargemap app then clicked on price and how to pay. I didn't take much interest in who was asking £1.20 I just clicked the next one.
The Ionity chargers I clicked in the EU were more than than 69cents. You can't talk about an EU price because it varies so much from country to country because leccy costs much more in Germany than say France.
Tesla was the cheapest in Holland at 29 or 32cents.
IECharge at 30 cents (though it actually only charged us 25cents) in France followed by Tesla at 33, 45 and 50cents depending on location and the time of day.
Tesla was the cheapest in Germany at 53cents at the times we were charging.
Tesla was the cheapest we used in the UK 44p or 55p depending on the time of day. The others we used were about 85p as you say but we really did drive past one at £1.20.
Edit: the subscriptions thing is a rip off. Again would the population/government tolerate petrol stations charging a subscrition to get the normal price and a 50% premium without the subscription?
3 years EV driving here and I've only ever had one issue charging.
Drove Manchester to Newcastle, had around an hours window to charge the car backup for the drive back the next day but really struggled. either all full, too slow or broke. Not really the world ending issue some make it out to be, frustrating yes but I managed.
like it or not they are going to be the future for most people.
1. Car cost, a quick google (RAC website) says Nissan Leaf £26k, mid range £28-50k the upwards. My last vehicle (Berlingo van) was <£15k, taxed and insured on the road (albeit pre-reg, but brand new, single digit miles on the odo). Car before that Skoda Roomster (£11.5k pre-reg) that’s my last 10+ years vehicle purchase. I get ICE car costs have skyrocketed too, but it ain’t cheap…
So you've taken the current RRP for an EV and compared it to two deals you got (at some point in the past).
In fact the Skoda went out of production 9 YEARS AGO and a base Berlingo van is now £23k RRP.
Is there a simple system in place for those lucky people who own a roof and an electric vehicle.
You fit some panels and export all the energy to the grid from say 0600 till 2100. No battery at all .
Then from 2100 you get the electricity back for free. To pour into the car battery.
If you need more than the panels have generated you pay a few pence per kWh as it's off peak .
If you use less than the panels have generated to fill up the car you get a few pence per kWh credit from the energy co.
Given the current 7p feed in tarif is lower than the 10p night tarif it's best just to charge the car when your panels are producing.
Going to France next year and picking up an electric hire car - can I / should I be looking to set up the Tesla app for charging (it's unlikely to be a Tesla car) or just winging it as a one- or two- off? The car is cheaper than an equivalent ICE so provided its cheaper than traditional fuels to fill up I'll be ahead.
Download the Tesla app and check if there are conveniently placed open-to-all Superchargers, teaandbiscuits (hte app is free and you only need to enter a credit card when yu want to charge - no point paying for a monthly subscription for a few charges). There are plenty of other chargers but except them to be slower, less reliable, more expensive and more complicated to use.
Will do, thanks!
EDIT:
Closest one is this:
But presumably its worth going to:
Edukator
Free Member
Given the current 7p feed in tarif is lower than the 10p night tarif it’s best just to charge the car when your panels are producing
Wow. Some people actually drive to work and aren't at home when the panels are producing. My very simple idea was to utilise PV production during the day , and use electricity overnight when most cars are parked up at home and there is supply supply
The first one is grey so Teslas only, but the second one is red so any car, teaandbiscuits.
My very simple idea was to utilise PV production during the day , and use electricity overnight when most cars are parked up at home
Sounds like Intelligent Octoous Go which is an EV specific tarrif coupled with their Octopus Outgoing tarrif. On IOG it's 7p/kwh minimum import rate (applies to car charging and all other consumption) and their standard outgoing tarrif pays 15p/kwh. So even allowing for inverter/battery losses it probably still pays to export solar during tha day and then charge car/house at night.
The first one is grey so Teslas only, but the second one is red so any car, teaandbiscuits.
Thank you!
TF1 news drove three cars three hundred and something kms across northern France yesterday. A plug-in petrol hybrid, an ID4 and a diesel. All had to respect speed limits. The verdict:
Diesel: fastest but most pollution and CO2
Hybrid: 10 minutes slower as driver was using the car's ability to save fuel. Less pollution and CO2
Electric: 1h30 slower. One charge needed. First charger IECharge: the charger was dead, he phoned the help line and they confirmed it was dead. Second charger gave a 5h+ recharge time so he moved on (it's not uncommon to find 22kW chargers that only give 7 or 150kW chargers that only give 25). Third charger was out of order. Fourth charger worked. No local pollution and least CO2
That's fairly typical of what to expect in France at present apart from open-to-public Superchargers that just work. That's why EVs are still marginal.
AC charges are really only suitable as destination chargers, trying to use them part way through a journey is a fools errand.
If I can’t roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the “tank
This is what I do, except it takes me longer than 10 minutes because my car is old and slow.
Remember that this forum is populated by nerds who love fannying about and talking about fannying about. But in reality, all I ever do is plug in at home and walk away; on a long trip I go where the car tells me to, plug into the standard cable and tap my bank card as you say. It works.
And I'd just like to underline the fact that my EV costs us a tenth as much per mile as a diesel would do in everyday driving. Imagine pulling up to a diesel pump, filling up and only paying £8. You'd be chuffed to bits, and I'm pretty sure you'd go out of your way to go back to any filling station selling diesel for 14p a litre. But I don't even have to do that - it's as if someone comes to my house every night and fills my car AND only charges me 14p a litre.
Going to France next year and picking up an electric hire car
I just hired an EV for the first time. I knew there were fast chargers at my destination. After 20 minutes trying to work out how to plug the CCS connector in (and some googling) it turns out fast charging is only an option on Renault Zoe, and it was a blanking panel. Luckily there was a public AC charger a few KM away.
In the end, it was pretty straight-forward but I was surprised how difficult/confusing it was the first time, and without a smartphone/data roaming and plenty of time I would have been screwed. Bear in mind ICE cars have a label inside the fuel cap telling you the fuel to use, and the car rental companies still often add a sticker outside reminding you.
The thing is @ab1970 now you know how to top up it’s straightforward.Typically the information is available before hand so you could have done a bit of research.
I say that as someone who has an EV and went through the learning curve. I had no idea how to set mine up, set the apps up and what charging to do. My first long trip was a bit of a disaster. But that was on me not having done any research…just expecting plug and play to be nice and simple….( it is now that I know how, but it is definitely a step change from petrol or diesel….and I’m a bit of a Luddite so that didn’t help!!)
Typically the information is available before hand so you could have done a bit of research
I rent cars pretty often. I have never needed to confirm the factory-fit options before-hand with an ICE car. I was collecting the car out-of-hours also. I note the advice given to @teaandbiscuits was 'use a super-charger', not 'check you are hiring a car that can use a super-charger'.
@w00dster I am not sure why your first long trip was a disaster, but I disagree that it was on you. EV technology is sufficiently mature that it's reasonable to expect it to 'just work'.
EV costs us a tenth as much per mile as a diesel would do in everyday driving.
Enthusiastic as I am about EVs I like to see your sums on that.
Used locally my Zoe uses about 12kWh/100km. Add charging losses of 10% and that's 13.2KWh/100km and with leccy at 25e cents/kWh that's 3.3e/100km.
The equivalent diesel Clio uses around 4.5l/100km in similar driving. Diesel is 1.648e/l at the local service station so 7.42e/100km
So charging at home the EV is just under half price on a normal electricity tarif but if you charge a lot at home at night, a night tarif may be worth it (it isn't for me, the corresponding day tarif is punitive and I don't charge enough at home to make the higher standing charge and night tarif worthwhile). So lets look at night tarifs:
To be a tenth of the price electricty would have to be under 6 cents or under 5p/kWh in your money. Intelligent Octopus as promoted by members of this forum is 7.5p and that means paying more for your leccy in the day which may or may not be worth it depending on how much you charge at home.
Leave home and my experience in the UK seems typical: 45-83p/kWh if you hunt out the cheapest chargers on an app. So a tad cheaper than diesel at best but usually a bit more.
I reckon from a fifth of the price of diesel to double the cost of diesel depending on how and where you charge is more realistic.
My car has a 77kwh battery at 7.5p per kwh means a full charge would cost £5.78. That will give me a range if 300-ish miles on that full charge so just under 2p per mile.
My previous diesel Mitsubishi Outlander, an equivalent sized vehicle with substantially less power returned about 35 Mpg. A gallon of diesel currently costs £6.81 on average in Scotland according to Allstar.
Just over 19p per mile. So about 10 times as much.
I suggest that an Outlanlander isn't a fair comparison with your current car, perchy, and an Audi E-Tron SUV would be more realisictic - that would rougly double your leccy consumption.
It’s a perfectly fair comparison.
It’s the car I had versus the car I now have, a Genesis GV60. Same size, more or less driven on all the same journeys to service the same lifestyle over long enough periods to make accurate costings.
What’s not fair about it?
Well try driving both off road and get back to me. One is an off-road vehicle with off road capacity and the other isn't.
A fairer comparison would be a diesel returning 50mpg.
my numbers are pretty close to you also PP, with an i4 on Octopus home charging I am also just under 2p a mile, my previous Audi Q5 diesel would typically do about 480 miles of my regular mixed driving on an £85 fill up from empty, so about 18p per mile.
Molgrips original statement that you queried:
And I’d just like to underline the fact that my EV costs us a tenth as much per mile as a diesel would do in everyday driving
my Ev: Check
a tenth: check
a diesel : my diesel, so check
everyday driving : not offroad, not in 4wd . Check
You could produce a million different combinations to prove or disprove the claim but this is the only I can comment on with authority and I find it proven
Again a Q5 is a gross fuel greedy thing and an i4 is a sleek performance thing. Apples and pears.
Let's compare vaguely comparable things like my original Zoe and Clio comparison.
I'm into EVs, owned and used for seven years but I'm not into making misleading claims, comparing apples with pears or ignoring how crap the charge network is (Superchargers excepted). If you want future EV owners reading this to be satisfied when they buy they need honest advice based on real world experiences.
Yes EVs are great, just don't expect free leccy, super cheap leccy, chargers to be easy to use or even work at all in many cases. Go in eyes open, don't run the battery down to under 10% at the last charger for 50kms becuase sod's law says it won't work, and expect to have a phone full of apps if you venture far enough to need a public charger.
Enthusiastic as I am about EVs I like to see your sums on that.
Well, my wife's commute has some start/stop driving, some motorway and some dual carriageway with roundabouts. From experience I'm guessing it would be around 45mpg in a typical diesel. We average 5.0 miles per kWh in the Ioniq. At home we pay 7p per kWh.
That makes it 1.54p per mile with 10% losses. A diesel would return 14.7p per mile given current prices. Some diesels would be more efficient, all EVs would be less, but that's my maths. You can adjust as.you wish.
expect to have a phone full of apps if you venture far enough to need a public charger
No, don't, unless you're in France. UK drivers can rely on debit cards and a CPS card.
Just a thought regarding the pollution aspect of liquid fuel powered cars. If we, as a country or world stopped using so much electricity for pointless luxuries, would it match the CO2 etc savings for electric cars? Even typing this I have wasted resources as does charging a phone, playing electronic games, running a telly or an ebike. How about the environmental costs attached to new cars when we could keep old ones going? Maybe ban the sales of new cars sort of thing. This sort of thing is never mentioned as it needs a few hard truths looking at. Hmmmm
We're at about 2.9p per mile in our very inefficient ( for an ev) merc eqc as an average over the last 5000 miles.
It's rediculously cheap per mile compared to the diesel vw tiguan that we had before it, but probably not a tenth of the cost. Think the vw worked out around 16p per mile assuming diesel was 1.45 per litre.
If we, as a country or world stopped using so much electricity for pointless luxuries
This is a great idea but the problem is that billions of people's livelihoods are based on making and selling those pointless luxuries, because our entire global society is based on it. If we all stopped over-consuming overnight there would be the mother of all global economic catastrophies. We just don't know what to do about that. Large scale change towards much lower material standard of living is currently impossible without coercion.
That's why I believe technology (along with as much moderation as we can get people to accept) is our only hope and it's touch and go wether or not it will be quick enough.
Could people quoting the home charging cost factor in the extra they are paying for day time electricity and the extra standing charge please because if you do that it really isn't 7.5p. Work out how much extra you paid for daytime on the last bill, add that to the night time EV bill, add the extra standing change then divide the total by the EV kWhs on the bill. That'll give you the real cost per kWh for your EV charging.
No-one has taken on board the charging losses using the on-board charger which will be high. I added 10% for my calculation but in most cases home charging is AC and it is much worse than that. The Zoé loses about 10% for DC charging and AC much worse according to my back of envelope calculations especially if I charge when it's 35°C and the heat pump runs a lot, I venture 20%. Anyhow:
No extra cost to my standing charge. I moved of a standard tariff to an EV tariff so get cheap power overnight so also reduce my dishwasher/washing machine etc cost too so save even more than just the EV cost so technically my saving are even bigger! Not less. However I do have a home charger which will pay for itself in the first year of ownership.
How much are your daytime and night rates, andy? And the standard non-variable rate from the same company?
For my postcode
Octoous Flexible (standard variable rate)
Standing charge 61.27p
Electricity 22.49p/kwh
IOG
Standing charge 61.27p
Cheap rate 7p/kwh
Standard rate 23.71p/kwh
So zero penalty in the standing charge, and a 1.22p/kwh levy on daytime usage - though your charge window may also cover peak evening usage..
That's excellent, thepurist.
To clarify you talk about a peak evening rate. If that's higher what is it?
EDF standard rate here is 25cents. With a dual tarif night is 16cents and day 30cents. Standing charge is higher and I'd pay a penalty as I'm also a PV producer. Not worth it when I've charged more away from home than at home this year. My car use would have to be over a third of my leccy bill for it to pay and it isn't.
My total household power cost is £18 a week for a family of 4. That includes car charging and the home use. My fuel cost was on average £60 a week. This is 70 mile round trip commute and day to day running family around. When I do my long trip once a month the saving is even more.
My EV is an Audi SUV (Quattro but it’s never been taken offroad). My ICE was a Cupra hatchback, 2 wheel drive and never taken off road.
I don’t break the cost down to an individual level, I just know that my ICE fuel bill has dropped from a minimum of £300 a month to a maximum of £100 for all my electricity usage.
To clarify you talk about a peak evening rate. If that’s higher what is it?
No I was referring to peak evening usage when most cooking etc happens, there are only two rates.
To clarify you talk about a peak evening rate. If that’s higher what is it?
There isn't a peak evening rate. It's a smart tariff which means you need a car or charger that is "smart" i.e. it has an API that Octopus can use to start and stop charging at random points. They advise you to keep your car plugged in whenever you are home, so that they can use surplus energy for.your car at any time, even during the day. If this happens and the car is charging then your whole house gets the cheap rate even at peak times. I think this is what thepurist means.
If you can schedule your washing machine or dishwasher for the off peak period then you also get those at the cheap rate. I use the cheap rate to heat hot water too. This saving may equal the cost of your car's fuel so your mileage could be effectively free.
So genuinely cheap charging with minimal impact on the day rate. Say 8.5p including compensation for the day rate if your car charging is half your electricity use and you don't use the cheap rate to save on anything else. Taking into account AC charging losses you can expect on a 7kW AC charge that's about 10p/kWh for kWhs in the car. On that basis those claiming one tenth of the cost are actually getting a seventh of the cost - which is still very good and more realistic, I still reckon a fifth with a genuinely comparable car. 🙂
For me (Ireland) the standard variable is about 35c and this is what I used to pay all day/everyday and now I just pay this 8am-11pm, 11pm-8am is 17c with 2am-4am just 10c. I don’t have the standing charge to hand.
my basic maths, if I did it right, gave me 2c per km as 99% of my charging is done @ 10c. My diesel worked out at about 11c per km with about 45mpg+ and €1.75 a litre.
Our monthly electric bill (inc standing charge)on intelligent octopus is about a fiver a month cheaper including Charging the car, than our previous monthly electric bill was on shell energy with no car charging.
Due to shifting washing machine and dish washer into the off peak hours plus the whole house getting electric at 7p whenever the car is charging outside the off peak hours.
Now that the per kwh costs have come down across the board, I think my currently monthly costs with the car are about the same as the monthly costs I would be paying without the car on a standard tarrif.
Changing to an EV would save me about £1100pa in fuel but cost me about £8k to upgrade my car & install a charger, so changing from a fully paid for economical diesel car doesn't add up at the moment. Might work for those on leases, PCP deals or if you are changing car anyway but my car is easily good for another 75k / 6yrs.
With solar and batteries it's even better, from pretty much everything but 3 months over winter the house runs off 7.5p/kwh rate (charge the batteries overnight) and any generation is sold to the grid at 15p/kWh. Shift dishwasher and washing machine use to overnight too. Electricity including running the car (and standing charge) is a net income.
Car is averaging just under 4miles/kWh so just under 2p/mile except the few occasions when it was on motorway fast chargers but comparable diesel is also vastly more expensive there too. ID4 so comparable sized ICE is doing ~ 45mpg and diesel here is ~ 155p/L so ev is getting on 1/8th of the cost/mile for fuel. Outside of work use I've charged away from home maybe 10-15 times in 2.5 years so almost irrelevant.
This saving may equal the cost of your car’s fuel so your mileage could be effectively free.
Agreed...
I feel like I'm being paid to drive sometimes! I have been reading up, and the polestar SHOULD be able to do v2h..in fact a company has got it working (google for the article... I can't switch around screens on the phone!)..
That would be amazing... Fill up overnight at cheap rate... Discharge the car in the day.
Would mean a new wall charger though..
DrP
With solar and batteries it’s even better, from pretty much everything but 3 months over winter the house runs off 7.5p/kwh rate (charge the batteries overnight) and any generation is sold to the grid at 15p/kWh.
Id be interested to see your calculations, since when I’ve looked into getting a battery the cost per kWh storage never made sense. The irony is that I have a huge battery sitting on my driveway…
Japanese EVs and the new Renault 5 allow selling back to the grid but the the tarif system here in France don't make it worthwhile. Especially when you take into account the cost of the battery deterioration it wil cause.
It will allow going off-grid and using the car to store PV production in addition to the house battery. If you start getting low on leccy top up at a public charger. I only know one person who is off-grid and interested though.
I can honestly say that in over >45k miles of an EV there's been 3-4 instances of range anxiety or charger problems. Really small issue (for me) compared to the thoughts of most non EV drivers. I think it is very journey/location specific and it matches my 90-95% charge at home and 10-5% rapid chargers that a readily available on my usual longer routes. As I said v person-specific though as a mate has had a problematic time and is going back to ICE.
I'm about to experience Dragon Charging in W Wales on a camping trip and given their rather contradictory app/website information about using rfid cards I've not got high hopes.
I’m about to experience Dragon Charging in W Wales on a camping trip and given their rather contradictory app/website information about using rfid cards I’ve not got high hopes.
My folks live in Pembrokeshire, most of my away from home charging has been there and they are all Dragon. Using the app is easy, chargers in lots of places and (Usually) fairly quiet. Pembrokeshire is an easy place to EV, dunno about wider west Wales.
Quick question for the experts.
As I mainly charge at home I am new to all this charging at public chargers whilst visiting my mum in Scotland. So far I have had no issues, however, yesterday I tried to charge at a 22kw AC charger while we went shopping (mainly to avoid paying for parking). There were 4 charging units each with a plug on either side. Does this mean 8 cars or 4 cars can charge at once, can only one car use a charging point at a time or can 2 (one left hand side and one right)? There was one car at each point charging and my car wouldn’t connect to the charger point on the other side at the 2 stations I tried. The CPS app said there was 4/4 chargers available and 1/2 sockets in use at each charger so I thought this meant 2 cars could charge per station (but then why did it not say 4/8 available)? Is this wrong, if only 1 car can charge at a time then the app is misleading saying 4/4 available (as none were so should show 0/4 available) but if 2 can charge at a time then I don’t know why mine wouldn’t connect? I gave up and used a different location that was empty.
8x22kw would mean all of them work at once. Its possible they would half to 11kw if using the same post, but as 99% of EVs only change at 7kw on AC it wouldn't matter anyway.
Did you get the sequence right, andy4d? DC chargers are often plug in then launch the charge before the car times out. With AC Type 2 very often the last thing you do is plug in the car - it's often select which side of the charger first on either the charger or the app, then use RFID card or app to pay then plug in - but not always. They drive me nuts.
TBH I am not too sure if I did the right sequence. I ‘think’ I did but probably didn’t. CPS say plug into unit, tap card, plug into car and away you go, this worked at the other station. And 8 cars should have been able to charge then, 2 per unit?
Could people quoting the home charging cost factor in the extra they are paying for day time electricity and the extra standing charge please because if you do that it really isn’t 7.5p.
I'm on Agile Octopus Dec 23 tariff and currently achieving roughly 8p/kWh charging the car and 14p/kWh running the house. Pretty certain The daily standing charge was the same as standard tariff or very similar and in Yorkshire the standard leccy rate July-sept is 21.35p/kwh (may -june was about 23p/kWh). So I'm quids in all round.
CPS AC posts usually charge from both sockets. Like Edukator saya did you use the correct sequence? For CPS AC posts you activate the post with the RFID or app then plug the car in.
Just driven from Manchester to Cornwall. The first stop was at Gloucester Services where there was a set of tesla chargers available to anyone, plus a set of none tesla chargers. The tesla chargers were 4p per kwh cheaper than the none tesla chargers, but it seems that nobody with a none tesla knew that the tesla chargers were open to all. We used the tesla chargers (with a merc) and all was well, had breakfast, by the time we'd finished breakfast the car was at 85% and we cariied on the journey.
The car was saying the next stop should be Exeter services where there should be 24 chargers. As we approached it said 2 of the 24 should be free. We got there and it was bedlam, not just at the ev chargers, but the entire services were horrendously busy. We had. A drive down the row of chargers but couldn't see any free, despite the app saying 2 should have been free, not sure if people were parking inconsiderate lying or whether the utilisation was being incorrectly reported. Anyway we gave up on Exeter services and moored on to the next public tesla superchargers at lifton. These were very quiet, but no cell signal on my phone, so couldn't start the charge, managed to sort this by enabling a WiFi hot-spot on the wife's phone which had signal, put 30% in the car and got to Fowey 6 hours after leaving Manchester.
Left the car in the main car park at Fowey charging on a swarco slow(7kw) charger, ready for tomorrow.
A couple of people were having difficulty with the slow chargers, they were trying to use a contact less payment card to start the charge, where they would only take an rfid card or use the app. The instructions on the chargers are none existent so no wonder people struggled. I'd done a bit of go ogling so knew they needed at rfid card or app to start the charge.
Pembrokeshire is an easy place to EV
If you want to slow charge, in my experience. Most seaside towns seem to have a slow one but there are few rapids. By the way, I think it was a Dragon charger in Amroth where there was no signal for the app but the charger itself had a public WiFi hotspot. Not sure if this is the case for all Dragon units.
Edit: just had a look on Zap Map and the situation seems to have improved significantly. Single and double rapids have cropped up in many places and slows have proliferated as well. Loads available now. Amroth has gained a few more slows and a rapid.
I managed to get the CPS charger to work when I went back this morning, think I just needed to be more patient as it went through its process of connecting.
One thing I am finding using the public chargers on this holiday is they are not as expensive as you think if you plan, and 22kw are just fine, no need for the expensive rapid chargers unless you are doing a long motorway stint. As I am just top up charging when out and about I am saving parking fees. Today I got a 20% (12kw) top up for about £2, it was £5 but I saved the £3 parking fee. Really is a mindset change.
Slow chargers are cheap, for sure, I seem to see about 40p or so but I've only ever used two.
Just visited Tintern Abbey, a bank of four 11kw chargers. You have to pay for parking but you can claim the full fee back in ice creams from the pub. A two hour walk along the Wye Valley was a very pleasant (if not fast) way to top up the car for tomorrow.
If you want to slow charge, in my experience
Pembrokeshire is ideal destination charging territory though, plugged into a 22kw charger (pulling 11) for a couple of hours whilst you go to the beach gives a sensible top up whilst you're there. And there are regular fast chargers all the way from Swansea to st clears.