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So looks like Edinburgh is going to ban pavement parking.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67381938
As a fairly infrequent visitor, normally once a year, it seems like a great idea to me. However having said that I'm normally within a couple of miles of the city centre, and I can't say I've noticed much pavement parking.
They say no additional staff are required to enforce it, which makes sense in the centre, as there always seems to be a small army of inspectors. Don't know if it's the same in the suburbs.
I know there are a few locals on here, be interesting to get their thoughts.
As an aside at my sister-in-laws place (not Edinburgh) most people park with a couple of wheels on the road as it's a narrow ish street. But still plenty of room for a double buggy to get by. Whereas on my estate a few people pavement park and there's really not enough room to get a double buggy through.
I'd be really interested to get the thoughts of anyone who has experience of using a guide dog or who uses a wheelchair, as it's not somerhing I have experience of or exposure to in my day-to-day life.
Sounds like great news...hopefully other areas will follow suit. The village I live would be making a couple of grand a day with this - if they had the bodies to police it.
I don't see the harm in drivers having to park further away and walking a wee bit...would be good for passengers as well.
(Clearly with above, I don't do this myself but do experience the annoyance of it)
No personal experience of wheelchair but I do see many having to drop onto the road to get round the cars, which never seems right.
My sister in law suffered the indignity of falling out of her wheelchair whilst trying to negotiate a pavement parker, the sooner it is banned (& policed) UK wide the better. Even as an able bodied person having walking space squeezed makes walking places less pleasant than it could otherwise be.
Around me its was mainly stopped a year ago. Roads that used to allow parking each side so everyone pavement parked are now restricted to parking on one side so no one does any more. I think there has been enforcement
Two of these roads you used to have to walk in the road. No room on the pavements. No more
Pavement parking is never right. Pavements are not built for the weight of cars and get broken. Its antisocial and disadvantages those with mobility issues. Its the height of arrogance to do it.
Leith walk has a real issue with this. the new cycleway is constantly blocked by folk parking on it and they have to drive over a curb to do so
I'm all in favour of cracking down on it.
Come to Sheffield, it’s a popular pastime here. In theory the council have put an enforcement order (or something similarly named) to allow it to be applied in the city centre but no one seems to take any notice of it. My commute home along a road called Abbeydale Road is easy to witness upwards or 50 cars parked in the freeway, in bus lanes or on pavements.
In fact it’s so popular it’s got its own Twitter account.
https://twitter.com/bryony_who/status/1650773912802787328?s=46&t=1kaMBPZvR769qDSJ741llw
The Scottish government was right on the cusp of a nationwide law before COVID dropped. Seems to have been quietly sidelined
Excellent, I look forward to the Social Media dismay on ECC Facebook posts.
Its gonna be fun! Round by me (shore area) the council blocked off a couple of roads used by ratrunners. the outrage on the local FB pages was great fun.
Wish it would come to Bristol but I think we are past the point of no return now
Part of the issue is surely the increased population density due to splitting up Victorian terraced houses into flats and HMOs
the law gives councils the power to ban pavement parking. Passed in 2021 IIRC. Implementation was delayed due to covid
You are correct, missed the restart. Seems a little limp as laws go. Parking on pavements should be illegal. Full stop. This forcing councils to address the issues rather than the cheaper do nothing.
I rather hope someone drops it onto my local FB page, they managed to have a long rant about a cyclist not using a cycle path this week. No idea why really, we have zero congestion in town and the road the cyclist was on is wide, and mostly straight, If you cant safely pass a cyclist on that road with mininal delay you probably shouldn't be driving.
In fact it’s so popular it’s got its own Twitter account.
Same in Bradford
Wish it would come to Bristol but I think we are past the point of no return now
Double edged sword, you remove pavement parking in the narrow streets around Bristol and it'll mean numpties parking up on the road and blocking vehicles galore.
Biggest thing is, you can ban them from pavements in Edinburgh or wherever, but it's enforcement that's the issue, it's all good city centres being cracked down on, but it's the housing areas that suffer from this mostly, my area has loads of issues with bad parking already, we have large vans, etc parking next to crossings, parking next to traffic islands, on corners of roads and so on, a lot of us complain to the council, but nothing happens, ever.
Not up to the council to provide storage for private cars though?
Yep, sounds great. As long as it never gets done in my road as not possible to do otherwise.
exactly. that land you park on is worth thousands. A fair rental for it would be at least a thousand a year. Thats what a street parking permit should cost. Why should a minority have the right to hog that road space making life less pleasant and convenient from the rest?
Scotland - pavement parking is against the law from 11 December 2023.
It's now up to local authorities to enforce it (probably through enforcement officers as for current parking fines).
There'll be a funny two-phase thing. Generally people park partly on the pavement becuase the road isn't wide enough to accommodate both parking and two-way traffic. If parker's obey the law you get congestion or even complete blockages. To solve the congestion you either have to do the easy thing - which is just ban parking on one or both sides of the road (which causes issues for residents who then have nowhere to park) or you have to implement a one way system, or maybe both
Phase two is - having realised neither those things work - the council paint parking bays on the street that are half of the pavement so that everyone can park back where they were before
This from Inverness’s cycling mayor:
https://twitter.com/flutterbyknits/status/1721493343920640367?s=46&t=VlnTbr36HbbeUf7htf7B5Q
Potentially similar schemes elsewhere in Scotland.
I don’t this solves the problem on its own but it’s a step in the right direction
The city centre of Edinburgh is a shit show though when it comes to traffic. Any sensible city of equal size would´ve banned cars years ago. The fact that roads like the Royal Mile or Princess street isn't wholly pedestrianised or just buses/trams is just incredible.
Princes street - it is no cars for most of it. Two short sections where cars go on it to allow them to make north / south journeys ( Its male not female 🙂 common error tho)
royal mile is also partly pedestrianised now
Disgusting this is why we pay pavement tax.
They say no additional staff are required to enforce it, which makes sense in the centre, as there always seems to be a small army of inspectors. Don’t know if it’s the same in the suburbs.
those guys are paid on some sort of bonus/incentive scheme for issueing (valid) tickets - so if there’s problem areas they’ll definitely go there, easy pickings!
The city centre of Edinburgh is a shit show though when it comes to traffic. Any sensible city of equal size would´ve banned cars years ago.
I agree it’s a shit show (although I think Cardiff is worse!) but completely banning cars is near impossible - everyone in the city believes they are a special case… what you can do though is make it very difficult to park them for a long period which disincentivises bring a car to the city without necessarily buggering up the people who believe they would be adversely affected by a no cars rule.
Drac, it’s ok - you’ll still be able to pay pavement tax - it will just be at a higher rate for the special people who are entitled to park there! Last time I took a car into Edinburgh it cost about £20 for the day and I had to hunt for that space - I wonder if the fine is big enough to put weight the convenience factor!
Its male not female 🙂 common error tho
Holy Cow, I´ve never noticed before! Every day´s a school day
Double edged sword, you remove pavement parking in the narrow streets around Bristol and it’ll mean numpties parking up on the road and blocking vehicles galore.
Then you'd be liable under Rule 242 of the Highway Code:
Rule 242
You MUST NOT leave your vehicle or trailer in a dangerous position or where it causes any unnecessary obstruction of the road.
It's a towable offence, so a nice little money spinner for the council - if that makes motorists even more indignant, they can believe it's a con.
It's simple, as stated above; it's not the responsibility of councils, societies or any other group to provide parking for free for private citizens. It should be their own (grown-up) issue to sort out, with a healthy application of rule #1.
As if by magic a good example of pavement parking when taking the mutt out for a walk. Good luck getting a wheelchair through there.
It would be a shame if while you squeezed past you knocked the wing mirror
Nearby me a car was parked blocking the entry to the water of leith path. There was no way to get thru without touching the car. I squeezed thru with my bike knocking the mirror. I came back a couple of hours later - the car was all scratched down the side ( not by me) such a shame. No car has parked there since that I have seen ( the parking is used by a restaurant)
which causes issues for residents who then have nowhere to park)
But according to the authority on all things city living you don't need a car if you live in the city so I don't see the issue* if your living in a house with no parking
* Tongue in cheek .... It's plainly obvious what the issue is.
But I am in favour of no pavement parking it's hard enough navigating as an able bodied adult with a child's pram. Makes it near impossible for Someone in a wheel chair or a partially sighted.
It's going to a long time to get anywhere close to resolving it.
Often people are parking half-up the curb because they genuinely think they're being courteous, as it means someone can park the opposite still and not block the road, which is admirable...if you can't see beyond everything being about cars. (ironically they do it down our street, with a primary school at the end and the pram pushers are forced into the road)
Tackling curb parking forces more badly parked cars onto roads, which people will say is a result of lack of carparks.
None of it means squat unless it's all going to be enforced - and no-one wants to touch that as all those people have a vote.
No pain, no gain.
Part of the issue is surely the increased population density due to splitting up Victorian terraced houses into flats and HMOs
100% this. Where we used to live , one of the houses was converted into a HMO and was responsible for adding 7 additional cars into an already overcrowded street. Not helped by the road opposite being turned into permit parking only. Only half those residents objected to having to pay , so used to park in our road. I’m only bitter because I had the audacity to park in the end space one day, to load my car ( there was a single parked car in a 100 metre street !). I was ten minutes ish in the house up in the loft getting something out, and when I got to the car I had a parking ticket !
So glad when we moved to somewhere with a driveway.
Have you noticed these days the rules for parking within a certain distance of a junction seem to have been just thrown out of the window ?
Down here they park up to the corner, and even round it, thus making pulling out of the junction a major exercise. Who is responsible for policing that ?
It would be a shame if while you squeezed past you knocked the wing mirror
I like to do it when out running. Best outside the chippy with people in the car 😀
the law gives councils the power to ban pavement parking.
Would be better the other way around - a centeal government prohibition except locations specifically permitted by councils
What would also be helpful is an end to the Pickles prohibition on councils using mobile cameras to enforce parking.
None of it means squat unless it’s all going to be enforced – and no-one wants to touch that as all those people have a vote.
Parking is enforced in Edinburgh. Leith walk has 2 wardens on it all day every day and others travel around the city. there is also a really easy mechanism for reporting via the council website
That marked parking on the pavement is mental. I can't believe that's real! If I lived there I would be kicking up stink about the safety of pedestrians trying to cross the road (particularly kids) as the field of view is awful with cars parked both sides. The main problem with all the whataboutery and local restrictions comments like street width ignores the fact that cars are not the king, people are. We need better, safer cities to walk and cycle and scoot and wheel round.
Local authorities should perhaps do what TJ said and tax all street parking. That might dissuade some car users and also bring in revenue to keep up the shite roads. Edinburgh is an absolute bombs are for cycling round. Potholes and terrible speed humps galore!
I celebrate the Edinburgh ban. As a resident Edinburgerian.
Sheffield is spectacularly bad for unbelievable parking. I can't imagine what goes through the minds of some people as they leave their vans blocking entire pavements, junctions and blind corners.
Then again it's also horrible for road quality, congestion, dead ends, one way streets. It's basically entirely awful for any kind of driving.
The fact that 1 in 3 cars is a bloody giant SUV or pickup truck is the icing on the cake.
I work with guide dog owners (and visually impaired people in general) in Wales and pavement parking is a nightmare in lots of places. It'll be interesting to see if other areas do the same
Unlikely Trusty as its Scots Gov policy which means its bad which means labour and tories will oppose it. Maybe in wales - their first minister seems to have a bit of sense
its Scots Gov policy which means its bad which means labour and tories will oppose it.
At the risk of bringing facts into the conversation, Labour abstained on Transport (Scotland) Act 2019. Liberal Democrats and Tories voted against it.
Edinburgh Council (which will implement the policy on the first possible day) is controlled by Labour. It will be the first council to do so. Apparently none of the SNP councils are keen enough on Scots gov policy to have plans to implement it...
https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/transport-scotland-bill
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13481/labour-to-lead-council-in-edinburgh
Wales may well do their own thing, Mark Drayford likes to go his own way on things (20 mph speed limits etc)
exactly PCA - the labour party will never support any policy the SNP introduce in Holyrood. Even when its london labour policy. Now the law has passed they will use it as its actually popular in Edinburgh. that is NOT the same thing as suppoorting SNP policy. they will never do that.
As for facts. Labour are running edinburgh council in coalition with tories and lib dems. Labour do NOT control the council. They are not even the largest party
the actual results were SNP 19, labour 13, lib dem 12, Green 10, tory 9. Labour cannot govern without Tory support.
Green and SNP = 28 seats. labour and Tory and lib dems 34. Two labour members had the whip removed for refusing to go into coalition with the Tories - I don't know how that panned out in the end.
I would bet the enforcement of pavement parking law is coming from the lib dems as a part of their price for being in the coaltion but I do not know
Can you name one SNP or Green policy labour have voted for at Holyrood? They follow the Bain principle and have done so since the first SNP government
Editted - I have totally confused myself!
that is NOT the same thing as suppoorting SNP policy...I would bet the enforcement of pavement parking law is coming from the lib dems
Absolutely wild that you think that Labour actually implementing a certain policy means they will oppose it, that the SNP failing to implement a policy means it is in favour of it, and the Lib Dems (who in fact voted against the policy) must secretly be the driving force behind it!
Only concern I have about this is the implementation or rather information side of it, how do you fairly communicate something like this to visitors, when it's just one city or I think actually council area? Quite a big ask, I think. Not to defend shitty parking but it's so completely normalised at this point that it does need to be handled right.
(not sure if there's anywhere within Edinburgh itself that this applies, but I can think of a load of EH postcodes that might be edinburgh, might be midlothian but have those sort of "double pavements" that are designed as parking, which currently seem to be in a bit of a grey area and which the DVLA apparently consider to be both pavements and roads simultaneously...)
Pca. Labour are NOt implementing it. Labour do not control the council.
Labour didnot support this measure in Holyrood
Im curious about the "double pavements for parking"
Any streetview links?
Pca. Labour are NOt implementing it. Labour do not control the council.
Absolutely wild that you deny Edinburgh City Council is a Labour council, despite what the council and the media say.
It's a very revealing: "this is a good SNP policy, therefore Labour will hate it, and therefore if a Labour council implemented it, it means it wasn't a Labour council". All of this is contradicted by the facts which have been shown to you, but it doesn't seem to matter.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-seize-control-edinburgh-council-27070476
And the worst offender for pavement parking in Leith is...drum roll...
The mobility scooter shop with its wares blocking half the pavement!😃
In Edinburgh the suburbs are patrolled by wardens.
fairly communicate something like this to visitors, when it’s just one city
Shouldn't have to . Parking like a **** has crept in. If you park like a **** your fair game for fund generation
@tuboflard Sheffield is ****ing mental, legend has it Luc Besson wrote the script for Taxi after a visit.
I'm from Edinburgh, but left in 2004.
This seems like total madness.
Is the council still broadly made up of the same people who thought up the tram, implemented the tram and are now redoing the tram?
There are loads of streets that will be completely impassible with a car on either side.
Surely if they are going for this, those streets need yellow lines down one side?
piemonster
Full MemberIm curious about the “double pavements for parking”
Any streetview links?
Sure, here's a good example.
https://www.google.com/maps/ @55.8681811,-3.1794061,3a,46.7y,338.79h,82.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suNhDYBnR0HOrIM0t3JmkyQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
There's a bunch of this out on the south side of the city. They're concrete reinforced grass and sort of boxed out with concrete verges so they're really clearly seperate from the pavement, and they stop around drop kerbs, crossings, etc, but they're not painted or signed parking bays either. They're definitely for parking but I don't think they have any legal status as a "parking place".
Surely if they are going for this, those streets need yellow lines down one side?
Which is what has been done around my way.
PCA - its not a labour council. I put up the numbers of Councillors. Its run by a coalition of labour tory and lib dems and labour are either the 2nd or 3rd largest party depending if they let the two refusniks back in. Its a simple fact.
@Northwind, re that pic, I thought double yellows and zigzags both meant you couldn't park, and both refer to the full width of the highway which normally includes pavement.
But I'm not much of a parking nerd so might be missing something..
There are loads of streets that will be completely impassible with a car on either side.
This is not a good argument against a pavement parking ban. If there's nowhere on the road to park there's nowhere to park. You find somewhere else. It's not an excuse to occupy the pavement. There's no reason for motor vehicles to be anywhere but the road.
I thought double yellows and zigzags both meant you couldn’t park, and both refer to the full width of the highway which normally includes pavement.
Yes, that's definitely not legal parking.
thecaptain - by my understanding they should not be parked there either. If I lived there I would be reporting that daily
Here is another road with double width pavements used for parking. NO yellow lines in this case and plenty of room to park on the road. Not even an obstruction in this case but they are going over a kerb to park there<br /><br /> https://maps.app.goo.gl/iqsvNiyYYqGaifr99
@northwind @piemonster gets another example in Roslin. My mind goes straight here when I read pavement parking. The pavement is double wide used for half on half off parking, which spills over into parking half on single width pavements further down. It's terrible for pedestrians but literally nowhere else for residents to park without causing the same problem.
It’s terrible for pedestrians but literally nowhere else for residents to park without causing the same problem.
then they ave to park somewhere that does not obstruct the pavements. Its really simple. If you cannot park legally and safely in one place then you need to park elsewhere. there is no right to park by your house, there is a right to have unobstucted pavements
this one annoys the hell out of me but is actually legal - as the land in front of the buildings where the cars are parked actually belongs to the buildings<br /><br /> https://maps.app.goo.gl/vHH5bfNkjcnRUrQU9
Don't get me wrong TJ, I'm all for it. This is just an example where I see it causing a lot of grief for residents but will benefit pedestrians.
Hopefully it will be implemented in Glasgow soon too.
Enforcement is obviously an issue but if it reverses the normalisation of pavement parking then I'm all for it. It might also stop my local pet hate, which is people using the pavement to park their second car because it's more convenient than using their driveway.
Edinburgh needs to revise the permit situation. There are streets that are virtually empty because the houses are big enough not to need on street parking. But nobody is parking there because of the need for permits, this then causes congestion elsewhere.
Does Edinburgh not have park and ride?
It has park and wait a long time for a bus to Princes Street then another bus for where you actually want to go.
Is that what you mean?
The busses in Edinburgh are great. The bus routes in Edinburgh do absolutely nothing to promote not using a car.
When did you last use public transport Josh?
Edinburgh has a very good public transport system. there are designated park and ride. there are train / tram stations east west and south of the city where you can park. You can get all day travel on the buses for less than a few hours parking charge. newcraighall park and ride is 50p for parking per day Buses run less than every 15 mins plus trains every half hour. trains take 11 mins to the city centre, bus 40 odd mins
Sherrifhall - parking free, plenty of buses.
Plenty of other designated park and ride or unofficial park and ride options
Lots of the busses cross the city centre
I imagine most park and rides do the same, take you from the outskirts to the centre, in this case Princes St.
You would imagine wrong.
For example from newcraighall the 30 takes you east / west right across the city to Juniper green ( not that that would make any sense as a park and ride) but you could use it to get to the west end for example but almost no buses terminate on princes street
Or from ~Sherrifhall the 29 crosses the city right to silverknowes going thru the northern parts of the city, the 33 goes thru the centre and out to the bypass in the esat going right thru the west end
Or ingleston - tram right across the city
Almost al Edinburgh bus services go into the city centre then out again. very few terminate in the city. Most do hit princes street to make it easy to transfer to another "spoke" service
thats only a few of the alternatives. If you want to check fill yer boots. You could get to almost anywhere in the city from a park and ride if you chose the right par and ride place
Does Edinburgh not have park and ride?
More to the point, who actually drives in Edinburgh?
Suburban station, short train ride, zero hassle.
TJ those "pavements" are badly designated but you can clearly see the intent behind them. They also appear to leave plenty of room for pedestrians so what's the problem? Cheaper to do than extending the road as they were likely grass strips in a former life.
Also looking forward to a surge in monoblocked gardens and all the water displacement that brings. Not a reason not to do it but a bit of joined up thinking would have been nice.
I don't thinkt hey were ever grass. Certainly not for the last 30 years. While it is true you can park on them and barely obstruct the pavement it still does prevent you from walking side by side ie supporting someone with mobility issues and still ruins sight lines for crossing the road but I did post it to show that a one size fits all solution is not always best. Whats needed there is a normal width pavement and parking bays
Like all things motoring , it needs a couple of zeros stuck on the fine. That would surely pay for a dedicated motoring police force. That silver car above would be costing the driver at least £1000.
If the road is not wide enough to have two lanes of unimpeded flowing traffic with no parking off the highway then parking should be banned. End of problem.
You don't buy a cow if you don't have a field do you?
TJ those “pavements” are badly designated but you can clearly see the intent behind them. They also appear to leave plenty of room for pedestrians so what’s the problem?
Part of the problem, and arguably a very large one, is the gradual reduction in available space for pedestrians, which erodes standards of living. It just makes for a very unpleasant environment, unless you're in a car of course, and so there's only really one obvious outcome of that.
It also normalises this behaviour everywhere, regardless of how much or little space there is.
More to the point, who actually drives in Edinburgh
Residents without parking apparently
Just to clarify, I was talking about Northwinds post.
tall_martin
Full MemberThere are loads of streets that will be completely impassible with a car on either side.
Surely if they are going for this, those streets need yellow lines down one side?
Yep. I mean, it's not just a wave of a wand, there's a ton of other work that's going to have to be done to actually make it work in practice, and some of that's already happened and is still happening. There's been other moves on to variously restrict and formalise parking in a bunch of areas, like out in slateford or around my brother's place in Abbeyhill...
https://www.google.com/maps/ @55.9544814,-3.1515465,3a,75y,92.22h,88.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjrH-s-QP4EwivahEv1Y3OQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DjrH-s-QP4EwivahEv1Y3OQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D49.58757%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
NOT a one-way road. This one's interesting I think because on paper it's a disaster, but it's pretty much found an organic solution that's worked for a long time and that the residents have pretty much chosen for themselves. The road gets half-blocked but the pavements are clear, and it enforces a natural very low speed limit and totally prevents ratrunners. And still space for a fire engine. The changes are still in the consultation phase but looking at the plans I don't think anything proposed has any chance of working better than how it does now, it seems to be mostly about "making the road work as the rules say roads are damn well supposed to work" rather than the current "the road is actually doing a job really well by ignoring the rules".
If it were me I'd just stick as close to the current reality and make it One Way, but instead the plan seems to be to beat it back into a narrow 2-lane road with one set of painted bays and permits. Which I think is just going to reduce the amount of parking and speed up the traffic passing through, for what benefit?
butcher
Full MemberYes, that’s definitely not legal parking.
Quite likely true. But that's the point, it was built for parking and has been used that way for decades and, well, it works. Presumably there was some building phase when it was a done thing, you only really see it with that a couple of styles of house.
I guess the real point though is it helps show why it's not as simple as it sounds. The Fraser Avenue example's a good one too as that was almost definitely built to be parked on, but it's even less well defined than the one I posted where at least there's a division and a clear difference of construction between "walking pavement" and "parking pavement".
mattsccm
Free MemberYou don’t buy a cow if you don’t have a field do you?
Yeah, but might buy a cow if you've always been allowed to graze in the bit of grass near your house and everyone else does it and so did their dads and their grandads. I don't think there's any "right" to do so but I'm sympathetic to people who've done it responsibly and in line with social norms for a long time and then suddenly find themselves with a cow in the living room.
Responsibly andin line with social norms are not really the same thing. Roads round my way had pavements completely blocked with parked cars constantly. that was the social norm but by 'eck it ain't responsible when folk have to walk in the road instead
Northwinds picture I bet that was grass when built. so many folk parked on it it wrecked the grass hence the concrete reinforcing put in later. Just a guess tho but by the age of the houses far fewer folk would have had cars then