[Closed] Elder Care - Has anyone had any experience of them?

Not heard of Elder Care, but we use HomeInstead for Mum in Law when she was imobile and before she went into a care home - they seemed to do a good job, living in, for a few weeks, and they continue to provide additional support for her now she's in a care home.

As an alternative why not book your dad into a respite care home for a bit of a holiday. I have elderly neighbours who use care homes as holiday destinations for a few weeks at a time.

Just commenting as I have an interest in this. FIL has a live in carer currently, but she isn't going to be able to do it indefinitely. Our experience of care elsewhere (respite for the live in carer) so far is not good TBH 🙁

I suspect a lot of people on here will have a vested interest in this subject. Thanks for the responses so far. My main concern I think is probably driven by the fact that he will be on his own with this live in carer and it will be very hard for anyone to have oversight on the situation. That makes me really nervous not least when you consider the horrible stories about abuse in care homes that have emerged recently.

Almost certainly my brother and I will end up staying up there with him as well as the carer and working from home there (which we can do).

If they are registered with the CQC (which they should be) you can look them up on the CQC website. Will tell you what you need to know

I work at the sharp end of health and social care and although I'm no expert, the Care Quality Commission are very stringent in regulating care providers.
You should be able to look up a CQC report for any provider online.

There have been horror stories recently, but these are incredibly rare and IMO these cases have only served to improve the standards

Thanks Nick and Yunki - I was hoping someone involved directly in the health care profession would comment. Very helpful.

As with all care providors its all about profit and saving money,you pay your money up front and hope to get good care givers and good supportive management to look at complaints and do something about them.

Check what the actual fees and hours are,ask about staff coverage if the usual care giver is on holiday or on a course, ask if the parent will have a dedicated care giver or a pooled resource, ask for details of training and skills of the care givers, what are the cancelation terms, days weeks or months,been there done it and failed to a certain degree.

Private care providers are very much cost driven. They pay the staff very poorly so its the usual pay peanuts get monkeys

I have heard the name of this company but cannot remember the context

I assume you are doing this as a private payer not council funded. If so I would be interviewing the staff they are going to send to you myself and I would be insisting on the same staff for each visit

TJ it's actually to cover a period when my mother will be in hospital having a knee replacement and then convalescing at home so the carer will live in.

Ah

Self funded? when you say live in do you mean 24/7 one person or different people doing sleepovers?

I would still be insisting on personally interviewing the person / people who are going to do the care as well s the managers of the outfit and I would be looking at more than one outfit.

My experience of home care providers is only council funded ones - and is pretty poor. The good staff leave quickly due to the appalling pay and conditions. continuity is a real issue

Is there a social worker involved / assessment made of your fathers needs? I would also seriously consider covert cameras

Can you not take leave from work to at least supervise?

Can you not take leave from work to at least supervise?

I think almost certainly that is what my brother and I will do; between us we can cover this as like you suggest, the idea of having no oversight worries the heck out of me.

Yes this is self funded; I'm not sure my mum is aware of any alternative though more recently she has started to get help from social services.

Thanks for your advice TJ, greatly appreciated.

You could almost certainly get social services help for your dad in this situation. this would be limited to 4x a day half hour visits tho and you would have no choice over who and when. For a physical disability I would suggest your dad went into a care home that does respite - however for people with dementia this is not a good option at all.

If you have the money then self funding gets you better care no doubt at all. It is very expensive tho - 24/7 care will cost a lot and beware sleepovers are now seen as working time.

Hiya,

geetee1972

Almost certainly my brother and I will end up staying up there with him as well as the carer and working from home there (which we can do).

Just for your own peace of mind it's a good idea, at least until you and you're parents are happy that the care package is suitable.

They pay the staff very poorly so its the usual pay peanuts get monkeys

Patronising, insulting bollocks.

this would be limited to 4x a day half hour visits tho and you would have no choice over who and when.

Not true.
The care package should be tailored to the needs of the individual, especially times of visits etc.

however for people with dementia this is not a good option at all.

There are excellent care homes specialising in dementia care.
Many care homes will have residents with dementia and staff should be trained appropriately.
Not everyone with dementia would be suited to such a placement, but many people are.
Depends on the individual and their needs.

and beware sleepovers are now seen as working time.

Why shouldn't they be?

Rusty. Have you any actual experience of home care? Home care companies who work for social services pay minimum wage or a tiny bit more with no pay for travelling time. In Edinburgh where I live they simply cannot recruit enough staff to provide the service because of this. Its the main reason for "bed blocking" that packages of care cannot be arranged and because its so poorly paid standards of care are low. I know this both from a professional viewpoint and from personal experience of a friend of mine who relied on home care

4x a day half hour visits is the maximum home care councils will fund unless you fight very hard. The reason for this is that more than that costs more than NH care to the councils so if you require more care than 4x a day half hour visits you will be assessed as needing NH care. any night visits are almost impossible to get.

Yes a few care homes do provide decent care for those with dementia. However that is nothing to do with my point that it is proven that for people with dementia leaving their own home for respite is very disruptive because familiarity is very important to people with dementia and going into respite care. Hence the gold standard for people with dementia is respite at home not in care homes. Going into a care home inevitably leads to deterioration in people with dementia as you have removed them from their familiar environment which increases confusion.

This is the world I have worked in professionally for decades. I know this stuff inside out.

I agree sleepovers should be paid as working time. However until a recent court decision which the care providers are still fighting sleepovers were paid as if "on call" not working.

Maybe things are different up in Scotland; but based on my experience here in Wales of assessing and putting packages of care together for families with a family member with dementia ... then tjagain is giving some wrong information, and also some bad advice.

Get in touch with social services and ask for an assessment. STW is not the best place for advice on such matters.
Good luck.

What is wrong information and bad advice?

tjagain - Member
Rusty. Have you any actual experience of home care?

6 years, plus 4 years (and counting) in a unit with several dementia patients.
How about you?

I agree with many of your points, but you are being over simplistic.

I agree with many of your points, but you are being over simplistic.

Well I didn't want to write a phd thesis! Just trying to give the chap some pointers in a simple way.

Me 35 years experience in care of the older adult from running care homes and dementia care units to supporting a friend who was reliant on home care. Just recently I had a discharge home fail because the amount of home care available was completely inadequate

Installing a secret camera from the beginning would be the most obvious; straight away you have given a Daily Mail headline to the op ... suggested that abuse is a certainty!
If you can`t see the problem in that then I am struggling to guess what social care professional you have experience as??

Also the 4xhalf hour visits a day ... this is most definitely not the default package in such cases.

And lastly - the pay peanuts, and get monkeys comment ...

TJ, could you pm me with details of the non NHS dementia units you have been involved in?

And an apology for your utterly ignorant and insulting remark regarding care workers would be appreciated.

tjagain - I also missed the bit about not being able to choose who, when, and what care you get ... I guess you don`t know about direct payments? these alone allow a person to design the care to suit themselves; its called personalisation ... but I guess you have missed that too.

Mooman - that is the maximum care available in most cases. The only times I have seen more than that was after long battles with the assessors and then its only one or two cases. Do you really provide packages of more than 4 times a day half hour visits on anything other than a very unusual basis?

Ok I'll apologise for "pay peanuts get monkeys" ( I was tired and grumpy last night and angry because of the collapse of yet another discharge due to crap home care) I get that is insulting to those who try hard in home care) and change it to " due to low rates of pay for home care, retention and recruitment of staff is very difficult, training for home care staff is inadequate and those staff who try to provide a good service usually end up burnt out and leave"

I am not going to give any details of the care homes I have managed. One 3rd sector Care home, one private care home that worked on council funded patients where the care was simply awful, one high end private care home where the care was barely adequate. I hav e also done agency work in lots of care homes. No relative of mine will ever go into a care home nor will be reliant on council provided home care as my experience of this is simply awful

I have also worked as a co0mmunity nurse and seen first had the inadequate care provided by home care from the council. finding patients in soaking wet beds at 10 am, seeing young people being put to bed at 7 pm as that is the last available visit

The problem is that we do not wish to fund care to a level where care can be adequate.

the current home care system is close to collapse in many parts of the country due to difficulty in recruitment and retention of staff.

A close friend of mine was reliant on home care provided by the council. they had been assessed as requiring the maximum care. 4x daily half hour visits - one by two staff members. No more care than this was available. No visit for 11 hours overnight. She was unkempt, stinking, they stole money, no visit ever lasted the half hour as the staff travel time was not paid. She had a really good carer who resigned in tears because she was unable to provide good care due to the time pressure she was under. That carer actually came to my friends house in her own time simply to try to keep my friend well cared for. So yes good home carers do exist but the system they work under grinds them down.

edit - crossed posts. Yes I know about direct payments system. I didn't think it would be appropriate in the OPs situation given it takes a long time to set up.

East lothian the average wait for a care package is 12 weeks. 1/3 of all hospital beds in lothians are occupied by people waiting for care packages who are fit for discharge

I accept your apology.

training for home care staff is inadequate

I completely agree with many of your points, but again this is simply untrue.

Stop it with the generalisations.
It's extremely unhelpful.

Well I guess it makes a change me not being the one to cause the rabid arguing and cat calling 😯

I think everyone is motivated to help in their responses to my original question (indeed, this perfectly sums up the view I've always had of most people but in particular of TJ whom I've always secretly liked very much despite) and I am grateful for that.

Of course I would always use the information on such threads with care.

My father, or perhaps more pertinently, my mother, is getting some support from social services now. One of the things they've done that has really helped is given her a grant for a cleaner to come to the home and help around the house, which is making a big difference (and my brother and I are topping up the hours).

The Elder Care option for one month costs £4,500, which is for 24/7 care.

Sorry Rusty. training for home care staff is inadequate. That is simply true.

What the care companies say they provide and the reality is very different, and what they even clam they do in the way of training is grossly inadequte

The Elder Care option for one month costs £4,500, which is for 24/7 care.

£6.25 an hour. Thats not even minimum wage and the company will be taking a profit off that so the workers will be paid less. Obviously they are only paying sleepover rates not working time overnight.

Obviously they are only paying sleepover rates

So your maths is wrong, and how they manage to pay min wage for the rest of the time. I'm not defending shonky care, but at least try be accurate TJ. There's really bad home care out there, and that speaks for itself, you don't need to make it look worse than it already is TBH

Sorry Rusty. [b]some company's [/b]training for home care staff is inadequate. That is simply true

There's massive variability in the care system. which is part of the issue.

My maths is wrong? 24 hrs a day for 30 days is 720 hours. 4500 / 720 is 6,25 an hour. Now if the company is only charging 6.25 an hour how much per hour are they paying staff? the only way they could do this is by paying not much above minimum wage for daytime and well under for nighttime

As for training. No home care company provides what I would consider adequate training. No carer should be going into someones home unaccompanied without at least svq ( NVQ in england?) level 2 IMO and even that is really badly under-trained for what is required.

The way the system is set up it is impossible to have adequately trained staff.

nah, it's over night rates, so it'll be £30-ish for 10 hours. means you can pay up to 8.50 for the rest. It's how they manage to pay min wages. Not saying it's right, but that's how it's done.

what I would consider adequate training

ah well. you're not the end level-boss of home care though are you?

thats what I said nickc - but a recent court case judged that overnight rates should be paid at minimum wage but this is not yet binding as the care providers are appealing

You forgot the care provider will be taking a profit and also have to pay holiday pay emplyers NI contributions etc out of that.

Sure, but the point is your maths isn't right, it's not how the rates are calculated. They're calculated pretty shoddily, but not like how you've done it. It doesn't really matter though. It's still ends up being crappy low wages, for a pretty full on job.

zero hours contracts mean no holiday pay... (just sayin, don't shout at the messenger... 😆 )

If its the same outfit, then the CQC [url= http://www.cqc.org.uk/location/1-822707947 ]inspection report[/url] is encouraging. It's akin to an MOT on your car in that they can only assess what they saw on the day. It looks like they have moved office since (requiring registration at the new premises), but that's not a cause for concern on its own.

From the OP, it appears that a formal assessment of Father's needs is warranted, if this has not already taken place. This should take into consideration the current and likely future domestic circumstances, etc as you probably are aware. This takes time so might not coincide with the knee operation. You mentioned a grant provision for domestic support - can you speak to the people who you dealt with then?

Comparisons with the Scottish system are skewed, because over 65s are entitled to free personal care here. There's a 'national contract' that specifies residential care rates for Local Authority funded places, which equates to about 28 hours of home care (hence TJ's comments about a pressure towards residential care above this level of provision).

More generally, I am not convinced the picture is quite as bleak as some view it (I think a third of [i]delays [/i](136 people at Aug 17) might be related to care arrangements, not a third of [i]beds[/i] occupied (NHS Lothian has about 3500 beds over all specialities). While I have no doubt improvements can be made, there are a lot of people in many agencies working very hard and who are good at their jobs.

Long story short, have a chat with the social work department if you haven't already.

Nickc - we are agreeing on this - just looking at it differntly

I should have said an average of 6.25 an hour total income to the company perhaps so the company must be paying only sleepover rates at night and not much above minimum wage for daytimne

zero hours contracts do not mean no holiday pay. Holiday pay is given as a % of your average wage

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2017/07/26/government-bows-care-provider-pressure-sleep-payments/

twice with chips - at one point a couple of years ago over 350 people where in acute beds at WGH and RIE awaiting care packages ( including those awaiting NH placements) or so the figures we were provided said. thats about 1/3 of all acute beds. Maybe I only had partial information. 3500 NHS beds in the lothians? Really?

Nickc - we are agreeing on this

sure, I'm just being pedantic really. 😆

I am about to date someone who works for Helping Hands, she reckons the money is good. Also reckons the office staff are prety hopeless, one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. Only been with them since April though, but 12 years in care.

As you are 24/7 I guess that you rack up your wages pretty quick as you are not supporting yourself.

tjagain - Member
Sorry Rusty. training for home care staff is inadequate. That is simply true.

Not in all cases.

As you seem unable to acknowledge that your generalisations are unhelpful and incorrect, I'll not respond to you further.

Good luck gt, I hope everything goes well for you and your family.

Rusty -

I want good standards of care by properly trained staff. I know of no care provider that provides anything like adequate training. care to enlighten me as to what you think is the adequate training provided by a care provider? for me svq / nvq level 2 is the minimum standard that should be used. Even that is barely adequate

Edit - I think the difference is that what you consider adequate and what I consider adequate is too very different things

geetee1972 - Member

Well I guess it makes a change me not being the one to cause the rabid arguing and cat calling

You are though really, you started this 😉

Seriously though, hope you get something sorted for your dad.

3500 covers all specialties (and I rounded), but here's more details:

According to ISD there were 3444 in 2016 : [url= http://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Hospital-Care/Beds/ ]Hospital Beds[/url]. There's a spreadsheet on there where you can get the stats for WGH on its own. 350 delays there would be half the beds.

Similarly, delayed discharge stats are reported here: [url= http://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Delayed-Discharges/ ]ISD again[/url]

I wonder if the differences relate to the duration of delay (and the point of census). Very few are delayed over 12 weeks, but that doesn't mean they aren't important.

EDIT - while a matter of interest, this doesn't help Father - let us know how that goes?

I think the difference is that what you consider adequate and what I consider adequate is too very different things

Fab, but as already discussed what you consider adequate is irele-phant. Become the Head of the CQC and then you can set the [url= http://www.cqc.org.uk/what-we-do/how-we-do-our-job/fundamental-standards ]Fundamental Standards of Care [/url]

the 350 delays were WGH and RIE combined and its the information we were given by the delayed discharge coordinator. You are probably right tho about the numbers being counted in different ways for different purposes

Ta for the info tho. All knowledge is useful unfortunately I don't have a recent enough excell to open the spreadsheet but I was very surprised by the number of beds you stated

EDIT - while a matter of interest, this doesn't help Father - let us know how that goes?

Nickc - that document is full off woolly phrases but no laid down standards that I can see

as you can tell this is a subject that I care passionately about and I want to see a fully professional, well paid and highly skilled home care service not what we have at the moment which is a "cheapest tender" basis leading to a race to the bottom.

enough - I have derailed this subject too much and I apologise for that.

yeah, that's the public face of it, the actual inspection is pretty thorough (having done a few) the HR Qualis and documentation checks are pretty robust, from basic stuff like infection control, and safeguarding, all the way through nursing qualis for critical care. It's not perfect by any means, but any organisation that's managed to get through an inspection has it's ducks in the right rows IME.

That's not to say that pay couldn't be better, but that's a whole different conversation TBH.

Arrgghhh - I want to argue further given my knowledge of the gulf between what they put on paper and what they actually do!! quick nurse - the restraints and gags
*muffled shouting and thumping from the corner*

😆

start a thread..?

Arrgghhh - I want to argue further given my knowledge of the gulf between what they put on paper and what they actually do!! quick nurse - the restraints and gags
*muffled shouting and thumping from the corner*

It's my thread and I say you should debate and argue TJ!

I have the information I need now so thankyou. The wider issue is important and I think it should be discussed.

Fill your boots.

I'm also interested in what tj and the others have to say. Parents (incidentally located in Scotland) are likely to be in similar/related situations in the future. Currently they are together at home and managing 100% by themselves but both 80 so that won't last indefinitely. Been thinking about some temporary relief for my mother but no action as yet...

Probably worth reiterating that the Scottish system has fundamental differences from that in England (and elsewhere). However the general principles of assessment of need and obligations to provide care thereafter are similar.

From something I did earlier - this relates mainly to care in the persons own home:

Personal care is free of charge to those in Scotland aged 65 and over who need it, whether at home, in hospital or in a care home. Free nursing care is available for people of any age who need it. People can also purchase services as a private customer.

These (assessed) personal care services are commissioned (or delivered) by a local authority. To get them, an assessment by social work services is required. The details of care provided will vary according to the assessed needs, and the eligibility criteria set by the local authority (see appendix).

Personal care is of a personal nature. Essentially if it involves touching you, then it is personal care. This may include: bathing, nail care, toileting, help with eating, dressing, help getting in and out of bed, using hoists, or with prostheses, mechanical and manual aids.

Nursing care needs involve the knowledge and skills of a qualified nurse. A general guide might be that anything that breaks the skin is included e.g. administering injections or managing pressure sores. Some simple treatments, creams or ointments fall under personal care.

Assessments of care needs are requested from the local authority (which now act on behalf of the Health and Care Partnership). They have a duty to assess needs and determine whether the local authority’s eligibility criteria are met. Once needs have been identified via the assessment, the authority has a responsibility to meet them. Traditionally this was done via direct provision or commissioning of care services.

Self-Directed Support is intended to provide those with assessed needs greater control over how these needs are met.

The Scottish Government says
“Self-directed Support allows people, their carers and their families to make informed choices on what their support looks like and how it is delivered, making it possible to meet agreed personal outcomes.”
Self-directed Support includes four options to support choice and control:

1. Direct Payment (i.e. actual money), the use of which will be audited;
2. Funding allocated to a provider of your choice (the council holds the budget, but the person oversees how it is spent);
3. Services arranged directly by the council (like the traditional method); or
4. People can choose a mixture of these options.

In options 1 and 2, the person receiving service may choose (within reason) how their support is provided and by whom. Social Work departments operate an audit process to ensure that Direct Payments are used appropriately and in line with meeting the outcomes defined in the care plan. Generally, a separate account, details of receipts, etc are needed to evidence appropriate management of funds.

OK - geetee kindly helped me out of my restraints 😉

There are two issues here
1) how to get the best out of the current system
2) how to improve the current system

1) as shown I do not know all the details of the current system especially in England.

Some form of direct payment / self directed care type agreement as outlined above is the best way to get adequate care but you must be realistic as to what this would involve. It can be a lot of work to arrange and IMO works best for young disabled not frail elderly but if the older person has someone who can take over the management then this might well be the best route. Be realistic about what it would entail and how much of your time you are prepared to put in. Everyone has their limits for what input they can give into care of their relatives and these limits vary. If you end up going beyond the amount of input you are happy to give then you end up resenting it and family relationships can be affected adversely. Caring for relatives can be very hard indeed and I have seen people take on too much ending up with resentment and stress and the breakdown of the care arrangements

If you cannot do the direct payment / self directed care route then you are reliant on the social services to organise the care.

Be prepared to question the assessment and to ask for explanations of why decisions are reached. Do not put up with care that does not suit because thats all thats offered. One key issue that comes up time and time again is early bedtimes. Most care providers will not do visits into the late evening so the "tuck up" visit to put them to bed cannot be arranged at a time to suit the person receiving care. Now the statements of how the care will be offered will include things like " holistic and person centred" If the person receiving care was a night owl that never went to bed before midnight then a 7pm tuck in is not "person centred or holistic" so you can challenge that on grounds that its not meeting the minimum standards set out. It will be a very difficult to get it altered but study the documentation and use that against them. "holistic and person centred" does not mean " you will go to bed when the carers are available" It means the care must be arranged to suit the person not the service

If you want to get good service the recipient of the service needs either to be able to stand up for themselves or to have a strong advocate to speak for them. Monitor the service being provided carefully and I would have covert cameras if the recipient is not able to speak up for themselves - not just for the ( fortunately rare) serious abuse but to pick up on the inadequate care, the shortened visits, the late visits and the low level poor care, the carers drinking the person tea and spending part of their visit time taking a break. The sort of thing that is commonplace IME is a half hour visit only actually being 15 mins as the carer has to make too many visits in the day and travelling time is not paid or accounted for properly. Traffic jam on the way to a visit = shortened visit. That sort of thing. My friends care visits supposedly for half an hour actually varied from 10 - 25 mins. Do not rely on the documentation the carers fill in and leave. Get objective measures of the time they spend in the house and what time the arrive and leave.

Be prepared to complain if the care falls below the standards set but you MUST have good evidence to back up the claims other wise it will be dismissed. Insist of being present at the case confernce that decides the care needed and be prepared ( and I mean do your preparation ) to question and to argue for the care the person needs. Personally check the documentation the care provider has for the training etc of the career and then subtly check with the carer that what is put on paper is actually what is done.

2) how to improve the current system.

Firstly once again it comes down to money. care is provided on a lowest tender baisis. this encourages corner cutting and poor standards. It needs to be taken out of the private sector completely. This was done purely as a cost cutting exercise because direct council employees get council terms and conditions of employment which are far superior to those offered by private care providers.

Minimum standards of training must be increased hugely. These are lone workers going into vulnerable adults homes. The care should be done by professionals not minimally trained people. No one should be allowed to either go into a vulnerable adults home or supervise trainees without significant training. Currently the carers are completely inadequately trained. SVQ level 2 ( NVQ in england???) should be the very minimum standard before someone is allowed into a vulnerable adults home unsupervised and even this is barely adequate.

Care should be provided in a person centred way ie the care shuld be what the patient wants not what fits in with the system.

I would prefer that actually councils went back to only doing "home help" type care and that all nursing are which includes what is defined as personal care as above in the post becomes the responsibility of the NHS with care needs being assessed by district nurses and delivered by a mix of district nurses and NHS care assistants.

far more supervision of home care is needed

Pie in the sky due to costs you might say. I say we are rich country and we can easily afford it but its a political choice to underfund the service to keep taxes down

Finally I strongly believe that those with assets should be using them to pay for care. why should the state pay for care so that middle class children can inherit. Protecting peoples assets means that the general taxpayer subsidises middle class peoples inheritances

I tend to agree that the challenge with SDS is the degree of responsibility that comes with it. It seems to me that the position of many with care needs would make the management of carers activities (or indeed staff management if they choose to employ a carer) very difficult. Even for younger adults who retain full capacity, this is difficult. Putting it crudely, how do you go about a disciplinary issue with the person you've employed to wipe your bum?

On the other hand, I'm aware of examples where it has worked extremely well, supporting a person with considerable physical disability to run a successful business. You are quite right about the simple questions of 'bedtime'.

I have some different thoughts on your views of 'the system'. The quality of commissioning and procurement varies hugely between authorities - as of course does the standards of in house care they are able to provide. That said, it isn't correct to say all care is private sector - many of the Scottish authorities retain a large home care workforce, and operate residential care services too. Alas, this is no particular guarantee of quality.

While it is possible to deliver private sector services at lower cost, this is a factor of overheads, pay rates and of course pensions, sick pay and holidays. Typically procurement of care will address both quality and cost (not simply a lowest cost exercise), the authorities that are good at this tend to operate a mixed market model which includes public, private and third sector organisations. The good ones are making inroads into outcomes based commissioning, which shifts the focus away from the tasks and towards the wellbeing of the individual receiving care and support. That's not easy!

I'm not quite sure I follow you on training standards - my reading of the SSSC registration requirement is that home care staff need to hold SVQ2 as a minimum (for historic qualification, SNQF6 in new money I think) - this would need to be in place for a registered service, so effectively this is the minimum standard already.

Clear and separate roles is another discussion probably, but is at odds with the policy of integration. In my mind one key advantage of integrated services is that fewer callers get to know the person receiving care better. rather than a load of strange faces visiting.

Is that svq for staff working in care homes or in the community? certainly around here home care ( not care home) staff do not have svq - they may be " worjking towards" but certainly do not have it. It takes a year or more to obtain via the usual pathway.

From my understanding the usual training is minimal before they are allowed out on their own.

Home care - [url= http://www.sssc.uk.com/registration/what-qualifications-do-i-need/find-out-about-qualifications?qualified=1&service=adult-services&category=support-worker-of-adult-services&role=worker-in-a-care-at-home-service ]SSSC[/url]. Have a look at the 'past practice qualifications' section.
Actually, having checked, it is similar for Residential Care. Working towards is reasonable in my mind (we all need to learn), but maybe some time constraints would be smart.

'should' and 'do' aren't always the same...

Interesting - its obviously being tightened up

Please note: Workers new into their role after 2 October 2017 [b][i]should[/i][/b] achieve registration within six months of taking up employment in this role.

In other words they are closing the loophole of "working towards"

I would not allow them out on their own until they had the qualification. turnover of staff is so great that I bet many do not ever get the SVQ.

an FOI on this might be interesting to see what % of the care workers actually have the SVQ

Yes, maybe just to you and me though...

I've seen a worker's employment discontinued for not meeting those requirements (in a LA), but don't know the numbers for private agencies.
Careful wording of the FOI might be needed for that. I'd be interested to see what you get back (but you may well have realised I'm not in a position to raise the request).

I think turnover, and the need to get folk on the routes probably means they do get sent out earlier than might be ideal. Sorting conditions of employment and reducing turnover is what's needed to solve that one.