[Closed] Election Campaign

Serious question. - what is class identity?
I am a long term Labour voter (although that has got a lot harder) and I vote a particular way because I feel its the right thing for society as a whole.
I work in manufacturing but I feel no particular affiliation to some idea of the 'downtrodden masses' anymore than I feel antipathy for those who earn a lot more than me.

Don't tell me your missing the good old days of the TU block vote? 😉
Should I mention electoral colleges?
Didn't David(even more right wing then Ed) Milliband get more votes than Ed in the leadership election too?
🙄

Serious question. - what is class identity?

According to the polls reported in the Observor this morning... some are showing the SNP winning every scottish seat. All the polls show them with 40+

I think, come May 8th, that a lot of people in Westminster are going to be bitterly regretting the arrogant, cynical and self-interested way they've dealt with the SNP thus far. It's reality check time!

Also an interesting piece about a majority of what will remain of the Lib Dems blocking Clegg from going into another coalition with the Tories. Also, the right wing of the Tory party refusing to make concessions to the lib dems.

The assumption that there will be some kind of coalition come the 8th may is looking more and more doubtful. It's going to be messy, unstable, and I think we'll be back to the polls again before the end of the year. Though whether that will change anything....?

It's being reported from senior Tories that, if Cameron gets more seats, he's going to declare himself the winner even without a majority. Forcing Labour to go back on their repeated claims that it's the largest party that gets to form the government, and having to vote down a Tory Queen's Speech with SNP support.

Britain desperately needs a party which represents the interests of ordinary working people

See.. I don't understand this idea that the interests of the rich are not those of the working classes. There is a lot of overlap. Businesses do well, and working classes do well at the same time. What is needed is a way of discouraging the rich businesses from becoming even richer at the expense of the workers.

In the old days, the problem was the same but had different roots. The coal had to be supplied, and the workers were the only ones who could do it. That's not the case with service industries, they can be endlessly rearranged, exported or automated. So these days you have to make conditions favourable for big businesses or us workers will have nothing to do.

I think this is what new labour aimed to acknowledge. I think it was a pragmatic approach to the modern business world. I think the problem was one of execution not concept.

What we need most of all, more than anything tory or labour, is anti-Thatcherism.

Also an interesting piece about a majority of what will remain of the Lib Dems blocking Clegg from going into another coalition with the Tories. Also, the right wing of the Tory party refusing to make concessions to the lib dems.

It is extremely unlikely that the numbers will add up for another Conservative Liberal Democrat coalition so what LibDem or right-wing Tory MPs think is fairly academic imo.

I think a minority Labour government which dares the SNP to vote against it and risk a Tory government is quite feasible. If after a period of stability Labour struggles because of SNP or LibDem wrecking tactics it can call a general election.

With Miliband's credentials as Prime Minister material hugely enhanced and the SNP portrayed as destructive and disruptive Labour could quite possibly expect a sufficient lift in support to secure a Commons majority.

The SNP needs to be extremely shrewd and play the game very carefully, they're probably up for that. They certainly appear to have done an excellent job of wiping Labour out of Scotland.

So vote SNP and we all get the Conservatives. Thanks a bunch 🙁

How do you figure? Most seats doth not a majority make.

In fact Labour could make a coalition with either SNP, the Libs or the small parties (minus UKIP) and still come ahead of the Tories.

Simple fact is a vote for SNP is a vote for SNP. I'd rather vote for someone else but tbh I have little choice in my constituency and I'll be damned if I'm letting the Labour incumbent back in (totally useless and keeps mouthing off about devolved issues whilst doing nothing for us at national level) or the usual Lib Dem first timer who knows nothing about the area they supposedly represent.

I think a minority Labour government which dares the SNP to vote against it and risk a Tory government is quite feasible

Now I may be being hopelessly naive here but would it not best serve the SNP to vote on the issues rather than for party political power games?

They could be seen as the honest and upright party, which they seem to like, and they would also be able to ensure stuff they like goes through and stuff they don't gets stopped. Who needs a coalition? Isn't it also more democratic that way?

molgrips - Member

Now I may be being hopelessly naive here but would it not best serve the SNP to vote on the issues rather than for party political power games?
They could be seen as the honest and upright party, which they seem to like, and they would also be able to ensure stuff they like goes through and stuff they don't gets stopped. Who needs a coalition? Isn't it also more democratic that way?

UK party politics is not democratic in its truest sense. There are very few free votes. Nearly all MPs are under the party whip, therefore vote how they are instructed to. Which may not be in the "MP representing their constituents" best interests.

Politics is all about power for the individual MPs, that at all costs, if that happens to be representative of their constituents views then it was a happy accident and nothing more.

@ernie interesting post and I agree wholeheartedly re the SNP. I think Labour represents a more modern type of working person than do you.

@futon, yes I have said from the start vote SNP get Conservative.

FWIW I think the outside chance result is a Tory majority, I still believe they will form another coalition or possibly minority government

I don't understand this idea that the interests of the rich are not those of the working classes...Businesses do well, and working classes do well at the same time.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/31/real-wages-falling-longest-period-ons-record
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/9196093/Graphic-50-years-of-the-FTSE-All-Share-index.html

BTW, "class consciousness" may be a more useful way to think about the question than "class identity".

@ernie interesting post and I agree wholeheartedly re the SNP. I think Labour represents a more modern type of working person than do you.

All the evidence suggests that Scots very strongly disagree with your assessment jambalaya. Of course we will know for certain on Friday morning but it would very much appear that a majority of Scots agree with me and no longer see Labour as representing ordinary working people.

It is extremely unlikely that the numbers will add up for another Conservative Liberal Democrat coalition so what LibDem or right-wing Tory MPs think is fairly academic imo.

I'm just going to put my only contribution into this thread here...

I sense the faint whiff of '92 about this year's election, even with all the distraction from SNP/UKIP etc. In fact Ive put my money where my mouth is and bet with Ladbrokes at 5/1 that there will be a Tory [i]majority[/i] on Friday.

It will be humbling to see just how wrong Ive got that when I come back into this thread on Saturday 😉

futon river crossing - Member
So vote SNP and we all get the Conservatives. Thanks a bunch

Same as it ever was.

Ed Milliband is Moses and I claim my 5 shekels.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/03/ed-miliband-sets-promises-in-stone

it would very much appear that a majority of Scots agree with me and no longer see Labour as representing ordinary working people.

hmm, careful with the extrapolation there I think, Labour share of the vote in 2010 was only 42% and the recent poll sees that dropping to 20% - a quick check of previous elections says that Labour have never had a simple majority of votes cast, so I would suggest it's Arguable that the majority of Scots have never seen Labour as representing ordinary working people.

You could probably say a majority of Scottish Labour voters agreed with you though.

Lib dems are the biggest losers here (proportionately) going from 18.9% to about 5%, while it looks like the conservatives may actually slightly increase thrir vote share 😛

5/1 that there will be a Tory majority on Friday.

You woz robbed, odds too short, personally can't see it, they need to be winning Labour facing marginals to achieve that and there is no indication they are achieving that. I can see wins of maybe 15 LibDem seats, but they would still need 8 more Labour seats.

Ive put my money where my mouth is and bet with Ladbrokes at 5/1 that there will be a Tory majority on Friday.

I believe that for the Tories to have a majority they need to have about an eight point lead over Labour. Generally opinion polls are up to about 3% out, to be two or three times that amount out would represent the greatest disaster for the pollsters since '92.

The problem in '92 was the "shy Tory factor", let's face it voting Tory is a dirty and rather disgusting activity best done on your own in a polling booth with the curtains firmly closed and no one looking. So it's hardly surprising that some people feel embarrassed by their dirty little secret and are reluctant to publicly confess.

However since an inquiry held by the pollsters in '92 the methodology has changed and the shy Tory factor is now taken into account. In the last couple of decades the polls have been remarkably accurate, iirc NOP predicted the 2010 general election [i]exactly[/i] - to the precise percentage.

I hope you didn't put more than a tenner Stoner otherwise I fear you might well have to readjust your budget and buy cheap food for a couple weeks or so.

[s]England[/s] Britain votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.

Ed Milliband is Moses and I claim my 5 shekels.

Ed's monolith can't stand up without support. Which is beautifully symbolic of a Labour government 😀

No, England votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.
Same as it ever was.

@ernie, IMO Scotland are voting SNP primarily for independence/referendum related reasons, it's nothing to do with Labour representing working people or not.

No, England votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.
Same as it ever was.

Eh? We have a documented, proven case - 1964 - where Scottish MPs have turned what would have been a Conservative government into a Labour one, and 2010 when we ended up with a coalition rather than conservative government because of Scottish Mp's

So its really not the same as it ever was, is it?

@ernie, IMO Scotland are voting SNP primarily for independence/referendum related reasons, it's nothing to do with Labour representing working people or not.

Much as I'd love that to be the case, I don't think it's true. Various polls have shown support for independence has grown a bit, but it's still a couple of % less than 50% probably. What we're seeing is a continuation of the way the SNP took over from Labour at Holyrood, the referendum (and more importantly its aftermath) might have hastened that but it's been a trend that's been happening for a while.

Your opinion (Jambalaya) would be wrong then. I know a lot of people voting for them because there is nobody else to vote for.

Tories have screwed the country.
Labour screwed it before them.
Libs will sell out their principles for a shot with the big boys.

There is nobody else standing that we can hope to represent a leftward leaning view that has a chance of getting in. I'm under no pretence that SNP are actually leftist (at least not as a whole, I'm sure the same cannot be said for factions within) as opposed to populist but that is the point; they are giving us what we ask for, nobody else is.

Of course there comes a point where those concessions need to be paid for and we are seeing the cost already. Am I happy? No but do I trust anyone else to deliver? Even less likely. Criticise all you like but they really are the best of a bad bunch by a fair margin, at least they pretend to be leftist rather than joining a circle-jerk to the bottom that the other three are busy sweating over.

I'm a normal working person and the Conservative's policies are better for me in almost every way - go figure

robowns - Member
I'm a normal working person and the Conservative's policies are better for me in almost every way - go figure

They're better for me too, but they are not better for the weak and vulnerable. In fact they're disgusting IMO.

@ernie, IMO Scotland are voting SNP primarily for independence/referendum related reasons

So now you're accusing the Scottish people of being stupid and not knowing the difference between an independence referendum and a general election.

Assuming that you are correct what do you put this sudden surge in favour of independence down to ? All recent opinion polls in Scotland put the SNP above 45%.

I would be interested in knowing why you think independence now has greater support in Scotland than it had 6 months ago. And how that squares with your pro-unionist stance.

From the New Statesman, some perspective on the real nature of the SNP

Like true vanguardists, the self-styled ‘45’ decided to set democracy and majority opinion aside and behave as if they were real voice of Scotland. Their pledge that the referendum would be a “once in a generation” event was immediately ditched in a frenzy of debate about how soon a rerun could be engineered and what ruses would be needed to secure a different outcome. [b]Everything the SNP does is now framed with that solitary objective in mind.[/b]

The effect has been to foster a dominant attitude that is [b]highly sectarian and trending towards totalitarian[/b]. There is only one truth and one way to be authentically Scottish – the nationalist way. Anyone who disagrees with this is, as one SNP parliamentary candidate put it, the moral equivalent of a Nazi collaborator. There is no space for pluralism and honest compromise with a movement in this state of mind. The normal rules of democratic conduct don’t apply because it answers to destiny alone. [b]When Nicola Sturgeon says that she wants to help the Labour Party, she does so in the same spirit that Lenin once advised his British followers support the Labour Party of Arthur Henderson: “as the rope supports a hanged man”.[/b]

[b]The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny. When Sturgeon was asked at her manifesto launch to name a redistributive policy enacted by the SNP in Holyrood, she was unable to cite a single example. [/b]There has been plenty of middle class welfarism, but no effective measures to reduce inequality or poverty. Indeed, the SNP in power has resembled nothing as much as New Labour in its pomp, [b]combining the worst reflexes of authoritarian statism and market liberalism with a superior, “we know best” attitude that brooks no opposition.[/b]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again

Be careful what you vote and wish for! It's not always what it seems. 😉

THM, someone's opinion is not proof.

teamhurtmore - Member
From the New Statesman, some perspective on the real nature of the SNP...

Mmm, do you expect us to believe there would be a very objective piece from the rabidly SNP hating Labour NS?

...The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny...

Maybe not from the twittering classes of pseudosocialism, but the other parties would kill for a street turn out like this in any town. But of course Scottish voters are stupid, eh?

[img] ?oh=d2f59d1f0d9cfdcfe86af751f9335e5f&oe=55CDEF3A&__gda__=1440732972_2e5d5fe13f81b6b576803753b71a06b7[/img]

The only thing that is going to save Labour's arse in Scotland on Thursday, is when the dead rise from their graves and lodge their postal votes.

Indeed, it isn't.

Like the opinion that the SNP is left wing or good for Britain. The proof is in the testing and the facts speak for themselves. How many progressive policies exactly, how many poor folk in tertiary education exactly....the list goes on!

The ends justify the means and at least the ends are clear.

You can make you own views on the stupidly or otherwise epic. The best test and place to start is to compare rhetoric with reality. You soon get a quick indication.

THM,in my opinion,the Conservative party fails your test too.

teamhurtmore - Member

...Like the opinion that the SNP is left wing or good for Britain...

I don't care about whether it has left or right ideology.

I do care about whether it tries to protect the weak and vulnerable, and of course that it continues to push for independence now that Home Rule looks like a lost cause. It tries to do both, not perfectly, but it tries.

When Nicola Sturgeon says that she wants to help the Labour Party, she does so in the same spirit that Lenin once advised his British followers support the Labour Party of Arthur Henderson: “as the rope supports a hanged man”.

To be fair it was always on that basis that I previously supported the Labour Party. The problem is that I recognise when a corpse is dead and the stench coming from it suggests that it's time to bury it.

If you read Lenin's critique of the Labour Party you will see that he very strongly argues that everything possible should be done to help it achieve power. Because once in power they would eventually expose themselves to be just another bourgeois and reactionary party and betray the trust placed upon them. Hence the support Labour like a rope supports a hanged man comment. Despite making the comment nearly a hundred years ago Lenin wasn't far wrong.

Sadly imo this leads to the ridiculous situation where the Morning Star still unconditionally supports the Labour Party, instead of accepting that it's time to cut down the corpse and bury it. Mind you their argument is based on the claim that today the Tories have an agenda which is so right-wing that no matter how bad Labour are everything possible has to done to help them achieve power. That to be fair is a powerful argument and I struggle to argue against it.

THM,in my opinion,the Conservative party fails your test too.

Indeed it does - take austerity, what austerity, for instance. The Tories continue to spend more than they earn and that is austerity! Well be calling non-taxes, taxes soon (bedrooms anyone?). Spending more that you earn is so terribly RW isn't it even the poster girl used to do it!!!

Anyway take a look at income inequality under the dreadfully Tories and the progressive SNP and let's see under which the lowest paid have done better. And then..

I do care about whether it tries to protect the weak and vulnerable, and of course that it continues to push for independence now that Home Rule looks like a lost cause. It tries to do both, not perfectly

One of those is certainly true despite the once in a generation promise. Speak no evil.....or should that be EVEL!! 😉

I do care about whether it tries to protect the weak and vulnerable

FFS I hate this soft-left bleeding heart bollox. **** the weak and vulnerable. No one should be weak and vulnerable. I don't want to live in a society where we have to protect the weak and vulnerable. I want to live in a society where no one is weak and vulnerable.

EDIT : For me being left-wing is about empowering people, not protecting them.

As a matter of interest, in England does this happen in your town when Cameron or Milliband come visiting?

[img] [/img]

BTW I don't mean do the Scots turn up, I mean do Tory or Labour supporters turn up. 🙂

No they are not allowed to fly nationalist flags - people mistake them for the EDL 😉

EDIT : For me being left-wing is about empowering people, not protecting them.

With jobs??

Crikey Ernie, you are beginning to sound like a Tory boy. 😉

Having a hard time here, which one of those is a nationalist flag?

Incidentally, the bile that article is deriding is exactly the same that you spew on a daily basis. TBH all that post did was make you look either stupid or a hypocrite.

SNP are a means to an end though I suspect you don't quite understand the end that some of us seek. I could take independence or leave it but in the more immediate future a message needs to be sent that business cannot continue as usual.

With political, economic, and state power, THM.

If I'm sounding like a Tory then I've seriously misjudged them. I had no idea they agreed with me that the people have a legitimate and unique right to political, economic, and state power.

Understand it perfectly squirrel. It's the only bit that is true. I'm afraid you may get a shock though. Could have sworn the yellow one with the black bit on represented a nationalist party, must be mistaken.

Just joshing Ernie, we both know state power disempowers people!

Epicyclo - when Dave or Ed come visiting? I live in a key marginal, so we'd had the dubious pleasure of both. Not that you'd ever know it, of course.

They were both whisked in, unannounced, had their rictus grin photoshoots with the local candidates, in airless rooms, with audiences of the fawning party faithful, then whisked off to their next engagement. You saw it on that evenings local news, but you'd never have known they were there. The party apparatchiks made sure there wasn't a cat in hells chance that they'd actually encounter an actual voter! What?!!! Someone with actual opinions?!! Or even worse.... Questions?!!! Not a ****ing chance!!!!

And that's why nobody has any enthusiasm for either main party or their carefully choreographed charades!

I'd pay good money to see Dave go for a meet-the-voters walkabout in Bury town centre. See what reception he got.

Oh.... and whipping up petty and divisive nationalism is fine when Dave's doing it. Which he's been doing rather a lot. It's only nasty and unpleasant when other people do it!

It's laughable to accuse the SNP of nationalism given the present stance of the Tory party. Where petty, small-minded and hysterical nationalist scaremongering seems to have become their main electoral pitch!

It's nasty, divisive, short-termist and pathetic, with potentially devastating long term consequences that they couldn't apparently care less about! But then that's dave and the rest of this present shower to a tee!

It's laughable to accuse the SNP of nationalism

When their manifesto starts "Stronger for who?" And the N stands for what? How else should it be described

Nationalist (cross)
Left wing (cross)
Progressive (cross)

What's left? (Excuse the pun)

Why did you chop binners sentence in half THM?

The full uncut sentence is : [i]"It's laughable to accuse the SNP of nationalism given the present stance of the Tory party."[/i]

It's a perfectly reasonable claim. And just to make it clearer he goes on :

[i]"Where petty, small-minded and hysterical nationalist scaremongering seems to have become their main electoral pitch!"[/i]

Editing and taking out of context someone's comment to make them look stupid is one thing, but I really don't see the point when the full comment and the full context is right there for everyone to see as clear as daylight.

My point is that it's a bit rich accusing people of nationalism, when there has been no more cynical display of it since Dave stood on the steps of number 10 the day after the referendum, and indulged in a display of the most shameless, distasteful example of exactly that he was criticising. And he's not let up since!

It personally disgusts me! At least the SNP have nationalist in their title, so there's the clue. What the present Tory party are indulging in is absolutely abhorrent! Questioning the legitimacy of certain areas of what's meant to be a democracy? And there will be horrendous long term consequences to that! For all of us! Change the names, and It wouldn't look out of place at the breakup of Yugoslavia! As certain cooler headed and wiser Tories have pointed out: it's a very very dangerous game he's playing! And all for his own opportunistic short term political ends!

Nationalism is never pretty! But the Tories are way more guilty of exploiting it at the moment than the SNP!

Odd, when they are one of the main beneficiaries, but if you say so. Dave will be wearing a brown shirt next week.

Opportunistic short term gains - politicians?

So you're saying he Tory party isn't presently basing its main electoral pitch, somewhat desperately, and horribly cynically, on stoking up petty English nationalism?

Seriously....?

I don't see anti-English rhetoric from the SNP. Their pitch seems much more positive than that. And look at the response of the electorate? But shameless, cynical, and horribly arrogant anti-scottish rhetoric is all I seem to be hearing from Dave. It's disgusting!

THM - I'm not sure I will be shocked really, as I said I have no illusions as to what the SNP have been doing for the last eight years or what they hope to acheive in the next eight. they are populist, pure and simple but I'd still far rather have left wing populism than right wing denial. Sure, they're another party that claims the left field but at least they deliver some progressive measures rather than what the rest have been doing with their time.

For your own records that includes free prescriptions, free public transport and maintaining free tuition (even if it was a Lib Dem policy). Sure their taxation hasn't been, well, anything but in fairness it was never supposed to be, all the extra tax powers do is pass all the costs onto Scots as opposed to the block grant, it would be political suicide to even contemplate using them. That being said I'm well aware of NHS problems, missing commitments to reregulate public transport (wonder why?) and the 'burden'* that council tax freezing has placed upon local authorities.

What, in comparison, has everyone else been delivering? If even one SNP leftist populist policy makes it down south I would declare that a victory, I'm sick of seeing people I know getting screwed over by the system and none of the current three have made any commitment to righting those wrongs.

* Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is a burden but it would be naiive to suggest that they have trimmed the fat appropriately.

Oddly enough THM is wrong about the N in Snp as is Banners . It stands for national.Clearly the Snp is a nationalist party but it isn't in the name. I wonder when the Conservatives will drop the unionist part from their name?

how many poor folk in tertiary education exactly....the list goes on!

A lot more than there used to be.

Editing and taking out of context someone's comment to make them look stupid is one thing, but I really don't see the point when the full comment and the full context is right there for everyone to see as clear as daylight.

Has he mentioned how deceitful the SNP can be when misleading people ?

I don't see anti-English rhetoric from the SNP.

Oh the irony on both counts

wanmankylung - Member
how many poor folk in tertiary education exactly....the list goes on!
A lot more than there used to be.

Wanmanetc

I will stick to the experts thanks

The abolition of the graduate endowment fee for Scottish undergraduates in 2008 has become the totemic policy of the SNP but it has not been universally praised.

Prof Riddell says the abolition of tuition fees has had [b]no discernible impact on poor Scots’ access to universities.[/b] At the same time, the number of further education colleges has fallen from 37 in 2011-12 to 20 in 2014-15.

Research by Lucy Hunter Blackburn shows the SNP halved spending on student grants in real terms, [b]meaning that many poorer students are worse off under its system.[/b] “Scotland is the only part of the UK where borrowing is highest among students from poorer backgrounds”, the former senior civil servant says.

Is that we mean by a progressive government that is proud of its record on education? Either easily pleased or deceived - you choose.

Good spot Gordie and I stand corrected! It's was www.snp.org that describes themselves as left leaning nationalists that confuse me. But I know now from here, that we not allowed to use that term any more.

That's a little unfair THM, as I assume you are aware the SNP promised in their manifesto to abolish all student debt, I'm sure they will get around to it some time, maybe after their child care reforms.

😀

Use what term you like THM. If you need any more help let me know

Progressive policies?
Fiscal responsibility?

Starters for ten....

Still no one left to blame in a few days time.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32573812 ]#EdStone[/url]

😀

Another incisive foray into political threads there CPT 😉

I tend to ignore them these days, Junky. I found I was boring myself, so heaven knows what others were thinking!

That was just too funny not to share though! As mentioned, it's like no one in his team stopped and said, "Was this in The Thick of It or not?"

You in favour of Downing St errections then JY ? 🙂

I think I said it was full of dicks so not quite the same thing 😉

CPT yes it was quite surreal /bonkers

You're confusing the graduate endownment with tuition fees. They were/are completely different things.

Also, student grants? Not since ~1997 unless you're in medicine.

No wonder you're confused if you can't find sources who know what they're talking about.

surreal /bonkers

How much are they paying Axelrod for his brilliance?

I note that all mention of it has been scrubbed from Ed and Labour's twitter accounts as well. As if they're saying "What stone? No. No idea what you're talking about."

If anyone can explain how a national police force is progressive?

I don't think SNP supporters are anti English they are anti anyone who doesn't agree with them. I know some mostly Scottish folk who've been verbally and physically abused for not coming out in support of the SNP

Oh why not!

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Plenty more out there.

Sadly, none so far reference owls.

Sorry squirrel I mistook the Uni of Edinburgh as a sensible source. My mistake. What do they know, hey. Good job THM jnr didn't apply there! It was a v good Uni in my day.

It's appalling that anyone should be abused or intimidated for their political views or indeed any other views.This behaviour does occur from a tiny minority of nutjobs on all sides of the debate.It's not a characteristic of the vast majority of Snp supporters equally it is not a characteristic of the vast majority of supporters of the labour tory or liberal parties.

It seems as if the Tory tactic this election is, "we can't possibly overplay our let's frighten everyone with the SNP bogeyman card".

The Tories brought one of their big guns here in Croydon to warn people that if they voted Labour the SNP would demand that any Labour government ignores Croydon.

[b][i]"If you think Croydon will get a look-in under that government, you can forget it. You'd have a weak Prime Minister and the Scottish Nationalists would have the decisive say and they are not interested in Croydon." [/i][/b] - George Osborne

[url= http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/NEWS/12925483.ELECTION_2015__Croydon__would_not_get_a_look_in_under_Labour_government___claims_George_Osborne ]Croydon 'would not get a look-in under Labour government', claims George Osborne[/url]

.

.

Incidentally George Osborne also said that Croydon was, quote :
[i][b]"one of the fastest-growing, most-prosperous communities in London".[/i][/b]

This is Tory "prosperity" :

[url= http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/cent-Croydon-s-young-people-living-poverty-report/story-18220732-detail/story.html ]Twenty per cent of Croydon's young people living in poverty, report shows[/url]

[b][i]ONE in five children in Croydon is living in poverty, with more than a third surviving below the breadline in the borough's most deprived areas.[/i][/b]

[url= http://insidecroydon.com/2014/01/19/6000-households-in-north-croydon-living-in-fuel-poverty/ ]6,000 households in north Croydon living in fuel poverty[/url]

[b][i]More than 11 per cent of households in the north of Croydon don’t have enough money to heat their homes this winter, according to the government’s own statistics.[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.endchildpoverty.org.uk/london/poverty-in-your-area/croydon-21/ ]Poverty in your area[/url]

[b][i]Croydon has above-average levels of deprivation when compared with other London boroughs[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-socalled-inwork-poverty-soars-by-59-under-coalition-as-more-people-with-jobs-are-forced-to-claim-housing-benefit-9340907.html ]So-called 'in-work poverty' soars by 59% under Coalition as more people with jobs are forced to claim housing benefit[/url]

[b][i]The areas with the biggest increase in claimants by working families include Croydon (up by 1,100 per cent)[/i][/b]

[url= http://insidecroydon.com/2015/04/29/its-economically-grim-down-south-here-in-croydon/ ]It’s economically grim down south here in Croydon[/url]

[b][i]According to Trust for London, Croydon offers the lowest pay rates of any borough south of the river.

Last year Croydon had the eighth highest rate of possession orders (when landlords are granted the right to evict tenants) of all English local authorities – and the second highest by number of orders. Around 1 in 20 of all Croydon residents are on the council housing waiting list.[/i][/b]

Obviously George Osborne thinks he can talk up how well Croydon is doing in the same way as he talks up how well the economy is doing, it is however bollocks, as the facts prove.

Shocking stats Ernie and interesting to compare with how they stack up over time, isn't it.

SNP leaders say that because the 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Act makes it very difficult to dissolve parliament, voting down a budget would not be a fatal blow for a minority Labour government but would merely force it to come back with revised proposals.

😀 😀

Apparently some english are insisting the SNP are doing this. IIRC its the exact same one who agree you must never ever be in govt with the SNP as they cannot be trusted

Sorry squirrel I mistook the Uni of Edinburgh as a sensible source. My mistake.

Evidently.

Because what I said is true. Unless there is something in that report that has been missed out then it certainly does look like they haven't the foggiest what they are actually talking about. Bursaries and grants are two very different things, as are tuition fees and graduate endownments (and the SNP never haad anything to do with scrapping tuition fees).

I couldn't give a stuff who wrote it, if it claims what you say it does it's badly written pish a high school student should be embarrassed to hand in.

Game changer:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11579451/Lily-Savage-star-Paul-OGrady-to-leave-Britain-if-Conservatives-wins-election.html

Who wouldn't want their Sunday Radio 2 to be just a little less depressing?

teamhurtmore - Member

Prof Riddell says the abolition of tuition fees has had no discernible impact on poor Scots’ access to universities

DISCLAIMER: This stuff is ridiculously complicated and counterintuitive because of the way university funding and placement works and the number of simultaneous changes in practice and environment... it's entirely possible some of my comments below will not be correct, but they're based on a pretty good understanding of the facts.

Over the timescale we've seen a substantial increase in the number of applications and acceptances from deprived backgrounds (not specifically low income, the Scottish sector uses a system called SIMD which while pretty flawed in a lot of ways, captures more relevant factors than income alone).

Sadly we've seen a proportional decrease in applications from low income households from the RUK since the increase in fees. This isn't a like-for-like comparison of course but I can categorically say that we believe that the increase in tuition fees has led to a fall in low-income applications from the RUK (*) despite a huge increase in the resource we put into attracting them (literally millions of quid), and that the abolition of fees and other measures in the same timescale has led to an increase in SIMD applications.

(* bearing in mind that there are extra costs for an RUK student studying in Scotland so it might be that many of these students still apply to uni; just not here. Which would be much more positive but still shows a loss of choice and opportunity)

To 2013, the proportion of scottish students from an SIMD40 background increase from 22.5% to 23.2%. That's still a big underrepresentation- equality would be 40%- but a significant improvement. Equality is probably unachievable tbh simply because of the different educational outcomes. That figure also pre-dates the increase in funded places for SIMD students, which I'll discuss in a moment.

Progression is another issue not mentioned; the number of students dropping out of university for financial reasons increased pretty steadily after the rise in tuition fees (again despite significant work to counter it), and fell for scottish students after the abolition. Sadly this gets ignored in most statistics but imo completion is a far more useful measure than enrolment. This stuff is full of hygiene factors and data issues though so probably hard to get really good stats out of it... Applications are a [i]cleaner[/i] measure, just less useful.

The student finance point is an extremely complex one- while central government funding to students has fallen in real terms since the abolition of fees, that's not the whole picture. Bearing in mind above all that the burden of cost on students fell massively.

One thing is, quite simply, most universities now have a stronger income from RUK and international students (despite the Home Office's insane wrecking ball attempts to discourage international students). There's just less need for central government funding to support basic services, and more capacity for the industry to support students rather than the government doing it directly. This stuff changes the whole picture.

The sfc unlocks unscheduled funding for additional places to SIMD students, I believe an extra 700 places last year. I suspect there's other sources of indirect funding via leaps and the like which are missed in a similiar way.

Another big development is the increase in contextual admissions- one of the biggest issues with getting kids from deprived areas into uni is the academic one, the Scottish Government's made some pretty significant moves in encouraging unis to compensate for this. Basically, we now have to take into account that a student from Govan High with B and Cs is a high achiever and probably a better academic performer than a kid from Jordanhill with straight As. That's policy straight from the top, and IMO possibly more important than bags of money. And also, dammit, just the right thing to do whether or not it delivers 700 extra kids in uni.

There's also far more work done with college articulation. I'm not clear if Prof Riddell's report takes this into account, but I don't think it does, it seems her statistics are based on normal applicants not direct. Considering that this is one of the best ways to widen access to university and helps many simd students and mature students, that'd be a big oversight.

I can't comment on college funding in the same way, it's outwith my field. I understand that the recent cuts in fe funding are actually smaller than the savings from the regionalisation of the scottish colleges though. If that's correct then it's an increase in funding to frontline services at the same time as a decrease in the cost to the taxpayer, which is kind of hard to criticise.

What I can say for sure is that fe in Scotland has changed a lot over the last few years so simple comparison of numbers isn't going to be useful.

Oh, just to add (because obviously that post wasn't long enough). I do think Scotland like the UK in general has the balance of FE and HE fundamentall wrong. But I don't think there's any political will anywhere in the UK to do anything about that, and frankly it'd be political suicide for the scottish government to rebalance education spending towards fe colleges, it'll always be painted as taking away opportunity. But also, the UK outwith education also undervalues fe, so it'd take a lot more than funding to fix this, we need better colleges, more college places, possibly better college courses, and we need employers and applicants and parents to take colleges more seriously.

The recent changes in fe have been important though. My gut feeling is that we're basically better at it than the rest of the UK though, the SQA kicks ass at fe, a curiously unsung scottish triumph that's better known in China than in the UK

Getting close to the big day. Can I just say that I am getting nostalgic so THM, could you just type " the truth is out there." one last time for Ben and I? It is afterwards that will be interesting,the SNP will have to be used by Labour to get policy through..without looking like they are used by labour...It could also be amusing watching Cameron refuse to leave if he is within 15 seats of Labour! #SNPforCroydon. Those stats surprised me,I always thought it was a fairly affluent place. Oh and NW; I do a bit of work for the SQA,they sell their products to over 40 different countries...I am unimpressed with this and feel a verification team should be dispatched from the "old country" to ensure standards are being met in say,New Zealand?

Well I'm happy to not be there at the moment. Sounds like every outcome will disappoint a lot of people (being happy to not have a party in power doesn't sound like a great outcome)
Con/Lab both want to push for complete victory, the rest want to declare their can't do withouts, will be interesting to see what actually makes it to policy & is implemented.

Ed's stone looks like a great wish list
[img] [/img]
1) Whatever he wants to define that as
2) one pound a year better off?
3) How much time?
4) Controls? Like a count at the gate?
etc etc.

Ed's obelisk aside, he's hated by Rupert Murdoch and the Daily Mail, so he's probably alright