Echo chamber?

We ofter hear comment about the same few who turn up and ruin threads. Do they know they are doing it? Anyone care to name them?

I've absolutely no idea how you ruin a thread with a set of opposing arguments or broader analysis.

Hey ho.

There is a lot of insults thrown about which IMO is the end of a debate. Xyz is a *, Tories are *, Brexit voters are stupid.

It’s pretty immature imo

I have to agree with this. I get the reasons why this government is so despised, but the casual abuse and pile ons for anyone who might want to support the government position is disappointing - it either scares off anyone or immediately pushes things to the abuse. And that makes it a centre/left echo chamber.

I'm not sure it's intended, but it's how it appears.

Luckily, the debate and infighting among the left wingers provides a distraction

To go back to the politics and left right

Yes the politics thread are dominated by those basically leftish it UK terms ( which includes what would be the centre right in the rest of europe and communist / liberal in the US)  But I don't see anything of the left in the current labour party.  Its become a centre right party

I meant more in the general tone where what to me is a centre right view ( in the european context) is considered the norm.  You are poor unless you earn over £60 000 pa etc.  Perhaps cozy middle class might be more accurate?  Away from the politics thread I see what is to me a right wing view as the consensus

I’ve absolutely no idea how you ruin a thread with a set of opposing arguments or broader analysis.

Really?  Both you and I are guilty of this but I often only see it in retrospect.  Battering away making the same point repeatedly and appearing to refuse to listen to the alternatives

Maybe those that find this a left wing echo chamber might consider that possibly it's just a reflection of broader society where recent polling of voting intention amongst 18-35 year olds has hit a historic low of just 2% support for the Tories for instance. Thank god.

it either scares off anyone or immediately pushes things to the abuse. And that makes it a centre/left echo chamber.

A big part of the problem is its very difficult to provide a factual basis for a feeling, explaining why you're right/left leaning to a non like minded crowd is like trying to explain why you're a dog person to a cat person or why you love your partner but not your audiences. It's incredibly difficult to do, even in person let alone with all the nuance of text. Especially when the person sat opposite genuinely thinks you're wrong.
Add to that that a post to actually explain my views on Brexit would be pages long and it's not going to work, so you give a precis of your opinions and then get told you need to prove them as if an opinion is the area of a square or something that has an empirical answer.

So you give up, because clearly you're on a hiding to nothing.

A huge variety of views…..

Maybe, but not when it comes to politics.

+1

Very narrow political spectrum on here, which is probably why I like it!

Really? Both you and I are guilty of this but I often only see it in retrospect. Battering away making the same point repeatedly and appearing to refuse to listen to the alternatives

My God, you're almost confessing to being vaguely self-aware...

Are you feeling OK? Need a lie down?

😉

I've just had a nap ta 🙂

and then get told you need to prove them

Yes, when this starts it gets old very quickly. The request to do so is always so that the requestor can try and unpick it with countless counter argument "links" that no one ever reads. You could be a flat earther and provide countless links to evidence and the debate would still go nowhere.

You could be a flat earther and provide countless links to evidence

Probably not 😉

Its not an echo chamber for me, if it was, you lot would all be heavily tattooed, beardy singlespeeders with niche bikes and liking of extreme music.

Whereas most seem to be vanilla middle of the road bifflers with a passion for battery bikes and geary suspended nonsense.

So I come on here to see the norms in their natural habitat " with virtual David Attenborough narrative" going on in my head.

"here, we see the desperate mating display of an sad males, past their prime, trying to impress a single female of the mountain biking species, by virtue signalling with plumage made from a cut up guardian newspaper" etc..

politics wise it can be very middle of road, slightly whiny, softy lefty, piffle, with the odd spike of frothy right wing bile, that gets shut down by the "big hitters".

Its basically all the nerdy spods from school that used get ****ted for being wet, having a chance to pile on those that used to rough them up a bit, whilst the rest of the world just carries on un-phased by the views of some pale, male and stale folk that pedal bikes a bit.

Battering away making the same point repeatedly and appearing to refuse to listen to the alternatives

It depends what you mean by 'listen' to be fair, by virtue of reading a post that person has 'listened' to it. They don't need to suddenly change their position to have heard it.

@tazzymtb wins the internet for today 😁

The politics effect is just that no educated person under 60 votes conservative. This forum is basically educated people under 60. QED.

If you want to find Tories, go to a bingo hall.

I’ve absolutely no idea how you ruin a thread with a set of opposing arguments or broader analysis.

Doesn't particularly have to be counter arguments, as TJ said it can be supporting arguments but just repeating them over and over and over and over. Or death by word count, etc., and its near cousins, death by a million quotes and death by a thousand links.

That said - there may be some mitigation to this. Too many people in my opinion now read the first few posts, decide they're going to respond and go straight to reply without assessing the debate that has already happened. Leading to two things - it sounds like they're repeating the same thing over and over because others already said it, which can also feel like a pile-on if these posts are to refute or counter a contentious one from some time ago. Secondly, because people do that, many recent posts are not read and considered in the debate and so they get restated, not specifically to reiterate the point but as a means of bumping their point back to the top so it gets read in the first place.

FWIW there's a few on here with whom I largely don't agree but I'd very much like to go to the pub, sit and discuss a lot of the topics on those threads with over a beer but I tend to not return to a thread after their second (identical 😉) post on a given topic,it's a shame but it's the upshot of it being a medium completely lacking nuance and subtly.

some pale, male and stale folk that pedal bikes a bit

Well, that bit is very true, for 90% of posters.

But Echo Chamber? You could post any answer to any question, or opinion of your own, and you are guaranteed to have someone disagree and argue with you... whether it's something worth arguing about or not! So probably not an echo chamber, even if not very diverse.

Are you serious? Anything remotely politics based is famous for it.

A politics thread usually goes thus:

- "OMG isn't Brexit/the Tories terrible!"

Followed by numerous posts robustly agreeing. The moment a different opinion is expressed, doesn't have to even be a contrary opinion, they all round on the user as a troll in a big display of pious outrage/virtue signalling righteousness. They do this because they know 'trolling' is against the rules of the forum and so hope to have the user banned as punishment for having a different opinion.

Seems to be a wider issue tbh, the creeping authoritarianism of the left.

Outside of politics though this forum is an amazing place.

@tazzymtb nails it 😂

If you think this is an echo chamber, just go and find the Sun / Express on Facebook and read the comments under any news article...

Seems to be a wider issue tbh, the creeping authoritarianism of the left.

Is that what they call it now when lots of people don't agree with you?

If it is an echo chamber I'm happy as it lets me know that I'm not alone.

You could post any answer to any question, or opinion of your own, and you are guaranteed to have someone disagree and argue with you…

In fairness there's a few cases where one user could post someone else's opinion verbatim and the owner be along to disagree with it promptly.

My facebook is an echo chamber for sure.  Everyone on there ( well bar 3 out of 400) have very similar political views, similar world views and so on.  If i want a reality check on something its pretty useless.

If i ask for views on something on here I will get a variety of views from a variety of world views and of political views and I find that valuable

I will also get pulled up for woolly thinking / posting which keeps me on my toes

Sure we are missing the far right politically on here but the centre right is well represented as is the centre left and true lefties

I use the political compass in the sense of EU norms - the UK is well to the right of most of europe.  I see little difference between the labour party and such centre right groups as the CDU in Germany.  What is considered centre left here would be centre right in european terms

If you think this is an echo chamber, just go and find the Sun / Express on Facebook and read the comments under any news article…

Absolutely. I'm sure you're right. Echo chambers aren't unique to stw.

Tazzymtb has us down to a tee. That was brilliant. Contains a sort of venom I'd usually only reserve for disc braked road bike users.

Jambourgie

they all round on the user as a troll

Thats not just true of right wing opinions.  Someone accused Ernie of trolling the other day.  I've been accused of it as well

Yup - I like Tazzys analysis as well and it dovetails neatly in to how I see it.

I do not feel at all part of the consensus on here.  IMO the consensus in general is waaaaaay to the right of me and I am only centre left or in Ernies words " some sort of wishy washy pale pink liberal"

Tazzymtb’s post above should be in the Wikipedia description of this place…

A quite magnificent description 😂😂

I didn't say 'right wing opinions' tj. I said 'different'.

That kind of illustrates my point: if you have a different opinion, you're 'right wing'.

I missed that.  sorry.

“woke” I’m hazier on. What’s it mean?

It means “being aware of racism.”

Quite how it’s supposed to be an insult I’m not sure, but here we are.

Well done you, using a decade out of date definition to paint me as a racist.
Go ask the average person on the street today what woke means and race will figure very little.
Social justice virtue signalling is to me what woke is. Lefty biased for sure, but it's own distinct thing set apart from genuine left leanings.

The tragedy of wokeism, is that it's going to push more voters to the right.
Perfect example is the recent gender madness in the Scottish government.
It's certain to push some voters to vote tory. In Scotland. Where the vast majority of us detest tories and all they stand for. It's ****ing heartbreaking.

I had a quick read back through the original covid thread to posts dating from around the time of Mar-20 to Aug-20. Lo and behold - when the Tories were bounced into doing the right things by the inescapable reality bus hitting them, the majority of posts were supportive. OK, some reasonable moaning about how long it had taken, but I would say STW was actively pro-government at that point. Same with, mostly, vaccine uptake, from what I've seen.

So, basically, when the government are acting in the best interests of the country they seem to get a pretty good time on here. That it takes something like covid for them to do anything in the common good isn't really the fault of STW.

And FWIW, I am obviously only talking about the bare-bones social distancing and lockdown policies here - not the subsequent revelations or spin-offs like track and trace and the alevels fiasco.

Is this the thread about ebikes?

Where the vast majority of us detest tories and all they stand for.

Does that include Douglas Ross' and the Scottish Conservatives' views on the gender thing?

Is this the thread about ebikes?

Plenty of motorcycle forums for those people to frequent.

We all get this, right? If you post something and you get a disagreement in response then it's NOT an echo chamber. That's the opposite of an echo chamber. There is no debate/argument in an echo chamber.

Its basically all the nerdy spods from school

Yes! the heavy metal fans!! He's right you know 😆

Thats not just true of right wing opinions. Someone accused Ernie of trolling the other day. I’ve been accused of it as well

Whereas no-one has ever accused me of trolling. Good at it aren't I 🙂

I got Mark to join the debate!  I am so proud!  I feel vindicated!  do I get a prize?

I had a quick read back through the original covid thread to posts dating from around the time of Mar-20 to Aug-20. Lo and behold – when the Tories were bounced into doing the right things by the inescapable reality bus hitting them, the majority of posts were supportive. OK, some reasonable moaning about how long it had taken, but I would say STW was actively pro-government at that point. Same with, mostly, vaccine uptake, from what I’ve seen.

It's a bit like the left/right thing, everyone's authoritarian, as long as it's authority over "those" people.

Bankers bonuses - cap 'em
Driving licenses - not issued until 30 and revoked at 55
Income Tax - 100% at £5 over whatever I earn
Number plates for bikes - HOWVERYF*&%£*!DAREYOU

Same with liberalism:

Equal rights for you, and you, and you, but not you as I consider you deviant. And definitely no free market economics.

do I get a prize?

Life-long membership without the option.

We all get this, right? If you post something and you get a disagreement in response then it’s NOT an echo chamber. That’s the opposite of an echo chamber.

You realise that the above part of your statement is a long way apart from the second (correct) bit don't you.

There is no debate/argument in an echo chamber.

If you feel unable to voice an opinion, to offer disagreement or arguments that's still an echo chamber. If you voice a different opinion and you're punished, castigated, pilloried, excommunicated or ostracised, it's an echo-chamber.
If different opinions are dismissed out of hand, ridiculed, derided and otherwise devalued it's an echo chamber.

It's only not an echo chamber when that disent is debated, considered, discussed, allowed and most importantly encouraged to exist along side the prevailing one.

TINAS.

I don't think so.

The point I was trying to make was that when our excuse for a government do actually do something for the common good, I think it is usually pretty well received on STW.

The issue is that this happens so rarely (especially post-2016) that they get a rightfully rough ride on here - not that they give a shit what the likes of the majority of STW posters think. Because... well see post above about educated under-60s.

I wouldn't want to be part of a community that thinks, for example, that Brexit is a good idea because it patently and objectively isn't. It just isn't.

The point I was trying to make was that when our excuse for a government do actually do something for the common good, I think it is usually pretty well received on STW.

Only if the majority agree. (and else where you'd have found plenty who didn't)

We've been trying to define and identify the common good since we had a sense of societal existence. We've not manged it yet and I doubt, for all its wonders, STW is any more possessed of this knowledge than the millennia of human beings before us or indeed after us.

The point I was trying to make was that when our excuse for a government do actually do something for the common good, I think it is usually pretty well received on STW.

It was, until there was a rumbling of unofficial guidance that you could only go out for 1 hour on your bike and have a scotch egg.

At which point it seemed like the majority decided that the rules were to prevent people having gatherings with their mates in their gardens like yobs, rather than having gatherings with their mates in the woods.

We all get this, right? If you post something and you get a disagreement in response then it’s NOT an echo chamber. That’s the opposite of an echo chamber. There is no debate/argument in an echo chamber.

STW is any more possessed of this knowledge than the millennia of human beings before us or indeed after us

I think it is a fair bet that it is closer than Pistonheads, though.

It's not an echo chamber it's individuals shouting into the void.

zilog6128
Full Member
We all get this, right? If you post something and you get a disagreement in response then it’s NOT an echo chamber. That’s the opposite of an echo chamber. There is no debate/argument in an echo chamber.

@Mark no, what you’re describing is an epistemic bubble. An important part of the definition of an “echo chamber” – at least from the modern, media perspective (no idea about a real, acoustic one 😃) is that opposing opinions are voiced, but they are then immediately rubbished/insulted/quashed by the majority in order to (seemingly) re-inforce the validity of the prevailing opinion within the echo chamber

prove it.

😉

prove it with links. lots of links. and at least 6 paragraphs of text.

That's not what I understand to be an echo chamber and not the definition applied to the way our social media networks tend to be echo chambers. The echo is the sound our our own opinions being validated and 'echoed' back at us by the members of our own networks ergo, we are fooled into thinking that our opinions are the consensus/majority opinions. The mistake we make in those situations is conflating that echo with the wider views of society. Hence why so many people were shocked at the Brexit vote result as we'd simply not been exposed to the opposite views in sufficient quantity and fell into the trap of believing the 'echoes' we were hearing were the views of the majority. They weren't. We were simply hearing our own views echoed back within our own bubble or 'chamber' due to the way the algorithms matched us up with similar views within our social networks.

prove it with links. lots of links. and at least 6 paragraphs of text.

Okie dokie

......opposing opinions are voiced, but they are then immediately rubbished/insulted/quashed by the majority.....

But then you also get echo chambers which are so sterile that you don't even get that.

The obvious example is the Brexit thread. According to a fair few people on here Brexit is still a hugely important and topical issue, and yet the Brexit thread hardly ever gets any new posts these days.

I can only assume that Brexit thread contributors got bored with the relentless echo of their own veiws.

It’s not an echo chamber it’s individuals shouting into the void.

At themselves! 👀

An echo chamber creates the impression that there is only our opinion and that it's held by the vast majority. I don't think anyone really believes that, we know there are others. But we strongly believe ours to be right.

We're more like a West Ham pub. For West Ham fans, so we can sing our West Ham songs and wear our West Ham colours. We know there's a Millwall pub just down the road, but we don't want them in here, and don't want to go in there. Reality though is that if as long as they don't come in and demand to be allowed to sing their songs and make us all join in, and instead just sat down and debated football, we'd happily listen to them, take the piss a bit and get along.

Apart from a few blokes who are determined any Millwall fan must be beaten up out of principle. Or the Millwall raiders determined to rush in, shout and pick a fight, and then rush out having caused maximum fuss.

And for that reason we can't have a nice chat.

IMO an echo chamber like my facebook is there are no dissenting voices.

Here some claim the dissenting voices are shut down and that has some validity - and its just not the right wingers that get shut down.  any unpopular opinion does.  This does not make it an echo chamber and I (despite appearances maybe) actually do cherish the multitude of opinions on here.

No chance that you get an easy ride with an unpopular opinion.  Often some thought provoking opposing responses.  Many of my opinions go against the consensus and I have been utterly slated for them.

Not an echo chamber IMO.

I generally don't agree with many of you lot particularly on the political/related front. LOL!

But there might be some topics with people having similar opinions which may sound like echo chamber but generally not related to politics.

However, I find most people are inconsistent in their political views. i.e. hate Tories to the core but support Boris for war in Ukraine .... Oh C'mon (a phrase I learned from my German friend when he is disappointed, LOL). Aren't you suppose to march for "Stop the War" or are you advocating "Go for war" hhhmmmm ?

No chance that you get an easy ride with an unpopular opinion.

Like the time I said Kirroughtree was boring and had no flow.

@Mark no, what you’re describing is an epistemic bubble

That is the point where, if I was in Mark's shoes, I would have just pulled the plug on the whole thing. Luckily he seems to have more patience.

I can only assume that Brexit thread contributors got bored with the relentless echo of their own veiws.

I reckon they got bored with something relentless.

But then you also get echo chambers which are so sterile that you don’t even get that.

Well everyday's a school day as they say, apparently that is called an epistemic bubble, didn't know that.

In epistemic bubbles, other voices are not heard; in echo chambers, other voices are actively undermined.

Edit: I did read zilog's post, I even quoted it, I just didn't understand that it was describing the Brexit thread.

Would it be better or worse if we had a 'Like' button?

I get the point that some are making that it is not a true echo chamber (though we are having a good old non-echo chamber argument about what an echo chamber actually is!), but I'd be interested to know what topics you think there are where 80-90% of contributors are not in general agreement. Not the what tyre threads (though I suspect the statistics are probably similar there too!), but really the political and broader societal discussions.

The football pub analogy above is pretty good - most arguments, when considered against the full range of possible views - are the equivalent of two fans of the same team squabbling about who their team should buy in the next transfer window.

I’d be interested to know what topics you think there are where 80-90% of contributors are not in general agreement.

Chain waxing...

I’d be interested to know what topics you think there are where 80-90% of contributors are not in general agreement.

Chain waxing…

Not a chance, 90% of the contribution will be TJ alone, helmet wearing on the other hand...

Oddly I think you probably get more diverse discussions on topics where there are actual right and wrong answers, I mean, we could run 2+2=4 to at least a dozen pages of debate I reckon.

Oddly I think you probably get more diverse discussions on topics where there are actual right and wrong answers. I mean we could run 2+2=4 to at least a dozen pages of debate I reckon.

See plane on treadmill!

I’d be interested to know what topics you think there are where 80-90% of contributors are not in general agreement.

funnily enough most of the politics threads.  Despite being apparently a part of the lefty shouty bunch actually I hardly see any agreement between the shouty lefty bunch.  Its all a bit peoples front of Judea

Its all a bit peoples front of Judea

Over to you Binners

5 minutes on Twitter reminds me what a wonderful place STW is.

If someone posts something controversial on here they can be sure of being challenged on it and that's how it should be.

Here, posts have consequences (relatively speaking) and I think that's what's lacking on social media in general and why it's so bloody toxic.

funnily enough most of the politics threads. Despite being apparently a part of the lefty shouty bunch actually I hardly see any agreement between the shouty lefty bunch. Its all a bit peoples front of Judea

So what specific political topic....I'm struggling to think of a specific one. I suppose Corbyn Labour vs Starmer/Blair style labour is about as close as I can think to a proper split in group think - ut I'd regard that as the equivalent of the West Ham fans bickering about their best formation rather than properly diverse opinions. Constitutional monarchy vs republic being another.

5 minutes on Twitter reminds me what a wonderful place STW is.

a massive amen to this. Twitter is bloody horrible.

So what specific political topic

Any of them.  those shouty lefty types are often at odds.

We have me the pale pink wishy washy liberal, Ernie the two bob trot, Binners the Chorltonite liberal handwringer who thinks he is a lefty, Dazh the apprentice two bob trot and Rone the magic money tree man

All said with affection chaps before you expel me from the group 🙂

Any of them. those shouty lefty types are often at odds.

We have me the pale pink wishy washy liberal, Ernie the two bob trot, Binners the Chorltonite liberal handwringer who thinks he is a lefty, Dazh the apprentice two bob trot and Rone the magic money tree man

All said with affection chaps before you expel me from the group 🙂

Amusing, but not actually answering the question. A properly meaty specific topic where fundamental opinions are existentially different....with like 52% of posters thinking one way and 48% another. You disagreeing with everyone else and posting 48% of the contributions doesn't count! 😉

If someone posts something controversial on here they can be sure of being challenged on it and that’s how it should be.

If may challenge that comment - why?

Why is it necessary, or more importantly useful, to always challenge a controversial opinion?

Why not accept that someone might have a very different opinion to yours, eg, Crocs make great casual footwear?

I often feel, as you might have noticed, that challenging the generally accepted consensus can be more useful, if not more interesting.

If the existing consensus is never challenged how does change come about?

And if something is controversial it is quite possibly not worth challenging.

Edited

Instead of a ban or warning you should be sentenced to a week on pistonheads.
Mention your a keen cyclist.

Convert - the Starmer thread?

That makes ‘us’ counter to the voting public in 2019?

Well, to the part that has a direct influence on the outcome. There was a majority that did not vote Conservative at the last election. A tiny proportion has selected two leaders since then.

The problem arises when the 'winners' don't ensure the 'losers' are represented.

ernielynch
Free Member

If someone posts something controversial on here they can be sure of being challenged on it and that’s how it should be.

If may challenge that comment – why?

Why is it necessary, or more importantly useful, to always challenge a controversial opinion?

As you point out, it's perfectly valid to challenge my comment which is kinda, exactly the point I was making.👍

Social justice virtue signalling is to me what woke is

I thought I had a reasonable idea what "woke" is supposed to be, but now I'm not sure.

Twitter is bloody horrible.

My Twitter feed is generally fun and banter. Maybe it's down to who I follow.