Educate me: Ireland

(... and in anticipation of anyone thinking this is me trolling, no, it is a genuine request because I am genuinely this stupid when it comes to world history and I want to be Better.)

You could do worse than watch this as a bit of background:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0gd27b7/union-with-david-olusoga-series-1-3-the-two-nations

It goes back a lot further than the Troubles

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b00yyc7b/story-of-ireland

However, if it's specifically Troubles-era stuff you're interested in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0ff7cg0/once-upon-a-time-in-northern-ireland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0f9ctf1/endgame-in-ireland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m001kv47/the-house-of-paisley

Belfast Born, moved over here before i was 5, born in 1977

Politics of it all i never understood

Crazy stuff i do remember

My grandad retiring from the Ulster police, and handing his revolver back

An army squaddy squatting at the end of my road looking down the barrel of a rifle

going through turnstyles into built up areas, being metal detected by hand and going through metal detectors into high street shops, as a small child, all patrolled by soldiers

armoured landrovers everywhere.. road blocks, heavily armoured police stations

having to go across wasteland and a stream to get home one day because a whole road was closed off due to a bomb scare

ends of houses with murals for either side, and being told my my mum and uncle (as an adult re visiting in the 2000s) that we can't go down those streets as they are catholic

My father told me a story about when he was a teen having to jump through windows of a house to get away from hails of bullets

All crazy stuff, and a lot of memories for such a short period of living there

will be following with interest as i too am in the same boat.  never really understood ireland, nor israel/palestine, and never really felt the need to so far.  sometimes its nicer being in that 'ignorance is bliss' bubble, hence i dont even watch the news, havent seen any of the recent atrocities, just read about them on here.
this is where i get my news, as unless it deteriorates into keyboard war, then i find most posts tend to match my own thinking.
thanks for the thread, i should end up a little more knowledgeable from it.

if it’s specifically Troubles-era stuff you’re interested in

I don't know enough to form any sort of option on what I might be specifically interested in. I just want to be less of an ignoramus.

Start in the 1500s and then work your way forward. Be warned that history is frequently written by the winners of conflicts etc. etc.

The very simplistic one is:
Ireland was colonised on and off over the centuries with varying levels of success (random fact. One pope said Ireland belonged to the English King. One pope was English. Guess the shape of the venn diagram) and what became Northern Ireland was, oddly from our modern eyes, the area which was most native Irish.
Under James the 1st and the 6th this was ended (by war) and a very deliberate colonisation project started to wipe out the Irish culture there. Unlike previous colonisation efforts large areas of land were seized and towns created on them populated by English and Scots who had to be protestant in order to keep them separate from the locals.
This bubbled along with several unsuccessful uprisings until the successful war of independence in 1919 (incidentally one historical what if is whether it would have been successfully prevented if WWI hadnt happened since there were a lot of discussions going on how to better represent the Irish immediately prior to WWI).
However due to how NI had been settled it meant there was in the 1920s a majority there who wanted to remain in the UK. In order to end the war the partition therefore happened.
There was then the Irish civil war immediately after since the peace treaty terms didnt satisfy everyone.

Which brings us to the last fifty years.
We start of with a protestant majority and catholic minority who are (broadly speaking) pro remaining in the UK vs pro joining the rest of Ireland.
The demographics start to shift against the protestants which makes them nervous and there is also victimisation of the catholics in terms of jobs etc which leads to the start of the troubles.
Whats often missed is the British troops were originally sent in to protect the catholics but due to factors beyond me managed to end up antagonising them instead.

I believe the “shouty bloke” you refer to was the Rev Ian Paisley (who was a Protestant) Sinn Fein was fronted by Gerry Adams and Martin McGinness who had to have voiceovers when on the news because of the association with the IRA.

the news was full of the IRA telling people they were going to blow them up, then blow them up. 🤷‍♂️

There was an excellent sort of dramatised documentary in Radio 3 many many moons ago - these sort of layered testimonies of people growing up in various conflicts - enduring violence - experiencing some sort of horrific pivotal moment and resolving to take a side. It was all collaged together-  child soldiers in Africa, the Taliban, Northern Ireland and so on. What was intriguing was you didnt really know where each story was leading - the same background and experiences could lead someone to join the police or a paramilitary, become a UN Peacekeeper or join the Lords Resistance Army. I only happened across it half way through on a late night drive. Wish I knew what it was called as I'd love to track down a copy of it.

What was quite facinating though was it revealed different government's philosophies in addressing insurgency. The USA see's its leader as 'Commander in Chief' - the top of a chain of command that leads directly to the soldier on the ground and it sees its terrorist organsiations as being the same - its always fighting its own shadow - so it exercises a strategy of 'Decapitaton' believing that removing the head of an organisation will defeat it - So you knock off Sadam Hussain or Bin Ladin and expect that whole organisation will collapse. What happens time and time again is it becomes apparent that one leader is keeping 10 pretenders to the throne in check - non of whom you know anything about and are now all out to make their own mark- you go from. fighting one know enemy to 10 unpredictable ones. What the US could never really do with Bin Ladin though was find any actual link between Bin Ladin and any of the actions attributed to him. Even on the day he was killed the headlines changed from describing him as 'the man who masterminded 9/11' in the morning to 'the man who inspired 9/11' by the afternoon. There was no chain of command as much as the US wanted to believe there was.

The UK - as a country that has been managing the decline of an empire for a century  has always behaved very differently in relation to insurgency and rebellion- the one thing they / we aim to do is to always leave leaders in place. That way you have an organisation that is lead by someone you know the history and motivations and morals  of and know  how they operate which makes predicting their actions easier. The whole thing oddly becomes more gentlemanly and sporting as those leaders somehow feel validated by it all -  It lead to the weirdly cosy arrangement in NI of having agreed procedures for giving notification of an attack.

As a Southern Irish person I am still learning about some of the recent history as we were relatively isolated from it all. My wife (Catholic) grew up in the North during troubles and obviously has seen loads more than me. Including regular army patrols across her dad's farm and wife, mother and siblings being barricaded into house while dad sat up all night when the friendly protestant neighbours came a calling around the 12th of July.
I've listened to some of the The Troubles Podcast which found interesting about lots of the period.

Edit - just remembered an issue we had this summer, problem with water supply to the farm. We couldn't find the water coming line onto land. Turns out, as they were catholics water board/ workers wouldn't fit it late 60's/ early 70's so no official record. My now deceased father-in-law and his brother had to dig/ lay it. Lovely time to be alive in Norn Ireland

We didn't start it...but suffered from Norman imperialism. It's not the sort of thing that I like discussing via the internet.
One of my very middle class English mates did a tour of Ireland 2 years ago and now has a very different perspective.

On enduring memory I have as a child was trying to fathom why one man was standing spreadeagled against a wall with a soldier crouched beneath him.

Of course I now know thats how the British army used Irish locals as human shields.

My family on my Fathers side originates from Ireland, in the county of Derry. I think it goes or originates at or around the 10th century.

Mothers side is from South of the island.

Whats often missed is the British troops were originally sent in to protect the catholics but due to factors beyond me managed to end up antagonising them instead.

Back then Catholics in NI were being denied civil rights which certainly didn’t help matters.

The demographics start to shift against the protestants which makes them nervous and there is also victimisation of the catholics in terms of jobs etc which leads to the start of the troubles.

Lots of inaccuracies try;

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/how-the-troubles-began-a-timeline-1.3987076

The plantation of Ulster, with people loyal to the James the sixth/first. Ironically presbyterians fleeing religous persecutiion in Scotland

A star named Henry by roddy Doyle is quite a good fictional story based on elements of early 20th century Ireland.

funnily enough, I had to try and sum this up recently. My partners nephew (11 y/o) asked me if i was in the army cadets when i was his age and i had to explain why my family arent big fans of the british army - Mums from norn iron and we from the nationalist community. This meant nothing to him so i tried to explain the whole thing in summary as best (and neutrally!) as I could. This is what I told him...

Many hundreds of years about the British / English invaded and colonised Ireland. Whilst not very nice, this wasn't a uniqely evil thing for the brits to be doing. The whole history of europe is countries trying to take over one another. Once Irish had been taken over, the brits did all the sorts of things colonisers do. They suppressed Irish culture, especially the language, eg renaming towns. They helped create (or at least made it a catasrophe) a famine which killed a lot of people (~25% of the country). They gave the land they conquered to their own people - a lot of scottish protestants, especially in the north of ireland. More on them later.

The Irish weren't best pleased about that, but Brits were strong so not much they could do. This simmered away for a few hundred years until WW1 when there was a rebellion. The rebellion wasnt actually massively popular with the irish ironically, it was quite a niche interest. However the british crackdown to the rebellion was absoultely brutal, with the army massacring civilians. This changed everything and the rebellion became a much bigger thing.

At this point the brits were kind of done with ireland, WW1 had take a huge tole and they really didnt need it. So they tried to cut a deal. The deal was that the Irish could have their own state, but the brits would keep what is now northern ireland. The border was drawn so that in northen ireland, the decendants of those britsh protestants would be in the majority, and the decendans of the irish natives would be in the minority. This deal split the rebllion, one faction wanted to take it, and one wanted to keep fighting. There was then a civil war which was as awful as they always are. The faction that wanted to take the deal won, and the Repulic of Ireland and the British province of Northern Ireland were now a thing.

This takes us from WW1 to the 1970s. Ireland did its own thing and was a deeply odd country by western european standards, verging on a catholic theocracy. Northern Ireland was also not the most cheerful of places. It was a very poor place, all those britsh folks, we'll start calling them unionists now because they want to remain a part of the british union, worked factory jobs for not much money. They built things like the Titanic. They werent well off, but they were in a better position than the irish minority, well start calling them Nationalists as they want to be part of the Irish nation. The Nationalists were way less likely to have proper jobs - the factories were closed shops, they were much poorer.

The working class unionists weren't all that thrilled about being poor. This gave their politicans a problem, so they choose to blame everything their resident miniority group - the Nationalists. Some of the unionists took this too far, rioting and attacking the Nationists. It got quite grim as the local police werent able (or willing, they were all unionists!) so the Brits back in London sent in the army to rescue the Nationalists. The Nationlists welcomed the British army, making tea for them on their doorsteps, which is quite the plot twist.

Good relations between the nationalists and the army didn't last. The nationalists were also unhappy with their lot, particularly not (really) having the vote. They took inspiration from the civil rights movement in the USA that was happening at the time, and mostly peaceful protests and demonstrations took place. Unfortunately, the brits didn't much care for it and thought that The Paracute Regement would be good people to police a demonstration. They weren't and once aagain the British army was killing Nationlist civilians.

This period of time is known as 'The Troubles' it is charactarised by terrorist attrocity and government reprisal, and the two communities, Nationalist and Unionist becoming more divided than ever. This is the time that may parents and grandparents lived through and it was dreadful. My grandfather owned a small business. Some Unionist neighbours decided that he shouldn't, so they told the authorities that he was a terrorist. He wasn't - he hated the terrorists, saying they were '10% idiot romantic dreamers, 80% straight up opportunistic criminals and 10% psychopaths that are in it for the murder'. That didnt matter of course, so the army came to the house at 3am, and dragged him out by his hair infront of his screaming children and taken away. He was imprisoned without a trial (interred).

He got out eventually, and had a run in with the terrorists later. My uncles aged 10 and 8 at the time, found an arms stash. Granda came home from work to find two piles of bullets divided up (one for me, one for you) and my uncles playing cops and robbers with real pistols. He did the only responsible thing, and phoned the authorities, and the army came round and took it all away. Next he called the local IRA man (i know this sounds wierd, but its a very small place, everyone knows everyone), and told him that if they didnt want the army taking away their weapons, they shouldnt leave them somewhere children can find them. He got a bullet posted to him every now and again for the rest of his life, he died aged 89.

This cycle of violence and these sort of stories carried on for decades. For us it culminated in the Omagh bombing - families home town. My pregnant aunt walked past the car bomb and into a shop a couple of doors down when the bomb went off. She was cut to ribbons and we knew many of the people who died.

Of course, these sorts of things dont happen any more so the cycle of violence did end. It's hard to work out what the exact moment things started to change, but theres a few important things that happened along the way.

Nationlists legitimate political grievences were addressed - they got the vote, the previously racist police force was disbanded and replaced with a representive one with Nationalist members. Previously the nationalist community was totally powerless, if you were the victim of a crime, you eiher had to suck it up - or ask the terrorists to deal with it. They'd ask for something in return of course. This undermined civilian support for the terrorists. Unionists had also to acccept these reforms, and some very brave people chose to do so. Brave because there were Unionist terroists too. Some didnt accept them and still don't.

In addition, the British found new ways of dealing with the terrorists. It turns out that the bunch my granda described as 'fools, criminials and pyschopaths' were easily corrupted. Quickly the number informants almost matched the number of true belivers and the British spies knew about every attack before it happened. The also changed their military tactics, using special forces to conduct 'extra judicial killings' aka Murder on people they strongly suspected of being terrorists.

So between reforming the governance and dealing with terrorists differently, eventually things got better. Joining the EU helped alot. It removed the need for the hard border. Nationalists who lived and worked in Ireland proper could come and go as they pleased as a dual national.

That took a lot longer to write than it did to say. I am not a historian, i have no doubt over simplified the wrong things and i am of course, biased. Still, best I could do and I did try.

Id recommend the book 'Milkman'. Its very good, and gives you a much better impression of what it was like to live through that historical facts.

my son has loads of books and is really interested in modern Irish history/ the old IRA/ Micheal Collins etc  and could probably tell you all you want to know from that era from the Republics point, but for me living way down in Cork, the troubles are not something I know a lot about other than my brief time spent there many years ago.
My experience…..
first came to Republic of Ireland in 98 with work and been here pretty much since. Learned not to call the UK the mainland pretty quick. Drank lots. Had a great time and even met my wife. <br />Went up north for 6 months too in 98. Had a great, but scary time. Being Scottish everyone asked what team I supported, I stuck with Dundee Utd. Was told a few things (not sure if pulling my leg or any truth in them) avoid the black cabs and don’t drive directly behind an RUC Land Rover. Was unnerving seeing the armed soldiers at road blocks etc. Had a hire car from the ROI when I went up at first and quickly learned to avoid driving through red/white/blue kerb stone painted areas during marching season (had no idea what marching season was) as the car reg upset the locals. Changed the car, got one with a uk reg, it upset other locals in the Green/white/orange kerb stone painted areas, so finally settled on a Northern reg car. Was in Omagh about 1hr before the bomb went off (worked in strabane at the time), and was pulled over by the cops a little later as I sped away from Strabane (overtook an unmarked car), not knowing at the time what had just happened down the road. Couldn’t work out why they were so agitated and I thought they were being a bit tough on me for speeding as they searched me and the car and then told me what had happened a few miles away and ****ed me right out it! 😳. One of the women I worked with in Strabane used to say her teenage son and their friends would wind up the RUC and lob things at them for fun!!!  Had to go to Banbridge after their bombing to help our work clear up. Stayed a few weeks in the Ballymac in Antrim, great hotel. Apparently it was a UFF target some years earlier! So some nervy times. The people I met were all great, just a bit cautious about where I went and what I said.

It's a very complex issue - and best read round and digging deeper to investigate and form opinions.  

TBF you are unlikely to get a balanced view here either.  But British rule, suppression of the Catholics, the Irish Famine, the Battle of the Boyne, sectarian hate, distrust of Catholics / Catholic Church and in modern times the continued ritual of grown-up wanting to walk through "enemy areas" wearing orange sashes , and prior to an during "The Troubles", the anti Catholic views of the police, state and major employers, control of drugs, prostitution, arms , extortion , smuggling, gang warfare, control of neighbourhoods, punishment gangs,  the influence of the Roman Catholic church on the Southern Irish state until relatively recently.

The British Establishment was very anti Irish 

The BBCs "Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland" is a good place to start - speaking to those who were involved as to why they were involved.

The Republic of Ireland's neutrality in WW2 adds some background to the history.

Tens of thousands of Irish citizens volunteered to fight for GB in WW2 and Allied aircraft were allowed to overfly Ireland

The "troubles" are much more complex

In later decades the UK provided air cover over Ireland to supplement their Cessna 172 aircraft whenever threats were detected.

Ireland used Cessnas until 2019 and the two countries have been close for longer than you'd imagine.

Nothing to add other than my grandad remembered hiding from the Black and Tans when he was little down on the Dingle Peninsula. Other than that he hated to see the news about the IRA in the 80s as he thought it gave all Catholics a bad name and found it embarrassing to be associated with them.

I think he had a fair bit of abuse for being Irish and Catholic when he came over here as a navie on the roads just before WW11, a time when guest houses etc still had signs saying 'No Black's or Irish'.

As a soldier I spent a third of my 23 year career in Northern Ireland with my first tour in 1986 and my last in 2000.  I did 6 month roulement tours on my own and a couple of 2 year tours accompanied by my family. I have served all over Northern Ireland - Belfast, Lisburn, Maze, Bessbrook and Crossmaglen in South Armagh, Omagh and Derry/Londonderry.  My army trade was 'ammunition technician' and my job there was 'IEDD'.  Improvised Explosive Device Disposal.  I came away with a 'mention in dispatches', a 'Queens commendation for bravery' and memories which still sometimes keep me awake at night.  I've been spat on and bottled whilst trying to render a bomb safe, shot at and had bombs explode in the near vicinity.

On one of those 2 year tours in the late 1980s we lived 'outside the wire' in a housing estate in Lisburn which was mixed in with civilian housing and completely unprotected.  My wife and then toddler daughter learned not to answer the door to anyone, how to check for booby trap bombs under the car before they got in it and how to pretend they weren't a soldier's spouse/child if asked - convincing no one.  There were under car booby traps exploding killing drivers and close quarter assassinations of off duty UDR and policemen in the surrounding streets whilst we lived there.  One time my wife and child were trapped in a shopping centre after an off duty RUC man was shot in the face by the IRA and the police dropped the shutters at either end to contain the gunman in the shopping centre where my wife and pushchair seated daughter were!

On a later tour my (by then 2) kids went to a local school and learned the significance of the inevitable question 'are you catholic or protestant'?  Made more complicated because I was (nominally) CofE and my wife Catholic and my kids were neither! We are all confirmed atheists now!  I have loads of 'war stories' of my experiences taking bombs apart. Not just IRA - but INLA, UVF, RHC, UDA etc. We were equal opportunities bomb disposal operators!

Despite all this I have many happy memories of a beautiful country and (mostly) warm hearted people.  My son was born there (entitling him to an Irish passport the jammy sod).  I made lots of friends, some of whom I still keep in touch with.  I don't have a blinkered ex squaddie view of the conflict.  There were evil things done by all sides - including of course the British Army.  I never witnessed any of that and am proud of my role which (collectively by my unit- not specifically by me) saved lives.  I could talk about this subject for hours, I have studied the history ever since I first went and continue to do so, but I'm still learning. 'Complicated' is very apt.

Despite a few idiots, Northern Ireland is completely transformed since my time serving there.  Thank god for the GFA and all on both sides who had the courage to step up to the plate.

I think he had a fair bit of abuse for being Irish and Catholic when he came over here as a navie on the roads just before WW11, <br /><br />

Hell we got that growing up in London in the seventies, hopefully it has died out now, that and the UK is no longer the lure it once was.

Couple of bits:

The trouble was really geographically isolated for the most part.  We all knew where to find it and where to stay away from so mostly people led a normal life.

Since no one's mentioned, the 1916 Easter Rising was initially extremely unpopular amongst most Irish people but the unnecessarily brutal reaction by the British soon changed that.

I went to a mainly Protestant school and learnt our history roughly from Henry VIII onwards.  We were left in no doubt that the way the British did things in Ireland left them responsible for the mass death an migration brought about by the famine.  I feel they'd have done it to their own people just as readily though.

My dads cousin was killed in an IRA bomb so I'm pretty much against Sinn Fein but it would be nice to have an alternative to the unionist parties.

Brexit has brought a united Ireland closer by many years but given half of NI looks to London for it's media that's still a long way off.

Mrs S is from Co. Londonderry (guess which faction, for the non-Northern Irish here). We got married out there and if I was using the BIL's car there were places I could not drive through on pain of being shot up at the other end of the village. Also had to check the car after every parking stop. We brought her parents back to Suffolk for a break after the two lads were shot in Belfast after taking a wrong turn and ending up in a Nationalist funeral.

Same BIL got married after the car had a device attached to it while he was visiting his girlfriend to collect her for a night out! That was an interesting wedding, the bride was part of a sect that did not have musical accompaniment at their services. The chapel was out on "the Moss" and we had one photo outside the car before the security officer moved us on. (There was a patrol out there somewhere, thanks chaps, and an observation helicopter overhead).

Since the GFA the nephews now work in Bannbridge with Catholic workmates and very integrated. Hopefully  the corner has been turned and there is no appetite to pick up the Armalite again.

IT's a lovely part of the world and the people are generally very friendly, my ulra-English (RP) accent can sometimes irk some of them but we can now book AirBnB's in parts of the province my in laws used to visit only at night and wearing face-camo while carry SLR's.

I don't discuss politics with the brothers as they are now of an age where they have rather entrenched views, my MIL had a respectful regard for Martin McGuiness before he died, despite him being the commander that ordered the bomb for their house in the 70's and her last vote was for SDLP from 80+ years of voting OUP.

You could try E  F Foster's Modern Ireland 1600 to 1972.  I found it very readable and it covers a good chunk of what you want to know.

I grew up on the opposite sides of lots of the above and my missus still wakes up screaming in the middle of the night about army at the bedroom door.

However that is now a world - an age ago.

This:

"Despite a few idiots, Northern Ireland is completely transformed since my time serving there.  Thank god for the GFA and all on both sides who had the courage to step up to the plate."

Thats the new world: sworn enemies bit the bullet, smudged over some terrible stuff, thought about what comes next. The next generation. And here we are. Brexit shakes some of the foundations. But IMO it took enormous courage to get to this.

Interesting thread. I'm still learning. Born and raised in a protetsant estate in Belfast, only left 9 years ago to come to this kip. Only a protestant by the fact my family were. I'm not religious, I hate it. Granted, it was a war of occupation.

I have family members that were involved in the forces, in various ways. I recently learnt for example, that one of my grandas was forced out of thier family home for being a policeman in the RUC. A protestant removed from a protestant estate. I had an uncle who's house was petrol bombed. My dad was almost murdered walking home from seeing my mum one night in the 70's. It's a very complex issue that I don't think I'll ever fully understand. Thankfully, I grew up without hatred. I even managed a 6 year relationship with a girl from West Belfast. Our families had no issues. I wonder sometimes if how I viewed it all has shaped me more than I think. I remember vividly thr Omagh Bombing, the Shankhill bombing. Gazelles constantly overhead, every day, every night. Sitting having your dinner watching a Army have a nosey down your alleyway, and the next day sitting in the back of a landrover looking through their rifle scope, as kids.

Some fascinating experiences shared here. Thank you.

a couple more vignettes...

All my uncles and aunts gained university educations thanks to the british taxpayer. Most stayed in England or went to America after uni. My uncle though, went back to NI and worked as a civil engineer for the government, one of very few Nationalists to do so. For some reason it took about 10 years longer than his peers for him to gain chartered status. Predjuice was suspected as the gov had to sign off on people getting chartered, and it was obvious by his name which community he was from. Ought to just be a rubber stamp job though, it was for all of his unionist colleages. A few years ago (well after he retired) he managed to get all the paperwork for the chartership process via a freedom on information request. All the denials were there - no reason give, just a signature...Arlene Foster.

One of my cousins fell in with the wrong crowd and became radicalised. He was 15 at the time, on his bedroom wall on day all the posters were rock bands, cars etc, the next they came down and up went bobby sands and tricolours and balaclavas and gunmen and the rest. He'd spend a lot of time ranting about the brits and the cause etc. He was managed to be talked down in the end, but quite a few favours were called in to get the right people to talk to him about why it was a terrible road to go down. Very frighting for his parents - this was about 10 years ago so they though they were done with the troubles.

Yes thanks to those sharing your experiences.

OP, the David Olusoga, Union program gives a good context of the sectarian issues within Europe and the plantation. Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland is also worth watching, as honest accounts of people's experiences and feelings and how they've changed, or not.

One interesting point, it was Presbyterian's that led the demand for self governance in the pre 1800 rebellion, but Westminster deployed the two time honoured strategies, soldiers and divide and conquer.

The Rest is History did four podcasts that cover the background to Irish Independence and its legacy, which are worth a listen. Once upon a time in Northern Ireland is widely well reviewed but I haven't seen it. Haven't watched Olusoga either.

I feel they’d have done it to their own people just as readily though.

They did at Peterloo which was around the same period.

The Rest Is History podcasts are a good primer and fairly balanced, if you can stand a lot of plummy English chortling.

just before WW11, a time when guest houses etc still had signs saying ‘No Black’s or Irish’.

Someone always rolls this out - and there's no evidence for it whatsoever. Supposedly it was a very common sign and yet there are no photographs of it and no contemporary reports of it at all. It makes no sense whatsoever. There have beem black people in the UK for 400 years, and yet before Windrush they were statistically immaterial. Why would people put up signs to deter a community of black people who they had literally never seen? It would be a total anachronism.

https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/was-there-anti-irish-racism-in-britain-in-the-postwar-period/

That's not to say there wasn't bigotry against Irish people and racism against black people. Of course there was. But some things are folklore and some things are history.

PS most of my "heritage" is Irish.

I believe the “shouty bloke” you refer to was the Rev Ian Paisley (who was a Protestant)

The self-ordained Reverend Ian Paisley I believe (I say that as a Catholic myself btw) was a rabble-rousing towering bigot and huge obstacle to peace in Northern Ireland.

Here are some of his choice quotes:

"They breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin"- talking about Catholics at a loyalist rally in 1969.

"Save Ulster from sodomy!"- his slogan in a 1970s and 80s campaign against legalising homosexuality.

He claimed that the Pope was the "Anti-Christ"

Loads more here:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/the-sayings-of-ian-paisley-1.819530

Ian Paisley did however mellow considerably in his final years and to my total astonishment he stood on the floor of the House of Commons in 2001 and declared :

"There is no difference between the tears of a Roman Catholic mother and the tears of a Protestant mother. They are both mothers, and they both have the same feeling and the same love"

That ^^ has always stuck in my head and I in fact paraphrased him when I said on the currently closed Palestine/Israel thread yesterday that there is "no difference between Palestinian tears and Israeli tears".

The self ordained Reverend Ian Paisley

A lightweight. Over here we had Pastor Jack Glass.

If ever there was a character synonymous to Glasgow, it was Pastor Jack. Rumour has it he went straight to heaven(1936-2004) as the devil was terrified of him.

The Irish weren’t best pleased about that,

A masterpiece of understatement

Further to my waffle above, a few random images from the album.

And a few more....

May I just point out here that as a white male of Anglo Saxon protestant descent I am the baddie in everyones story.  I feel oppressed

I found it best in Ireland to when anything historical came up  "that would be my ancestors being beastly to yours again?

Apologies blokeuptheroad - you are being serious I am being drunk and flippant.

I cannot imagine how it must have been to be a squaddie in amongst it all.

It's a shame I don't have more pictures of hillwalking in the Mournes with my daughter, fishing in Lough Neagh, watching the road racing at Portrush, live music and beer festivals at the Ulster hall, getting pished at Daft Eddie's and a hundred and one more happy memories. Good and bad memories, thankfully more of the former.

None taken tj 🙂 I've had a few scoops myself and this thread has stirred a few old ghosts.

Just to add, as nobody’s mentioned him yet, but Cromwell did his bit to disrupt relations between Ireland and Englandas well. While on his way to Bristol to stir things up, some of his troops took some time off to destroy the village church in a little hamlet not far from me, where there’s a family grave. It took the Victorians to restore it to use. Tastefully, too, for a change. It seems sectarianism was just as rife between the English as well. Plus ça change 🤷🏼

Someone always rolls this out – and there’s no evidence for it whatsoever. Supposedly it was a very common sign and yet there are no photographs of it and no contemporary reports of it at all. It makes no sense whatsoever. There have beem black people in the UK for 400 years, and yet before Windrush they were statistically immaterial. Why would people put up signs to deter a community of black people who they had literally never seen? It would be a total anachronism.

I totally agree. IMO it is an urban myth which is used to illustrate very genuine discrimination which existed against black people.

It is claimed that signs saying no Irish, no blacks, no dogs, were placed in the windows of premises advertising rooms to rent. But it makes no sense at all because firstly the term black was never used to describe a black person.

The word used in the 50s and 60s would have been 'coloureds', although possibly occasionally negro. In the 50s if the word black was used at all it would have been considered hugely insulting, much like the n-word. It only became acceptable during the 60s when black people decided to take ownership of the term and declare they themselves were proud to be black, despite the fact that they are not of course black.

Secondly discrimination simply didn't manifest itself like that. The Irish certainly didn't suffer the level of discrimination that black people did, that's also a bit of a myth imo, but where they did it wouldn't have taken the form of notices on the windows of rentable rooms, they just would be told that the room had been taken when they applied for it.

Finally it would be the default situation that dogs would not be allowed to live in rented rooms. There would have been absolutely no reason at all to put a notice up informing people of something that they already knew.

A 'dogs welcomed' sign would be more likely, if they didn't have a problem with dogs. The 'no dogs' claim was simply added to suggest that Irish and black people were put in the same category as dogs.

Just to add to my above comment. Any prejudice against the Irish would not have been culturally, religiously, or racially, based imo, but class-based.

Irish immigrants were overwhelmingly working-class and often from rural Ireland.

"Irish navvies" were considered uncouth because of their low class status, and legendary ability to drink large quantities of alcohol.

For those reasons there might have been a reluctance to provide them with rented accommodation.

IMO it is an urban myth

I've no opinion, but a short Google throws up some reasonable suggestions that there were versions of it, even if not the same wording.
Not aimed at you ernie, but denying people's memory of racism is an odd thing to do.

‘It Was Standard To See Signs Saying, ‘No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish' | EachOther
No reason to doubt No Irish, no blacks signs | Letters

The alledged sign is an urban myth imo, certainly not the discrimination against black people which was very real indeed. As to some degree was prejudice shown towards Irish navvies.

Shit the bed.

A lot of reading, thanks all. Please don't hijack this, I wanted it to be edumacational.

Under James the 1st and the 6th this was ended (by war) and a very deliberate colonisation project started to wipe out the Irish culture there. Unlike previous colonisation efforts large areas of land were seized and towns created on them populated by English and Scots who had to be protestant in order to keep them separate from the locals.

Reading this made me think of what the Israelis' have been doing in Palestine (Gaza +the West Bank) for decades.

See also the Russians in Ukraine, Crimea and Georgia

Fascinating thread.

1994-1998 my work took me to Eire and NI. Starting in Belfast and then Dublin, Cork, Limerick, sometimes Waterford.

By the end there was no obvious transition between the countries as we’d drive along the N1. Earlier it was different.

On famine the British have some practice, one earlier example being the starving of India.

BTB did a 3-parter on the Great Hunger https://tinyurl.com/BTB-the-Irish-famine

Supposedly it was a very common sign and yet there are no photographs of it and no contemporary reports of it at all.

Yet very genuine looking pictures of such signs were featured in a work training course back in the early noughties - the history of rent control being a pretty dry subject without pictures!

On famine the British have some practice, one earlier example being the starving of India.

BTB did a 3-parter on the Great Hunger https://tinyurl.com/BTB-the-Irish-famine<br /><br />

Thomas Keneally’s Three Famines is an interesting read, drawing parallels between the Great Hunger, Bengal and Eritrea.<br /><br />

Just to add to my above comment. Any prejudice against the Irish would not have been culturally, religiously, or racially, based imo, but class-based.

As per someone’s comment on the Palestine thread, thanks for taking the time to patronise us on our experience of discrimination. Being called catholic or Irish bastards is obviously a class based comment.
As an Irish notional catholic growing up I always felt GB to be anti-Irish and anti-Catholic . Not at the level other minorities experience but always there. That may be changing now or maybe Ive changed.
For those with an interest in Irish culture, especially with a tilt towards its presence in GB the Irish Cultural Centre has numerous events

https://irishculturalcentre.co.uk/

The alledged sign is an urban myth imo, certainly not the discrimination against black people which was very real indeed. As to some degree was prejudice shown towards Irish navvies

I'd ask my grandad if he was lying, but he's passed. My mam is suffering with dementia and she brings out the stories all the time, and about how people would bang on their door and tell them to **** off back to Ireland (whist crying about it). She also witnessed the signs down in London when a kid. Although she wasn't obviously Irish (no accent) she even got agro for her surname and wearing a crucifix. I guess she's lying too?

After my mum finished her first year at uni in halls, as the organised person it fell to her to find a house for her and her pals. She got a list of numbers to phone, and lettings offices to visit. Strangely, every single property has just been let shortly before she called. After a couple of weeks of this, she got one of the english pals to do the visits / calls. The previously let properties were magically available again. This would have been the late 1970s in North London.

Any prejudice against the Irish would not have been culturally, religiously, or racially, based imo, but class-based.

I don't think either the Guildford Four or the Birmingham Six were arrested and falsely charged and imprisoned becasue of their class.

On famine the British have some practice, one earlier example being the starving of India.

Below is a link to a good letter on The Famine. Ireland’s population has never returned to its pre-famine levels. Strange how effectively genocide so close to home never gets taught in British schools.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/usa/about-us/ambassador/ambassadors-blog/black47irelandsgreatfamineanditsafter-effects/

Strange how effectively genocide so close to home never gets taught in British schools.

There's huge amounts of British colonialization that's still to be reckoned with, and the education that children receive these days is much more nuanced than it was in my time, when one of my primary school teachers repeated the "quarter of the world was pink" line while pointing to a map, My wife's Canadian, and born in the mid seventies, and she can remember singing God Save The Queen at school on the Queen's birthday.

Some good reading here. Thoughtful posts, personal experience shared and signposting to credible sources for those wanting to know more. Dakuan's potted history and poignant personal slant was the stand out for me.

I'm peased also to see that people have been respectful and measured in their comments. It's a raw, emotive subject for many I know, but I echo Cougar's plea above that we keep it that way. It would be great for this to rumble on for us all to learn from, without being wrecked like many historical or political threads do 👍

@blokeuptheroad I don't suppose you remember where had lunch with the German shepherd? Backdrop looks remarkably like in-laws farm and the dog is very like theirs too. They are based outside dungannon.

To counter some of my previous examples - family came back to farm after being in town for a bit once, to find a note on the gate. Squaddie had noticed cow in distress and helped her have a calf. Good effort.

I bought the Black 47 film on Prime and not had the stomach to watch it yet. There is a graveyard between Sneem and Kenmare where 30 people died of starvation - on one day and were massed buried. Meanwhile food was being exported out of the country.

@northshoreniall. I don't remember exactly but it wasn't near Dungannon on that occasion. It was rural Fermanagh right next to the border. The German shepherd was an Army explosive search dog and he flew there with us in a helicopter.

Cheers, remarkable resemblance both land and pup.

 I wouldn’t know where to begin.

To go back to Cougar's OP, if you're looking for the modern and current reason -  in the sense of the last century and a half rather than scraping back past Cromwell, Elizabeth, and all the way back to the Normans, of the conflict between Ireland as both part of the UK, and separate from it, then honestly Black 47 is as good a place as any to start, it marks a division point, not only for Ireland, but for many parts of Europe (see the 1848 revolutions)

There is a graveyard between Sneem and Kenmare where 30 people died of starvation – on one day

Where exactly is that, would like to see it.
We have the workhouse ruins outside Cahersiveen near us and the lane approaching it is still called The pauper's road.
Very close to the site of the Bahaghs massacre, for more  modern sad history
https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/lifestyle/prisoners-of-conscience-when-silence-spoke-loud/27379496.html

Ireland’s population has never returned to its pre-famine levels.

I only learned that recently myself - quite incredible

Where exactly is that, would like to see it.

Templenoe old cemetery. My mistake it was 40 on one day.

i wanted to know some irish history for a long time.It was never taught to us at school in the 60s and 70s, and only ever heard one side of things.Never knew any irish
I didnt find out im part irish until my late twenties

Were some Irish were sold as slaves,in the west indies? I read about it once

There was a slave trade raid on Baltimore in Cork in 1631 which is quite famous.

https://www.historyireland.com/from-baltimore-to-barbary-the-1631-sack-of-baltimore/

Were some Irish were sold as slaves,in the west indies? I read about it once

There was extensive use of penal transportation including for the prisoners of war during the civil war.
I think most would consider it effectively slavery and for several of the locations were people were sent effectively a death sentence pre anti malarial and other medical treatments.

There was extensive use of penal transportation including for the prisoners of war during the civil war.

The civil war took place in the nineteen twenties with no penal transportation  😉 this is a thread about Irish history 

The civil war took place in the nineteen twenties with no penal transportation 😉 this is a thread about Irish history

More than one civil war and I thought the context was clear enough. Although I should have probably used the war of the three kingdoms instead thats still not in common use and would have been equally confusing.

Ireland’s population has never returned to its pre-famine levels.

There are still the ruins of various pre-famine hamlets dotted around the landscape in Tipperary where a chunk of my family hails from. The giveaway as to what they are is the abandoned churches.

As to some degree was prejudice shown towards Irish navvies.

I was in a pub once listening to an Irish "rebel music" band (just come back from a successful tour in the US) where they were singing the various "No Irish need apply" etc songs. Rest of the people on my table were muttering "rubbish".
Which could be discounted as lazy English prejudice aside from it was a rural pub in Ireland and it was my dad and his childhood friends. All had come to England for a while with my dad staying and the rest returning after a while.
My dad worked as a spark on the building sites and says he didnt experience anything beyond lazy stereotypes but nothing more than a scouser/cockney and so on would get. He suggested one factor was even though he wasnt a big bloke a lot of the hodcarriers and plasterers assistants (the blokes who stirred massive pots of it) were also Irish and so anyone deciding to insult my dad for being Irish would likely have some brick shithouses of men inquiring if they should also feel insulted.

I guess experiences vary.

Were some Irish were sold as slaves,in the west indies? I read about it once

One has to be a bit careful with this kind of thing. The "Irish slaves" meme has been appropriated and exaggerated by (American) racists to justify a persecution complex and downplay the awfulness of African chattel slavery.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/19/how-myth-irish-slaves-became-favorite-meme-racists-online

Probably impossible to get an accurate view on Irish history! I live in NI, born here in the early 70's and lived through many troubled times and worked in some difficult areas. I'm not going to detail any history but rather give a recommendation for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_O%27Doherty

Malachi is a decent commentator/author/journalist, his recent books on reunification and the problems with Ireland etc are very good reading.