[Closed] Election Campaign

From Gordon Brown's speech today. I could be very wrong but I think Labour are going to do better in Scotland than many think.

[i]While for the SNP the pursuit of nationalism is their goal, we believe in partnership, and that real progress is not some progressing at the expense of others but all of us progressing together. So it could never have been Scottish nationalism but only Scottish Labour that led the way to a minimum wage across the whole of the UK, to stop the good region undercutting the bad and the bad nation undercutting the worst in a cut-throat race to the bottom – and it is a minimum wage that we will convert into a £8 an hour minimum wage

And that is why there can be no deal, no tie-in, no arrangement and no compromise with an SNP for whom nationalism is the imperative they serve.

Not because we are taking the low road of electoral calculation.

But because we have taken the high road of supporting the very principles of cooperation that the SNP want to break; the principles of partnership that the SNP would smash; the principles of sharing that the SNP would bring to an end; and the principles of solidarity that the SNP would throw into the dust.

And that’s the difference.

The nationalists wake up in the morning thinking of how to advance the cause of a separate state.

We wake up in the morning thinking of how to advance the cause of social justice.

Their aim is a second referendum. Our aim is a fair economy.[/i]

Is it just me or does anyone else immediately regret clicking on these election threads? 🙁

Is it right to extrapolate this to wider Scottish society ? What ever the answer it certainly reinforces the steriotypes.

A good article on why you shouldn't vote for Ed as he is an economic idiot

Nice article on the portrayal of the SNP there as the threat and the personalisation of it all. We all agree Clegg is a spineless shit who will do anything for power but we portray her and the SNP as the villains here.

Lol, Gordon Brown.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The only reason Labour has ever stopped "the good region undercutting the bad and the bad nation undercutting the worst" is because nowhere has ever or will ever be allowed to compete with London. What did Labour ever do for the communities left behind by the Thatcher era once they gained power? Nothing, because they always knew they could rely on habit over rational thinking, abandon their principles and instead chase the vote of the middle classes.

As long as Labour retains the same old faces and principles (or lack thereof) for better or worse they will be as toxic as the Tories up here.

Unfortunately, unless voters wise up and their habits change to rational thinking we are doomed to see the whole cycle repeat itself all over again.

From Gordon Brown's speech today. I could be very wrong but I think Labour are going to do better in Scotland than many think.

Yup, Gordon Brown's definitely got his finger on the pulse of Scottish political opinion 😀

What did Labour ever do for the communities left behind by the Thatcher era once they gained power? Nothing, because they always knew they could rely on habit over rational thinking

Not quite true. I've said it before but take a drive round any northern city or town and you'll see loads of brand new schools, health centres and hospitals, libraries, sports centres and community centres. Sure they may not have redressed the balance in terms of jobs and incomes, but they were hardly going to rebuild the old industries in 10 years or provide new ones. You are right though in that labour take the votes of northern working class voters for granted. Unfortunately their reaction to that is to jump on the anti-immigrant bandwagon and pander to ingnorance.

He did OK last time they wheeled him out 🙂

@squirellking "no one will ever be allowed to complete with London" ? Really where did that come from 😐 As for communities left behind hundreds of thousand of people every year are prepared to travel across the world to live and work in the UK. London and the South sends billions and billions (34 in fact) to the rest of the country every year to pay for education, health and welfare.

The most striking thing about this election is the fact that it seems to have taken place in a reality vacuum especially on the fiscal front

Ganesh wraps it up well in today's FT as "The carnival of nonsense and futility...the campaign has embarrassed this country with its studious avoidance of little things such as fiscal reality and the state of the worlds....a country that has not balanced a budget since 2002 has developed the bravado of a country with a SWF, forever arguing with itself about how to use surplus revenue that does not exist....the NHS...has not had a serious word said about it.....[it goes on]"

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/6e4ba78c-f00e-11e4-bb88-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ZFQkouGr

Good job none of this is important 😉

The legacy of the referendum - the democratic process descends to a carnival of nonsense and futility!!

He did OK last time they wheeled him out

For the Referendum? Well, he promised lots of stuff he wasn't in a position to deliver ("Something close to home rule" was the quote I think), but surveys afterwards showed that the last-minute No stuff didn't really make much difference.

So if by "okay" you mean he managed to appear in public without calling someone a bigot, then yes, he did okay 🙂

teamhurtmore - Member

The legacy of the referendum

LAWL

The legacy of the referendum - the democratic process descends to a carnival of nonsense and futility!!

Oh, for the love of Mike, give it a rest, will you? Fine, you're smarter than everyone else, the whole of Scotland has suddenly gone mad and stopped listening to hard economic realities, which only you and your economist mates properly grasp. We get it.

Just for fun, YouGov have just released the Scottish data from their last survey - the questions on party leaders are good:

[i]Do you think Nicola Sturgeon is doing well or badly as First Minister?

Well: 75% (+7)
Badly: 19% (-7)

Net rating: +56

Do you think that Jim Murphy is doing well or badly as leader of the Scottish Labour party?

Well: 27% (-5)
Badly: 62% (+8)

Net rating: -35[/i]

That's a 91 point difference between them. Not all that many people fussed about the helicopter, it seems 😉

bencooper - Member
We get it.

It took time, but yes that was the main reason for the way the vote turned out. Phew, it was close.

Hasn't stopped the on-going nonsense about fiscal responsibility though has it? Independent commentators can give it a rest when the source dries up! 😉 Otherwise, it should remain open to due scrutiny.

Indeed the FT article relates this to all the main parties at the moment, and I agree.

It took time, but yes that was the main reason for the way the vote turned out. Phew, it was close.

Well, no, it wasn't. Not according to the post-referendum surveys. The most popular reason for voting No was good old-fashioned British nationalism, people felt British and believed in the Union.

At last some local interest in the campaign. Here in Todmorden you would barely notice there's an election going on at all, but thanks to our local Tory MP, Craig Whittaker, Calder Valley is now back on the electoral map (in a small way) thanks to the following tweet:

"Trust Labour? I'd rather trust Jimmy Savile to babysit"

I'd like to think it'll make a difference, but sadly I think we'll still be stuck with him come Friday.

The most popular reason for voting No was good old-fashioned British nationalism, people felt British and believed in the Union.

Very good on the Brown remarks above

Finally just for record you said "everyone" above, I for one am not admitting that tmh is smarter than me, not publicly anyway

Serious question, is it really the case that the economics of being a tiny country in a world where size really matters, without a clear vision of what currency you would use or whether you would be in the EU where not more important factors ?

"Too many unanswered questions" was the second most popular reason for voting No, apparently - a few percentage points behind. So yes, the economics mattered to people too, they just weren't the top reason.

jambalaya - Member
From Gordon Brown's speech today. I could be very wrong but I think Labour are going to do better in Scotland than many think.

Aye, they're busy digging up the dead for their postal votes as usual.

Are the Tories worried about stiff competition?

[img] [/img]

The legacy of the referendum - the democratic process descends to a carnival of nonsense and futility!!

I'm not sure it is a product of the referendum or if it developed alongside it as a consequence of the increased use of social media since the last election, and every meathead's opinions going viral, but there is definitely a nasty hostile streak that is still present on both pro SNP and anti sides, and is persisting into this election. I have a couple of fanatical SNP friends who share really unpleasant/made up stuff on facebook, it was enough to swing me away from yes in the referendum and it is still bafflingly going on. It makes me dislike the SNP which isn't the right reason to not 'like' a party, Sturgeon is probably the strongest party leader there is right now.

Interestingly I see the SNP suspended two members who disrupted that creepy plonker Murphy's thing yesterday, somewhat contradicting the chat yesterday that they weren't SNP members or anything to do with the SNP! The party must be banging their heads in frustration at people like that.

More disgusting violence from unionists in the run up to the election, but no media coverage?!

From all my posts today, a woman had to go to A&E, unionists attacked an SNP branch, and now more unionists have attacked an SNP convoy! But hey that doesn't matter! The only thing that matters is that Jim Murphy got shouted at by "Violent Nationalists" and so it deserved the attention of the mainstream media to give the SNP a bad name! Labour and their dirty, twisted, scaremongering bulls**t!!

For balance as the coverage seems so one sided

They weren't the brightest!

[img] :large[/img]

http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/vote-now/

Hahaha oh dear. In the defense of Nicola, I took "it had nothing to do with the SNP" to mean they didn't organize it, didn't condone it and it they weren't there promoting pro SNP values, just anti Labour ones. Stupid thing to do and they've rightly been suspended. All the talk in the media about the violence involved was so over the top. Doesn't do their credibility any favours.

@squirellking "no one will ever be allowed to complete with London" ? Really where did that come from As for communities left behind hundreds of thousand of people every year are prepared to travel across the world to live and work in the UK. [b]London and the South[/b] sends billions and billions (34 in fact) to the rest of the country every year to pay for education, health and welfare.

Methinks you answered your own question there.

Of course HS2 was about an economic injection to provincial cities, nothing at all about extending the London commuter belt.

And of those hundreds and thousands how many are going to be setting up home in ex-mining towns? Ex-ship building towns? Ex-manufacturing towns? Every shithole I see has been a victim of heavy industry closing down with little in the way of prospects for those left behind. But it's okay because there are always jobs down south so long as you're prepared to live like crated veal to afford it.

No, if London and the SE had serious competition it would collapse, probably bringing a property crash along with it. Who the hell would want to pay through the odds to live at the other end of the country in a congested sprawl when they could have a similar standard of living just down the road?

That's what I meant and tbh I don't think you are really that naiive.

I'm not sure it is a product of the referendum or if it developed alongside it as a consequence of the increased use of social media since the last election, and every meathead's opinions going viral, but there is definitely a nasty hostile streak that is still present on both pro SNP and anti sides, and is persisting into this election.

It's on all sides, really, and not just in Scotland - equally meatheaded stuff coming from the supporters of all parties all over the UK. Especially UKIP of course.

Though the most toxic stuff isn't a bunch of people on Twitter, it's what's coming out of the right-wing press and politicians.

bigjim - Member
...Interestingly I see the SNP suspended two members who disrupted that creepy plonker Murphy's thing yesterday, somewhat contradicting the chat yesterday that they weren't SNP members or anything to do with the SNP! The party must be banging their heads in frustration at people like that.

I've been running in to quite a few "angry" SNP supporters recently.

Interestingly they are all ex-Labour voters, and they're still furious with that party, especially when they now realise the crap it's dishing out in Scotland. Basically their message is "SNP bad".

Those who have been supporting home rule or independence long-term are a lot calmer, we've seen all this shit before, but it's new to the the converts, and winds them up.

BTW apparently they are opening postal votes already in Gordon Brown's electorate. Is this legal?

Obviously there's a difference between having SNP members turn up at an event, and having it be an SNP event or anything to do with the party. I could join the Tories tomorrow and burn down a church, if you like...

Postal votes are always opened before the big count. Party reps are in attendance but they should not be able to see the results or to report on them to others. Ruth Davidson got some of her folk into trouble on the referendum due to this. If postal voting numbers are already being discussed then electoral fraud has taken place and the police should be involved.

@squirel - HS2 is about trying to give Birmingham and the Northern cities a boost. It's not going to be a commmuter on the line and ticket pricing will be set to discourage it as it is on many high speed lines. You comment on property prices is just a bit daft, London is a huge draw for foreign investment/bolt-hole and employment prospects are much better than the rest of the country hence the pressure on housing. I think it's a spectacular waste of money and they should just upgrade the airports in Birmingham and Manchester. @Binners has spoken in past posts about economic reality, its just much cheaper to build ships in Asia our industry was sustained primarily on Defense contracts in recent times and that work has gone now. You can say management had a hand in poor Labour relations and it wasn't just the unions but the fact is large parts of our manufacturing industry where poor in comparison to international competitors so our businesses closed down.

On the SNP thing, we have a classic attempt by them to claim "its nothing to do with us" when their rhetoric builds resentment and encourages conflict and has done so for the past 2+ years over the referendum. It has shades of Kristallnacht for me. JY I imagine had one of those incidents been filmed it would have made the news.

It has shades of Kristallnacht for me.

Godwin!

What do I win?

HS2 is about trying to give Birmingham and the Northern cities a boost

A boost to us is not making it 15 minutes quicker to get to London and only southerners think this . From liverpool its faster to London than to Hull or Newcastle for example

It has shades of Kristallnacht* for me

* I assume we mean a series of coordinated and sytematic attacks carried out by paramilitary forces against jews resulting in deaths , 30,000 imprisoned for being a jew ...Jesus mate that is not even hyperbole. Why not go on about how anti English the SNP are 😯

Seriously, though, I know you're notin Scotland, but if you think it's the SNP side that's building resentment and encouraging conflict you're sadly mistaken. Murphy and Dugdale really only have one answer to any question they're asked - "SNP BAD". Scottish Labour have spent almost all their time telling us why we shouldn't vote SNP, very little time telling us why we should vote Labour.

It's sad. Pathetic, even. Problem is that Labour have had Scotland as their own little fiefdom for a century, they have a real visceral hatred for anyone trying to take it away.

Godwin!

What do I win?

Not as familiar with the Scottish Labour party but in England there is hate towards any party that makes it easier for the Tories to be in power.

Getting a bit bored of it now. Think I might boycott today. Too early for predictions?

I'm looking forward to seeing if the bacon sandwich muncher turns down the chance to be PM.

Because that will be the day we see pigs flying and I've always wanted to see that.. 🙂

Jamba thinks the SNP builds resentment and this makes them to blame for the actions of others; doesn't think having the Prime Minister tell us our democratically elected representatives aren't allowed in our government does. Oh and sees Jim Murphy being attacked for austerity policies and the war on Iraq, thinks it must be all about the SNP. Here's a thought- perhaps Labour have built resentment by their own actions?

jambalaya - Member

JY I imagine had one of those incidents been filmed it would have made the news.

You don't really have to imagine, the precedents aren't good- there was footage of Stewart Dredge getting attacked in the street for campaigning for Yes but what was on the news that night? Reruns of Jim Murphy getting hit by an egg 2 weeks before.

That's a 91 point difference between them. Not all that many people fussed about the helicopter, it seems

It has shades of Kristallnacht for me.

Which is a shame - if a small republic was bought by a homophobic bus oligarch, it would be a terrible shame.

Funnily enough, I agree. If Scotland was independent, I'd never be voting SNP - the parliament would be a much more healthy mix of parties, and better for it.

But we can't get that at Westminster - best we can do is try to throw a spanner in the austerity works.

Too early for predictions?

Willie Rennie says there's no reason why the Lib Dems won't hold all their Scottish seats 😀

I like Willie Rennie. He's just so [i]nice[/i]. Like a softly-spoken geography teacher.

I see [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/06/uk-election-ed-miliband-con-trick-number-10-says-david-cameron ]Cameron is trying to rewrite the rules[/url]. Good luck with that, those civil service types are sticklers for following procedure. Is he really going to debase himself with a tawdry attempt to cling on to power even though it's against all established procedure and precedent?

Interestingly also, the Palace has indicated that the Queen isn't going to read any Queen's Speech that's not going to be passed by Parliament.

So someone's going to have to do a deal somewhere.

(Not even going to get into the discussion about WTF an unelected monarch is doing interfering in such things.)

Interestingly also, the Palace has indicated that the Queen isn't going to read any Queen's Speech that's not going to be passed by Parliament.

So someone's going to have to do a deal somewhere.

(Not even going to get into the discussion about WTF an unelected monarch is doing interfering in such things.)

It's at points like this that the bizarre interweave of monarchy and parliament starts to get in the way a bit. I can understand that the monarch would not want what is effectively her proposed government voted down in front of her.

If it was just parliamentary business without the presence of the Queen, you could take a 'suck it and see' approach to this kind of confidence vote.

@squirel - HS2 is about trying to give Birmingham and the Northern cities a boost. It's not going to be a commmuter on the line and ticket pricing will be set to discourage it as it is on many high speed lines.

Well if it's not to be used for commuting what IS it to be used for? And yeah, those quicker journey times between London and Birmingham are going to make such a difference to the north.

I think it's a spectacular waste of money and they should just upgrade the airports in Birmingham and Manchester.

Wow, that's gonna help. How about travelling between places in the north? Oh, wait, why would you want to do that? London...

You comment on property prices is just a bit daft, London is a huge draw for foreign investment/bolt-hole and employment prospects are much better than the rest of the country

That is exactly my point! The employment and commercial opportunities suffer elsewhere in order to feed the monster that is London. If you changed that then house prices in London would crash due to a massive drop in demand.

@Binners has spoken in past posts about economic reality, its just much cheaper to build ships in Asia our industry was sustained primarily on Defense contracts in recent times and that work has gone now. You can say management had a hand in poor Labour relations and it wasn't just the unions but the fact is large parts of our manufacturing industry where poor in comparison to international competitors so our businesses closed down.

Thanks for the history lesson I already knew. What relevance does that have to what happened AFTER the industries shut down? My post-Thatcher quip was just a reference to the era, nothing else.

Good article on likely scenarios after tomorrow here:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99cdc6da-f318-11e4-a979-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ZMHRTB9B

Not this one then

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f3b674d8-f3d8-11e4-99de-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3ZFQkouGr

😉

@squirrel I was differentiating between commuting every day for work and business travel/tourism etc which is what I assuming they think will happen with HS2. In the South we drive between places as the train is inconvenient and far too expensive. Post Thatcher millions of people have arrived in the UK from all over the world looking for work, if you where a shipbuilder on the Tyne for example you too could have moved for work. Populations have always moved, the wealthiest parts of the UK where around Midlands/Norfolk when it was farming, then the North when it was manufacturing and now its the South as we are a more service based economy

best we can do is try to throw a spanner in the austerity works.

Yes @ben that really suits Scotland and indeed much of the North as the spending is paid for by someone else, via borrowing and/or taxes raised in the South

And to think it's us northerners who are accused of being chippy. Don't worry worry Jam, we'll try and spend your hard earned taxes wisely 🙂

So when does Boris Johnson get his P45 for referring to the hopeful election result as Ajockalypse Now?

Could you imagine the outcry if a Scottish politician made a similar comment against the English?

I think its just classed as 'banter' when said by borris or clarkson

I think its just classed as 'banter' when said by borris or clarkson

[i]“Boris is Boris and he has a colourful way of expressing himself … Boris like me is a passionate believer in the United Kingdom … That’s not my language, that is Boris’s language.”[/i] - David Cameron.

So that's alright because Boris Johnson is the official Tory Party clown.

I think its just classed as 'banter' when said by borris or clarkson

wanmankylung - Member

So when does Boris Johnson get his P45 for referring to the hopeful election result as Ajockalypse Now?

Well I smiled anyway, certainly not any dafter than some of the serious comments coming from the Tories.

Stage managed UK election. Haven't watched this yet but the one on "Who would the Calais asylum seekers vote for" was interesting

Forget the polls, are the bookies ever wrong on General Elections? Currently; Conservatives 1/5, Labour 7/2.

If labour and SNP do reach an agreement, I think that there will be huge English support for another referendum on independence which is probably Sturgeons goal.

Apparently the bookies historically over estimate conservative numbers

Apparently the bookies historically over estimate conservative numbers

Apparently the bookies historically over estimate conservative numbers

Really?

If labour and SNP do reach an agreement, I think that there will be huge English support for another referendum on independence which is probably Sturgeons goal.

Seriously? You think your fellow countrymen are so small minded that they would get so butthurt we voted for who we wanted rather than who you wanted they would want to throw us out?

If that was the case then I don't think many would shed a tear. Luckily I know you are slevering utter pish.

Seems the Scottish police are worried about radical pro-nationalist violence outside polling stations following a social media campaign to ensure the ballot isn't rigged "like the referendum was" 😯

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/06/nationalist-scotland-voters-photograph-ballot-papers-general-election ]Guardian[/url]

Getting exciting now, [b]very [/b]exciting.

[img] [/img]

Well IMO the huge number of opinion polls are close to worthless, too much of an incentive for them to try and be the story as its all good for business. Bookies do tend to be more reliable as its people staking their own money not trying to generate headlines and thus earn some.

No one has a clue - everyone is guessing - some will guess right.

[quote=jambalaya opined]Well IMO the huge number of opinion polls are close to worthless, too much of an incentive for them to try and be the story as its all good for business. Bookies do tend to be more reliable as its people staking their own money not trying to generate headlines and thus earn some.

That is the one for today.

Gamblers and those profiting for them are better at prediction election results than those who make a living from making accurate predictions based on solid research methods
I particularly like the way you argue gamblers are not trying to profit from gambling
THANKS
Its one of your best efforts
BRILLIANT
😆

I do so look forward to your satirical/daftest post of the day.

FWIW bookies calculate odds based on how they can make money from how people are betting not on how likely an outcome is you can change the odds [ shorten] with a lot of bets going for a certain outcome.

Forget the polls, are the bookies ever wrong on General Elections? Currently; Conservatives 1/5, Labour 7/2.

That's for winning most seats, which as any fool now know isn't going to have anything to do with who's going to be in charge after the dust settles. Both leaders seem to be pretty much at the same odds for ending up as PM.

Well I just got my UKIP flyer through the door. It's all about voting for a local candidate who really cares about local issues. Which is a shame, as the village is not in the same constituency as the candidate.

It just got a bit more interesting, the last guardian/ICM poll, after previously having the tories 2-6% ahead of labour in previous polls, has them tied.

Think I'll kick off the predictions:

Tories largest party, but only by half a dozen or so.
Libdems to do slightly better than expected - 35 seats or so.
Clegg to lose his seat
SNP to gain all but a handful of seats in Scotland
UKIP to collapse
Labour/Libdem minority coalition + support from greens/PC/SDLP (based mostly on Clegg losing his seat)
Cameron/tories to whinge and whine like spoilt school children and an unedifying attempt to cling on to power.

Seriously? You think your fellow countrymen are so small minded that they would get so butthurt we voted for who we wanted rather than who you wanted they would want to throw us out?

If that was the case then I don't think many would shed a tear.

Luckily I know you are slevering utter pish.

I think it is interesting that with the mainly very-pro-tory press flinging absolutely everything, including the kitchen sink, at Miliband the polls don't seem to be moving much. I await tomorrow's Sun saying he eats royal babies while dancing naked wrapped in the Saltire invoking demons to come out of his bum.

On the whole I think that's a good thing, regardless of party as it shows the papers don't really have the power we think they do. Perhaps they are just echo chambers.

Unless of course Miliband would be way ahead if it wasn't for them.

Getting pretty excited/nervous now!

I've been working late to try and get my stuff done so I can go home tomorrow night and vote.

Seems the Scottish police are worried about radical pro-nationalist violence outside polling stations following a social media campaign to ensure the ballot isn't rigged "like the referendum was"

Jesus wept, did invoking Godwins Law not get enough attention so now you're resorting to outright lies?

FFS people really need to grow the **** up...

I think it is interesting that with the mainly very-pro-tory press flinging absolutely everything, including the kitchen sink, at Miliband the polls don't seem to be moving much. I await tomorrow's Sun saying he eats royal babies while dancing naked wrapped in the Saltire invoking demons to come out of his bum.

I found this rather appalling...

[img] [/img]

Getting a govt (or in this case an influence) that the recipients haven't voted for? Undue influence from over the border?

Never been an argument I subscribed to I'm afraid, better luck next time.

What was your point then?

What was your point then?

Now, Ms Sturgeon is a very canny, shrewd operator (moreso than Salmond I think). Her endgame is an independent scotland, mission success if she gets it.
So, how does she go about it? She will have a lot of influence, a prominent platform to be heard. She will have no problems with getting another referendum (trident?). She knows it, Milliband knows it.
The SNP wasn't afraid to stir the english up last time (a cursory look at a tabloid would show what people were being fed), why not this time?
Got to be honest, I wouldn't blame her if she did. There has been a lot worse done.

Seems the Scottish police are worried about radical pro-nationalist violence outside polling stations following a social media campaign to ensure the ballot isn't rigged "like the referendum was"

Bloody hell. This shite was spouted by the media at the referendum and the police had to come out and say they weren't worried and that the media should stop trying to create trouble. Seem they're at it again.

I'd be very surprised if there were more than a handful of nuts try and track their papers to the counting stations and I doubt there'll be trouble.

That article up there by Littlejohn - disgusting

The SNP wasn't afraid to stir the english up last time (a cursory look at a tabloid would show what people were being fed)

Still dont get why you get so much anti SNP rhetoric[ to the extent they have to be ruled out from being in govt] whilst insisting its really them that are anti english