Echo chamber?

joambourgie - the hard right I refer to is those folk and they are not represented on here.  right wing we have a few. Centre right we have a lot - using right and left in the european sense - labour now being a party of the centre right

I can't win on the language " contrived and disingenuous" according to you. and too confrontational and direct according to jonv 🙂

I also believe its disingenuous to ignore the elephant in the room that IMO one of the main drivers for brexit was racism - often justified using those other issues,  That red wall vote was again IMO very much a racist vote

Nick Griffin, Combat 18 and the National Front.

But, on the other hand, I think we're all pretty confident that we could say how people in those groups voted in the referendum. Assuming they managed to lift their knuckles off of the floor to put the x in the box, obvs. How anyone on 'the left' justified falling in behind the likes of Farage is baffling. If in doubt, look at those around you.

one of the main drivers for brexit was racism

Well I don't agree so fair enough. That's your opinion and we'll leave it there.

But, on the other hand, I think we’re all pretty confident that we could say how people in those groups voted in the referendum

Oh absolutely, but what's your point? They probably align themselves with all sorts of other things too. Maybe even something you agree with! You massive, massive racist.

😉

I find that sort of phrasing passive / agressive.  But point taken

Also fine. There is an interesting point from it. One of the big misnomers in life to me is 'treat others as you want them to treat you'

Fine at a top level of being kind, respectful, etc., but misses the point that not everyone has the same triggers and warm spots. And if I want to have a constructive and meaningful relationship, meeting, debate, whatever with someone then it makes sense to try to work out what they are for them. If I just talk to someone using the kind of collaborative and validating speech that I like because it reassures me I'm being respected and listened too - and they find it annoying or passive aggressive, then it won't get heard properly. And v/v.

And to saucemerlin's point; it's not the same as making abhorrent points in pleasant language somehow making them OK.  JRM might be polite but he's still a ****

saucemerlin’s point

It was martinhutch and I altered the quote slightly to make it more generic.

But we are in the presence of true greatness on STW when it comes to the straight-faced wind up merchants who know how to stay millimetres inside the line and which buttons to push.

Doffs cap and leaves thread.

Lots more dual nationals on the forum now with passports from Belgium, Ireland, Sweden, Germany, France, the Netherlands… .

Woppit, Cougar, Woppit, oh and Don Simon.

Am I missing a gag here? The only way I'm dual nationality is if you're considering Accrington and Burnley. (Which wouldn't be all that wild TBF)

We are missing the hard right and the ideologivcal brexitters ( mainly)

>@tjagain not sure I'd agree about ideological brexiteers. I'd stated my view on why I voted for Brexit and still stand by that. However, it was really tiresome when voicing an opinion to be confronted by dannyh screeching BLUE PASSPORTS, RACISM and every other trope under the sun. Hence not many folk proferring different views when you're being blamed whereas it's the Government that their ire should be directed to.

Am I missing a gag here? The only way I’m dual nationality is if you’re considering Accrington and Burnley.

Politics and the B word aside ...
The impartiality of a curated group of people interested in something that can be sold is inversely proportional to the page rank.

Honestly, no one is forcing you to stay. Other forums are available, simple as.

Is the sort of comment definitely makes this an echo chamber... vs for bike stuff where its a astroturfing platform

For the bike industry it is somewhere they can pay to have people tell lies on their behalf and expect people to call anyone pointing out the emperor has no clothes is a troll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

"Why are you moaning about the new standard you'll still be able to buy the old one" is a prime example.

The term astroturfing is derived from AstroTurf, a brand of synthetic carpeting designed to resemble natural grass, as a play on the word "grassroots". The implication behind the use of the term is that instead of a "true" or "natural" grassroots effort behind the activity in question, there is a "fake" or "artificial" appearance of support.

It's no different to local "e-papers" (the stuff used to be in print) where marketing companies pay for "editorials" they wrote but ghost write under a "staff writers" name because these local e-papers are viewed as trustworthy sources.

See ‘hard right’ to me (and maybe it’s just me)

National front and co are the far right.
Hard right are, well, those who are to the right of the tory party.
Otherwise you just end up with a blob of the "right" which is just as useless as using the term "left".

For the bike industry it is somewhere they can pay to have people tell lies on their behalf and expect people to call anyone pointing out the emperor has no clothes is a troll.

Leaving aside the rather dubious accuracy of your claim.
Astroturfing isnt feeding of stories to tame journalists but instead fake grassroots organisations hence the name.
So it would need a few of us to set up the "new standards are more fun" group and then start spamming the forums.

No gag, Cougar, you just need to read the last line on its own. Woppit was banned over religion threads and donsimon was banned with several others in the great STW cull and has never returned. Can anyone else remember who got caught up in the cull? I think TheSouthernYeti was one who eventually returned but half heartedly.

What was the cull? Before my time.

The cull?  many would not see it as that but there was a period where there had been a series of nasty spats and personal attacks triggered by a small group of people who at least appeared to be deliberately creating friction for fun

There was an announced clamp down by the mods which result in a series of bans.  all for breaking the rules and all but TSY imo perfectly fair.  TSY got caught in it rather unfortunatly.  that action did reduce the nastyness that had been growing

You joined at about the time they were banned, jambourgie, were you one of them and have come back with a new pseudo? 😉

Edit: did you think Don Simon's ban was fair, TJ?

Echo chamber or not there are definitely a few voices on here that are a tad unhinged.

There was a cull? Is this the same universe as Ransos being banned for very little?

did you think Don Simon’s ban was fair, TJ?

I don't remember.  I know at the time they all bar TSY seemed fair enough to me.  I might have been banned myself at the time

Personally if I had been in charge there would have been a bunch more bannings.

Astroturfing isnt feeding of stories to tame journalists but instead fake grassroots organisations hence the name.
So it would need a few of us to set up the “new standards are more fun” group and then start spamming the forums.

That's rather old hat ... Astroturfing has evolved to simply taking over narratives in established grass roots organisations. As one of the main beneficiaries Wikipedia (or other grass roots platforms) is hardly up to date.

Personally if I had been in charge there would have been a bunch more bannings.

All the ones who were ganging up on you. 😉

And in reply to our jam snob: je le savais !

there are definitely a few voices on here that are a tad unhinged.

IMO it makes the place more interesting. I enjoy the entertainment value of hearing binners being described as a brexiteer and dannyh's reappearance every couple of months.

You never quite know what to expect on here.

Is this the same universe as Ransos being banned for very little?

We're never going to agree and there's no need to be snarky. You think I was guilty of an egregious breach if the rules and I think you got it completely wrong.

Wheras I enjoy watching the logical contortions folk who claim to be lefties go thru to give unwavering support to a labour party that has morphed into a centre right party and folk who claim to be remainers giving that same unwavering support to a party of brexit 🙂

Anyway.  Streeting picking unneeded fights with the BMA while supporting increased privatisation?

Put it on the Starmer thread, TJ, you'll only get people echoing agreement in this one. I do agree BTW.

Woppit was banned over religion threads and donsimon was banned with several others in the great STW cull and has never returned.

Woppit was banned for being outright offensive on religious threads despite repeated warnings asking him to tone it down, if I remember rightly. I don't recall Don Simon getting a permanent ban, I thought he left of his own volition, but you may well be right.

There was a time where the more problematic posters would get a couple of weeks off over Christmas just so that the admin / mods could get a break. I don't remember any permanent cull but again I could be wrong here.

Generally speaking, STW doesn't censor forum content, it moderates behaviour. It would be highly unusual to get a ban before getting a warning unless it was what might be termed gross misconduct. "We've told you twice and you're still doing it so have a break for a few days" is a far more likely scenario. Banning is a last resort.

There certainly was a period where we were all warned that the mods were going to clamp down and that clamp down did result in a series of bannings

I believe that the reason a lot of folk find the bannings unfair is they fail to understand its a private playground here that we can enter on sufferance.  Its not a democracy.

Shouty stuff cuts both ways, though, especially when it comes to the B-word.

On other social media is it hardly ever a remainer who throws a hissy fit when their motivations are questioned and then unravel in five seconds flat when scrutinised. The issuing of threats of physical violence and/or suggestions of what sexual impropriety someone gets up to with close relatives is pretty much a one-way street too.

I guess it must the stress of winning or something.

I believe that the reason a lot of folk find the bannings unfair is they fail to understand its a private playground here that we can enter on sufferance.

For me, it's that moderation is not necessarily consistent with stated policy. Ultimately I agree that they can do they want.

It would be highly unusual to get a ban before getting a warning

Generally minutes to an hour between the two, how often do you check your e-mails on the server you signed up to STW on, Cougar?

Far more useful would be a warning on the thread concerned but then people might heed it and you wouldn't be able to ban them. (not you personally obviously as you're no longer a mod)

On bannings and moderation.  I have zero issues with any of the trouble I have got into with the mods.  Infact if I had been in charge I would have probably modded me harder if you see what I mean

I could niggle and say that a firmer hand earlier I might not have wound myself up into a long term ban but thats more than nitpicky

the long term ban I got I knew would be coming because I absolutely ripped into a troll poster against the rules.  I just didn't expect it to be so long term. 🙂

If folk complain the modding is too soft and others too harsh then its probably about right.

the mods are human and volunteers.  some inconsistency is natural and unavoidable unless you had moderation by AIs.  You can appeal decisions as well

The idea that mods manipulate things to give them an excuse to ban folk is well into tin foil hat territory tome.  I think if that was true Drac would have got rid of me yonks ago as i am sure I have annoyed him 🙂

They only hung tj up the right way the other day.

is this is still a cycling forum?

Mods don't need to manipulate things:

In addition moderators may suspend any account for any reason they see fit at any time.

They have absolute power. 🙂

You'd have to be very reactive to e-mails to get a warning though.

You have to admit that a warning that isn't on the thread isn't very helpful. The warning needn't even be personalised, just a general mod account any mod can use to intervene and say something like "read the forum rules people and consider whether you're breaking them because if you don't reign it in we'll ban anyone who steps out of line from this post on"

is this is still a cycling forum?

Yes, click "bike" up top. I ride lots of different bikes but don't want to argue about them and found more of my helpful well-intentionned posts on "bike" were dissed than in "chat". I'm happy to argue about Starmer but not the bikes I love to ride or how or where I ride them.

Its not a democracy.

The phrase that Mono coined forever ago was "benevolent dictatorship."

Generally minutes to an hour between the two, how often do you check your e-mails on the server you signed up to STW on, Cougar?

That's not fair. I'm talking about sustained behaviour over days or months, not minutes. And in any case, if you don't read your email then that's on you, an active email account is a prerequisite for site membership for exactly this reason.

Far more useful would be a warning on the thread concerned but then people might heed it and you wouldn’t be able to ban them. (not you personally obviously as you’re no longer a mod)

I can't comment on behalf of other moderators but I often did that. I started using <mod> tags to differentiate from regular posts as people would use it against me.

the long term ban I got I knew would be coming because I absolutely ripped into a troll poster against the rules. I just didn’t expect it to be so long term. 🙂

The long term ban you received wasn't due to your posting history.

Has anyone else noticed there seems to be an echo?

You did, Cougar, and it was very helpful.

cougar - I knew it would be coming because of the contents of that one post. 🙂

Has anyone else noticed there seems to be an echo?

More like a stuck record...

We’re never going to agree and there’s no need to be snarky. You think I was guilty of an egregious breach if the rules and I think you got it completely wrong.

I checked. It wasn’t mods who banned you that’s how much you broke the rules.

I checked. It wasn’t mods who banned you that’s how much you broke the rules.

I had guessed as much, but your comment is a complete non-sequitur, and I wasn't aware that you're an official spokesperson? In my view it was an arbitrary decision made by STW towers lashing out due to over-sensitivity about a botched forum upgrade. I was one of several people who cancelled their subscription over it.

TBH, I'd say there is a bit of an Echo in here I mostly find I chime with it but there's a few places I seem to rub up against grain.

I think any interweb forum is going to see that phenomena unless you completely ban all social and political discussion in which case you just kill half the point of a public discussion forum.

I'd say this place has a "Centrist consensus" flavour to it, with various contributors landing a bit to the right, a bit to the left on different topics. And TBH that's largely a reflection of the spectrum thought you'll find in wider social discourse.

The UK's "Social Narrative" is kind of tuned to that middle of the road frequency currently and it takes a while (too long) to nudge the dial TBH. Hence when someone pop's up on STW who is a bit "out on the fringes" of consensus opinion on a given topic, and says something a bit racist/sexist or speaks up in favour of ER or Statue topplers certain members of the forum that hold opposing views mobilise to shout them down. I've definitely participated in the odd pile-on, and TBH if you can't put up with someone challenging your opinions don't share them on the internet.

As emboldening as the anonymity of the internet is for someone with ideas, it's exactly the same for the people who don't share those views.

I don't think STW is particularly bad compared to other social media. As echo chambers go it's a pretty open one, there's no algorithm nudging people towards or away from the various threads, the primary topic of the forum tends to set the general demographics of the members but there's no fenced off groups (apart from the generally dead members only forum) and anyone can sign up for free and call me a prick for my shared opinions, and I reckon the defence/condemnation I'd get from the rest of STW would be proportionate to how far away from consensus centrist views I'd strayed, I reckon that's not so terrible, I can live with that setup and I can bugger off if it doesn't suit me, a bit like real life...

"Oh and from page 2 of this thread:

Biggest leftie echo chamber of any sites I’ve ever visited.

Honestly, no one is forcing you to stay. Other forums are available, simple as."

Yes. I pay for robs emtbforums. A forum that actually works and has bicycle related content.
And does quotes without needing to do a course in html.

Off you pop then.

Sounds like you're sorted elsewhere and yet... here you are. Strange.

Who tf are you to tell people to go to other forums?

Danny likes to pop off and pop back every couple months, so he probably feels qualified to speak about such matters 😉

Who tf are you to tell people to go to other forums?

He's a stranger on the interweb, it's his job 😉

Yes. I pay for robs emtbforums. A forum that actually works and has bicycle related content.
And does quotes without needing to do a course in html.

I can't take you seriously not while there's a 'B-QUOTE' button directly above the text editing box...

Why don't you go back to Rob's e-bike forum (I'm not into e-bikes myself) and tell them how shit STW is? I doubt they'll care what with all the content...
(Actually I had a quick Google; bugger me that's a lot of sub-forums and not a lot of news pieces)

its the refusal of STW posters to accept a sub forum structure that has kept this place relevant IMO.
biking and non biking was enough

any/everywhere else has to have seventeen million sub forums, while i personally would choose to remove the lefty politics and the ebikers..... that would leave the remainder more echo-ey

Yes. I pay for robs emtbforums. A forum that actually works and has bicycle related content.
And does quotes without needing to do a course in html.

So why do you keep coming back to hang out with all us lefty IT nerds? Can’t you just stay on the mobility scooter forum?

Off you pop then.

Sounds like you’re sorted elsewhere and yet… here you are. Strange.

Bang out of order IMo

Jeepers again.  I thought this an interesting topic.  I really did not mean it to end up like this and thought it a reasonably non contentious topic.  Might be best closed now

sorry mods!

its the refusal of STW posters to accept a sub forum structure that has kept this place relevant IMO.
biking and non biking was enough

Yep it is worth a look at Danny's mentioned https://www.emtbforums.com/ (there's a button for links too) there's a sub-forum for every manufacturer and the lead article on the front page is Sam Pilgrim leaving Haibike... It's cutting edge stuff.

Jeepers again. I thought this an interesting topic. I really did not mean it to end up like this and thought it a reasonably non contentious topic. Might be best closed now

You're very naive if you honestly thought this thread wouldn't end up heading downhill rapidly like it has.

It seems to be the norm on here when a few of the "big hitters" jump on a thread.

its the refusal of STW posters to accept a sub forum structure that has kept this place relevant IMO.

Agreed.  I like the mix and coming up against topics i wouldn't have seen otherwise without going through a million sub topics.  I'm not really sure it is an echo chamber though.  Yes we don't have the full spectrum of views here but the other side of that is that where I disagree with a view it is likely to not be so completely diametrically opposed to where I am that i am I'm unlikely to shift.

I over-stepped the mark there.

Apologies to Daveylad.

Bang out of order IMo

Not your fault, TJ, good thread idea, no need to close it.

Apologies to Daveylad.

Hope that apology saves your login, SauceMerlin, it's chore having to work out which of the nosiy new members is you. Hope you just stick around as SauceMerlin.

Not apologising to save my login.

Looked at objectively I reprised a post from page 2 of this thread on page 6(?) 7(?) for no other reason than to have a pop - not good on my part.

I'm probably going to go down the route of limiting my interactions on the politics threads on here to linking to news items that illustrate my point (mainly that Brexit is shit, admittedly) without comment. Let's face it, there's plenty to go at there (at least an item highlighting an absurdity per week).

Views are so entrenched on this stuff, no active argument I get into will change anything one iota, so what is the point beyond winding people up? None.

There's more I want to use this place for than that, and there's always an oven-ready plonker or two on FB or Twitter to dance circles around if needs be. 🙂

I read it as you realising you went over the top and apologising for it which is a thing many folk find hard

Jeepers again. I thought this an interesting topic. I really did not mean it to end up like this and thought it a reasonably non contentious topic. Might be best closed now

This has gone exactly the same way as the last 'Are we a bunch of middle-class ****s?' navel-gazing thread, and the one before that, probably.

Because, yes, we are a bunch of middle-class ****s.

It winds up people who would much rather not be reminded of how badly they ****ed up, so there's always that.

We might be more prepared to 'accept it and move on' if a few more apologies were forthcoming.

Does it really though? I'd wager it entrenches the opinions you don't agree with whilst simultaneously making you look stupid.

We might be more prepared to ‘accept it and move on’ if a few more apologies were forthcoming.

That's a belter! 😂

You could have a long wait...

What a strange way to spend one’s time. You do realise that it’s done don’t you? Was done some time ago, isn’t going to be undone and that everyone else has accepted it and moved on. You must have something better to than shouting into the void?

its not and never will be and will remain an issue well beyond the next election no matter how much you wish it away.  a majority now want to rejoin

I think you want the EU thread ———>

We might be more prepared to ‘accept it and move on’ if a few more apologies were forthcoming.

Apologies Cougar but imo that is a ridiculous, and frankly childish, comment!

National politics isn't some sort of playground game were you can interject "say you're sorry" before deciding what is the next appropriate strategy.

Either keep banging on endlessly about brexit because it is the correct strategy to follow, or, accept it and move on because that is the most appropriate course to take. Leave out the childish 'say you're sorry first'.

Can you imagine what it would be like if the leader of the Labour Party defined Labour's post-brexit policy on that criteria?

I think you want the EU thread ———>

All your thread are belong to us.

It isn't really an echo chamber, it just reflects the membership. On average (and please don't waste your time pointing out that you are poorer and less well-educated than the average) the people on here earn above the national average and are considerably better educated than the average Briton. I seem to remember that a ridiculous proportion of regular posters have second degrees or doctorates. Take those things together and look at the research and you will find that we were much more likely to have voted remain and pretty likely to be centre-left politically. So that is what you see in the threads.

I think you want the EU thread ———>

All political/semi-political threads lead to brexit.

onewheelgood - I completely agree with your observation concerning STW's demographics. What I disagree with is the suggestion that it doesn't make STW an echo chamber.

What you describe is in fact the central reason, imo, why STW has strong echo chamber tendencies.

I don't think this place is strictly speaking a echo chamber as different opinions on lots of subjects are aired; but I would say it appears that some of the noisier posters are guilty of trying to make every thread about politics and then the circular arguments ensue.

Mark made some interesting points earlier in this thread which I took to mean there are many more STW members that don't post than do. There are also I think many posters that will only post on some subjects and actively avoid others. I was a reader/ observer/ lurker for many years before ever responding to a post. I am still a very infrequent poster, but do feel part of the STW community because I read a lot of content (and now pay a subscription to try to help keep this place alive). There are many reasons why I don't post much, one being I find it hard to give concise responses!

As a reader this place at times feels like watching an interesting emotional documentary and at times like watching a bad soap opera!

I have minimal interest in politics, I know many will correctly say how important it is to our daily life, but if I'm honest I find it boring and depressing much of the time. My view of modern politicians is they are all blighted by the cult of personality. MP's discussions and interviews seem to consist of misinformation, half truths, Point scoring for egos sake, pile ons, cliques, circle jerks, playing the man rather than the ball, long held grudges, sneering, back biting, defending your 'mates' then stabbing them in the back ( or am I describing politics threads on STW 😀).

I'm rambling, so to get to a point it seems to me its only really the politics, religion and some parenting 'Chat' threads that bring out the worst in some posters. The majority of other threads are informative, educational, uplifting, humorous and entertaining. Some threads are even brave, poignant and life affirming.

People post for a variety of reasons and have a multitude of motivations for doing so. I don't really understand why people post solely to intentionally wind people up or bait people to get a rise out of them, but maybe that's entertainment for some or emotions get the better of them.

STW forum is a product of its demographic, and there is a reasonable assumption that is predominantly white middle-class middle-aged male. If that's true it would always benefit with more diversity in all those areas (not sure how that can be achieved easily).

Ultimately though it's the thread starters, posters and moderators that make this place what it is, which imo is a great place, and the big hitters and the noisy, confrontational, acerbic, annoying, frustrating posters are all part of that greatness.

Yawn - the same ten attempting to dominate this and a number of other threads.
It's clear they're completely lacking in self-awareness as their tedious posts demonstrate their only interest is in their own views.
Another manifestation of their lack of self-awareness is that the never ending verbiage is a huge turn-off for most members.
As for 'big hitters' - if only; verbosity and frequency of posting is nothing more than a sign of inadequacy.

Yawn – the same ten attempting to dominate this and a number of other threads.

They may be dominating them because they are the only people with the stamina to be bothered with them. Others are welcome to join in but they don't for whatever reason so it is left to the same ten.

The thing that clearly causes issues is that those ten have history between them so as soon as one user posts something another user will argue the toss about it just because they don't like them from previous encounters. In real life you probably just wouldn't interact with someone you clearly don't get on with but that doesn't seem to happen on forums. There are users on here that I don't like because of what they have said/what they stand for so I just ignore them.

If they can get the top five threads to basically be the same few saying the same things about the same subject do they win a prize?

I kind of love that TJ has unwittingly created a thread that basically epitomises the classic pattern of ST forum debate. It starts off with a reasonable debate over the actual point in question with a refreshingly broad spread of contributors before getting quite nuanced, it's sort of agreed that nothing is agreed.

There's not much more to say. The thread is effectively roadkill, a sort of bloated dead badger lying motionless at the side of the disinformation superhighway. At which point a small group of large, fluffy vultures descend and start picking over the remnants.

Once they've stripped the last, stringy, shred of relevance from the carcass, they stop, look around and start squabbling endlessly over the fading memory of the last really good bit of roadkill they found, it all descends into a fluffy vultures flapping and pecking at each others eyes scenario.

Meanwhile everyone else has moved on up the road and the whole sorry thing is witnessed only by the odd passing traveller who pauses, looks at the whole menagerie of squabbling carrion crows, shakes head and moves on. On a really good day, a mod with a shotgun shows up, blows one of the vultures to pieces and the rest fly off. Until the next one. Is that an echo chamber? Or just deja vu?

Is that an echo chamber? Or just deja vu?

Neither. It is just a few people who won't let it go/have to have the last word to win at the internet.

Maybe each thread should have a max time of 24 hours so anything useful can be said and then it is locked. May just introduces a bit of 'speed arguing the toss' for some, especially as the counter gets towards 24 hours and make the game more fun.

There’s not much more to say. The thread is effectively roadkill, a sort of bloated dead badger lying motionless at the side of the disinformation superhighway. At which point a small group of large, fluffy vultures descend and start picking over the remnants.

Once they’ve stripped the last, stringy, shred of relevance from the carcass, they stop, look around and start squabbling endlessly over the fading memory of the last really good bit of roadkill they found, it all descends into a fluffy vultures flapping and pecking at each others eyes scenario.

Meanwhile everyone else has moved on up the road and the whole sorry thing is witnessed only by the odd passing traveller who pauses, looks at the whole menagerie of squabbling carrion crows, shakes head and moves on. On a really good day, a mod with a shotgun shows up, blows one of the vultures to pieces and the rest fly off.

That is by far and away the best, most graphic description that encapsulates STW. Bravo Sir, bravo.

Great to see the returning banned once again bringing joy to the forum under new and sometimes appropriate psuedos.

So this place might be an echo chamber, or equally might not be an echo chamber, it definitely smells of boys, and may just be better summed as an enabler of narcissists.

it definitely smells of boys,

🙂  Probably its main characteristic?